| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
01/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 01 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, Mr Latham.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, my learned friend Mr Coward has asked me to read
parts of a few statements and I will do that now before
we close our case. my Lord , I make it clear, they are
contained within the various statements (inaudible) the
prosecution of the defence, but we had not intended to
read them, but I am more than happy to read them. I will
give you the page references, my Lord. 6126 A, part of
the statement of Detective Constable David Mason, statement
dated 17th August he is currently based at Thorpewood
Police Station, Peterborough. "on Saturday, 17th
August 2002, I was on duty in plain clothes engaged in
operation Fincham. At 5 o'clock in the morning I arrived
at Huntingdon Police Station after having been briefed
by phone. A male by the name of Ian Huntley had been arrested
on the suspicion of the murder and abduction of Holly
Wells and Jessica Chapman." He had been tasked to
seize the clothing of Huntley after he had been booked
into custody about 6 a.m. "I was in the custody suite
at Huntingdon Police Station, I entered cell F1. This
cell had already been set aside for Huntley and I prepared
several brown paper bags, white slippers and a paper sheet
to place on the floor of the cell on which Huntley would
stand when he removed his clothing. at about 6.35 am I
entered cell F1 with Constable Dear and Huntley where
I asked Huntley to stand on the paper sheet on the cell
floor. He seized the following items of clothing DMX 4,
a green, red, white and grey striped T shirt, DMX 5 and
6, the left and right brown and black athletic US boots.
My Lord, those are those boots which were produced on
Friday and shown to a witness and, indeed, we had photographs
of them, being suede and leather boots; DMX7 and 8, a
pair of black socks and a pair of blue Addidas tracksuit
bottoms, DMX 9, and a pair of grey boxer shorts, DMX 10.
I am asked to read the statement of Detective Constable
Jonathan Ward, page 7067, my Lord. On Monday, 19th August
2002, I was on duty in plain clothes when I attended a
briefing at Ely police station. The briefing was held
by Sergeant Multon who outlined the task of a full search
of 61 Parsons Lane in Littleport. my Lord, that is the
home of Kevin Huntley, the father of Ian Huntley. at 8
p.m. a Police Sergeant Lacey , this is at the address,
handed me a left and right size 9 boot exhibit DPL 1 and
2, a blue T shirt DPL 3, and a pair of socks, DPL 4 and
5 and a pair of blue trousers, DPL 6. my Lord, we have
not seen those, my learned friend has asked me to read
that and I understand----
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
did you miss out DPL 2, or did you say that?
MR LATHAM
I said a pair, my Lord, DPL 1 and 2.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
MR LATHAM
those were handed to a Constable Goodridge, the exhibits
officer on Operation Fincham. Then part of the statement
of a Martin Norman Flack, who is a police Constable 8038,
my Lord. he was engaged in searching 5 College Close on
Monday, 9th September. this was part of the long process
of the search of the house. he asked me to read out that
on that day, 9th September, seized from a mattress on
the bed in bedroom 1, was a pair of dark blue trousers,
exhibit MNF 90. my Lord, that pair of trousers is referred
to in the next statement I read, which is at page 8018,
Alison Brennan "I am the Managing Director of a company
called Kingston Recruitment. in October 1999, we employed
a male by the name of Ian Nixon. he was taken on to work
at Kimberley Clarke in Barton on Humber. He was issued
with two navy sweatshirts and three pairs of trousers,
all navy, three navy polo shirts and a pair of safety
boots, colour black. Kimberley Clarke issue their staff
with their own uniform, all which is marked with the logo
Kimberley Clarke and usually their name. However, all
of our staff who work there are issued with our clothing
which has no logos on it. in October 2001, Ian was issued
with two further navy polo shirts and two pairs of navy
trousers plus one pair of safety boots. I have been shown
by Detective Sergeant Nisbet, a photograph album. That
shows the front and rear views of two pairs of Harpoon
blue trousers, referred to as MN 90 and TFL 1. I can state
those trousers are the same as the ones issued to Ian
Huntley whilst he worked for Kimberley Clarke. One of
those pairs is the pair referred to as having been seized
off the bed, my Lord. Finally, I'm told I may summarise
parts of this, the statement of a forensic scientist as
page 6019, my Lord, John Francis Taylor. "I hold
an honours degree in pharmacy, which involves specialisation
in pharmaceutical chemistry and pharmacology. I hold a
doctorate in philosophy which, together with a post doctoral
Fellowship involved research studies on the distribution,
metabolism and excretion of certain drugs in animals and
man. Since 1970 I have been employed as a forensic toxicologist
at the Metropolitan Police forensic science laboratory
which is now merged with the forensic science service.
In this respect I specialise in the analysis of biological
fluids and tissues for alcohol, drugs and poisons. the
circumstances of the case from information provided I
understand the following 1, on 4th August 2002 two schoolgirls,
namely Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, were reported
missing from their homes in Soham; 2, the extensively
decomposed remains of two bodies found in Lakenheath approximately
two weeks later were identified as those from the missing
girls. 3, samples of tissue from the bodies was obtained.
Of course, that was during the post-mortem, my Lord. 4,
Ian Huntley the caretaker at Soham Village College and
his girlfriend, Maxine Carr, are suspected of being implicated
in the murder of the two girls. Various tablets, medicines,
and a bottle of drink were retrieved from 5 College Close"
and he gives the exhibit labels of those items. He then
says a list of drugs prescribed to Maxine Carr for various
illnesses was given to him. it is normal prescribed medicines,
my Lord, for treatment of various ailments. The purpose
of the examination was to visually identify the tablets
and medicines seized from the house and to determine whether
or not the drink in SLB42 contains a common sedative drug
and to determine whether the body tissues from the two
girls contained traces of a common sedative drug. My Lord,
the sample of drink did not and the body tissues did not.
There was one box of proprietary drugs, JDP 8 which contained
56 tablets of (inaudible) used in the treatment of depression.
The prescription container was made out to Ian Huntley
and the dispensing date was 13th August of 2002, none
of the tablets had been taken. His conclusions are as
follows the above findings in relation to the prescribed
drugs, together with the information provided concerning
drugs prescribed to Maxine Carr, does not suggest that
Huntley and Carr may have had access to potent sedative
drugs. The findings in relation to the drink was that
it has not been laced with alcohol or a sedative drug
and the body tissue shows in the period immediately prior
to their deaths Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman had not
been administered Methadone, bensodiazepene, tranquilising
and sedative drug, barbiturate sedative drugs, opiate
drugs, cannabis or cannabis resin or chloral hydrate,
and goes on to list a whole tranche of sedative drugs
and says that they are not. In view of the decomposed
nature of the bodies I could not not say whether or not
they had been administered alcohol, anaesthetic volatile
liquids like ether and chloroform, or the sedative drug
GHB shortly before they died. There has been a new set
of admissions.
MR KHALIL
can I hand out 8, to be put at the back of the grey folder,
the transcripts of the covert recordings we dealt with
on Friday, the back of the folder behind the interview
transcripts. when we have managed to do that, if I can,
I will hand out further admissions. I think the Jury have
been putting those in the front of the green folder, eight
admissions No hairs from either Holly Wells or Jessica
Chapman recovered from 5 College Close; no blood from
Holly Wells or Jessica Chapman recovered from 5 College
Close; no fingerprints from Holly Wells or Jessica Chapman
recovered from 5 College Close, save for those on the
box of Celebration chocolates (reference made to that
already); no hairs from either Holly Wells or Jessica
Chapman recovered from the Ford Fiesta, XXXX XXX; Transcript
edited by Sky News no blood from either Holly Wells or
Jessica Chapman recovered from the Fiesta; no fingerprints
from Holy Wells or Jessica Chapman were recovered from
the Fiesta. two addresses In August 2002, Maxine Carr's
mother, Shirley Capp, lived at (inaudible) Cromwell Road,
Grimsby. At the same time Maxine Carr's grandfather lived
17 Yarborough Road, Keelby, Grimsby. My Lord, that formally
closes the Crown's case.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
thank you very much.
MR COWARD
my Lord, that being the close of the Crown's case can
I indicate I intend to call Mr Huntley to give evidence,
but I would be grateful for an opportunity to speak to
him before he starts his evidence.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
yes. would you go, please, ladies and gentlemen, I will
have a word or two with counsel. how long do you want?
MR COWARD
half an hour, my Lord. Hearing adjourned - will resume
shortly
MR COWARD
my Lord , I am very grateful for the time . I call Mr
Huntley. Mr Huntley, would you come forward, please. (Ian
Huntley, sworn) Examined by
MR COWARD
. .
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley whilst you are in the witness box you will
be asked a lot of questions. if at any stage you do not
follow a question, do not have a go at answering it just
ask me again to put the question in a different way or
a more simple way and I will try to do so. could I have
your full name, please?
IAN HUNTLEY
Ian (inaudible) Huntley.
MR COWARD
and until August of 2002 had you been living at 5 College
Close, Soham, since I think November/December of the previous
year?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR COWARD
perhaps I can put the question more simply. when did you
move to Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
January 2002.
MR COWARD
January 2002? we have heard about the interview you had
for the job with Mrs Bryden as one of the people who interviewed
you. you remember the interview?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
when you moved down in January 2002, into the house which
had been done up for you, did Maxine come with you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
for how long had you and Maxine been an item; when did
you first meet?
IAN HUNTLEY
January or February of 1999.
MR COWARD
January/February 1999?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
and which towns had you lived in together between meeting
her and coming to Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
Grimsby, Scunthorpe, (inaudible).
MR
COWARD
was there a period of time before you moved into number
5 when you were lodging with your parents when the house
was being done up?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
was that at Littleport?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
I will come back to Littleport later in the story. We
have heard from a number of witnesses as to what your
job was and what your title was; could I just get one
thing out of the way to begin with Mrs Bryden told the
Members of the Jury that during your interview for the
job, because of previous experience they had, you were
asked some very specific questions about how you would
deal with a situation if it arose. what was the situation
that was put to you?
IAN HUNTLEY
she asked what I would do in circumstances of having problems
with a female student.
MR COWARD
how did you answer the question?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I told her I would report it.
MR COWARD
did it actually happen once you had taken on the job?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it did.
MR COWARD
I don't want to know the name of the girl but what did
you do about it?
IAN HUNTLEY
at first I spoke to the girl and told her I thought it
was inappropriate, and then it persisted and so I spoke
to Ruth, one of the caretakers; she said she would walk
round the site with me to see for herself what the situation
was she agreed with me that this girl was following me,
missing lessons to follow me and she was looking for excuses
to try and get me on her own. On one occasion she told
me she had left her PE kit in a locker so I (inaudible)
Ruth and asked her to go over to the young lady to go
over to the locker with her to get the PE kit, but it
wasn't in there. Ruth reported that back to me and I raised
the issue with my immediate superior, Margaret Bryden,
and filed a report to that effect.
MR
COWARD
were the senior staff able to stop this from happening
any more?
IAN HUNTLEY
they did call the student into the office and dealt with
the matter.
MR COWARD
I want to come on now to August of 2002. We know from
the evidence we heard that Maxine's mother lived in Grimsby
and Maxine went up to Grimsby, and we have heard she was
there on the 4th August . How did she get up to Grimsby;
did you drive all the way?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I had to go into work that morning to clear some flood
damage with Ruth. I should start at eight o'clock, so
I think we set off from Soham about 6.30 in the morning
to arrive at my father's house in Littleport at 7 o'clock,
as my mum and dad were going down to Grimsby and they
agreed to take her.
MR COWARD
you took Maxine from Soham to Littleport and your mum
and dad took her up to Grimsby?
IAN
HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR COWARD
when was she expected to come back?
IAN HUNTLEY
the following Saturday.
MR COWARD
so she would have had a full week up in Grimsby; that
was the plan?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
once she had got there did you keep in touch with each
other by telephone?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, we did.
MR COWARD
I want to come now to Sunday, 4th August; the college
is closed, there are no children in class there. you had
had the flood, again July, were you working at weekends
at all or just Monday to Friday during the school holiday?
IAN HUNTLEY
we did work weekends.
MR COWARD
you did work weekends?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you have a dog?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, we had a black German Shepherd called Sadie.
MR COWARD
Did something happen with Sadie that day, Sunday, 4th
August?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she ran off after another dog.
MR COWARD
was she in a particular condition on the day she ran off?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR COWARD
why did she run off?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was in season.
MR COWARD
she was in season. Mr Huntley, we are just checking the
microphone.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
they were just not in the right place can you move it
so it is near the witness.
MR COWARD
was this something Sadie had done before?
IAN HUNTLEY
she had done it once before in the two years we had owned
her.
MR COWARD
was she in season that time?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was, yes.
MR COWARD
roughly what time was it you realised Sadie had run away
from home?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had been intending to take her to Mildenhall the Sunday
afternoon and before I did so I took her on to the school
field to make sure she went before she got to the car.
That would have been about one o'clock time.
MR COWARD
what did she do once you got to the field?
IAN HUNTLEY
she saw this dog in the distance and she ran after it.
MR COWARD
so did you actually get to Mildenhall that day at all?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
Sadie having run off, what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went over the field in the direction that she had gone.
She went through the area where there was a whole (inaudible)
laid. I went as far as there and she had disappeared from
view. I spent most of that afternoon on and off looking
for her.
MR COWARD
in the end was it a case of you finding her or did she
come home?
IAN HUNTLEY
she returned of her own accord like she had done the time
before.
MR COWARD
we also heard mention of a video that you took out to
watch on that Sunday. about what time did you get the
video as you remember it?
IAN HUNTLEY
it would have been when I was out in the car looking for
her, did a drive round the main roads in Soham. I would
think it would be between two and three o'clock, maybe
a bit later.
MR COWARD
what time did Sadie eventually come home?
IAN HUNTLEY
about six o'clock time.
MR COWARD
about?
IAN HUNTLEY
6 o'clock.
MR COWARD
6 o'clock? .
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't be specific.
MR COWARD
what sort of state was she in?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was in a real mess.
MR COWARD
was there anything in particular you noticed about her
appearance?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she was, very with the, muddy, and she had these,
she had these sticky things stuck to her fur.
MR COWARD
people have called them burs, is that a word you know,
sticky things in her fur. So she is filthy, a mess, she
has these sticky things - what did you decide to do the
then?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was going to bath her, before I did that I was going
to brush her down to get most of the dirt off her.
MR COWARD
clean as much off as you can outside, then bath her and
then what?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR COWARD
once you had bathed her were you going to dry her somehow?
IAN HUNTLEY
with the hairdrier.
MR COWARD
we know that there is a toilet downstairs but there is
no bathroom downstairs, is that right?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
the bathroom, and we have seen it on photographs, and
we have all been to the house, is upstairs?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you try to get as much off as you could outside before
you did anything with the bath, or did you do something
with the bath and then try and do something with her outside?
IAN HUNTLEY
I put Sadie into the downstairs toilet and I went upstairs
to run a bath for her when I had finished brushing her.
MR COWARD
why did you put Sadie in the downstairs toilet?
IAN HUNTLEY
because she often rubs up against the walls and she was
absolutely filthy and (inaudible).
MR
COWARD
she goes into the downstairs toilet, you go up, run some
water into the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
having run some water in, where did you go next?
IAN HUNTLEY
back downstairs.
MR COWARD
what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I collected my car keys off the small table near the door
and got Sadie out of the toilet area and took her on to
the doorstep. I opened the boot of my car, put the brush
in, in readiness for taking her to Mildenhall because
I knew she would get into a mess.
MR
COWARD
the dog brush is in the boot of the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
you had to unlock the car, is it your habit to lock the
car?
IAN HUNTLEY
to lock the car? .
MR COWARD
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
so you had to unlock your car to get the dog brush to
get as much dirt off Sadie as you could? whereabouts were
you, having got the brush when you were brushing Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was knelt down on the doorstep, directly behind the
car.
MR COWARD
does Sadie have a collar?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, we have her on a choke chain.
MR
COWARD
how were you holding her when you were outside by the
doorstep?
IAN HUNTLEY
my arm round.
MR COWARD
some of the witnesses have said in evidence that you had
said to them you were washing the dog outside. is that
right?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I said cleaning.
MR COWARD
cleaning.
IAN HUNTLEY
in some cases I did brushing.
MR COWARD
there you are with Sadie, brushing Sadie, what happened
next?
IAN HUNTLEY
I heard voices and I stood up to look and there was two
girls in Manchester United tops stood to the front side
of my car.
MR COWARD
did you in fact, see where they came from to get up to
where you were?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
were you able to work out the route they are likely to
have come to get to where you were?
IAN HUNTLEY
I thought that it was probably likely that they came from,
approached from the direction of the Lodeside building.
MR COWARD
why?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't really know, it was just an assumption I made.
MR COWARD
just an assumption you made? did you know by sight either
of the girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't recall them at the time. It wasn't until I had
spoken to Maxine sometime later that she told me that
on one occasion I had actually cleared them off the field.
I clear many children off the field.
MR COWARD
you told them off because they were on the field when
they shouldn't have been?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, didn't tell them off, I just asked politely if they
would leave - like I do with all children.
MR COWARD
but at time the girls were outside your house, did you
remember then that you had seen them before?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
what were they wearing?
IAN HUNTLEY
they was wearing red Manchester United tops with I think
Vodafone across the front.
MR COWARD
Vodafone on the front?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did either of them speak?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
can you remember which of the two it was who spoke or
did they both?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was Jessica.
MR COWARD
Jessica spoke? what did she say?
IAN
HUNTLEY
she asked how Miss Carr was and she said 'Miss Carr' because
that's - I found it quite funny because I weren't used
to hearing Maxine referred into that way.
MR COWARD
a little louder.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
quite funny - I'm not not used to hearing Maxine referred
into that way.
MR COWARD
did you say anything in reply?
IAN HUNTLEY
I just said she wasn't very good, she had gone away for
a few days to relax. I assumed from what they said they
must have been in her year so I just said that that she
didn't get the job.
MR COWARD
what, if anything, was said about her not getting the
job?
IAN HUNTLEY
by who?
MR COWARD
by the girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
they just asked me if I could tell her that Jessica and
Holly had called round and to tell Maxine - or Miss Carr
- that they were sorry and they hoped to see her soon,
words to that effect.
MR COWARD
we know at some stage from our chronology that on the
4th August you made a telephone call. If we look at our
chronology we can see the time of that call. It is page
5, Members of the Jury, 18.24, 6.24 pm, Carr mobile to
Huntley mobile, call lasting two minutes and 13 seconds.
Do you remember that call?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe I was on the doorstep when I took that call.
MR COWARD
was that before you saw the girls?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes, it was.
MR COWARD
so that call finishes round about 6.26/6.27. We see from
the next item on the schedule that the girls are seen
going towards the sport centre at 6.28 and 30 seconds.
also on the schedule we have "18.31, Carr mobile
text message sent." do you remember that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I do remember sending a text.
MR
COWARD
was that a text from you to Maxine or from Maxine to you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I think it was Maxine sending a text to me.
MR COWARD
what was it about, as you remember it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe she said something about, something about not
making her feel bad about going out that evening with
her mum.
MR COWARD
in the earlier conversation, 24 minutes past 6, had there
been any talk of what Maxine was going to do that night?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR COWARD
what has she told you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe she has said, I'm not really certain but I believe
it was along the lines of she thought she might be going
out with her mother that evening. She didn't say it was
a definite thing.
MR COWARD
how did you react to Maxine saying that she was going
out that Sunday night, planning to go out?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wasn't overly happy about it.
MR COWARD
in what you said to Maxine did you get across to her that
you weren't happy about her doing it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember the words that I said but I would think
so, yes.
MR COWARD
did that lead to the text message that Maxine sent you,
saying words to the effect, don't make me feel bad about
going out?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
that's the sequence of events as I understand it. One
general question at that point Mr Huntley, did this conversation
with Maxine, and the text message you got back, have any
effect on how you behaved in relation to the two girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean.
MR COWARD
when the two girls arrived outside your house, how would
you describe your mood in relation to Maxine?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would say that I was slightly annoyed.
MR COWARD
you were slightly annoyed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did the fact you were slightly annoyed make any difference
to the way you treated the two girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, not at all.
MR COWARD
so, you had the conversation about Maxine, you have told
the girls she was disappointed she hasn't got the job,
she has gone away for a few days. and you said you would
pass on the message to her when she got back, that the
girls had asked after her. Did you know at that time on
that Sunday about a box of chocolates that was later found
in your house?
IAN HUNTLEY
I knew that Maxine had received many gifts from pupils
at her school. Didn't know specifically who they were
from.
MR COWARD
we have also heard about a card that was done for Maxine
which Maxine actually demonstrated on television. Did
you see that card? was it of any significance to you before
the press started coming round?
IAN
HUNTLEY
before the press started coming?
MR
COWARD
before the press case?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wasn't actually aware of that card until Maxine came
home. That was the first time I had seen that card. Sorry
can I rephrase that, that was the first time, I'm not
sure if I had seen the card, I think Maxine put some cards
up, I wasn't aware that was specifically from Holly and
Jessica.
MR COWARD
so you had the conversation with the girls. what happened
next?
IAN HUNTLEY
Holly had, she put her hand up towards her face on a couple
of occasions and on one occasion as the conversation was
finishing I noticed that there was a small amount of blood
on her hand and small blood smear under the bottom of
her nose.
MR COWARD
so what was said or done about that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I asked her if she would like some tissue for her nose
to which she replied "yes, please".
MR COWARD
what did she say?
IAN HUNTLEY
she said "Yes, please".
MR
COWARD
so what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I said (inaudible) I will go and get you some tissue,
MR COWARD
Could you repeat that? A lot of us didn't get that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I said plonk your bums on there, I will you some tissue.
MR COWARD
plonk your bums there?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
where were you pointing to?
IAN HUNTLEY
the rim of my boot; my boot door was still open from when
I put the brush in.
MR COWARD
did Holly do that?
IAN HUNTLEY
both Holly and Jessica did. I had gone in the house, I
left them there until I came down; they were sat on the
rim of the car.
MR COWARD
where did you get the tissue from?
IAN
HUNTLEY
from the upstairs bathroom.
MR COWARD
what did you do with Sadie? you have been brushing her
outside when the girls arrived - when you went to get
the tissue what, if anything, did you do with Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
I secured her in the downstairs toilet again so she couldn't
make a mess of the house.
MR COWARD
you come downstairs with the tissue. Did you give to it
Holly?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did it do the trick?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry.
MR COWARD
did it stop the bleeding?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
so what happened next?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was threatening rain and if anything it looked like
it was getting worse. I wouldn't say it was a bad nose
bleed but there was a bit of blood there. I asked if they
wanted to come inside and put wet tissue on the nose.
MR COWARD
did they agree to come inside?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
where, having got inside, did the girls go?
IAN HUNTLEY
we went into the living room.
MR COWARD
into the living room? Mr Huntley it may be suggested in
due course that you had a plan to lure the girls into
the house. did you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
why did they go in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
I suggested it, they agreed and it was just purely to
remedy the nose bleed.
MR COWARD
so you go to the living room did you all stand up or all
sit down, if so, who sat where?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I remained standing. Holly sat at the end of the sofa
closest to the TV end of the living room and Jessica sat
at the end closest to the door.
MR COWARD
one question - and I will come back to it again - is was
there a wash basin in the downstairs toilet?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
obviously there would be a wash basin in the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
there was a sink in the kitchen.
MR
COWARD
a sink in the kitchen. why did you go upstairs to get
the tissue rather than get some from downstairs or from
the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
tissue was generally kept upstairs, generally there was
tissue in the downstairs toilet but Sadie was secured
in there.
MR COWARD
what was the state ot kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
the kitchen was clean and tidy except the sink was full
of pots when Maxine is not there I'm not very clean with----
MR COWARD
you had not got round to the washing up?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
so you are in the sitting room. tell us what happened
in the sitting room?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went upstairs, left Holly and Jessica sat on the couch,
I went upstairs to the bathroom. Tore some toilet paper
off the roll and I wet couple of pieces and squeezed them
gently so they weren't dripping wet. I took them downstairs,
took the tissue from Holly, and gave her I think it was
two wet and two dry.
MR COWARD
what happened next?
IAN HUNTLEY
Holly's nosebleed didn't seem to be getting any better.
There was some conversation in the living room. I remember
something specifically about (inaudible) a game lying
out with the Play Station 2. I can't remember if they
said it was a good game or whether they had heard it was
a good game.
MR COWARD
you had some conversation about a game that you could
play on Play Station 2?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, the game was actually out with the Play Station and
I told them that they was too young to play that game.
it is an 18 CERT.
MR COWARD
did the three of you stay in the sitting room?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
where did you go?
IAN HUNTLEY
We went upstairs to the bathroom.
MR
COWARD
how did that come about?
IAN HUNTLEY
Holly's nose wasn't getting any better and I thought it
would be a good idea to have soaking cold water applied
to the nose. I have very basic first aid knowledge and
I believe that's what you do on a bleeding nose.
MR COWARD
did you go upstairs?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did Holly go upstairs?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did Jessica go upstairs?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. yes.
MR COWARD
Was it a case of inviting Jessica to go with you or did
she just decide to tag along?
IAN HUNTLEY
she came of her own accord.
MR COWARD
did you go to the bathroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
by this time, was there any water in the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, there was water that I had run for Sadie earlier
on.
MR COWARD
so the water is in the bath, to bath Sadie. You had not
at this stage actually bathed her?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
how full was the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was I would say it was under half full, probably 6
to 8 inches of water.
MR COWARD
I will come to what happened later, at this time were
you planning, when you had washed Sadie, to stand by the
side of the bath and hold her and wash her?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm sorry can you repeat?
MR COWARD
how were you planning to wash Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
in the bath.
MR COWARD
yes. but where were you going to be when you washed Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would usually stand at the side of the bath with Sadie
in it.
MR COWARD
I will come to what actually happened in due course. We
know from the photographs we have of the bathroom, the
bath is on the left as you go in. the taps are up at the
far end by the window and next to the bath is a wash basin.
If you look at your screen now I think we can see that
particular picture. It is not immediately obvious from
that photograph, how far does the wash basin stick out
over the bath, as it were, away from the wall?
IAN HUNTLEY
the left-hand edge of the wash basin actually hangs over
the side of the bath.
MR COWARD
all three of you are in the bathroom. did all three of
you continue to stand up when you walked in or what?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I suggested that they sit down on the edge of the
bath.
MR COWARD
who sat where?
IAN HUNTLEY
Holly sat, Holly sat near the sink and Jessica she was
sat closer to the door end.
MR COWARD
once the two girls sat in those positions, what did you
do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I put some cold water into the sink.
MR COWARD
were you actually using Kleenex-type tissues, or were
you using toilet paper?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was using toilet paper.
MR COWARD
what did you start to do?
IAN HUNTLEY
tear toilet paper off the roll and soak it in the cold
water in the sink.
MR COWARD
where was the toilet roll normally kept?
IAN HUNTLEY
usually on the cistern, I'm not sure, I can't remember
if there was a toilet roll holder on the wall but if so
I would always put it on the cistern.
MR COWARD
we have another photograph now which is a view into the
bathroom. so I think we can see actually on that photograph,
can't we, a roll of toilet paper?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
is that one sitting on the cistern?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what sort of flooring is it in the bathroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
linoleum wood effect flooring.
MR COWARD
were there any things on the linoleum-effect flooring?
IAN HUNTLEY
I think it is a green bath mat.
MR COWARD
a green bath mat?
IAN HUNTLEY
and there is probably some weighing scales in there as
well; there is, near the toilet.
MR
COWARD
You run some water, you wetted some pieces of toilet paper.
you have - take us on, what happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
I passed the tissues to Holly. When she had a wet tissue
in her hand she would lean forward to the sink and put
the tissue against her nose and when the tissue had dried
a bit she would tilt her head back. Jessica asked if she
could if she could use the toilet and I said yes. I took
the tissues off Holly and replaced it with a dry tissue.
MR COWARD
where did you and Holly go?
IAN HUNTLEY
we went to the main bedroom. Holly sat on the edge of
the bed and as she sat down on the corner of the bed a
drop of blood did actually drop on to the sheet.
MR COWARD
when you say the sheet, what sort of bed clothes did you
have in your bedroom? did you have sheet and blankets
or a duvet?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was a sheet and duvet. I can't remember because the
weather was warm weather, it was just a base sheet and
a cover sheet or whether there was actually a quilt, I
can't remember. could I have another drink of water, please?
MR COWARD
As we know from our visit to the house that's the bedroom
straight ahead at the top of the stairs of number 5?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR COWARD
the main bedroom. When Jessica had finished, what happened
then?
IAN HUNTLEY
me and Holly stood up - sorry Holly stood up - I was already
stood, Jessica came out on to the landing, and directly
in front of us there is what I can only describe as a
spare room. the door was open and Holly asked why the
room was so bare.
MR COWARD
was that the room that has no carpeting in it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
and did you explain why it was so bare?
IAN HUNTLEY
I said that we didn't use that room, it was just a spare
room. I can't - one of them asked, I really can't remember
which one, which way the window looked or something, or
what it looked out on, words to that effect. I said "Have
a look", which they did.
MR COWARD
there is another picture coming up on your screen now.
That's the room you are talking about, and that's the
window out of which you can look to see where you are?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did the girls do that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you go in with them into the room or just stay outside
while they went in?
IAN HUNTLEY
I stayed on the landing.
MR COWARD
were they there long?
IAN HUNTLEY
seconds.
MR COWARD
what happened next?
IAN HUNTLEY
we returned to the bathroom.
MR COWARD
having got back to the bathroom, what was the plan, what
was going to happen, as you understood it?
IAN HUNTLEY
the same as previous. although Holly's nose didn't look
to be bleeding very much by now, (inaudible) dry tissue.
MR COWARD
did the girls go into the same position as they had been
in before or different positions?
IAN
HUNTLEY
the same positions.
MR COWARD
take us on from there, please?
IAN HUNTLEY
I - I went to pass Holly some more tissue. as I did -
I'm not really sure how it happened - I sort of turned
and either slipped or lost my footing or something and
sort of went forward in the direction of Holly.
MR COWARD
was this the first time, Mr Huntley, that anything like
that had happened with this bath mat?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
terribly sorry to interrupt. You have not actually said
anything about the bath mat. What he said was I slipped
and lost my footing, I sort of went forward in the direction
of Holly. so I think there is a prior question. sorry,
go on.
MR COWARD
can you help us as to what made you move in that fashion?
IAN HUNTLEY
to pass the toilet paper to Holly, as I had done on a
couple of occasions prior to Jessica needing the toilet.
MR COWARD
but what was different about your body movement on this
occasion after you had gone back into the bathroom from
before?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know if there was anything different.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I think what you want to ask is, does he know why he slipped.
is that the question?
MR COWARD
it is a very good question, my Lord, thank you.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you tell us why you slipped, if you know?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know.
MR COWARD
on that day, in that bathroom, was there anything on the
floor on top of linoleum
IAN HUNTLEY
there was, I think, a green bath mat and bathroom scales.
MR COWARD
bath mat and bathroom scales? had you on any previous
occasion experienced anything with the bath mat?
IAN HUNTLEY
only when getting out of the bath.
MR
COWARD
what had happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
we- you would often put one foot on to it then the bath
mat would slip from underneath you, so what I would resort
to in the end was actually pushing the bath mat away so
I went straight on to the lino floor.
MR COWARD
although that had happened previously, do you have any
actual memory of what caused you to slip on this day?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it happened very quickly.
MR COWARD
Holly is on the bath, near to the wash basin; Jessica
is on the bath further up. where did your body go?
IAN HUNTLEY
in the direction of Holly.
MR COWARD
do you have a memory as to whether you came into physical
contact with Holly?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure if I did or didn't.
MR
COWARD
what happened to Holly? did she stay where she was sitting
on the bath edge?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, she fell backwards.
MR COWARD
are you saying that you saw her fall backwards, or that
she must have fallen backwards from things you saw later.
Did you actually see her fall backwards?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR COWARD
what did you hear after she began to fall backwards?
IAN HUNTLEY
I heard a splash.
MR COWARD
you heard a splash? was Holly going into the bath planned
by you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, no it wasn't planned.
MR COWARD
was Holly going into the bath expected by you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm sorry can you repeat that?
MR COWARD
were you expecting that it might happen before it happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
after you heard the splash, what is the next sound you
remember hearing?
IAN HUNTLEY
that would have been Jessica.
MR COWARD
what was the sound you were hearing?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was- she was screaming and shouting "You pushed
her", over and over.
MR COWARD
"you pushed her." Do you have
any idea how many times it was said?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
was it a few times or a lot of times?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know. I just - I just kept hearing her screaming
"you pushed her".
MR COWARD
was it true? had you pushed her?
IAN
HUNTLEY
do you mean purposely? no.
MR COWARD
maybe there are two questions there. I will separate them
had you deliberately pushed Holly into the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
maybe that accidentally you knocked Holly into the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's possible.
MR COWARD
possible? how loudly was Jessica saying or shouting "you
pushed her"?
IAN HUNTLEY
loud. It is only a small room.
MR COWARD
was it a normal pitch of loud voice or higher or lower
than that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure of the tone. it was just like a screaming,
probably higher pitched than normal. I would say higher
pitched than normal.
MR COWARD
what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
when Holly had fell into the bath I was stood there waiting
for some movement or for her to get up and didn't, and
there was no movement. I just panicked and froze.
MR COWARD
by the time you looked in the bath and saw Holly and saw
there was no movement, was Jessica already shouting or
screaming "you pushed her" - did that happen
later?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wasn't actually aware of the fact of Jessica getting
up or walking over. I wasn't aware of the fact she had
done until I had her screaming.
MR COWARD
what effect - what Jessica was saying, and how she was
saying it - what effect did it have on you and your mind?
IAN HUNTLEY
I couldn't think. I mean, stood here it's, it's logical
just to pull somebody out of the bath, especially when
they are not moving. I couldn't - no logical thoughts
- I couldn't think.
MR COWARD
had you had any first-aid training?
IAN HUNTLEY
basic first aid training. I had basic first aid training
in the Air Cadets and also when I was at Kimberley Clarke.
MR COWARD
did any of that come into your head when you were in the
bathroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
no. Nothing. no.
MR COWARD
try as best you can, Mr Huntley - in words - to describe
what was happening in your head?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I'm not sure. I was just, I was trying to think.
MR COWARD
were you able to think?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what, if anything, was stopping you from thinking?
IAN HUNTLEY
I think it might have been a combination of two things.
I think panic and the screaming.
MR
COWARD
panic and the screaming? I want to go, before we go on,
back to your understanding of the college rules in relation
to your house and any children who were being taught at
the school. What was your understanding of the position
of pupils at the school and number 5?
IAN HUNTLEY
pupils shouldn't really have been in the house, although
our next door neighbour, Liz, she has a daughter and she
would often come round to play with Sadie. She is about
14, I think. I did say to Maxine I weren't overly happy
about that.
MR COWARD
at the time when Holly had the nosebleed outside and didn't
seem to stop it, that you invited the two girls in, at
that stage did it occur to you that it perhaps was not
a good idea or did it not occur to you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, not really.
MR COWARD
by the time you were in the bathroom and Holly is in the
bath and not moving, what was your state of mind about
having had the two girls in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't say that that thought had come directly into my
mind. all I know is that I was very panicky.
MR COWARD
panic and the screaming you said earlier. what did you
do next?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went over to Jessica. I went over to Jessica.
MR COWARD
was she still in the bathroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was stood near the doorway, or in the doorway.
MR COWARD
was she still screaming?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she was.
MR COWARD
what do you remember doing?
IAN HUNTLEY
I put my hand over her mouth.
MR COWARD
one hand - more than one hand?
IAN HUNTLEY
I clearly remember one. I don't know if I placed the other
hand on her to restrain her or - I don't know I'm just-
all I can say is that I clearly remember putting one.
I'm not sure what I did with the other hand.
MR COWARD
can you remember which hand of yours it was?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know.
MR COWARD
whereabouts on her, the hand you remember putting on her,
did your hand go?
IAN HUNTLEY
over her mouth.
MR COWARD
what were you trying to do?
IAN HUNTLEY
stop her from screaming so that I could think.
MR COWARD
now it has taken maybe five or ten minutes questions on
the moment Holly went backwards into the bath up to now
where you put your hand on Jessica. are you able to help
the Jury at all as to how long in real time it took from
the moment Holly started going backwards to the moment
your hand touched Jessica's mouth?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
can you give us any sort of picture of the interval of
time between Holly going backwards and the hand on Jessica's
mouth?
IAN HUNTLEY
not honestly, no.
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