01/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 01 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03
MR COWARD
if you can't you must say so. take us on from there. A
hand, at least one hand has got to Jessica's mouth, what
happened then?
IAN HUNTLEY
at some point it hit me what, what I should be doing,
what I should do.
MR COWARD
it hit you what you should have been doing?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what was it that hit you? what should you have been doing?
IAN HUNTLEY
to get Holly out of the bath.
MR COWARD
up to the moment when it hit you to get Holly out of the
bath, had you any memory of your hand or hands being anywhere
else on Jessica other than her mouth?
IAN HUNTLEY
I just clearly remember holding her mouth.
MR COWARD
and that's the only clear memory you have?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
so while that is going on, you had this thought that you
have to attend to Holly?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
so what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I let go of Jessica and -.
MR COWARD
the next question or questions may be important, Mr Huntley,
and I will try to put them as accurately as I can. when
you let go of Jessica what happened to Jessica?
IAN HUNTLEY
she fell to the floor.
MR COWARD
was there a gap of time between you letting go and her
falling to the floor?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
did you know at that instant why it was that Jessica had
gone to the floor?
IAN HUNTLEY
to be honest, it didn't really register that much. my
main priority now was to get Holly out of the bath.
MR COWARD
so what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
went over to the bath and pulled Holly out of the bath,
placed her on the floor at the side of the bath.
MR COWARD
you say you went over to the bath and pulled Holly out
of the bath. Whereabouts had Jessica fallen?
IAN HUNTLEY
in the doorway.
MR COWARD
all in the bathroom or part in the bathroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
part.
MR COWARD
feet in the bathroom or head end in the bathroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
feet.
MR COWARD
so, you go to the bath and you get Holly out of the bath.
as you went into pick her up to get her out of the bath
did there seem to be any movement then?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
having got her out of the bath, where did you put her?
IAN HUNTLEY
on to the floor at the side of the bath.
MR COWARD
did there seem to be any sign or movement then?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
so there you are in the bathroom with Holly on the floor
with no sign of movement, Jessica half in the bathroom,
half out. could you hear any noise coming from Jessica
at all?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what were you thinking at that instant?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure what I was thinking. I'm not sure what I
was thinking.
MR COWARD
how would you describe your state at that instant?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know.
MR COWARD
what did you do next?
IAN HUNTLEY
I checked Holly's wrist and her neck for a pulse.
MR COWARD
you checked Holly for breathing and her neck for a pulse?
IAN HUNTLEY
I checked her wrist and her neck for a pulse.
MR COWARD
any pulse?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what about Jessica?
IAN HUNTLEY
up to that point I hadn't really been aware of Jessica,
I hadn't registered that she was lying there even though
she was lying so close to where I was with Holly. But
I became aware of Jessica and I went over to Jessica.
MR COWARD
what test did you do on Jessica?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I checked her wrist for a pulse and her neck and I put
my right cheek, I think it was first to her mouth to feel
for any faint breath. I have never really been that hot
at checking pulses when I was learning first aid.
MR COWARD
any response?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what is your next memory after that?
IAN HUNTLEY
sat in the corner on the landing just looking at Jessica.
MR COWARD
do you remember actually going to sit in the corner or
are you saying I remember being in the corner?
IAN HUNTLEY
I remember being in the corner.
MR COWARD
looking at Jessica?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
is that part of the landing carpeted?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you notice anything?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had been sick.
MR COWARD
you had been sick?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
can you help the Jury as to how long you were in the corner
on the landing, in time?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure.
MR COWARD
can you help the Jury as to why you were in that particular
spot?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know why I chose that particular spot. That was
just where I sat.
MR COWARD
did you try on either of the girls any resuscitation?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
do you know why you didn't?
IAN HUNTLEY
Holly was, had gone a strange colour. Jessica I felt for
signs of - I felt none and to be honest I weren't quite
sure what to do.
MR COWARD
if these identical events were to repeat again what do
you think you would do now?
IAN HUNTLEY
stood here I know what I would do now.
MR COWARD
which is?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would have pulled Holly out of the bath straight away.
MR COWARD
and what else?
IAN HUNTLEY
probably tried to get her to consciousness.
MR COWARD
anything else thinking about it now that you could have
done or should have done?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, because if I had pulled Holly out of the bath and
got her to regain consciousness everything would have
been okay.
MR COWARD
so, for a period of time you are sitting in the corner
on the landing, you had been sick. Do you have any memory
of the moment when you actually were sick?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
you just remember seeing it later?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what did you then decide to do?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I remember thinking about what to do and I was thinking
of calling the police but I couldn't believe what had
happened and I kept thinking how do you explain this to
the police? If you can't believe what has happened yourself,
how are you going to expect the police to believe what
you say? at that time things weren't clear in my head,
I weren't clear on what had happened, how it had happened.
MR COWARD
were you, at this time, when you were thinking about whether
you should call the police, did you have a clear idea
in your head what had caused Holly to die?
IAN HUNTLEY
at that time?
MR COWARD
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I think I did.
MR COWARD
did you have a clear idea in your head what had caused
Jessica to die?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
did you call the police?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
did you call any other emergency service?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
thereafter, not having called the police and not having
called any other emergency service, was it something you
thought about again later?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was a decision that I regretted.
MR COWARD
when did you start to regret it?
IAN
HUNTLEY
early hours of Monday morning.
MR COWARD
if you had the time over again, Mr Huntley, what would
you have done?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wouldn't even be in this situation now if I could have
that time over again.
MR COWARD
because, why?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I would have pulled Holly out of the bath.
MR COWARD
so, you realise you are on the landing. There is Jessica
very close to you and Holly on the floor in the bathroom.
What happened next?
IAN HUNTLEY
I decided against calling the police.
MR COWARD
sorry could you repeat that?
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
"I decided against calling the
police."?
MR COWARD
so what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I knew that I had to get the girls out of the house.
MR COWARD
at the time that you knew you had to get the girls out
of the house, did you have a plan in mind as to what you
were going to do?
IAN HUNTLEY
the only thing I knew was that I had to get them into
my car, get them out of the house. That was all I knew
at that time.
MR COWARD
so what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went over to Jessica, there was part of a mobile phone
protruding from her pocket. I took the mobile phone and
looked at it. It was off. I put that into my pocket .
MR COWARD
you said something about a mobile phone. Who had a mobile
phone?
IAN HUNTLEY
Jessica.
MR COWARD
where did you see it?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was protruding part of the way out of her pocket.
MR COWARD
did you pick it up?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
was it switched on or switched off as you recollect it
at that time?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was off.
MR COWARD
off?
IAN HUNTLEY
off.
MR COWARD
you put it in your pocket?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what did you do next?
IAN HUNTLEY
I picked Jessica up and I took her downstairs to the hallway.
MR COWARD
so you didn't take her straight out to the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what did you do then?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went back upstairs and picked Holly up and took her
downstairs and placed her on the carpet at the bottom
of the stairs.
MR COWARD
was it still light outside?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
when you carried them down stairs you have already told
the Jury your idea was to get the girls out of the house
and put them in your car. how long, how much time passed,
between bringing them downstairs and actually putting
them in your car?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would say a few minutes.
MR COWARD
was it still light outside when you put them in the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
which part of the car did you put each of them in, or
both?
IAN HUNTLEY
into the boot.
MR COWARD
what steps, if any, did you take to make sure you weren't
seen carrying each girl out to the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
I moved Holly around the corner of the stairs so when
I opened the door she couldn't be seen from the door.
I opened the door and went outside and had a look and
I couldn't see anybody. I opened the boot of my car and
again as I went back in I had another look.
MR COWARD
was the boot of your car nearer your house than the front
of the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
was either of the girls in anything when got them out
to the boot of your car ?
IAN HUNTLEY
what do you mean "in anything"?
MR COWARD
Were they wearing the same clothes they had walked into
the house in?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
was there anything else on top of their clothes as you
took them to the boot?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
having put them in the boot, you closed the boot lid?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you lock the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
just one last topic at this stage, Mr Huntley. from the
moment you decided that you had to get the girls out of
the house and into your car, could you try to help the
Jury with all the thoughts, not necessarily in any logical
order, all the thoughts that were going through your head
between the moment you decided to do that and the moment
when you locked the car with the two girls in the boot?
what was going on in your head?
IAN
HUNTLEY
between which moments, sorry?
MR COWARD
between the moment you, decided I have got to get them
out of the house up to the moment you had finished getting
them out of the house and you had locked the car, what
is going on in your head?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't think anything was.
MR COWARD
by the time you locked the car had you worked out a plan
of what you were going to do next?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no, I didn't know where I was going to take them.
MR COWARD
are you able to help, in terms of minutes or hours or
by light or dark, at what time it was that you set off
from the college with the girls in the boot?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I had no idea of the time. I had a watch on but, I
suppose I didn't think of looking at it.
MR COWARD
when you set off from number 5, where were you going?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was just driving, didn't have destination in mind.
MR COWARD
were you conscious of choosing a route that might avoid
your car being picked up on CCTV? did that cross your
mind?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I don't know the surrounding area of Soham that well.
I wouldn't know where there is or isn't CCTV to avoid.
MR COWARD
do you remember which route you actually took when you
left number 5?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know, I can't remember the names of the villages
I passed. I know that I passed through Mildenhall to get
to Lakenheath, passing (inaudible) as well and I actually
passed through the village of Lakenheath.
MR COWARD
would that have been the normal route that you would have
taken if you had been going to see your grandma, or if
you were going to Keepers Cottage at Wangford?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it would be your usual route.
MR
COWARD
My Lord would that be a convenient moment?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
it is up to you.
MR COWARD
well we are about to arrive at Wangford. Hearing adjourned
- will resume after lunch
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
afternoon session.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, we reached the stage where you had described
the route that you took to get from number 5 College Close.
As well as having the two girls in the boot, did you take
anything else in the car with you?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I took two bin liners and a petrol can.
MR COWARD
two black bin liners and?
IAN HUNTLEY
a petrol can.
MR COWARD
what colour was the petrol can?
IAN
HUNTLEY
red.
MR COWARD
where did you get it from?
IAN HUNTLEY
from the office of the college, the Lodeside office.
MR COWARD
why did you take two black bin bags?
IAN HUNTLEY
to put the petrol can into and I was, I had also thought
it would probably be a field or somewhere I was going
to put them into.
MR COWARD
you said it would probably be a field you would go to,
did you say?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
and?
IAN HUNTLEY
it would be likely to be muddy and I would put them over
my foot wear, the black bags.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
I think he said it would likely to be muddy, is that what
you said?
MR COWARD
you would put them over your shoes because it was muddy?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what was the petrol for?
IAN HUNTLEY
to destroy any evidence.
MR COWARD
where did you finish up?
IAN HUNTLEY
initially I parked up on a small grass verge which is
on the turning into my father's old house, a place I would
often go and watch the aircraft at Lakenheath.
MR COWARD
is that near Keepers Cottage?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what made you finish up there, do you know?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, just some - I was just driving and that was where
I ended up, didn't have that specifically in mind or anywhere
else.
MR COWARD
so there you are parked on the grass verge close to Keepers
Cottage. How did you finish up down Common Drove?
IAN HUNTLEY
as I was driving down Wangford Road to where I ended up
at the corner of my father's house, I noticed some tracks
on the right hand side when I was sat there, at the base
I decided I would go there, one of the tracks, I don't
remember specifically thinking any one track.
MR COWARD
as you sat there on the grass verge, what thoughts were
going through your head?
IAN HUNTLEY
just what am I going to do.
MR COWARD
what am I going to do. what did you decide to do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I decided to drive to the Drove.
MR
COWARD
had you ever been down Common Drove before?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
apart from the designated viewing area at Lakenheath with
the car park, did you have any other spot you used to
go to, to watch the aircraft at Lakenheath?
IAN HUNTLEY
the other place I have just mentioned, that was a place
where you weren't really supposed to be, a place where
nobody else went, and had a very good clear view of the
aircraft and the hard stands and the runway.
MR COWARD
if you drive past the public viewing area, is there any
sort of notice board there to tell you whether you are
allowed to go further or not?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what does it say?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember the exact wording but something like
"private access only".
MR
COWARD
to get to Keepers Cottage do you have to drive past that
sign?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
is that how you knew where the other viewing area was?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, from when my father had that house.
MR COWARD
so you had never been down Common Drove to use it for
aircraft viewing on any previous occasion?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
so you drive down Common Drove. Is it light still or getting
dark?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is light but the - it's getting, the light is fading.
MR COWARD
are you able to help the Jury as to what sort of time
of night it would be by this time?
IAN
HUNTLEY
at a guess I would say around 9 o'clock.
MR COWARD
so what did you do at the Drove?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I drove down there and looked for a place with not so
much vegetation so I could actually get through.
MR COWARD
we know from photographs we have seen where the bodies
of the girls were deposited. was that the first place
you looked at?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, as I was driving I could see the density of the vegetation
and, yes, that was the first place.
MR COWARD
so having stopped the car what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
got out of the car and went through the vegetation. I
wasn't aware that there was actually a ditch there and
that was when I became aware there was a ditch there.
I took, I went to the boot of the car and opened the boot
and I - I picked, picked up one of the girls, I'm not
sure which one. the bank of the ditch was too steep for
me to carry the girls down so I had to place one of them,
in my arms at the top of the ditch and push her and she
rolled and I returned to the car and did the same.
MR COWARD
up to this stage had you done anything with the two black
plastic bags you had with you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, they were still in the front passenger foot well with
the petrol can in.
MR COWARD
having got the two girls into the ditch, what did you
next do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went down, down the bank of the ditch to see how much
of the track I could see from down there to be able to
be certain they couldn't be seen from the track. I then
went back up the bank to collect the petrol can and I
realised that, I then decided the clothing wouldn't burn
and that there would be carpet fibres. so I went to the
boot of my car and collected the scissors.
MR COWARD
the carpet fibres from where?
IAN HUNTLEY
from the carpet in the house or the boot.
MR COWARD
we could see from the photographs that the carpet in the
boot is not the original fitted works carpet, is it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
when was the carpet in the boot changed?
IAN HUNTLEY
a few months prior to it, I would say a couple of months
after we had the carpet done in the house we used to buy
big cartons of milk with our shopping and they would often
leak on to it and we had had Sadie in there on a couple
of occasions, and whenever she travelled she would have
diarrhoea or be sick or both and that carpet was starting
to smell a bit, so I changed it.
MR
COWARD
obviously on the account you have given, the girls had
been on the carpet downstairs in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
they had been on the carpet which was of identical make
we hear, in the boot of the car?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
so what were you hoping to destroy by way of evidence?
IAN HUNTLEY
carpet fibres, there is dog hairs on the carpet, that
easily attach themselves to things.
MR COWARD
when you put the girls in the ditch were they clothed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
had you disturbed the clothing of either girl before they
went into the ditch?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I only took the mobile phone, that was sticking out
of the pocket. I'm not sure whether I zipped that up or
not after, I'm not sure.
MR COWARD
did you touch either girl or try to, in any sexual way
at all?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, none at all.
MR COWARD
did the clothes remain on the girls once they were in
the ditch?
IAN HUNTLEY
Until I went back down with the scissors to cut them off,
yes.
MR COWARD
how did it come you had scissors with you?
IAN HUNTLEY
they had been in there sometime from when I had cut the
carpet to fit the car?
MR COWARD
you hadn't bothered to take them back in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I think there might have been another pair in the
front of the car as well l because I was going to help
my dad, I gave him some carpet from the school, some left
over carpet and I was going to help him but that never
came about.
MR COWARD
so let me understand this question of footwear what were
you wearing on your feet?
IAN HUNTLEY
it would have been trainers, I had changed into my trainers
after I had put the girls into the boot of the car.
MR COWARD
and when you first went to the bottom of the ditch did
you have anything protecting your trainers?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
when you went back did you have anything protecting your
trainers?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I took the petrol can out of the black bags, separated
the black bags and put my feet into them and tied them
so there was a knot around my legs which covered my feet.
MR COWARD
you have got the black bags now over your trainers so
none of the debris of the ditch would be getting on your
trainers. what was the state of the ditch at the bottom
in terms of how wet it was?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was muddy and wet and there was some water in there.
MR COWARD
what did you do with the petrol can?
IAN HUNTLEY
which point? sorry, I put it on the top of the bank.
MR COWARD
at some stage did you do something with the contents of
the petrol can, with the petrol inside it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I put it into the ditch.
MR COWARD
at the time you put the petrol from the can into the ditch
were the girls' clothes still on?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what did you do - once the clothes were off - with the
petrol?
IAN HUNTLEY
once the clothes were off I went to the top of the bank,
back up the ditch, removed the black bags from my feet
and again put one inside the other and placed the clothing
into the bags and it was at that point that I
MR COWARD
for how long did the fire last?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I don't know. I know it flared. I put petrol, can back
into the front passenger well of my car, put the clothing
into the boot of the car and just drove away as quickly
as I could from there.
MR COWARD
did you have any difficulty driving away - or driving
in there for that matter?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it was very, very muddy. my car, it is only a small
car, and it was struggling.
MR COWARD
as we know, some material was found on the suspension
arm of the car which Mr Moncrieff was of the view tended
to link it towards the drove. you accept you went to the
Drove in that Fiesta?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you ever go back?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, that was the only time I went down there.
MR COWARD
on the 7th August we know that you went to your grandma's
Lilly Gollings' house. Why did you go on the 7th?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wanted to get away from all the police, the press -
I just wanted to get away for a bit of a break.
MR COWARD
and you didn't take the opportunity, whilst you were there,
to go and have look and see what the position was at Common
Drove?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I never wanted to go there again. It was my intention
to stay the night at my nan's but she was asking a lot
of questions about what was going on at Soham with regards
the police and the press. then she put the news on and
I realised I was actually no better off there (inaudible)
Maxine.
MR COWARD
you were no better off at Lakenheath than you were at
Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, so I decided to return home.
MR
COWARD
having done these things on the night of the 4th August,
what were you hoping what was going in on in your head
as to the future?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know, actually. I wanted to tell somebody, and
I tried on several occasions to tell, to tell Maxine,
but I couldn't get the words out. How do you tell somebody
that you are responsible for the death of two girls and
then what happened after that? .
MR
COWARD
so back to the night of the 4th August. You have got the
girls' clothes and the black bags in the boot, you have
got what is left in the petrol can - and where did you
drive?
IAN HUNTLEY
after I left the Drove.
MR COWARD
after you left the Drove?
IAN HUNTLEY
back to Soham. I stopped off at a petrol station on the
way home and I put some, I filled the petrol can and put
some petrol into my car as well. I'm not sure if it was
the Jet Garage at Mildenhall or the Q8 garage on the outskirts
of Soham.
MR COWARD
can I just deal with the mobile telephone? You had put
that in your pocket before you went to Common Drove?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
where, eventually did you put it?
IAN
HUNTLEY
when I had put the girls into the boot of the car, I went
over to Lodeside, that was when I was going to get the
petrol can and the black bags. before I went to Lodeside
office I went to the skip which is situated outside the
main entrance to Lodeside and I put the mobile phone into
there.
MR COWARD
just remind us when is collection day for the skip?
IAN HUNTLEY
Tuesdays.
MR COWARD
is that the same during holidays as in term time?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it is not. In term time we have two collections a
week. we had arranged for a collection on the first week
after the term broke up because the school was getting
a full clean and the black bags would go into there and
then they would be collected at request so a collection
was scheduled for the Tuesday and thereafter it would
have been on request.
MR COWARD
why dispose of the phone at the school?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was just the closest thing to hand.
MR COWARD
you have collected petrol on the return journey, you come
back to the college, what did you do with the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
I parked it in front of my house.
MR
COWARD
about what time is it now?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would think getting on for ten o'clock.
MR COWARD
when we went on the view, the speed of the journey between
Soham and Common Drove was fairly slow?
IAN HUNTLEY
fairly what - sorry.
MR COWARD
fairly slow. how long does it normally take you to get,
say to your Granny's?
IAN HUNTLEY
it varies greatly depending on the traffic and the time
you go. If you go in the daytime when there is traffic,
it can take up to 45, 50 minutes. If you go when there
is very little traffic on the road, 30, 35 minutes.
MR COWARD
so you parked your car. what did you do then? did you
go in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
I- sorry, yes, yes I did go in the house. I collected
the keys to the school, collected the keys to the school
and the petrol can and the clothing out of the boot.
MR COWARD
because you had in your house, did you, a complete set
of keys for almost all the premises at the school?
IAN HUNTLEY
the vast majority of it, yes.
MR COWARD
did you need those keys to do something with the petrol
can?
IAN HUNTLEY
I needed those keys to get into the door which is closest
to the gym changing rooms at Lodeside.
MR COWARD
did you put the red can back?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR COWARD
what had you done ----?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry no at that point I didn't. sorry.
MR COWARD
you didn't at that point?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't at that point.
MR COWARD
the last we heard of Sadie she was in the downstairs toilet
because you are upstairs with the girls and she was dirty.
when you left the house, having put the bodies of the
girls in the boot, did Sadie stay in the downstairs toilet?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, at this point she was still in the downstairs toilet.
MR COWARD
does it follow she was still there when you got back from
Wangford?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
take us through stage by stage as you remember it, what
you did having got back to number 5?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went over to the college. I put the clothing into a
fresh black bag. Got one of the cleaners' bottles, which
is often used for detergent, we had some spares in the
office. I went to the toilet area directly next to the
office and put some water into it. I also collected the
tennis court keys which were on a key ring, with most
of the external gate keys and the hangar keys.
MR COWARD
at some stage it appears that the girls' clothing got
into one of the yellow bins. did you put them there?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes I did.
MR COWARD
when did you do that?
IAN HUNTLEY
Sunday night.
MR COWARD
Sunday night? how did the yellow bin with the clothing
in and the footwear, get to be where it was found?
IAN HUNTLEY
when I came out of Lodeside I took the two empty black
bags that had held the clothing to Lodeside skip and put
them there. I went round to the tennis court gates and
locked those gates and went over to the hangar and used
the hangar keys to unlock the door. I weren't sure if
the, if the hangar was linked up to the fire alarm system,
I knew that it wasn't alarmed, as in burglar alarms and
so I took one of the yellow bins and put it just outside
the doorway of the hangar.
MR COWARD
in the case it was fire alarmed, and you caused the ignition
inside, it would set trigger off the fire alarm?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, if I set fire to the clothing alarm inside the hangar
it would definitely have set the alarm off if there was
one in there.
MR COWARD
where did the fuel come from which you used to set fire
to the items in the bin?
IAN HUNTLEY
the red petrol can.
MR COWARD
did you take the red petrol can back to the office after
you set fire to the clothes?
IAN HUNTLEY
I took the red petrol can, the hangar keys and the cleaner's
bottle back to Lodeside office.
MR COWARD
having poured some petrol on to the cloths in the bin,
did you set fire to it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
how long did it burn for?
IAN HUNTLEY
I only let it burn for a few minutes before I poured water
out of the cleaner's bottle to put the fire out.
MR COWARD
so you poured water on to clothing to put the fire out?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
when you had done that, did you look in the bin to see
what was left?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't recall if I did or didn't.
MR
COWARD
you see, we know, because we have seen the photographs,
that if you take the top of the bin out, the red shirts
are obvious, aren't they? I think we are about to see,
with the help of my learned friend, exactly the photograph
I have in mind. There we are. A number of questions here,
Mr Huntley why did you try to dispose of the clothing
at the college?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not really sure.
MR COWARD
why didn't you make sure that they were so consumed by
the fire as to be unrecognisable?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I don't, I don't think there was much in the way of rational
thinking going on.
MR COWARD
did you ever go back to look in the bin on another day?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
why not?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't want to go anywhere near the hangar.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
do we need the picture any more?
MR
COWARD
my Lord, no.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
didn't want to go back. yes.
MR COWARD
so, having set fire to the clothes and having doused the
fire with some water, what did you do next, as you remember
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I took the bin back into the hangar, the black bag that
had been in it I had placed into a brown bin partially
half in and half out and that was just outside the hangars.
I put that black bin back in situ in the yellow bin. I
placed the bin with the other bins, the yellow bins, locked
the hangar up and took the (inaudible)? in the back to
Lodeside office locking the tennis courts back on the
way.
MR COWARD
the keys for the hangar were actually found at number
5, weren't they ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. MR HOWARD when we come to the appropriate time in
the sequence of events will you tell the Members of the
Jury how it came about that that bunch of keys was at
your house. So you finished with the hangar for the night.
what did you do next?
IAN HUNTLEY
I returned the petrol can, the hangar keys, and the cleaners'
bottle, all back to Lodeside office.
MR COWARD
and then?
IAN HUNTLEY
then I locked the door and went home.
MR COWARD
what did you do when you got home?
IAN
HUNTLEY
had several cigarettes.
MR COWARD
what were you thinking , if you can remember, by this
stage?
IAN HUNTLEY
what have I done?
MR COWARD
"What have I done?" take us on from there what
else did you do the rest of the evening?
IAN HUNTLEY
after I had a few cigarettes, I thought I had better take
Sadie out, she hasn't been out, and so walked past the
resource centre up towards the sports centre and as I
was walking there somebody, a male I believe, approached
me.
MR COWARD
was there any conversation?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, he asked me, it was either had I seen two kids or
had I seen two girls on my travels and I replied no.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, from this point onwards, this is your first
contact with other people at this stage did you know that
two girls in your care had died?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you actually tell those people who were searching
for two girls what you knew?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
why not?
IAN HUNTLEY
I couldn't. I had made the decision not to call the police
and I let things go too far. I didn't know what I was
going say, I didn't know what to say.
MR COWARD
so there - sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was frightened.
MR COWARD
During the course of the night we have heard that there
were other people that came to search, a woman, police
Constable Burton, with her dog, all of them, and what
you tell us now you could have told actually, there's
no point looking here because I have taken them to Wangford
and set fire to them. But you didn't say that to any of
them, did you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
the same reason or a different reason to the later people?
IAN HUNTLEY
the same, the same reason I was trying to think just what
it was that I was actually going say to people. I remember
at some point after I had been with the police officer
that some people had come past my house and I could hear
them shouting Holly and Jessica's name and I went over
to St Andrew's with them and I already knew but I asked
them and they said it was two ten year old girls, one
said- I said what were they wearing they said Manchester
United shirts , I said did one have blonde hair and one
dark and they said yes, and at that point I had told them
that I had actually seen them.
MR COWARD
although you told those searchers that you had seen the
girls did you tell them the truth?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no. no, I didn't. .
MR COWARD
why not?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I was frightened.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
somebody made a noise, sorry?
MR COWARD
I was frightened?
IAN HUNTLEY
for reasons I gave earlier on.
MR COWARD
for the reasons I gave earlier on. A long time ago it
seems now, Mrs Sue Hurrell and her two daughters came
to court to give evidence. Do you remember a conversation
with Sue Hurrell?
IAN HUNTLEY
I do remember talking to Sue Hurrell, yes.
MR COWARD
do you remember what you told her?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes, I told her that I had seen Holly and Jessica at about
quarter to, 10 to 6. I said that they came by my house
and asked how Miss Carr was and I told them that she wasn't
very good and she had gone away for a few days to relax.
I then told her that they had headed off in the direction
of Lodeside Bridge.
MR COWARD
well, that wasn't true?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
did you know at the time you were saying it it wasn't
true?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
the prosecution allegation in this case, Mr Huntley, was
that you murdered each of these girls. Were you telling
those lies because you had murdered them?
IAN HUNTLEY
No. no, definitely not.
MR COWARD
why were you telling the lies?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I was frightened and I couldn't believe what had
happened. I didn't think that anybody else would believe
what had happened either and I hadn't figured out what
exactly it was I was going to say.
MR
COWARD
one question about the time that you gave to various people
at the time you gave the times as to when you had seen
the girls, were you deliberately altering the time or
trying to tell them as you then remember it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was trying to be as accurate as I could be with the
time. it was only later on when I became aware of the
CCTV, I had already checked with my neighbours to see
if they had seen them coming from the Lodeside, Bridgend.
they said that they hadn't, so and I assumed they must
have come from Lodeside, College end.
MR COWARD
we know now that in round figures the CCTV is quarter
of an hour out don't we?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, we didn't know that at the time.
MR COWARD
we didn't know that at the time?
IAN
HUNTLEY
that was why I changed my time to about quarter past,
20 past 6 to fit in with the CCTV time.
MR COWARD
did Sadie eventually get her bath?
IAN
HUNTLEY
she did, yes.
MR COWARD
which day?
IAN HUNTLEY
that was late Sunday night.
MR COWARD
late Sunday night ?
IAN HUNTLEY
I couldn't let her go round the house in the state she
was in.
MR COWARD
was this after you had been out searching with searchers
or before?
IAN HUNTLEY
before.
MR COWARD
did Sadie go in the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
she did.
MR COWARD
was Sadie the only person in the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
at first, yes.
MR COWARD
what changed?
IAN HUNTLEY
sometimes, I mean you say the word "bath" to
Sadie and her tail and ears goes down and she legs it.
if if tell Maxine I'm going in the bath she thinks it
(inaudible) she will do a runner. Sometimes when we actually
get her into the bath, sometimes she'll sit relatively
still and other times put up quite a struggle. on this
occasion she put up quite a struggle.
MR COWARD
what did you do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I removed my trousers and stepped into the bath, one leg
either side of her and my hands supported her.
MR COWARD
were you conscious at the time that anything had happened
to the bath by doing that?
IAN HUNTLEY
do you mean as a result of bathing Sadie.
MR COWARD
yes, as you were bathing Sadie were you conscious that
anything had happened to the bath?
IAN
HUNTLEY
not prior to me bathing Sadie, no.
MR
COWARD
let me take the story forward. Having bathed Sadie did
you go downstairs?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you notice anything about downstairs when you got
there?
IAN HUNTLEY
I heard a dripping sound.
MR COWARD
which room was the dripping coming from?
IAN HUNTLEY
the dining room.
MR COWARD
did you go to investigate?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what was happening?
IAN HUNTLEY
I could see from the light in the hallway that there was
water leaking through and the spotlight unit which has
the spotlights on. It was hanging down from left to right
and there was wires showing.
MR COWARD
was there anything on the dining room table?
IAN HUNTLEY
some water on the dining room table.
MR COWARD
having discovered the water on the dining room table were
you able to work out where it had come from?
IAN HUNTLEY
I could see where it was coming from. I could actually
see from the light in the hallway, it was reflecting on
the water droplet's and I could see it actually dripping.
it wasn't dripping very fast but it was dripping.
MR COWARD
at this stage you had worked out that there must be something
wrong with the bath because the water was dripping through?
IAN HUNTLEY
I already knew what was wrong with the bath at that point
I put my foot through it when I lost my footing bathing
Sadie.
MR COWARD
did you know you put your foot through it at the time
you were bathing Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I put my foot through.
MR COWARD
so did you do anything with the electrics when you discovered
the water coming through the ceiling?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I went to the kitchen, one of the kitchen drawers,
I can't remember which one now, and took out a screwdriver,
a Philips screwdriver, turned off the electrics and moved
the table to one side, took my shoes off and my feet were
getting wet from the water on the carpet. I stood onto
the chair and the chair was also wet and I took the light
fitting down and separated the wires to make them safe
MR COWARD
The wires would just be sticking down from the ceiling?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
but it was safe.
MR COWARD
we know that you were present during a series of searches
that took place at the college that night and that went
on until three, four o'clock in the morning, if not later?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
then at four minutes to seven in the morning, (page 7,
Members of the Jury, of the chronology) you made a telephone
call to Mrs Capp's mobile, that is Maxine's mother. We
know the call lasted one second under five minutes. Did
you speak to Maxine?
IAN HUNTLEY
Maxine's mum answered the phone and she in turn put me
on to Maxine.
MR COWARD
put Maxine on?
IAN HUNTLEY
I tried Maxine's mobile first but (inaudible).
MR COWARD
what did you tell Maxine at this call, round about seven
o'clock in the morning?
IAN HUNTLEY
I told Maxine the same as I told everybody else, and I
told her that they had been round to ask after her and
I told her the events that followed in the night with
regard the police.
MR COWARD
you didn't tell Maxine the truth?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what did you tell Maxine about the identities of the two
girls who had gone missing?
IAN HUNTLEY
I told her in that phone call that their names were Holly
and Jessica and that they had asked after her.
MR COWARD
did Maxine seem to know who Holly and Jessica were, did
it ring bells with her?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
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