| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
01/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 01 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03
MR COWARD
At that stage was there any call for Maxine coming home?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember if there was or wasn't on that particular
call. I know there was on one of the calls that was made
that day.
MR COWARD
the afternoon of Monday, 5th, did you go to Ely?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR COWARD
did you do something with the car?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes, I took it to a place called Ely tyres, I think it
was called.
MR COWARD
I think we know which place it went to. what was done
to the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had four new tyres put on on the car.
MR COWARD
why?
IAN HUNTLEY
because of tyre tracks I may have left on the road.
MR COWARD
in actual fact the date of the fitting of those tyres
was exactly to the day a year after the they had previously
been changed?
IAN HUNTLEY
as a matter of habit - I'm not saying this was the case
in this instance because it wasn't - but I have always
changed my tyres on a yearly basis, no matter what, no
matter what the tyre depth; it was just something I have
always done.
MR COWARD
so if this is a fair summary say so, if not say so the
main reason you changed your tyres that day was because
the tyres had been at the Drove and it was muddy?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it was the reason I changed my tyres on that day.
MR COWARD
the only reason?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, but I would have changed my tyres around that time
of year anyway.
MR COWARD
we are now on to page 8 of the chronology we see at 16.25,
call from Soham college kitchen to the Carr mobile, 5
minutes 47 seconds. I think it is the least of our worries
in this case, Mr Huntley, but was this a device you used
to get free calls to Maxine?
IAN HUNTLEY
Phoning from the college?
MR COWARD
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was free calls for me whether I used the mobile or
not, it would save me having to go regularly to get top
up cards for them, the mobile.
MR COWARD
why use the kitchen phone rather than a mobile?
IAN HUNTLEY
It actually saves the college money. it is much cheaper
to ring from a landline that what it is from a mobile
phone.
MR COWARD
this call is five and three quarters minutes, afternoon
5th August, where was Maxine when you were speaking to
her?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was in Grimsby.
MR COWARD
about an hour and a half later, 17.58, telephone call
from Maxine Carr to your mobile, 11 minutes 25 seconds
and a further call 6.35, again from Maxine's mobile to
your mobile, three minutes, 27 seconds. Can you help us
as to what was said on the calls at 5.16, the long one,
that's 17.58, and the three minute odd one at 18.35?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't tell you specifically what was said on a particular
call, what I can do is summarise the conversation over
the calls. On one of the calls Maxine told me - sorry
one of the calls I told Maxine, that Holly and Jessica,
I told her the names and what had happened that night.
One of the other calls Maxine told me she wanted to come
home, she wanted to know what was going on in Soham and
see if she could be of any help to anybody. Another call
was where I think I rang her to tell her that I had spoken
to Ruth and I had managed to sort out with her for me
to be off the following day, the Tuesday so I could go
and pick Maxine up. That's pretty much all I can remember
about the calls.
MR COWARD
it is also on this day at one o'clock, roughly, in the
afternoon, that you had given a witness statement to the
police?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
they wanted to know whether you had seen the girls and
you gave the witness statement, which the Members of the
Jury have in one of their bundles. that was not the truth,
was it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
did it because your mind when the police came to take
that statement that now was the time to do it to tell
them what had happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
it did cross my mind but it is fair to say that that thought
- I quickly dismissed that thought.
MR COWARD
more telephone calls, page 9, on Monday, 5th August, between
you and Maxine. one very short, the other 6 minutes. then
on Tuesday, 6th August, did you go to Grimsby to collect
Maxine?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR COWARD
of all the people, Mr Huntley, that you know, who did
you want to tell most what had actually happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wanted to tell Maxine.
MR COWARD
And did you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
have you ever told Maxine what you have told this Jury
today?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I think unless Maxine's legal team have told her this
is the first time that Maxine would have heard what happened
that day.
MR COWARD
did you ever try to tell her?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, at one time I asked Maxine if she thought I was responsible
and I half hoped, because I knew my behaviour had been
very strange, I was constantly crying, I wasn't eating,
my weight was going down, I thought she must have spotted
something not quite right, so I asked her that question,
half hoping she would say "yes" because that
would sort of pave the way for me to tell her, but she
told me not to be daft and no, there is no way she thought
I was in any way responsible.
MR COWARD
as she was the person who you would have told first, you
never told anybody else either?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
so Maxine gets home and the days go by and, as we know,
further police activity, a massive press presence, people
knocking on the door for interviews, radio people wanting
you, television people wanting you. what was your approach
to television interviews?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't want to know.
MR COWARD
was there a reason?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
a particular reason?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. there was two.
MR COWARD
it is something that is already referred to in the Maxine
Carr interviews, so perhaps I can take the matter fairly
shortly. in 1998 were you arrested on an allegation of
rape?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I was.
MR COWARD
were you, following your arrest, out on bail or remanded
to prison and custody?
IAN HUNTLEY
initially I was remanded into custody at HMP (inaudible).
MR COWARD
what was that like?
IAN HUNTLEY
(inaudible)
MR COWARD
Eventually did the Crown Prosecution Service write you
a letter saying they were discontinuing the proceedings
against you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, they didn't write to me, whilst I was in the bail
hostel a fax came through telling me that I was free to
go, and when I spoke to my legal team afterwards they
said they had CCTV footage that assisted me, supported
what I had said.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, how hard did that arrest?
IAN HUNTLEY
very hard, I missed my daughter being born , I lost my
home, I lost my job.
MR COWARD
what about your mental state as a result of being arrested
and in custody?
IAN HUNTLEY
(inaudible).
MR COWARD
coming now to Soham in August, why wouldn't you give a
television interview?
IAN HUNTLEY
One, I genuinely don't like cameras, my parents haven't
even got any decent photographs of me. secondly, I was
frightened somebody may ring from Grimsby and make the
police in Cambridgeshire aware of that allegation.
MR COWARD
which would obviously point the finger at you?
IAN HUNTLEY
it would draw more attention to me, yes.
MR COWARD
eventually, going through the sequence of events, we know
you did go on television and your face was seen, not just
in the Anglia area, but nationwide. How did that change?
IAN HUNTLEY
somebody secretly filmed me, I was sat down at lunch time,
put the television on and on the screen there was me I
think getting out of my car, I think getting out of my
car, they had secretly filmed me and that was on national
news.
MR COWARD
so your picture was now out for the public to see?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
so you didn't want to do----?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was still sceptical, didn't want to do the television
interviews.
MR COWARD
but they were persistent and as you - we know - you did.
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, they were very persistent.
MR COWARD
we also know, it follows from what you were telling us,
that when you were doing those interviews you were telling
the world lies, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what was that like?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was falling to pieces inside. it was very difficult.
MR COWARD
we know on the 13th August, because the evidence was read,
this morning(?) you had got 56 tablets for depression.
we also know from this morning you didn't take them, the
doctor had given them to you but you didn't take them,
why?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I wanted to take an overdose. it has been very
difficult to live with what has happened and I ouldn't
get the words out to tell anybody so I guess you will
probably call me a coward, but every time every time I
looked at Maxine, I couldn't do it.
MR COWARD
so the days go on, the lies are repeated whenever anybody
else asks you, the lies are repeated. Until, eventually,
we get to a time we have heard about when the police came
to your house, number 5 and said they wanted to do a search
there. Was that the last time you ever went to number
5 on the day they said we want to do the search?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, it was.
MR COWARD
we know you went to a hotel because your house as not
available for you to live in. we also know that you were
arrested in the early hours, 4.23, I think, at your father's
house, mother and father's house, at Littleport. do you
remember going to the hotel?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you remember leaving the hotel?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you remember being at your father's house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you remember being arrested?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what is the next memory that you have? Sometime at your
father's house you say you don't have a memory of events.
When did you next have a memory, where were you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I remembered Roy giving me a sandwich, he said that was
at the police station. the next thing I know I was at
Rampton.
MR COWARD
at Rampton? when you left the house and the police wanted
to search the house what clothes were you wearing?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had a blue polo shirt, short sleeved top on, navy blue
trousers, and my black work boots and a silver watch.
MR COWARD
were those your usual work clothes?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I had many sets.
MR COWARD
were the blue trousers, the blue trousers the Jury heard
about this morning, you had been issued with three pairs
of them for your work when you worked at an agency, Kimberley
Clarke?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know how many pairs I had but I know I had more
than that.
MR COWARD
when you were at the police station we know from another
statement that was read to the Jury this morning that
your clothing was taken from you. do you remember that
happening?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I don't.
MR COWARD
amongst the items taken from you was a pair of suede orange-coloured
boots. Are they yours?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
I would like you to have a look, please, at some items
of clothing that were seized from Littleport, your father's
house. Could you have a look, Mr Huntley, at the items
in those brown paper bags? Would you take them out of
the bag? Is there some footwear?
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
Is that all you want from that?
MR COWARD
my Lord, not just the footwear; the trousers as well.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
only the trousers and footwear. we have now got a pair
or boots out----
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry I cannot hear you.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
a pair of boots out.
MR COWARD
whose boots are those, Mr Huntley?
IAN
HUNTLEY
these are mine.
MR COWARD
were they the boots you were wearing at the time the police
came to search number 5?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
next to the boots are some blue trousers, do they have
a maker's name on?
IAN HUNTLEY
Alexandra.
MR COWARD
whose trousers are those?
IAN HUNTLEY
these are mine.
MR COWARD
do you actually have any memory how they came to be left
at Littleport and you finished up when the police took
from you the orange suede boots?
IAN
HUNTLEY
do you mean do I know how, or do I actually remember how?
MR COWARD
do you remember, not what you had been told?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
you do not actually remember?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
thank you very much. those orange suede boots, perhaps
they can come up on the screen? thank you. Do you know
of your own knowledge, having seen them with your own
eyes, whose footwear those are?
IAN
HUNTLEY
my dad said they are his.
MR COWARD
had you seen him wearing them?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't recall ever seeing him wearing them.
MR COWARD
you can't recall. the other items that were taken from
you on arrest. I wonder if you could have an opportunity,
please, of looking at those, as well as the boots. The
ones in the blue box there are from Littleport. Can we
have the items taken from Mr Huntley whilst he was at
Huntingdon police station? I'm going to show you a pair
of boots. We have got the boots on the picture, my Lord.
there is no advantage.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that's the orange suede ones.
MR COWARD
the orange suede ones. The other items of clothing are
not immediately available. At some stage it appears that
Maxine who, on the 4th August, was in fact in Grimsby,
told the police that she was in Soham and was in the bath
when the girls came and you spoke to them. now, Maxine
wasn't in Soham on the 4th, was she?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, she wasn't.
MR COWARD
could you help us to understand the sequence of events
how it came about that Maxine was putting forward a false
story? when you arrived back from Grimsby, the minute
the car stopped outside number 5, had you already agreed
to tell a false story?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
that morning the police came round on Tuesday, the 5th,
and took a statement from you.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
sorry, Monday is the 5th.
MR COWARD
quite right, thank you. on Monday, the 5th, the Police
came round, took a statement from you, and in a separate
room, a statement from Maxine?
IAN HUNTLEY
on Monday the 5th?
MR COWARD
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
page 13, Saturday, 10th August. I apologise, Mr Huntley,
I confused you and myself. Saturday, the 10th August,
you give a witness statement, Maxine gives a witness statement,
but in a separate room. before the police arrive on the
10th August, had you and Maxine talked about a false story?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what decision had you come to before the police arrived
on the 10th?
IAN HUNTLEY
we still hadn't made a firm decision, I wasn't very happy
about it, didn't want Maxine to get involved in this.
How it came about, I worked myself into quite a mess and
I said to her, I said words to the effect of, I'm going
to get arrested for this. That was one of the occasions
I - I was trying to tell her what had happened and then
Maxine came out and said I was here, and I asked her what
she meant by that. She took me a little bit by surprise
and she said "We'll tell them I was here with you."
MR COWARD
did Maxine know, was she your girlfriend at the time of
the Grimsby rape arrest?
IAN HUNTLEY
No, she wasn't.
MR COWARD
had you told Maxine about that arrest?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I had.
MR COWARD
how soon after you took up with her?
IAN HUNTLEY
very soon. I didn't want her to hear that from somebody
else. I thought if me and Maxine was going to have an
attempt at some sort of serious relationship she needed
to know from the outset.
MR COWARD
did anybody else fill her in with any of the details as
to the effect it had had on you?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I believe my mum did.
MR COWARD
your mum?
IAN HUNTLEY
but I have only found that out quite recently.
MR COWARD
there is talk of her backing you up by saying she was
in Soham at the vital time?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
when the policeman came knocking at the door?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
sorry, you said, "the vital time"; it is not
his words. the only evidence we have heard so far is,
"She told me tell them I was here with you",
no reference to "vital time".
MR COWARD
at the moment the police knocked on your door on 10th
August was it agreed between you and Maxine that in giving
your version of events Maxine would say she was at Soham
on the 4th?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it wasn't firmly agreed. I think Maxine
IAN HUNTLEY
when she came out of the - when the police officer had
gone.
MR COWARD
after the police had left her house, when did she talk?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would like to say - you asked me a question did I know
the police officers were coming that day; we did know
that police officer would be coming but we didn't know
what time or day.
MR COWARD
after the police officers had gone, Maxine told you she
had supported you by saying she was in Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
was the matter continued on that basis right until the
time you were in police custody?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
my Lord, I see the time, if my client would like a break
this would be a convenient moment, I'm going on to a different
aspect?
IAN HUNTLEY
if that would be okay, please?
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
yes, by all means. 10 minutes. {short adjournment}.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, the Members of the Jury have heard from a
number of witnesses about the sort of questions that you
were asking police officers, in particular whilst the
search for the girls was going on. do you accept that
you were asking questions?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I do.
MR COWARD
what was the purpose of you asking? what were you trying
to find out?
IAN HUNTLEY
to see if I had covered my tracks , I suppose.
MR COWARD
to see if you could----?
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
to see if I have covered my tracks.
MR COWARD
covered my tracks? we reach a stage I think in going through
the sequence of events where you described being at your
father's house at Littleport, you remember arriving there
but you don't remember being arrested, you remember something
about a sandwich your solicitor talking about sandwiches
at the police station and then your next memory was in
Rampton?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
you began in Rampton and then eventually you were transferred
to Woodhill Prison in Buckinghamshire, and then eventually
to Belmarsh----?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR COWARD
----on the outskirts of London. Whilst you were at Rampton
what did you remember of the events of the night of the
4th August?
IAN HUNTLEY
nothing. I remember that some- I'm not sure if I remembered
at Rampton or shortly after arriving at Wood Hill that
Holly had a nosebleed, but that is as far as my recollection.
MR COWARD
you remembered that Holly had a nosebleed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
you know now that Holly did have a history of nosebleeds,
the statement has been read to the Jury on 4th August.
Did you know that Holly did suffer from nosebleeds and
had in the past?
IAN HUNTLEY
that she had in the past, no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
so the weeks go by, the months go by, you are in custody.
Did a time come when your memory of events of the 4th
August changed?
IAN HUNTLEY
do you mean became clearer.
MR COWARD
became clearer?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, there was.
MR COWARD
are you able to help us as to when that was?
IAN HUNTLEY
a few weeks after I had taken my overdose.
MR COWARD
the overdose - was that the overdose which led you to
be admitted into Milton Keynes hospital?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was, yes.
MR COWARD
when you took the overdose, were you trying to kill yourself?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I was.
MR COWARD
why?
IAN HUNTLEY
too many reasons. first of all, in May all communications
with Maxine stopped. They had stopped directly between
us sometime before, but Maxine had been contacting my
mother on a fairly regular basis so I knew how Maxine
was doing. Basically my mum would tell Maxine how I was
getting on.
MR COWARD
your mother was able to tell you what Maxine was writing
to her so you were kept in the picture?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
and did that stop?
IAN HUNTLEY
it did, yes.
MR COWARD
what did you feel about that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was devastated.
MR COWARD
devastated?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
was that one of the reasons why you tried to kill yourself?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
any others?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had been trying pretty much everyday to try and remember
what had happened on the 4th August. I knew inside that
I wasn't there for no reason and I knew that something
must have happened, but didn't know what, I had been seeing
all kinds of things, for example, I had seen the girls
leaving my house or thought I had seen the girls leaving
my house and the psychiatrist said that was a coping mechanism
and I was just seeing what I wanted to see. it was driving
me mad trying to, trying to remember and nothing coming.
(inaudible).
MR COWARD
let me understand. this phrase which began in your father's
house, and extends up to and includes the suicide attempt,
it is not a case of you couldn't get the words out, it
is just a case of you say it wouldn't come back into my
memory?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
when you came back from Milton Keynes hospital to Woodhill
Prison, did you continue to strive to remember what had
happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't. when I was ----.
MR COWARD
what approach did you adopt after the suicide bid
IAN HUNTLEY
I made my mum and dad a promise that I would get myself
through to the trial and tell Holly and Jessica's parents
what actually happened. I had promised that. I knew that
if I kept going on the same way that I was doing with
the same approach, I wouldn't be able to keep that promise
because I felt very depressed, so I decided just to focus
on one day at time, tried to put everything else out of
my mind and just get through each day.
MR COWARD
with this different mental approach did a time come when
things did come back?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, things started coming back very slowly, there was
about - there was a few weeks after I was released from
the hospital.
MR COWARD
who was the first person you told that the girls had died
in your house?
IAN HUNTLEY
Gary.
MR COWARD
is that Gary Quantick?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, Mr Quantick.
MR COWARD
your solicitor?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
can you remember the date?
IAN HUNTLEY
September, that's all I can remember.
MR COWARD
of this year?
IAN HUNTLEY
I say things started coming back after a few weeks, there
wasn't just one day couldn't remember and the next day
I could. It was very slow, a bit like a jig-saw puzzle,
first of all I started hearing the voice and the voice
was, "You pushed her", and thought that I must
have pushed her down the stairs or something. It was very
difficult to piece things together, and it was also difficult
at times to know the difference between reality and imagination.
I had problems with imagining things and things I wanted
to see, and the way I determined the difference was that
the reality - if there was emotion attached to it - you
could sort of feel; you could feel what you was feeling
at the time.
MR COWARD
was this September of this year?
IAN
HUNTLEY
September of this year.
MR COWARD
once you had spoken to the solicitor was it all perfect
and complete your memory?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
are there bits that more recently have come back to you?
IAN HUNTLEY
the main fundamental bits, that is what I told Gary, and
things I remember, little bits and pieces here and there
since then.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, here you are in the witness box at number
1 Court at the Old Bailey, charged with two offences of
murder. could you try to convey to the Members of the
Jury your overall feelings about all of this?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wish I could turn back the clock. I wish I could do
things differently. I just wish none of this had ever
happened. I am sorry for what has happened and I am ashamed
of what I did. I accept that I am responsible for the
deaths of Holly and Jessica and there is nothing I can
do about it now. since (inaudible).
MR COWARD
did you intend to kill Holly and Jessica?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
did you intend to cause them really serious bodily harm?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
wait there. (Cross-examined by
MR HUBBARD
)
MR HUBBARD
Mr Huntley, Sunday, 4th August. Before you say the girls
came around to your house, you had a telephone conversation
with Maxine, yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm sorry, before?
MR HUBBARD
before the girls came round to your house, you spoke to
Maxine on the telephone, 18.24?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes, that's correct, I did.
MR HUBBARD
you asked her if she was going out that night?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, possibly.
MR HUBBARD
she said she was?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she did.
MR HUBBARD
you were cross with her, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wouldn't say I was cross, I wasn't overly happy.
MR HUBBARD
you told the Jury this morning that you were slightly
annoyed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's a fair description.
MR HUBBARD
it was more than slightly annoyed, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no it wasn't.
MR HUBBARD
because you put the phone down to her, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't recall putting the phone down on her. That's not
to say that I didn't.
MR HUBBARD
moments later you received a text from her to the effect,
"Don't make me feel guilty about going out"?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, I did.
MR HUBBARD
and you knew that that had been sent because you had put
the phone down on her, didn't you?
IAN
HUNTLEY
like I say, I don't recall putting the phone down on her.
I may have done.
MR HUBBARD
Monday, the 5th August, you rang and spoke to her shortly
before seven o'clock in the morning?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR HUBBARD
0656. on that occasion, you simply told her that you had
been up all night, "looking for children that had
gone missing"?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I'd say that it was "Holly and Jessica".
MR HUBBARD
you did not Mr Huntley, did you?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes, I did. I'm absolutely clear about that.
MR HUBBARD
you are not very clear about the rest of the conversations,
are you, that day. I cannot be exactly sure what was said
in each conversation, all I can do is summarise what was
said. You told Maxine you had not been to bed, that's
right?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes that's correct.
MR HUBBARD
and you had not been home since about 5 o'clock that Monday
morning?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. I can't remember the time but I did give a time.
MR HUBBARD
simply I suggest you told her that two children had gone
missing
IAN HUNTLEY
No, sir, that's not correct.
MR HUBBARD
The next significant call to her, conversation with her,
was at 16.25 that afternoon, page (inaudible) of our schedule
- she told you she was at her grandfather's house at Keelby?
IAN HUNTLEY
(?) She was at her grandfathers house when I made a call
to her, or she made a call me, yes.
MR HUBBARD
I am going to put to you in some detail what I suggest
you said to her on that occasion, 16.25 that afternoon.
you were very quiet on the telephone with her, weren't
you, very distant? do you remember that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't.
MR HUBBARD
you told her that the children had not been found, still
had not been found?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would have told her that they had not been found, yes.
MR HUBBARD
you told her the children were from her school and their
names were Holly and Jessica?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I told her in the morning phone call that they was
Holly and Jessica.
MR HUBBARD
that the police were searching everywhere for them? Did
you tell her that?
IAN HUNTLEY
possibly.
MR HUBBARD
you said that the two children had come by your house
the previous evening and asked about her?
IAN HUNTLEY
that was on the morning telephone call.
MR HUBBARD
you told her that the children had approached the house
as you were brushing and cleaning Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
that the children had asked how she was?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
you replied she wasn't good because she didn't get the
job, right?
IAN HUNTLEY
words to that effect.
MR HUBBARD
you then told her that the two girls had come into the
house?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, sir, I didn't tell her the girls had come into the
house until Wednesday, I believe it was - it would have
either been Tuesday night or Wednesday.
MR HUBBARD
and you went on to tell her that one of the girls had
started sniffing and there was blood on the girl's fingers,
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
on the Tuesday or Wednesday I did tell Maxine that Holly
had a nose bleed, yes.
MR HUBBARD
no, Mr Huntley, I am suggesting this is the Monday afternoon
you understand that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. You are incorrect.
MR HUBBARD
you explained to her it was the dark-haired girl that
was suffering from the nose bleed?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no, I told her the same as I told my mother, it was the
blonde haired.
MR HUBBARD
the same as you told your mother?
IAN
HUNTLEY
my mum, yes.
MR HUBBARD
you didn't tell your mother the truth did you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I told my mum that Holly had a nose bleed.
MR HUBBARD
you didn't tell your mother what you had told this Jury,
did you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I told my mum the same as I told Maxine.
MR HUBBARD
yes. you explained to Maxine, I suggest, that you had
taken the girls upstairs and applied tissues?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR HUBBARD
one of the girls had sat on the edge of the bed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, Holly.
MR HUBBARD
and she got cross with you, she didn't she, and said "That
was a stupid thing to do, letting the girls into the house."
that was her reaction wasn't it?
IAN
HUNTLEY
quite possibly, yes, and I would agree with her.
MR HUBBARD
you told her that the girls had left the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR HUBBARD
and walked away?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Huntley, let's put aside one moment when this conversation
took place, but that was the account you persisted in
with her, that the girls had left the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and walked away?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR HUBBARD
now reverting back to the Monday afternoon, I have to
suggest to you that you said to her that it would be better
if she was at home with you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, Maxine told me that she wanted to come home.
MR HUBBARD
but I expect you very much wanted her back home, didn't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
after all, you have told us that you wanted, above anyone
else, to tell her what happened?
IAN
HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR HUBBARD
you must have been very anxious to get her back home to
tell her that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that would be fair. I certainly had no objection
when Maxine told me she wanted to come home.
MR HUBBARD
you see the only difference between us, I suggest, it
was at your suggestion that she had come back home but
that she readily agreed to it and certainly we can agree
on this, can't we, that on the Monday afternoon it was
agreed between you two that she would come home?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
you had to make arrangements to come and collect her?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, Maxine wanted to come back on the Monday and I said
that would be impossible, it would have to be at least
the following day.
MR HUBBARD
there was no suggestion on that Monday that Maxine was
ever to lie?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, there wasn't.
MR HUBBARD
later that Monday evening there was a further call, talk
with her about when you would come to collect her on the
Tuesday?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I told her that I had spoken to Ruth, arrangements
had been made and that I could come and collect her the
following day.
MR HUBBARD
and you arrived round about midday on Tuesday, 6th August?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
outside her mother's house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
had you had your hair cut?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had my hair cut on the, I think it was a two or three
o'clock appointment, on the Saturday afternoon.
MR HUBBARD
before you set or before you, when you set off to go back
to Soham on that Tuesday lunch time did you drop her mother
off?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, we dropped her mother off at Blue Crest.
MR HUBBARD
on her way to work?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. R HUBBARD before picking up the hitchhiker?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
now, Tuesday afternoon, you and Maxine had a very long
talk, didn't you, at home?
IAN HUNTLEY
Tuesday afternoon?
MR HUBBARD
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, we didn't, we didn't arrive back into Soham until,
I think it was, about 20 to 5 then I was called straight
over to the college to assist with the police search.
MR HUBBARD
one of the first things that happened when Maxine got
home on that Tuesday was her commenting to you about the
light fittings?
IAN HUNTLEY
possibly, yes, there was quite a prominent----
MR HUBBARD
You told her that there had been water damage?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and the room would dry out of its own accord?
IAN HUNTLEY
possibly.
MR HUBBARD
you explained to her that the bath had been damaged?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR HUBBARD
this, I am suggesting, is when you got back on the Tuesday
afternoon, all right?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would disagree with the time because I wasn't, I wasn't
there.
MR HUBBARD
I expect you had to tell her pretty quickly didn't you
Mr Huntley, that the bath was damaged in case she had
a bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe that conversation, if it took place on Tuesday
would have been Tuesday night, that would have been the
first opportunity I had.
MR HUBBARD
all right, let's not worry about the hour. you told her
that Sadie had misbehaved in the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
I told her Sadie was putting up a struggle when I was
trying to bath her.
MR HUBBARD
a small matter the washing machine in the kitchen; that
was full of washed clothes, articles, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
possibly, I don't know.
MR HUBBARD
you remember a duvet cover and a quilt?
IAN HUNTLEY
no .
MR HUBBARD
had you washed the duvet cover and a quilt whilst she
was away?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't even know how to operate the washing machine.
MR HUBBARD
hm?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't even know how to operate the washing machine.
MR HUBBARD
what about the quilt and duvet cover of the bed upon which
the children had sat or one of the children?
IAN HUNTLEY
I just got a wet cloth to that.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Huntley, is that the truth?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is the truth, yes.
MR HUBBARD
there was further conversation between and you Maxine
about the girl's nosebleed, maybe the evening but sometime
you got back that day?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
what was all that about?
IAN HUNTLEY
I just, I told her that Holly had a nosebleed and they
had left the house, basically.
MR HUBBARD
she suggested to you that you might tell the police about
the girls coming into the house and them leaving?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, she didn't suggest that.
MR HUBBARD
you said to her that would definitely mean you would lose
your job?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, there was no - no, that wasn't said at all.
MR HUBBARD
which would of course have been a consequence?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry.
MR HUBBARD
you would have lost your job?
IAN HUNTLEY
because the girls had been in the house.
MR HUBBARD
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I wouldn't.
MR HUBBARD
you wouldn't? you told her you didn't know which way to
turn?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe I did say that, yes.
MR HUBBARD
you were walking up and down the room, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
saying, "Oh God, oh God, oh God"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
saying to her you thought you would be a suspect?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and saying it would have been so much easier if you were
there at the time?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't put that idea forward.
MR HUBBARD
that's what you said to her, I suggest?
IAN HUNTLEY
on the Monday I had had a brief, well, I had a discussion
with one of the caretakers, Ruth, about the possibility
of Maxine giving me an alibi - so I did have that idea,
but I didn't put that forward to Maxine, we discussed
this and she said, "That's not a good idea"
and I agreed, I have no reason to lie about that.
MR HUBBARD
let's analyse that. Ruth, is that Ruth Oddy?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is, yes.
MR HUBBARD
she works with you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
the day before, on the Monday, you had a conversation
with her?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
what exactly did you say to her?
IAN
HUNTLEY
Ruth was aware of the allegation that had been made against
me in Grimsby, and it was on that basis that I put the
idea forward to her, and she told me to stop being so
stupid and that was a ridiculous idea. We discussed it
more, some more, and I agreed with her that that was a
bad idea.
MR HUBBARD
if she had said, "Yes, that's a jolly good idea",
would you have suggested to Maxine that she lie for you?
IAN HUNTLEY
Because I had had time to think about it, I didn't want
Maxine getting involved in this at all. didn't want to
get Maxine tied up in this.
MR HUBBARD
it follows that Ruth Oddy - you told her that she was
in Grimsby?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, Ruth knew that - sorry, Ruth knew she had gone to
Grimsby.
MR HUBBARD
yes, it was generally known that she was up in Grimsby
by your staff?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, all of my staff, including Mrs Bryden, who was my
immediate superior, knew Maxine had gone to Grimsby.
MR HUBBARD
you see, what you say you were suggesting possibly to
Ruth Oddy on the Monday, I suggest you were making crystal
clear to Maxine on the Tuesday?
IAN
HUNTLEY
I didn't put the idea forward to Maxine
MR HUBBARD
I have to put it to you in terms that you said if anybody
asks you where you were on the Sunday you should say you
were in Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, Maxine at one point did tell my mother that she had
put the idea forward, which is correct Maxine did.
MR HUBBARD
on the Wednesday, the 7th, you asked her if she would
go to Lakenheath with you, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, I did.
MR HUBBARD
for what purpose?
IAN HUNTLEY
to get away from the press and the police, I thought the
break would do us both some good. Maxine was being hounded
by the press just as much as I was. she was getting very
upset and she could do with a break as well.
MR HUBBARD
the Jury have in their bundle, the grey bundle, some notes.
it is my tab, green tab 4. I wonder if you could be given
a copy, please? (Same handed) Did you write that ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR HUBBARD
when?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe it was Wednesday or Thursday.
MR HUBBARD
what, the first week?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, the first week.
MR HUBBARD
why did you write it?
IAN HUNTLEY
because Maxine, if she was going to lie to the police,
she had to be certain of what she was going to say. Maxine
read out to me what she was going to say she had been
doing and I wrote it down and I believe sometime later
Maxine wrote it down in neat, but it was my idea to write
these instructions down.
MR HUBBARD
in effect you were writing her script for her weren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
Maxine was dictating to me, I wrote them down, though
it was my idea.
MR HUBBARD
she told you what she had told a police officer about
how long she was in the bath.
IAN HUNTLEY
this was done before we spoke to a police officer, we
didn't speak to a police officer until the Saturday.
MR HUBBARD
I suggest when she told you she said to a police officer
she had been in the bath for about an hour, you got angry
and said that is silly, that's far too long and that's
how this note came to be written?
IAN
HUNTLEY
no, this was written up before the police officer, on
here it says she was in the bath for three quarters of
an hour.
MR HUBBARD
at one stage you say you tried to tell Maxine what happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
several times.
MR HUBBARD
well, tell us what you said?
IAN HUNTLEY
most occasions nothing came out at all. On one particular
occasion I asked Maxine if she thought I had anything
to do with the death of Holly and Jessica.
MR HUBBARD
I may return to that but later. on any other occasion?
IAN HUNTLEY
there is a few but I can't be specific as to, days, times.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Huntley, it is not for me what you have told the Jury,
but what you have said was a complete accident, wasn't
it, what happened to these children? it was a dreadful
accident?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
there was no-one better to confide in than the girl you
loved?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's right.
MR HUBBARD
you knew she certainly loved you?
IAN
HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
she had been talking about marriage hadn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
even talking about having your baby?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
even talking about the children at the school being bridesmaids?
IAN HUNTLEY
she did tell me that in that week yes.
MR HUBBARD
didn't you think you owed to it her to tell her it was
a complete accident?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did the problems, the problem I had telling her
about was what occurred afterwards, which was why I could
actually say nothing to her.
MR HUBBARD
you see you knew, didn't you, that if you told her what
in truth had happened, she would say to you for goodness
sake, go to the police?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes , I would accept that.
MR HUBBARD
that's exactly why you could never tell her what happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I couldn't get the words out.
MR
HUBBARD
you deceived her throughout didn't you by letting her
think the children had walked away from the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR HUBBARD
my Lord, two matters upon which we need to take instructions
concerning the evidence.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
subject to the (inaudible) that's it.
MR HUBBARD
subject to that, and I daresay I shall have done. It is
the logistics ----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
absolutely, you check up overnight and we'll all hope
the ... that's enough for today. thank you very much.
ladies and gentlemen, we are reaching as you will appreciate,
a particularly important and sensitive part of the trial.
Remember what I have said to you about not allowing anybody
to talk to you about this, not talking between yourselves
or in the presence or hearing of anybody else. I have
not stopped you and can't ask to look at television or
press if it was me it was it would be the first thing
I would look at but you well remember they are not transcript,
people will pick out what they regard as particularly
important, what is significant or indeed what is particularly
dramatic to them. Hearing adjourned - will resume tomorrow
Page 01
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