02/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Tuesday, 02 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03
MR HUBBARD
I'm not going to be long, Mr Huntley. yesterday, you told
the Jury "I asked Maxine if she thought I was responsible",
she told me not to be daft?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
in fact, I suggest, you asked Maxine whether she thought
you could have done more on the story you gave her?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know what you mean.
MR HUBBARD
didn't you say to Maxine after you explained that the
girls had come inside and walked away----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
just pause - it is quite impossible with this noise. can
you deal with it? go on.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Huntley, after you told Maxine that the girls had come
into the house and then had walked away, you asked her,
I suggest, whether she thought you could have done more?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't , I asked her if she thought I had done it.
MR HUBBARD
and the other matter on the Monday morning in the early
hours, sometime after four o'clock, police sergeant Pauline
Nelson has told us that she asked you at the end of her
conversation "Where is your partner?", she told
you your reply was, "why?".
IAN HUNTLEY
she didn't ask that question, I wasn't even with her at
four o'clock, I was in Beechurst from 3.30 onwards.
MR HUBBARD
the other matter, a fireman, Mr Fordham, told us that
on that Monday, sometime around 9.15/9.30 in the evening,
you said to him "I have got to go now, my Mrs has
got my dinner ready"?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I told him my tea was getting cold I had been to purchase
fish and chips or something from the chip shop.
MR HUBBARD
he told us you said "My Mrs...."?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't say that.
MR HUBBARD
what time that Monday did you speak to Ruth Oddy about
the possibility of getting Maxine to give an alibi?
IAN HUNTLEY
that would have been about 11 o'clock Monday morning,
half ten, 11 o'clock.
MR HUBBARD
did you actually say to her "I want to get Maxine
home so she can give me an alibi"?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, didn't say that. I just spoke to Ruth about the possibility
of getting Maxine to give me an alibi.
MR HUBBARD
as best as you can, what were your words to her, how did
the conversation start?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't really recall how the conversation started, all
I can do really is summarise what the conversation was
about.
MR HUBBARD
later, did she visit you in your house, later that Monday?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she did, Monday tea time, I think it was.
MR HUBBARD
that's it. were you doing a bit of cleaning to the carpets?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I was hoovering.
MR HUBBARD
and using some Shake and Vac?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, yes.
MR HUBBARD
whereabouts in the house were you Hoovering, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
the living room, hallway, and the stairway.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
we'll pause now until we get this amplification, I'm not
having this cross-examination with the echoes.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, it sounds to me as if the volume is slightly
louder than it has been thus far.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
it always is when Mr Hubbard cross-examines but it does
need sorting out. I'm very sorry, Mr Huntley. let's just
check to get it right because it is hopelessly distracting.
(Short adjournment)
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, Mr Latham.
MR LATHAM
before the overdose, try as you might, you couldn't remember
what happened; is that what you are telling us?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was seeing different things, yes.
MR LATHAM
seeing different things. but try as I might you couldn't
remember what had happened. Is that what you are saying?
IAN HUNTLEY
I thought at times what I was seeing as well as actually
remembering (at times I was seeing rather than actually
remembering).
MR LATHAM
what you told us yesterday when you came back from Milton
Keynes Hospital you didn't continue to strive to remember,
you just made mum and dad a promise that you would get
yourself through to this trial so that you could tell
Holly and Jessica's parents the truth?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
so all your efforts have been designed to help Holly and
Jessica's parents?
IAN HUNTLEY
not entirely, no.
MR LATHAM
all your efforts have been designed to help you, haven't
they?
IAN HUNTLEY
partly.
MR LATHAM
because from start to finish in this case you have been
looking after yourself, haven't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I haven't.
MR LATHAM
you don't care what effect it has on anyone else, do you?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's not true.
MR LATHAM
by relaxing after you got back from Milton Keynes hospital
things started the come back?
IAN HUNTLEY
it weren't a case of relaxing, it was just changing my
approach.
MR LATHAM
changing your approach? things started to come back?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I would like you to, in the light of the partial motive
to help those two sets of parents , I would like you to
go to the grey file which is in front of you, to the first
tab , if you will, where you will find the transcripts
of the interviews that took place with various media outfits.
I would like you to go to page 8, if you will, which is
the second page of the transcripts of the BBC Look East
interview of 10th August. Have you got page 8? that's
the 10th August - you see that at page 7?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
go over the page, and the second hole from for the ring
binder, do you see your words "yes, the police haven't
really said anything". Have you found that?
IAN HUNTLEY
Sorry, where is that.
MR LATHAM
the second ring binder hole "yes, the police haven't
really said anything." Have you got that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
"they have been around, they have taken a statement,
it has been confirmed as an accurate sighting and I'm
sure that helps them to retrace the steps of the children"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
lying, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
because, far from helping them retrace the steps of the
children, what you had done was designed to confuse, wasn't
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
it wasn't designed to confuse, it was just a lie to -----
MR LATHAM
it was designed to put the police off the scent, wasn't
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
the motive was what?
IAN HUNTLEY
so that the police didn't know that I was responsible.
MR LATHAM
yes, to protect Ian Huntley, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and your next answer "I see Mr Kevin Wells, I believe
it was Wednesday morning", that is the 7th August,
Wednesday morning after the press conference, "and
I had a brief chat with him just to say that basically
I hoped everything turns out okay and, you know, that
the kids return safely home and that was all that was
really said. obviously Kev was really very distressed
and talking to a lot of people". So you had a chat
with Kev, did you, on the 7th August, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and when you said to him that you hoped everything turns
out okay, turns out okay for whom?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was just what I said.
MR LATHAM
it was inexcusable that, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and it was done to portray an image to benefit you, wasn't
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were playing with the emotions of that parent solely
in order to benefit your own position, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I weren't intentionally playing with anyone's emotions.
MR LATHAM
over the page "it is very upsetting, you know, and
to think I might be the last friendly face that these
two girls had to speak to". You said that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you regard yourself, now the memories come rushing
back, do you regard yourself as being a friendly face
in relation to those two girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was a friendly face, yes.
MR LATHAM
I see. because, you see, on that Wednesday when you spoke
to Kevin Wells it wasn't as though you were placed in
a corner when you had to say something; you actively sought
him out, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wanted to say sorry to him.
MR LATHAM
what you said - well we have seen what you said - but
you went out and sought him out, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did say to him, "Sorry, I didn't know it was
your daughter."
MR LATHAM
because on that same page, your previous answer "Kev
didn't approach me, I actually went and approached Kev"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
let's look at the last words from you before your arrest
that we know about, Mr Huntley. will you go to page 18
of this set of transcripts? this is the interview you
gave on the morning of the 16th August. have you got that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
your first words in that interview "I'm gutted as
I'm sure a lot of people in Soham are". Gutted about
what?
IAN HUNTLEY
personally, I was gutted about what had happened but nobody
else knew that.
MR LATHAM
you were actually expressing there, were you, the fact
that you were gutted that you had ended up being responsible
for the deaths of these two girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
that's what you meant by that, was it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not quite sure if that's what I meant at that time.
MR LATHAM
of course you didn't, you were pretending weren't you?
you go on again about being the last person to speak to
them don't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
The next sentence "I keep reliving that conversation
and thinking perhaps something different could have been
said. perhaps kept the them here a little longer, maybe
changed events"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I'm well aware of the lies that I told.
MR LATHAM
it was a bare faced lie, as had been the entire fortnight,
wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
some of it, yes.
MR LATHAM
all of it was, to every person you spoke, you told a lie,
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
some of it was lies.
MR LATHAM
and then at the second ring binder "overall , I thought
we are coping quite well, the overall view seems to be
that while there is no news there is still a glimmer of
hope and I would go along with that"?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was expressing the views of other people that had been
speaking about the case.
MR LATHAM
and "I would go along with that"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's what I said.
MR LATHAM
so "You have still got hope? yes, yes", words
uttered by you - the person that had dumped those two
bodies in the ditch, Mr Huntley, and you knew when you
said that you had, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
yes. yet you could stand and face the camera and face
the interviewer and tell bare faced lies because that's
what they are?
IAN HUNTLEY
didn't want to do those interviews.
MR LATHAM
but you did them, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
they didn't leave me much choice.
MR LATHAM
you were arrested, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
very shortly after that interview, and off to Rampton
you went as a result of your behaviour. that's right,
isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
as early as the 10th September, while you were at Rampton,
the prosecution served upon your lawyers the very first
case summary, setting out in a couple of pages the nature
of the case against you, didn't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't see any paperwork for quite sometime.
MR LATHAM
26th September, Maxine Carr's interview transcripts were
served upon your legal advisers, weren't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
like I said, didn't see any papers for quite some time.
MR LATHAM
on the 3rd October, the first of Mr Lamb's statement dealing
with the initial, the initial results of the forensic
examination was served upon your legal advisers. that's
right isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't say, I don't know when they were served.
MR LATHAM
you knew, you knew by the end of September and into early
October, the nature of the case against you at that point,
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
you knew about the geography problem that the bodies had
been found at a place very very close to where your parents
used to live, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
you knew about the geography problem?
IAN HUNTLEY
from the legal papers you mean?
MR LATHAM
from what you had learned either from what had been served
on your legal advisers, or you had been told. you knew
there was a geography problem. You understand what I mean
by geography problem?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew that didn't you in early October?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't. I don't know when the papers were served
on me, but it was later than that. You would have to check
with my legal team.
MR LATHAM
I have just been through what I am putting to you, that
you had the first prosecution case summary as early as
middle of September?
IAN HUNTLEY
my legal team may have done, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
You knew the prosecution had found the bin with the clothes
in, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that I did know.
MR LATHAM
you knew there were fingerprints on the bin liner of yours,
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
you knew there were hairs in the bin which could be linked
to you, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were told fibres matching the red shirts had been
found in your car?
IAN HUNTLEY
that was later on.
MR LATHAM
you knew that by the early part of October I suggest?
IAN HUNTLEY
No, it would have been later than that.
MR LATHAM
well, we'll see in a minute. in fact, that was incorrect,
that there were matching red fibres inside the car, wasn't
it, as the prosecution later revealed to you when the
chemical tests were done. do you remember Mr Lamb describing
that when he gave evidence in this Court Room?
IAN HUNTLEY
I remember my legal team saying something about it had
turned out not to be what they thought or something.
MR LATHAM
yes, but the belief was because they had not done the
chemical tests in early October, was that they had found
matching fibres in the car, so you knew, didn't you, in
early October, that it was being alleged that there were
red matching fibres in your car?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure when I became aware of that; I may have been.
MR LATHAM
that was the state of the prosecution case in early October,
what I have just been through, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I really can't say for early October.
MR LATHAM
you knew and you understood it perfectly well, didn't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
when it was put to me, it was put to me later than that,
some of those things.
MR LATHAM
on 8th October, after a full medical assessment at Rampton
Secure Hospital, you were transferred into the prison
system, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
the normal prison system?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
where you have been ever since, haven't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
so now, early October, you are in Woodhill Prison, correct?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and on the 23rd October, a short time after you arrived
there, you were visited by your mother, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I have had many visits from my mother.
MR LATHAM
yes, but on 23rd October you know you were visited by
her because there is a transcript of the conversation
you had with your mother?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes , I know it was some time in October.
MR LATHAM
by that date, you had read or been told and absorbed what
the prosecution case was at that stage, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, my legal team gave me the information whilst I was
at Woodhill.
MR LATHAM
let's look at what you and your mother talked about, if
we may. it is the last tab in the bundle, it has already
been pre-marked for you. I think you will find it is a
yellow mark for me. members of the Jury, it is tab 8.
The first document is the telephone call transcript, which
is about 5 pages long, and you come to the Woodhill transcript.
can I ask you to get to the first page of that? have you
got it, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 1, your words "they want to re-start the investigation
because they had got nothing." that's referring to
the police, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes it will be.
MR LATHAM
I have seen the deposition papers?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you had seen by 23rd October the statements which had
been served on your solicitors, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, it was given to me after I arrived at
Woodhill.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
they was given to me after I arrived at Woodhill.
MR LATHAM
so you had seen the deposition papers. there is that thing
with the what they found at the college, yes. that's the
bin you are referring to, isn't it? the thing they found
at the college was the bin, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and then "supposed tapings of my car". supposed.
not the only time have you used that word, is it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I couldn't say.
MR LATHAM
you used it to the hitchhiker, didn't you, that woman
who supposedly saw the girls. do you remember saying that
to the hitchhiker?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't recall it.
MR LATHAM
you knew that that hitchhiker, when you were talking to
the hitchhiker, you knew that that woman who had supposedly
seen the girls on the Monday was wrong, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
in the course of those two weeks I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
when you were speaking to the hitchhiker and said to him
"That woman who 'supposedly' saw the girls on Monday",
you knew that that woman couldn't possibly have seen the
two girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
because you had put them dead in a ditch on the Sunday,
hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
here you are saying to your mother, "them supposed
tapings of my car"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
even those the scientists were saying there were red fibres
inside the cabin of the car, you knew those girls had
not been in the cabin of the car, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
at that time I didn't think I had done anything wrong.
MR LATHAM
oh but you did Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
and you knew that the scientist must have got it wrong,
that's why you used the word "supposed tapings",
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I thought it was wrong, yes.
MR LATHAM
one fingerprint on a box of chocolates in the house from
one of the girls. now "I don't know how the fingerprint
on the box of chocolates came to be there , I really don't,
but what I think when Maxine left the school she got cards
and boxes of chocolates from all the children". That's
your answer to the girls' fingerprints being on the box
of chocolates isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
so that is answer 1 to problem 1 in the prosecution papers,
isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's what, sorry?
MR LATHAM
You had done an analysis of the prosecution papers, and
what you are going to be able to say in answer to what
the prosecution is alleging, aren't you. that's what you
are doing here ?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I was looking at it and thinking this can't be right.
MR LATHAM
down the page, that's that explained, that's relating
to the fingerprints on the chocolates. then look what
has been said 3 lines from the bottom "I remembered
everything, everything about Sunday now"?
IAN HUNTLEY
I have read some of the papers, yes.
MR LATHAM
not some of the papers, you have analysed the papers?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, my legal team is telling me things and I read some
of the papers; I didn't read all the papers by a long
way.
MR LATHAM
"I remember what they said and everything."
Everything. Mr Huntley, you remembered perfectly well
what had happened that Sunday, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believed that I did.
MR LATHAM
"but I can't say too much"?
MR LATHAM
you were keeping your powder dry, weren't you Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, the reason I said that because my mum said ...
MR LATHAM
you thought you could dodge your way round this case?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't think I had done anything wrong.
MR LATHAM
"as long as Roy knows what is going on", says
your mother, and you said "he doesn't, yet",
because you had not committed yourself to a lying account
that will fit the known facts, had you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I hadn't seen Roy whilst at Woodhill, I believe.
MR LATHAM
you were still working on how you could lie your way round
the prosecution case, weren't you, Mr Huntley?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that doesn't actually answer the question you were asked.
perhaps you would ask it again.
MR LATHAM
you were working out how to lie your way round the prosecution
case, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I wasn't.
MR LATHAM
"but I rung them yesterday and they are coming this
week, either tomorrow or Friday, the lot of them, all
of them. I have told them that I have remembered about
that day"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
what is this? Some sort of false memory syndrome, is it?
IAN HUNTLEY
the psychiatrist said I was seeing what I wanted to see,
it was a coping mechanism.
MR LATHAM
a what?
IAN HUNTLEY
a coping mechanism, that's what they later told me.
MR LATHAM
"if you are adamant on that, then I am adamant, I
am 100 per cent remember them girls leaving my house"?
IAN HUNTLEY
I did tell lies in the two week period, yes.
MR LATHAM
and then we see your defence emerge, don't we, Mr Huntley,
while talking to your mum? first ring binder, you see
the first hole?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
"I have been wondering, you know, if somebody has
perhaps been following the girls. I don't know if somebody
was following the girls".?
IAN HUNTLEY
its all (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
you suggest they left your house in one piece and this
was somebody else who followed them, did whatever
MR LATHAM
you were being far more devious than that, Mr Huntley,
you were inventing a defence to fit the facts, weren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I wasn't.
MR LATHAM
because you appreciated from the papers that had been
disclosed to you by the prosecution that there were witnesses
who purported to have seen the girls well after
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, that was one of the things that convinced
me I had done nothing wrong.
MR LATHAM
you latched on to that, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
yes. your mother knew that too, didn't she, there was
supposed to be two people watching them when they were
looking into a shop window. you see that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you went on "They left my house at 25 to 7, they
came into my house sometime between 20 past and 25 past
6,
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's not correct.
MR LATHAM
What?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's not correct.
MR LATHAM
it is an invention?
IAN HUNTLEY
it wasn't an invention , I actually did put a quiche and
jacket potato into the microwave at 6 o'clock.
MR LATHAM
"I had my tea at 7 o'clock" - invention?
IAN HUNTLEY
it wasn't invention, it was what I believed to be true
at time.
MR LATHAM
it is an invention, it never happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
as it turns out now, yes.
MR LATHAM
the last thing you say on this page "All I can think
of here, I think, this is what possibly happened, yes.
I'm going to put this to Roy to see what he thinks."
Roy is your solicitor, isn't he?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, he is.
MR LATHAM
"I am wondering if somebody was following them girls.
they have seen them come into my house, yes, the girls
have left my house, the girls were seen definitely by
four people at either 20 to or quarter to seven, there
is a good 5-10 minutes after they left my house, yes"
- over the page "they was then last seen at 20 past
7 by somebody, I definitely four confirmed sightings at
quarter to 7 and they had gone from my house by then,
yes. and I wonder if somebody was following, yes, they
have picked the girls up, they have done whatever they
have done with them and yes, because they have seen them
go into my house." you go on about a burning smell
coming from the college. this was your defence?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was working with the information what the legal team
was giving me----
MR LATHAM
you were looking at what information the prosecution had
and steering your course around it all,
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
then this is just false memory, all this stuff , is it?
IAN HUNTLEY
some of the things I was apparently seeing is just what
I wanted to see.
MR LATHAM
you are not deliberately lying to your mother, it is what
you actually believed had happened , is it?
IAN HUNTLEY
which part?
MR LATHAM
everything we have been through so far?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember exactly what I said to my mother.
MR LATHAM
well, everything so far that we have been through this
morning, that is all false memory syndrome, is it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, things kept changing.
MR LATHAM
let's look at the next bit, shall we, down at the bottom
of the page, because you move on to the clothes found
in the bin. you have dealt with the police search teams
not searching the hangar until Tuesday or Wednesday.
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry can you repeat?
MR LATHAM
yes, you heard during the course of the trial the hangar
was searched on Tuesday/Wednesday of the first week?
IAN HUNTLEY
I know that it was searched on the Tuesday/Wednesday.
MR LATHAM
you knew that at the time because you helped them by giving
them access?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you deal with that in this conversation as we are going
down the page. then look at what you said at the bottom
of the page "them clothes weren't there then, they
MR LATHAM
no, "I found them clothes", Mr Huntley, it is
quite clear. where did that come from? well, let me suggest
where it came from you knew you had a problem - your fingerprints
were on the bin liner, your head hairs were in the bin
mixed up with the clothes, that was a fundamental problem
for you, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it was.
MR LATHAM
indeed, it was the main plank of the prosecution case
in October of last year, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, probably.
MR LATHAM
yes. now there are two ways into that hangar..."I
were in my house, because what happened is when I do my
checks on the night I do a full security check on a Friday
night, yeah, now them gates, which I said I remember being
open but I couldn't understand why they was left open
all week". You are putting forward a scenario in
which a third party had access to the hangar because mistakenly
it was left unlocked?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was left unlocked.
MR LATHAM
you were putting forward a scenario in which a third party,
the killer, had access to the hangar, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was trying to make sense of all the information that
was presented to me.
MR LATHAM
over the page, you say so in terms, three lines down,
"...because the police were around so much they were
left open. so that person, the killer, could have got
in through that gate"?
IAN HUNTLEY
I think that's referring to when I see somebody on the
college grounds on the Monday night.
MR LATHAM
you see 8 lines down, yes, now, "They said they found
some of my, well, they are saying, they said they found
some of my hairs on the clothing"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and then the next thing you say "well, they say it
is the same make-up, they are not certain if it is the
same DNA or not". You see that? DNA, all they said
was the hairs were microscopically similar, they matched.
so they had not got a match on it but "I have already
said to Roy, I put the bag and everything there now, I
would have had to have leant over to put the bloody bag
in." "would the hair fall down?" "
yes, and you know what I'm like, constantly going like
this" - and you brushed your hair, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I do do that.
MR LATHAM
in other words, you were inventing a story in which you
came upon this bin with the clothes in it, way, way after
the the Sunday, the 4th, and that you were arranging a
bin liner and your hair must have dropped into the bin.
that's the scenario you are inventing here, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I did remember putting the bin liner into the bin and
I also do remember at some point the hangar door was----
MR LATHAM
not the Sunday, the night of the killing, you are explaining
to your mother the killer got access to the hangar and
put the clothes in the hangar and you later went to the
bin and your head hair going in there, as it were, by
accident?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's what I thought at the time.
MR LATHAM
well, you are telling your mother you could remember doing
that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I could remember putting the bin bag into the bin I also
remember on a separate night now that the hangar was open.
MR LATHAM
a week or ten days later on the 4th, that's what you are
saying here?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I came across the hangar on the Wednesday.
MR LATHAM
The next thing you say - that's "how I believe",
and "what I remember doing" - is "I see
the hangar open and the cupboard. you are telling her
you can actually remember this incident, it has nothing
to do with the Sunday night, has it?
IAN HUNTLEY
like I said, everything was confused and all over the
place.
MR LATHAM
then over the page, you move on to your next problem,
fibres in the car. six lines, seven lines down "I
know, do you think I don't know, why you think I get so
wound up and upset and frustrated? because I can't talk
to the police. because the doctors say I'm not fit to,
because I know if I can talk to the police, me and Maxine
will be out of here now. The only thing I can't answer
here, the car, my car boot was open here because I got
the brush for Sadie out there to brush her down. I was
going to take her out on the Saturday to the shop and
the girls said - that must be sat - on the edge of the
boot but didn't actually bloody go in the boot. now they
are claiming to have found fibres from the Manchester
United top in the boot. I don't know if it is possible
for bits to blow off or what, I just don't know."
this is the answer to the fibres, isn't it Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, they did sit on the edge of the boot.
MR LATHAM
this is Huntley's answer to the fibre problem, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
they did sit on the edge of the boot of the car.
MR LATHAM
but you are here, telling your mother how you are going
to deal with the problem of the girls' fibres having been
found in your car?
IAN HUNTLEY
like I said I'm looking at information that was presented
to me and trying to work things out.
MR LATHAM
"so the car boot was up? yes it was up. the girls
sat on the edge of the boot I went into the house, got
tissue for your nose but it didn't stop bleeding and that
was when I said 'Come in' and then I started to get cold
water. I took them upstairs because the kitchen sink was
full of pots, because I'm a bugger when Maxine is not
there for not washing up ", and so on. So you could
remember all that, could you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did remember them coming into the house, yes.
MR LATHAM
your mother says "Well you see how it looks though".
then you say this "yes, well, this is what I them
girls, seen them girls at my bloody house knowing well
well they might find some DNA in my house". What
DNA are you referring to there?
IAN HUNTLEY
to fibres from the shirts.
MR LATHAM
DNA?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. that's what it is.
MR LATHAM
DNA is fibres?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
DNA is a profile. a biological profile of somebody?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not a police officer, I would describe fibres as DNA.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not a police officer, I would describe fibres as DNA,
they do profile on them.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, you talked to several police officers about
DNA and discussed DNA profiling, and one officer talked
to you about the Tzars?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
nothing to do with fibres?
IAN HUNTLEY
fibres, hairs.
MR LATHAM
"knowing full well they might find some DNA in my
house, bugger off and put the clothes down at the school
to make it look like its me and that's really what I believe
happened" - that you were being framed by the killer?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's what I was thinking at the time, yes.
MR LATHAM
that was the defence you had devised?
IAN HUNTLEY
that wasn't a defence, that was just ideas that I was
putting forward.
MR LATHAM
over the page, "...because the police can't find
the *******
Transcript edited by Sky News
real person that done any of this"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. last two lines of it you are talking about the assumption
that two girls were put in the boot of your car "No
matter how many times you clean the car, hoover the car,
you are going to find hairs" and you knew that none
of the girls hairs had been found in your car didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes I did.
MR LATHAM
this was a cold blooded analysis of the prosecution case?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it wasn't.
MR LATHAM
and you knew perfectly well what you had to answer?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, didn't.
MR LATHAM
and you had worked a way out, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
you go on to say at the second ring binder,"I couldn't
fit two bloody girls in my boot", didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
but you did, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is only a small boot and at the time I didn't think
it was possible.
MR LATHAM
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes I did.
MR LATHAM
page 11, the top of the page, the third line down "what
I need to happen, that's the most infuriating thing, because
if I hadn't been doing all this shutting down malarkey",
that's what it was, wasn't it, 'malarkey'?
IAN HUNTLEY
what do you mean by malarkey.
MR LATHAM
what do you mean by malarkey, your word not mine?
IAN HUNTLEY
activity.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
activity.
MR LATHAM
that's what malarkey means?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is just a term I used. nonsense, it was a game, it
was just a desperate attempt to avoid the consequences
wasn't it, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
then you are disputing what a lot of doctors say.
MR LATHAM
and it didn't work, did it?
IAN HUNTLEY
what I'm saying is true.
MR LATHAM
it didn't work, the shutting down line, you ended up back
at Woodhill didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I appealed against being in Rampton. I didn't want to
be there, it wasn't my intention to stay. I didn't want
to be there.
MR LATHAM
let's look at what you said in the middle of the page
. Wayne is your brother, isn't he?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
he had been also concerned about you, hadn't he?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, he had.
MR LATHAM
and you were worried that he might be talking to the ideas
and the things that I had seen.
MR LATHAM
You were worried that he might pass on something you said
to him to the police?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wanted the information to come from me rather than him.
MR LATHAM
you were worried that he might pass on information to
the police?
IAN HUNTLEY
for the reason I have just given.
MR LATHAM
let's look at what you said. the middle of the page "what
I need, I need to explain something to you - to you -
the reason it is very important this doesn't come to keep
your powder dry, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
No, I hadn't.
MR LATHAM
"it will help them to build up a prosecution against
me, in fact it will put it will help to put me in prison,
if Wayne goes to the police with what I have told you.
it will help to put me in prison because it means they
will be prepared for it, yes, and they will be coming
up with, because at the moment, they don't know anything.
they don't know anything. they don't know, haven't got
a clue, what I'm going to say to them". You were
going to keep this story up your sleeve, you thought you
had an answer to the prosecution case, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, this was said because I hadn't been able to make a
statement to the police.
MR LATHAM
then the very last thing you dealt with, page 13 onwards?
IAN HUNTLEY
page what, sorry?
MR LATHAM
13. you talk about the pressure you were under during
the last two weeks as a caretaker, don't you? you see
that, just below the first ring binder "I have been
under so much pressure for the last two weeks"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. with the press, I was trying to deal with the police.
I was trying to assist the police all the time knowing
they were at some point going to pull me in for questioning"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
"trying to assist the police during that fortnight"?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had been, yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew perfectly well that you had been lying to the
police for a fortnight didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
at that time, no.
MR LATHAM
I'm sorry, but this - this first memory syndrome is so
sophisticated isn't it, Mr Huntley, that you can remember
now and acknowledge everything that you told the police,
told the police and told your work colleagues, was a lie
the girls died in the house. yet when you are talking
to your mother at this point, you somehow believe that
everything you were saying to the police during the fortnight
was the truth?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I genuinely didn't believe I had done anything
wrong at that time.
MR LATHAM
then at the bottom of page 14, having been running through
your defence with your mother, you say this, two lines
from the bottom "what I need from you lot is some
bloody confidence and faith in me"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
"mum, now I have told you the truth - what I know,
what I have remembered, I don't ever, ever want you to
think again that I might have done this, because I haven't.
I could never hurt anybody, I never have and never will"?
MR LATHAM
that was a bare-faced lie, in front of your own mother,
wasn't it ?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it wasn't.
MR LATHAM
your attitude is encapsulated in the very last thing that
is on this transcript, isn't it? page 15 "if they
are listening" that is listening to what you were
saying to your mother - if for any reason they were, "there
is something I would like to say to them; I'm going to
****
Transcript edited by Sky News
them over when all this is over and I'm going to sue the
***** off them you know - and I am"?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's quite correct, yes, and I meant to. I didn't think
I had done anything wrong at that time.
MR LATHAM
you knew perfectly well what you had and you were just
setting about inventing a clever defence. that's right
isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, its not.
MR LATHAM
we move into this year and the prosecution papers were
formally served upon you and there was a first court appearance,
wasn't there?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
in the early part of this year, all the prosecution papers
which formed the prosecution case at that here?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that would have been early on this year.
MR LATHAM
once the prosecution have set their stall out and explained
on paper what it is which is alleged against you, and
why it alleged against you, a defence case statement has
to be filed, doesn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you know that a defence case statement was filed on your
behalf, don't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. Easter time this year?
IAN HUNTLEY
Easter time this year, no.
MR LATHAM
that's when the defence case statement was served and
you know what is in that defence case statement, don't
you, Mr Huntley, it was served on your behalf by your
lawyers, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not actually aware of what was in the defence case
statement, no.
MR LATHAM
you know in basic terms what was in it, it was a pretty
thin document, eight lines long. "the defendant did
not kill Jessica Chapman or Holly Wells" is the first
thing
MR LATHAM
April of this year?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, then that's right yes.
MR LATHAM
"the defendant did see and speak with the deceased
on the 4th August at his house and last saw them at about
6.15 to 6.30 outside his home"?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
"the defendant did not deposit, or have any part
in the deposition of, the bodies of the deceased at the
site where they were found"?
IAN HUNTLEY
which is true to what I believe it in March/April this
year.
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
"the defendant did not deposit, or have any part
in the deposition of, clothing or possessions of the deceased
in the hangar." during the summer things began to
look difficult for you - that is prosecution served additional
evidence on you, that's right isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes summer time.
MR LATHAM
after hours and hours of work, all the forensic evidence
came through and was served on you and your legal advisers,
wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't actually read those papers until quite late on.
MR LATHAM
no, it came quite late on, but there came a time you were
confronted by geology evidence tying your car to the site?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would have- that would have been September time.
MR LATHAM
and the pollen evidence which tied your car to the site
and tied the petrol can to the site and tied shoes to
the site. that's right isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
of course the Fiesta evidence relating to the tyres, wasn't
there?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
finally, the covert tapes of your conversation with your
mother was served on you as part of the prosecution case,
weren't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, I was aware that conversation may have
MR LATHAM
any thought, thought that someone may have framed you
went out of the window?
IAN HUNTLEY
My memory started to come back before I had seen those
papers, in July.
MR LATHAM
had it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, shortly ----.
MR LATHAM
your memory started to come back in July?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had seen bits and pieces, the bits and pieces before
then, but I can't piece anything together.
MR LATHAM
what I suggest to you by the time the prosecution
IAN HUNTLEY
I had not thought of any defence.
MR LATHAM
so Ian Huntley has had to come up with an entirely new
defence?
IAN HUNTLEY
what I have come here with this truth.
MR LATHAM
sunday, 4th August Sadie ran off?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
there came a time you were looking for her in your car?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
you collected the video or the DVD?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you went shopping, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I went shopping on the Saturday.
MR LATHAM
just before 6.30, the dog came back?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was actually about 6 o'clock time.
MR LATHAM
6. in a dreadful mess?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was, yes.
MR LATHAM
burs, covered in mud and wet?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
such that you wouldn't let her anywhere, other than locking
her in the cloakroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
the downstairs toilet.
MR LATHAM
the downstairs toilet, because having her running around
anywhere in the house in that condition would have turned
the house into a total mess, wouldn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it is easier to clean one room than the whole house.
MR LATHAM
at 6.24, Maxine Carr telephoned you, didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
we know now that that on any view must have been before
you saw or had any contact with the girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
one of the topics of conversation was the fact u?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was annoyed.
MR LATHAM
do you like to control people, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't control Maxine, Maxine has a very strong mind
of her own.
MR LATHAM
a strong mind, she has a will of her own?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
she certainly indicated she was going out on that night,
didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, if that's what she did.
MR LATHAM
she was out of your control in that sense, wasn't
MR LATHAM
did that irritate you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was annoyed she was going out again, yes and I know
what Maxine can be like when she has had a few drinks.
MR LATHAM
I would like you----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I didn't hear that last answer?
IAN HUNTLEY
I know what Maxine can be like when she has had a few
drinks.
MR LATHAM
you know what she is like when she has had a few drinks?
bundle, again, I think it is flagged for you with the
blue flag, Members of the Jury, it is transcript which
is 11 pages in all, the second of Maxine Carr's telephone
conversation with Mrs Huntley.
MR LATHAM
where is the television in the house, there is a small
one in the area between the dining room and kitchen, isn't
there?
IAN HUNTLEY
I think it was kept on the small table in the kitchen.
MR LATHAM
there's the small television there?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, she has moved it.
MR LATHAM
I accept that's the sort of thing that can be moved but
it is the television for use in the kitchen/in the dining
room isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that last time I remember seeing it was on the small
table with the two metal legs is the kitchen.
MR LATHAM
it is not the main television, there is another television
in the living room
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, that's right.
MR LATHAM
that television is for use downstairs in the dining room
or in the kitchen, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. between Maxine and your mother? I want you to comment
upon it if you will, please?
IAN HUNTLEY
page 6?
MR LATHAM
page 6?
IAN HUNTLEY
it only goes up to page 5.
MR LATHAM
page 6 is what - I am sorry if you have the first one,
it is the last one I'm asking you about which is a transcript
which should end with page 11.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
the end of the bundle, the last page.
MR LATHAM
the last page in the entire bundle should be page 11.
I do not know if Mr Huntley wants a break now? (Short
adjournment)
MR LATHAM
my Lord , I understand the stenographer is having considerable
difficulty in recording some of Mr Huntley's answers,
she is finding it very difficult to hear, I thought I
had better mention it because sometimes the answers trail
away a bit.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I know it is difficult.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, I want you to look at Maxine's version of
what was said in that conversation so that you can tell
us what you have to say about it, please. you will find
the transcript now is open at page 6. Do you have
IAN HUNTLEY
yes I do. .
MR LATHAM
this is the second of the conversations that Maxine Carr
had with your mother when she was at Holloway. do you
see the time, 10.08, near the first ring?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
then she has it the wrong way round. She says "He
rang me" but she is talking about this 6.24 conversation,
because it was the only one you had that evening wasn't
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it was. that's right, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
'I have got some cans of lager. I didn't expect you were
going out tonight, I thought you would stay in and watch
a video', and I said, 'Well, my mum ain't got any videos'
and he said, 'Okay then'". so up to that point that
right is it, not word for word, but that's the general
initial topic?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, yes I believe so.
MR LATHAM
let's look at what she then says has happened on this
call then "I mean, he brought Sadie, he brought Sadie
all I could hear was the TV"?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was actually stood on the doorstep when I received that
call.
MR LATHAM
precisely. I want you to think about this and tell us
whether she is right or wrong. if she is right that she
could hear the television then you would have had to have
been either in the sitting room watching the sitting room
television or you would be in the dining room or the kitchen,
wouldn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
so "He was in the house and he brought Sadie to she
was rolling over and I heard her barking. she was - he
was in the house". If Sadie was in the kitchen or
in the living room or in the dining room at 6.24, she
wasn't covered in mud and she wasn't soaking wet, was
she?
IAN HUNTLEY
this is incorrect.
MR LATHAM
it is incorrect?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
she has got that completely wrong?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she has. I was saying Sadie's name for her to respond
to the telephone, but I wasn't calling her.
MR LATHAM
it won't fit with the sound of the television in the background,
would it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wasn't near the television.
MR LATHAM
that is 6.24 it may help if you have the other file with
you, not to look at it all the time, but the green file.
tab 2, the chronology. From time to time I'm going to
look at this chronology with you, Mr Huntley. if you go
to page 5 of the chronology you will see where we have
got to. all right. 18.24 you see that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
The telephone. it was two and a quarter minutes long which
would take us to 6.26, wouldn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and something. So that call ends a couple of minutes before
the girls walk across the car park, CCTV?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
so after you had had the telephone call with Maxine you
were outside, you tell us, starting to brush the dog?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was continuing to brush.
MR LATHAM
continuing to brush the dog down? did you have the choke
chain on the dog? LATHAM were you just holding the dog
in one hand while you were brushing the dog?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's the way I usually do.
MR LATHAM
the dog was absolutely sopping wet and muddy, was she?
IAN HUNTLEY
She was mucky, yes, and I restrained her with my hand.
MR LATHAM
what did you have on at the time?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had my yellow shirt on and my beige jeans.
MR LATHAM
yellow shirt, a long sleeved shirt?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is a long sleeved shirt yes.
IAN HUNTLEY
my hand.
MR LATHAM
come on, this is a huge dog you have been telling us about
the size of this dog and you are trying to brush her down
and you just showed us your arm round it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
long sleeved?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
it is the light yellow shirt?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
you would have been got it absolutely filthy?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is possible I would have got some muck in
MR LATHAM
possible, you would have been absolutely filthy doing
this in a long sleeved ordinary shirt?
IAN HUNTLEY
no I disagree.
MR LATHAM
we know that if you are doing what you say you were doing,
the girls must have walked pretty much past your house
at about 6.31, mustn't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
according to this, yes.
MR LATHAM
well, according to the evidence, the unchallenged evidence,
Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
because we know that the witnesses Greenwood and
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and it takes something less than a minute to drive from
that car park into College Road -- we have all been there,
it is just a matter of 100 yards or so?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it's not far.
MR LATHAM
they left under the CCTV 18.31, which would put them in
College Road at 18.32, wouldn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and they saw the girls on their right hand side walking
up College Road ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
so they must have come past your house having come out
of the front of the sports centre and across in
MR LATHAM
which is the very moment you are getting the text message?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you read it straight away?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe so, yes.
MR LATHAM
and they would have been there for you to see, wouldn't
they, those girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't see them, no.
MR LATHAM
so they walked right past your house, on up College Road
and must have turned round and come back down College
Road, mustn't they ? you accept they came to your door?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I said that.
MR LATHAM
they would have got to your door at 6.33 or 6.34 on that
timing wouldn't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
to ask about Maxine or Miss Carr as they described her?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and when did you use the words "Plonk your bums on
there", before or after the nosebleed started?
IAN HUNTLEY
that would have been after.
MR LATHAM
after? when you decided to go in and get some tissues?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
which of the two girls was it that had the nosebleed?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was Holly.
MR LATHAM
of course, we know, don't we, that Maxine knew these girls
very well?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
we know that now?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
worked out with them, day by day, Monday to Friday. we
know that, don't we?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
she would have had no difficulty whatsoever giving any
description of these two girls named Holly and Jessica
in distinguishing?
IAN HUNTLEY
That's right.
MR LATHAM
Jessica with the darker hair, Holly with the blonde hair?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I would think so.
MR LATHAM
let's look at that telephone conversation with your mother
again, shall we? page 5, the centre of the page. you agree
that you did tell Maxine about the nosebleed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes I did.
MR LATHAM
the middle of the page, page 56, "....and explained
everything to them about what Ian had told me. e one with
the nosebleed, the dark haired one." . MR COWARD
my Lord with respect it reads "the one with the nosebleed,
comma."
MR LATHAM
I will read that again. I will then read the next passage
"the one with the nosebleed, the dark haired one,
and all that ... and that it had stopped and then they
had gone." then let's look at page 8.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
what page is that?
MR LATHAM
5, at 8.56. the bottom of the page at 14.47 they both
went up upstairs, both of the girls, and he said "there
was nowhere else for her to sit so he she sat on the edge
of our bed." you told Maxine the girl with the nose
bleed was the dark haired one?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, she is mistaken.
MR LATHAM
you talked about blond girl and a dark girl who were known
to be Holly and Jessica. She would have known at once
Jessica was the dark haired and Holly the blonde?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she would.
MR LATHAM
you have heard your evidence again. Now that you have
discovered that, Holly had some time before had a couple
of nosebleeds, hadn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, that information didn't come out until police found
out I had said Holly had had a nosebleed.
MR LATHAM
I know, but what I am suggesting you told Maxine it was
the dark haired girl?
MR LATHAM
you went upstairs, was there no kitchen towel in the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
we don't have kitchen towel.
MR LATHAM
and you took the dog indoors and locked the dog in the
cloakroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
didn't lock her in, I shut her in.
MR LATHAM
how was Jessica with the dog?
IAN HUNTLEY
how was Jessica with the dog?
MR LATHAM
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know. she had no problem with the
IAN HUNTLEY
they were stood at back of the car.
MR LATHAM
nevertheless, this was a large dog not on a lead, that's
right isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you took the dog into the house, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
and emerged with some lavatory paper?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the two girls were sitting on the rim of the boot?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct. some tissue?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
had you wet it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I hadn't.
MR LATHAM
dry tissue?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it was.
MR LATHAM
then explain to us again how it is that you invited them
into your house?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was threatening rain.
MR LATHAM
threatening rain?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, and also Holly's nosebleed looked to be getting slightly
worse.
MR LATHAM
was it raining?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember if it was drizzling or not but it was
certainly black overhead.
MR LATHAM
you knew they were local girls, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
local to Soham, obviously?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
we know that Jessica had a telephone on her, don't we?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, what does a ten year old girl do if she has
got a nosebleed and she is two or three-hundred yards
or 400 yards from home?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't speak for what two ten year old girls would do.
MR LATHAM
grapple with reality, Mr Huntley, what does a ten year
old who finds she has a nosebleed do?
IAN HUNTLEY
get some tissue I would suppose.
MR LATHAM
and she goes home, doesn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
possibly.
MR LATHAM
or she rings home, doesn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
possibly.
MR LATHAM
she had only just a matter of minutes earlier come out
of the sports centre, hadn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
were you somebody who was known to her?
IAN HUNTLEY
they had seen me on the field.
MR LATHAM
no sense of knowing your name and you knowing their names?
IAN HUNTLEY
it turns out they knew who I was.
MR LATHAM
yes, who you were, the caretaker of the other
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, Maxine's partner.
MR LATHAM
yes. and you are saying, are you, that they were more
than happy to come into your house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you have just taken your dog into that house, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
and secured her in the downstairs toilet.
MR LATHAM
how were they to know that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I am sure they could have seen the downstairs toilet is
right by the front door, just to the side.
MR LATHAM
both the girls knew the rules that applied to girls
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you accept, I take it, that for them to come into into
your house, a man who was not even a friend of theirs,
would be inappropriate for them, wouldn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
possibly.
MR LATHAM
when there was the alternative of the sports centre 100
yards away?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, possibly.
MR LATHAM
you knew the rules, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were asked about them at interview and gave
IAN HUNTLEY
which interview?
MR LATHAM
the interview when you applied for the job?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that was with regard ----.
MR LATHAM
it was a specific concern of Mrs Bryden and those who
interviewed you, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, and when that situation arose I did exactly the right
thing.
MR LATHAM
you knew about Michael C******,
Transcript edited by Sky News
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
that he had been seen with girls, youngish girls going
in and out of that very house that you lived in? middle
of the night sort of thing.
MR LATHAM
but he had been dismissed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you felt you had had some inappropriate attention
from a pupil at one of the schools didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
from Soham College, yes.
MR LATHAM
yes, and you dealt with the thing at arms length and very
cautiously, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
you knew there was no other adult in the house, didn't
you?
MR LATHAM
yet you invited two ten year old girls into the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you lead there Mr Huntley when you got into
the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
into the living room.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible)?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was too tempting.
MR LATHAM
10 year old girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
if you mean what I think you mean, no.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible)?
MR LATHAM
"I didn't know Holly suffered with nosebleeds until
after." You (inaudible) the girls into that house
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't I told you.
MR LATHAM
did you tell them Maxine was in the house to get them
in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
no. I told them Maxine had gone away for a few days.
MR LATHAM
they would have felt absolutely safe coming into the house
if they thought they were going into see Miss Carr
IAN HUNTLEY
It turns out, yes.
MR LATHAM
you realise the problem you say (inaudible) got on your
hands, namely a girl with a nosebleed, which was not getting
better, why didn't you say, let's ring your mother, let's
ring home?
IAN HUNTLEY
it isn't what I would call a bad nosebleed.
MR LATHAM
you can't have it both ways. you are inviting them into
your home now?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, to help.
MR LATHAM
but why didn't you say, do you want me to ring
IAN HUNTLEY
I just didn't.
MR LATHAM
it is the obvious thing to do if you are telling the truth?
IAN HUNTLEY
is that the obvious thing to do?
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
Its the obvious thing to do, its your opinion.
MR LATHAM
to say a little girl has a nosebleed and you know she's
local do you want me to ring your mummy?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had basic first aid knowledge and I thought I could
help, which is what I tried to do.
MR LATHAM
was she dripping blood?
MR LATHAM
and you took her in what onto your carpets?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
you took her in onto your carpets?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had not seen any drops of blood outside, besides there
was drops of blood all over the carpets from Sadie when
she's in season.
MR LATHAM
why did you take them into the sitting room rather than
into the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
there is seats in the living room.
MR LATHAM
you don't need seats, there is a girl with a nosebleed,
you are not having a social chit chat on your version?
IAN HUNTLEY
if I took them into the kitchen, you would be saying why
did take them into the kitchen and not the Iiving room.
MR LATHAM
what I'm suggesting to you, rather different that you
lead them(?) into the sitting room pretending Maxine was
in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't pretend Maxine was in the house.
MR LATHAM
what was the only reason (inaudible) girls were in the
house, what was it?
IAN HUNTLEY
to help with the nose bleed.
MR LATHAM
why didn't you go into the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know why we didn't go into the kitchen, we didn't
go into the kitchen later on because the sink was full
of pots, but at that point the living room seemed most
appropriate place to go.
MR LATHAM
I will come to the sink a minute; is there any more in
the living room?
IAN HUNTLEY
any water.
MR LATHAM
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, there isn't but there is no tissue----
MR LATHAM
is there tissue in the (inaudible)?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, neither in the (inaudible)
MR LATHAM
why didn't you take her into the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I took her into the living room.
MR LATHAM
the one thing you need, if you have a nosebleed, is a
sink and running water, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew the rules - if you are going to have two ten
year-old girls in your house, the safest place to have
them is in the kitchen, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know why you say that, no.
MR LATHAM
you don't know why I say that?
IAN HUNTLEY
No.
MR LATHAM
you think it is just as safe to have them in your bedroom?
MR LATHAM
I'm putting to you that a safe and indeed sensible place
to take them - if you are telling the truth - is the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
no - because of the sink.
MR LATHAM
You couldn't take them into the kitchen because the sink
was full of stuff?
IAN HUNTLEY
pots.
MR LATHAM
pots, how many?
IAN HUNTLEY
there would have been pots from Saturday's breakfast,
dinner, tea, and supper when I came back----
MR LATHAM
By pots you are meaning what, bowls, plates and
MR LATHAM
did you have a washing-up bowl in the sink?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
how long do you think it would have taken to lift the
items in the sink on to the draining board, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
It didn't, it didn't cross my mind.
MR LATHAM
have a look at this kitchen. there is a worktop right
the way along that wall, isn't there?
IAN HUNTLEY
there is, yes.
MR LATHAM
in an emergency, which you are telling us this was, it
would have taken but a moment to clear a space by that
sink so that Holly could stand in front of it with running
water and somewhere where, if she was dripping blood,
the blood would drip into a basin, a sink; that's right
isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I'm not telling you this was an emergency.
MR LATHAM
What other reason, on your version of events, could there
be for inviting two ten year-olds into your house?
IAN HUNTLEY
To help with the nose bleed.
MR LATHAM
then it didn't seem to be getting better as you sat on
the sofa in the living room?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it didn't seem to be getting better. HUNTLEY go to
the bathroom.
MR LATHAM
take them upstairs?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, to the bathroom.
MR LATHAM
that is wholly inappropriate, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
wouldn't it have thought so to a bathroom, no.
MR LATHAM
upstairs in a house, apart from the bathroom what others
rooms are there?
IAN HUNTLEY
the spare room, the room used for the rats and the master
bedroom.
MR LATHAM
a bedroom with a bed in it?
MR LATHAM
into the bathroom you took them ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
how bad was this nosebleed at this point?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would say it was particularly bad.
MR LATHAM
the detail?
IAN HUNTLEY
I couldn't give you detail, I wouldn't say it was particularly
bad.
MR LATHAM
had she handed tissue back to you you had used?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, in the toilet.
MR LATHAM
how many?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe there was two or three. several pieces folded
together?
IAN HUNTLEY
several pieces folded together.
MR LATHAM
and of course according to your story there is water in
the bath, isn't there?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
remind us again, how much water?
IAN HUNTLEY
about 6 to 8 inches.
MR LATHAM
6 to 8 inches? you heard your counsel cross-examining
Dr Cary when he gave evidence?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I said 18 inches.
MR LATHAM
your counsel is hugely experienced you know that, don't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
are you saying he plucked 18 inches of the sky to put
to Dr cary?
IAN HUNTLEY
(?) No, when we were discussing that I gestured with my
hands how much water was in the bath and said approximately
half full to under half full about 18 inches.
MR LATHAM
I'm not entitled to ask you what passed between Mr Coward
and you in conference, that's privileged.
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
he made the observation that it would be a pretty stupid
thing to do to have a completely full bath if you were
going to wash a dog, didn't he?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, and I would agree.
MR LATHAM
having heard that, you are you saying the 18 inch concept
was a non-starter didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I never said on any occasion it was 18 inches.
MR LATHAM
you have just tailored your story again haven't you? inches.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I think Dr Cary also said the overflow was 11 inches?
MR LATHAM
yes and you saw the demonstration with the tape measure
on the table here didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
you are standing facing the basin?
IAN HUNTLEY
toilet, basin, yes. basin, correct?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, Holly is sat just to the right of the sink, slightly
facing towards the left.
MR LATHAM
so if she wanted to, she could have leaned her head over
the basin?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
can I say out of the picture in the sense she is (inaudible)?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she is the door side of the bath.
MR LATHAM
you are standing facing the lavatory pan so that you can
reach the loo roll on the top of the cistern? (inaudible)
paper under the tap before handing her paper as a form
of cold compress, is that what you are saying?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't say exactly, but yes.
MR LATHAM
handing one or two compresses back to you she has used
and you are dropping them into the pan?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
and it is so confined that you have only got to put your
hand like that and you are touching your right hand against
the wall?
IAN HUNTLEY
Correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
and the left hand you could put to her forehead,
MR LATHAM
its?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
it is tiny that bathroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
It is tiny, yes.
MR LATHAM
how is the nosebleed going according to you at this point?
IAN HUNTLEY
after Jessica had been to the toilet and we had gone back
into the bathroom.
MR LATHAM
no no I don't want to go there yet, this is the
IAN HUNTLEY
there was blood on the tissues.
MR LATHAM
yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
Can't say.
MR LATHAM
this was not happening in silence, you were concerned,
were you?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
"how are you, all right, is it getting any better?",
are you asking all that sort of thing?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I don't think I was.
MR LATHAM
why not?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember the basic discussion taking place. I
just remember something about (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
if you have a bad nosebleed you can feel the blood going
down the back of your mouth?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know.
MR LATHAM
was the blood dripping onto her clothing, for example?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
so it wasn't a terribly bad nosebleed?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, that's what I said.
MR LATHAM
did you seem to be getting somewhere with the treatment?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would say it wasn't getting any worse.
MR LATHAM
then Jessica said she wanted to use the lavatory?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
it wasn't a three year old, was it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
she was a girl with a nosebleed, according to you, that
was your problem?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't see a problem with Jessica visiting the toilet.
MR LATHAM
the problem you had on your hands is a girl with a nosebleed,
isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you were trying to help her to stop the nosebleed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
it is the sort of thing which is either solved pretty
quickly or is more serious and needs some sort of longer
term help, doesn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes to be honest I don't have much experience with nosebleeds.
MR LATHAM
and, as I say, this was not a three year old, this was
a ten year old, suddenly says in the middle all of this
"Can I use the lavatory"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
or "Can I use the toilet?". if this is true,
Mr Huntley, you would have simply said just hang on a
minute, let's solve this problem first, wouldn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
if Jessica's - if Jessica needed the toilet----.
MR LATHAM
as I said, this is not a three year old, she is a ten
year old and she is watching her friend with a problem,
isn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't speak for the mind of ten year old girls.
MR LATHAM
you have invented this, haven't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I haven't.
MR LATHAM
let me suggest to you why you invented this episode, because
you have got to explain somehow you think what the fibres
are doing in your bedroom, haven't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I said about Holly going into the bedroom a LATHAM you
were worried at the time you spoke about Holly going into
the bedroom, you were worried they were going to find
DNA traces in the bedroom, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
because that is where it all happened, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
you thought it was appropriate, did you, to leave Jessica,
to shut the door behind her, and take this ten year old
down to your bedroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, to sit down. There is nowhere to sit up there.
IAN HUNTLEY
I just thought it appropriate with her having a nosebleed.
MR LATHAM
appropriate to take her into your bedroom and sit her
down on the bed?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I accept that to take a ten year old girl into a
bedroom is not appropriate, I accept that.
MR LATHAM
of course you thought it was wholly appropriate at the
time because this is what you wanted to do?
IAN HUNTLEY
I took her into the bedroom for her to have a seat while
Jessica visited the toilet.
MR LATHAM
and did you sit down on the bed as well? You initially
said when you came to leave the bedroom, that you both
got up off the bed, then you corrected it and said just
her?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was a slip, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
there is an lot of pressure when you are stood up here,
it is very difficult to get things right word for word.
MR LATHAM
did she bleed on to the bed?
IAN HUNTLEY
one drop, she sat on to the bed it went on to the sheet,
which she apologised for.
IAN HUNTLEY
we went back into the bathroom.
MR LATHAM
why didn't you take her back downstairs when Jessica wanted
to use the loo?
IAN HUNTLEY
because we would be going back into the bathroom.
MR LATHAM
why couldn't you take her back downstairs, it was getting
better at this stage anyway, you told us?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it was.
MR LATHAM
it was the last room in the house you should have gone
into with that girl?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes I agree but at that time I thought both ...
MR LATHAM
It's where you wanted her, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it's not. what you are implying is not true and its
not what happened.
MR LATHAM
you have lied from start to finish in this case, haven't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I haven't.
MR LATHAM
so you took her back along the landing and took her for
a tour of the house, a sight-seeing tour?
IAN HUNTLEY
No, it wasn't a sight-seeing tour.
MR LATHAM
you took her into the third bedroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't take her into the third bedroom. I stayed out
on the landing, I didn't go into that room.
IAN HUNTLEY
no one of them asked why that room was empty, why there
is no carpet.
MR LATHAM
they both went in there did they?
IAN HUNTLEY
They both went in there, yes.
MR LATHAM
So Jessica finished?
IAN HUNTLEY
when we heard the chain go we walked back out onto the
landing and Jessica came out of the bathroom and also
walked onto the landing. We were coming from the other
end of the landing.
MR LATHAM
Back into the bathroom?
MR LATHAM
Holly's nosebleed and virtually stop by that stage?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was much better, yes, there weren't much blood on the
tissue.
MR LATHAM
what is about to happen is a pair of accidents, is that
right?
IAN HUNTLEY
one was an accident and the other wasn't deliberate.
MR LATHAM
if something isn't deliberate, it is accidental. Are you
saying they were both accidents?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would say that one died as a result of my inability
to act, and the other died as a direct result of my actions.
MR LATHAM
they both died as a direct result of your actions because
you wanted them both dead?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't want them both dead, didn't want either of them
dead.
MR LATHAM
she sat down pretty much where she had been sitting before?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
with her feet touching the ground?
IAN HUNTLEY
probably, I don't know.
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, Jessica sat down.
MR LATHAM
and you walked back to where you had been before?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
the dog had not been in the bathroom, yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
no she had not.
MR LATHAM
you had not had a bath in the previous hour, had you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no .
MR LATHAM
so the floor was dry?
IAN HUNTLEY
unless any water dripped from the tissue.
MR LATHAM
apart from the odd drip of water from the tissue, please,
Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know how I slipped, tripped, I don't know whether
it was a slip or trip or anything.
MR
LATHAM
what is there there to trip over?
IAN HUNTLEY
only a bath mat.
MR LATHAM
had you started to get another piece of lavatory paper?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I have done.
MR LATHAM
had you actually got it wet?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I believe so.
MR LATHAM
so you had already got to the point where you were standing,
as it were, with one foot pretty much in (inaudible) the
pan of the lavatory and the other foot right hand tap
on the basin, would that be about right?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would have been stood where the toilet is, leaning into
the sink.
MR LATHAM
I can't hear you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would have been stood where the toilet is, turning to
my left.
MR LATHAM
yes, and you turned to your left?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you had no need to move your feet at all, do you, because
she is there?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know what happened.
IAN HUNTLEY
that's the truth.
MR LATHAM
you slipped and knocked her? how hard did you bump into
her?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't say I had bumped into her, I don't know whether
I made contact or not.
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