Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman - Documents 02/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Tuesday, 02 December 2003 SKY News Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear. Page 01 02 03 MR HUBBARD I'm not going to be long, Mr Huntley. yesterday, you told the Jury "I asked Maxine if she thought I was responsible", she told me not to be daft? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR HUBBARD in fact, I suggest, you asked Maxine whether she thought you could have done more on the story you gave her? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know what you mean. MR HUBBARD didn't you say to Maxine after you explained that the girls had come inside and walked away----. MR JUSTICE MOSES just pause - it is quite impossible with this noise. can you deal with it? go on. MR HUBBARD Mr Huntley, after you told Maxine that the girls had come into the house and then had walked away, you asked her, I suggest, whether she thought you could have done more? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't , I asked her if she thought I had done it. MR HUBBARD and the other matter on the Monday morning in the early hours, sometime after four o'clock, police sergeant Pauline Nelson has told us that she asked you at the end of her conversation "Where is your partner?", she told you your reply was, "why?". IAN HUNTLEY she didn't ask that question, I wasn't even with her at four o'clock, I was in Beechurst from 3.30 onwards. MR HUBBARD the other matter, a fireman, Mr Fordham, told us that on that Monday, sometime around 9.15/9.30 in the evening, you said to him "I have got to go now, my Mrs has got my dinner ready"? IAN HUNTLEY no, I told him my tea was getting cold I had been to purchase fish and chips or something from the chip shop. MR HUBBARD he told us you said "My Mrs...."? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't say that. MR HUBBARD what time that Monday did you speak to Ruth Oddy about the possibility of getting Maxine to give an alibi? IAN HUNTLEY that would have been about 11 o'clock Monday morning, half ten, 11 o'clock. MR HUBBARD did you actually say to her "I want to get Maxine home so she can give me an alibi"? IAN HUNTLEY no, didn't say that. I just spoke to Ruth about the possibility of getting Maxine to give me an alibi. MR HUBBARD as best as you can, what were your words to her, how did the conversation start? IAN HUNTLEY I can't really recall how the conversation started, all I can do really is summarise what the conversation was about. MR HUBBARD later, did she visit you in your house, later that Monday? IAN HUNTLEY yes, she did, Monday tea time, I think it was. MR HUBBARD that's it. were you doing a bit of cleaning to the carpets? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I was hoovering. MR HUBBARD and using some Shake and Vac? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct, yes. MR HUBBARD whereabouts in the house were you Hoovering, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY the living room, hallway, and the stairway. MR JUSTICE MOSES we'll pause now until we get this amplification, I'm not having this cross-examination with the echoes. MR LATHAM my Lord, it sounds to me as if the volume is slightly louder than it has been thus far. MR JUSTICE MOSES it always is when Mr Hubbard cross-examines but it does need sorting out. I'm very sorry, Mr Huntley. let's just check to get it right because it is hopelessly distracting. (Short adjournment) MR JUSTICE MOSES yes, Mr Latham. MR LATHAM before the overdose, try as you might, you couldn't remember what happened; is that what you are telling us? IAN HUNTLEY I was seeing different things, yes. MR LATHAM seeing different things. but try as I might you couldn't remember what had happened. Is that what you are saying? IAN HUNTLEY I thought at times what I was seeing as well as actually remembering (at times I was seeing rather than actually remembering). MR LATHAM what you told us yesterday when you came back from Milton Keynes Hospital you didn't continue to strive to remember, you just made mum and dad a promise that you would get yourself through to this trial so that you could tell Holly and Jessica's parents the truth? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct, yes. MR LATHAM so all your efforts have been designed to help Holly and Jessica's parents? IAN HUNTLEY not entirely, no. MR LATHAM all your efforts have been designed to help you, haven't they? IAN HUNTLEY partly. MR LATHAM because from start to finish in this case you have been looking after yourself, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I haven't. MR LATHAM you don't care what effect it has on anyone else, do you? IAN HUNTLEY that's not true. MR LATHAM by relaxing after you got back from Milton Keynes hospital things started the come back? IAN HUNTLEY it weren't a case of relaxing, it was just changing my approach. MR LATHAM changing your approach? things started to come back? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that's correct. MR LATHAM I would like you to, in the light of the partial motive to help those two sets of parents , I would like you to go to the grey file which is in front of you, to the first tab , if you will, where you will find the transcripts of the interviews that took place with various media outfits. I would like you to go to page 8, if you will, which is the second page of the transcripts of the BBC Look East interview of 10th August. Have you got page 8? that's the 10th August - you see that at page 7? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM go over the page, and the second hole from for the ring binder, do you see your words "yes, the police haven't really said anything". Have you found that? IAN HUNTLEY Sorry, where is that. MR LATHAM the second ring binder hole "yes, the police haven't really said anything." Have you got that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM "they have been around, they have taken a statement, it has been confirmed as an accurate sighting and I'm sure that helps them to retrace the steps of the children"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM lying, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because, far from helping them retrace the steps of the children, what you had done was designed to confuse, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY it wasn't designed to confuse, it was just a lie to ----- MR LATHAM it was designed to put the police off the scent, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, that's correct. MR LATHAM the motive was what? IAN HUNTLEY so that the police didn't know that I was responsible. MR LATHAM yes, to protect Ian Huntley, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and your next answer "I see Mr Kevin Wells, I believe it was Wednesday morning", that is the 7th August, Wednesday morning after the press conference, "and I had a brief chat with him just to say that basically I hoped everything turns out okay and, you know, that the kids return safely home and that was all that was really said. obviously Kev was really very distressed and talking to a lot of people". So you had a chat with Kev, did you, on the 7th August, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and when you said to him that you hoped everything turns out okay, turns out okay for whom? IAN HUNTLEY it was just what I said. MR LATHAM it was inexcusable that, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and it was done to portray an image to benefit you, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were playing with the emotions of that parent solely in order to benefit your own position, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I weren't intentionally playing with anyone's emotions. MR LATHAM over the page "it is very upsetting, you know, and to think I might be the last friendly face that these two girls had to speak to". You said that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you regard yourself, now the memories come rushing back, do you regard yourself as being a friendly face in relation to those two girls? IAN HUNTLEY I was a friendly face, yes. MR LATHAM I see. because, you see, on that Wednesday when you spoke to Kevin Wells it wasn't as though you were placed in a corner when you had to say something; you actively sought him out, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I wanted to say sorry to him. MR LATHAM what you said - well we have seen what you said - but you went out and sought him out, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did say to him, "Sorry, I didn't know it was your daughter." MR LATHAM because on that same page, your previous answer "Kev didn't approach me, I actually went and approached Kev"? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that's correct. MR LATHAM let's look at the last words from you before your arrest that we know about, Mr Huntley. will you go to page 18 of this set of transcripts? this is the interview you gave on the morning of the 16th August. have you got that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM your first words in that interview "I'm gutted as I'm sure a lot of people in Soham are". Gutted about what? IAN HUNTLEY personally, I was gutted about what had happened but nobody else knew that. MR LATHAM you were actually expressing there, were you, the fact that you were gutted that you had ended up being responsible for the deaths of these two girls? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that's what you meant by that, was it? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not quite sure if that's what I meant at that time. MR LATHAM of course you didn't, you were pretending weren't you? you go on again about being the last person to speak to them don't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM The next sentence "I keep reliving that conversation and thinking perhaps something different could have been said. perhaps kept the them here a little longer, maybe changed events"? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I'm well aware of the lies that I told. MR LATHAM it was a bare faced lie, as had been the entire fortnight, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY some of it, yes. MR LATHAM all of it was, to every person you spoke, you told a lie, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY some of it was lies. MR LATHAM and then at the second ring binder "overall , I thought we are coping quite well, the overall view seems to be that while there is no news there is still a glimmer of hope and I would go along with that"? IAN HUNTLEY I was expressing the views of other people that had been speaking about the case. MR LATHAM and "I would go along with that"? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that's what I said. MR LATHAM so "You have still got hope? yes, yes", words uttered by you - the person that had dumped those two bodies in the ditch, Mr Huntley, and you knew when you said that you had, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did. MR LATHAM yes. yet you could stand and face the camera and face the interviewer and tell bare faced lies because that's what they are? IAN HUNTLEY didn't want to do those interviews. MR LATHAM but you did them, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY they didn't leave me much choice. MR LATHAM you were arrested, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM very shortly after that interview, and off to Rampton you went as a result of your behaviour. that's right, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct. MR LATHAM as early as the 10th September, while you were at Rampton, the prosecution served upon your lawyers the very first case summary, setting out in a couple of pages the nature of the case against you, didn't they? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't see any paperwork for quite sometime. MR LATHAM 26th September, Maxine Carr's interview transcripts were served upon your legal advisers, weren't they? IAN HUNTLEY like I said, didn't see any papers for quite some time. MR LATHAM on the 3rd October, the first of Mr Lamb's statement dealing with the initial, the initial results of the forensic examination was served upon your legal advisers. that's right isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I can't say, I don't know when they were served. MR LATHAM you knew, you knew by the end of September and into early October, the nature of the case against you at that point, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM you knew about the geography problem that the bodies had been found at a place very very close to where your parents used to live, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM you knew about the geography problem? IAN HUNTLEY from the legal papers you mean? MR LATHAM from what you had learned either from what had been served on your legal advisers, or you had been told. you knew there was a geography problem. You understand what I mean by geography problem? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you knew that didn't you in early October? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. I don't know when the papers were served on me, but it was later than that. You would have to check with my legal team. MR LATHAM I have just been through what I am putting to you, that you had the first prosecution case summary as early as middle of September? IAN HUNTLEY my legal team may have done, I didn't. MR LATHAM You knew the prosecution had found the bin with the clothes in, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that I did know. MR LATHAM you knew there were fingerprints on the bin liner of yours, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did. MR LATHAM you knew there were hairs in the bin which could be linked to you, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were told fibres matching the red shirts had been found in your car? IAN HUNTLEY that was later on. MR LATHAM you knew that by the early part of October I suggest? IAN HUNTLEY No, it would have been later than that. MR LATHAM well, we'll see in a minute. in fact, that was incorrect, that there were matching red fibres inside the car, wasn't it, as the prosecution later revealed to you when the chemical tests were done. do you remember Mr Lamb describing that when he gave evidence in this Court Room? IAN HUNTLEY I remember my legal team saying something about it had turned out not to be what they thought or something. MR LATHAM yes, but the belief was because they had not done the chemical tests in early October, was that they had found matching fibres in the car, so you knew, didn't you, in early October, that it was being alleged that there were red matching fibres in your car? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure when I became aware of that; I may have been. MR LATHAM that was the state of the prosecution case in early October, what I have just been through, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I really can't say for early October. MR LATHAM you knew and you understood it perfectly well, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY when it was put to me, it was put to me later than that, some of those things. MR LATHAM on 8th October, after a full medical assessment at Rampton Secure Hospital, you were transferred into the prison system, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM the normal prison system? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM where you have been ever since, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so now, early October, you are in Woodhill Prison, correct? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and on the 23rd October, a short time after you arrived there, you were visited by your mother, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I have had many visits from my mother. MR LATHAM yes, but on 23rd October you know you were visited by her because there is a transcript of the conversation you had with your mother? IAN HUNTLEY yes , I know it was some time in October. MR LATHAM by that date, you had read or been told and absorbed what the prosecution case was at that stage, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, my legal team gave me the information whilst I was at Woodhill. MR LATHAM let's look at what you and your mother talked about, if we may. it is the last tab in the bundle, it has already been pre-marked for you. I think you will find it is a yellow mark for me. members of the Jury, it is tab 8. The first document is the telephone call transcript, which is about 5 pages long, and you come to the Woodhill transcript. can I ask you to get to the first page of that? have you got it, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM page 1, your words "they want to re-start the investigation because they had got nothing." that's referring to the police, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes it will be. MR LATHAM I have seen the deposition papers? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you had seen by 23rd October the statements which had been served on your solicitors, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct, it was given to me after I arrived at Woodhill. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY they was given to me after I arrived at Woodhill. MR LATHAM so you had seen the deposition papers. there is that thing with the what they found at the college, yes. that's the bin you are referring to, isn't it? the thing they found at the college was the bin, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and then "supposed tapings of my car". supposed. not the only time have you used that word, is it? IAN HUNTLEY I couldn't say. MR LATHAM you used it to the hitchhiker, didn't you, that woman who supposedly saw the girls. do you remember saying that to the hitchhiker? IAN HUNTLEY I don't recall it. MR LATHAM you knew that that hitchhiker, when you were talking to the hitchhiker, you knew that that woman who had supposedly seen the girls on the Monday was wrong, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY in the course of those two weeks I did, yes. MR LATHAM when you were speaking to the hitchhiker and said to him "That woman who 'supposedly' saw the girls on Monday", you knew that that woman couldn't possibly have seen the two girls? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, I did. MR LATHAM because you had put them dead in a ditch on the Sunday, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct. MR LATHAM here you are saying to your mother, "them supposed tapings of my car"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM even those the scientists were saying there were red fibres inside the cabin of the car, you knew those girls had not been in the cabin of the car, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY at that time I didn't think I had done anything wrong. MR LATHAM oh but you did Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM and you knew that the scientist must have got it wrong, that's why you used the word "supposed tapings", didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I thought it was wrong, yes. MR LATHAM one fingerprint on a box of chocolates in the house from one of the girls. now "I don't know how the fingerprint on the box of chocolates came to be there , I really don't, but what I think when Maxine left the school she got cards and boxes of chocolates from all the children". That's your answer to the girls' fingerprints being on the box of chocolates isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that's correct. MR LATHAM so that is answer 1 to problem 1 in the prosecution papers, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY that's what, sorry? MR LATHAM You had done an analysis of the prosecution papers, and what you are going to be able to say in answer to what the prosecution is alleging, aren't you. that's what you are doing here ? IAN HUNTLEY no, I was looking at it and thinking this can't be right. MR LATHAM down the page, that's that explained, that's relating to the fingerprints on the chocolates. then look what has been said 3 lines from the bottom "I remembered everything, everything about Sunday now"? IAN HUNTLEY I have read some of the papers, yes. MR LATHAM not some of the papers, you have analysed the papers? IAN HUNTLEY no, my legal team is telling me things and I read some of the papers; I didn't read all the papers by a long way. MR LATHAM "I remember what they said and everything." Everything. Mr Huntley, you remembered perfectly well what had happened that Sunday, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I believed that I did. MR LATHAM "but I can't say too much"? MR LATHAM you were keeping your powder dry, weren't you Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY no, the reason I said that because my mum said ... MR LATHAM you thought you could dodge your way round this case? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't think I had done anything wrong. MR LATHAM "as long as Roy knows what is going on", says your mother, and you said "he doesn't, yet", because you had not committed yourself to a lying account that will fit the known facts, had you? IAN HUNTLEY I hadn't seen Roy whilst at Woodhill, I believe. MR LATHAM you were still working on how you could lie your way round the prosecution case, weren't you, Mr Huntley? MR JUSTICE MOSES that doesn't actually answer the question you were asked. perhaps you would ask it again. MR LATHAM you were working out how to lie your way round the prosecution case, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't. MR LATHAM "but I rung them yesterday and they are coming this week, either tomorrow or Friday, the lot of them, all of them. I have told them that I have remembered about that day"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM what is this? Some sort of false memory syndrome, is it? IAN HUNTLEY the psychiatrist said I was seeing what I wanted to see, it was a coping mechanism. MR LATHAM a what? IAN HUNTLEY a coping mechanism, that's what they later told me. MR LATHAM "if you are adamant on that, then I am adamant, I am 100 per cent remember them girls leaving my house"? IAN HUNTLEY I did tell lies in the two week period, yes. MR LATHAM and then we see your defence emerge, don't we, Mr Huntley, while talking to your mum? first ring binder, you see the first hole? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM "I have been wondering, you know, if somebody has perhaps been following the girls. I don't know if somebody was following the girls".? IAN HUNTLEY its all (inaudible). MR LATHAM you suggest they left your house in one piece and this was somebody else who followed them, did whatever MR LATHAM you were being far more devious than that, Mr Huntley, you were inventing a defence to fit the facts, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't. MR LATHAM because you appreciated from the papers that had been disclosed to you by the prosecution that there were witnesses who purported to have seen the girls well after IAN HUNTLEY that's correct, that was one of the things that convinced me I had done nothing wrong. MR LATHAM you latched on to that, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did. MR LATHAM yes. your mother knew that too, didn't she, there was supposed to be two people watching them when they were looking into a shop window. you see that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you went on "They left my house at 25 to 7, they came into my house sometime between 20 past and 25 past 6, IAN HUNTLEY yes, that's not correct. MR LATHAM What? IAN HUNTLEY that's not correct. MR LATHAM it is an invention? IAN HUNTLEY it wasn't an invention , I actually did put a quiche and jacket potato into the microwave at 6 o'clock. MR LATHAM "I had my tea at 7 o'clock" - invention? IAN HUNTLEY it wasn't invention, it was what I believed to be true at time. MR LATHAM it is an invention, it never happened? IAN HUNTLEY as it turns out now, yes. MR LATHAM the last thing you say on this page "All I can think of here, I think, this is what possibly happened, yes. I'm going to put this to Roy to see what he thinks." Roy is your solicitor, isn't he? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, he is. MR LATHAM "I am wondering if somebody was following them girls. they have seen them come into my house, yes, the girls have left my house, the girls were seen definitely by four people at either 20 to or quarter to seven, there is a good 5-10 minutes after they left my house, yes" - over the page "they was then last seen at 20 past 7 by somebody, I definitely four confirmed sightings at quarter to 7 and they had gone from my house by then, yes. and I wonder if somebody was following, yes, they have picked the girls up, they have done whatever they have done with them and yes, because they have seen them go into my house." you go on about a burning smell coming from the college. this was your defence? IAN HUNTLEY I was working with the information what the legal team was giving me---- MR LATHAM you were looking at what information the prosecution had and steering your course around it all, IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM then this is just false memory, all this stuff , is it? IAN HUNTLEY some of the things I was apparently seeing is just what I wanted to see. MR LATHAM you are not deliberately lying to your mother, it is what you actually believed had happened , is it? IAN HUNTLEY which part? MR LATHAM everything we have been through so far? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember exactly what I said to my mother. MR LATHAM well, everything so far that we have been through this morning, that is all false memory syndrome, is it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, things kept changing. MR LATHAM let's look at the next bit, shall we, down at the bottom of the page, because you move on to the clothes found in the bin. you have dealt with the police search teams not searching the hangar until Tuesday or Wednesday. IAN HUNTLEY sorry can you repeat? MR LATHAM yes, you heard during the course of the trial the hangar was searched on Tuesday/Wednesday of the first week? IAN HUNTLEY I know that it was searched on the Tuesday/Wednesday. MR LATHAM you knew that at the time because you helped them by giving them access? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you deal with that in this conversation as we are going down the page. then look at what you said at the bottom of the page "them clothes weren't there then, they MR LATHAM no, "I found them clothes", Mr Huntley, it is quite clear. where did that come from? well, let me suggest where it came from you knew you had a problem - your fingerprints were on the bin liner, your head hairs were in the bin mixed up with the clothes, that was a fundamental problem for you, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it was. MR LATHAM indeed, it was the main plank of the prosecution case in October of last year, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, probably. MR LATHAM yes. now there are two ways into that hangar..."I were in my house, because what happened is when I do my checks on the night I do a full security check on a Friday night, yeah, now them gates, which I said I remember being open but I couldn't understand why they was left open all week". You are putting forward a scenario in which a third party had access to the hangar because mistakenly it was left unlocked? IAN HUNTLEY it was left unlocked. MR LATHAM you were putting forward a scenario in which a third party, the killer, had access to the hangar, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I was trying to make sense of all the information that was presented to me. MR LATHAM over the page, you say so in terms, three lines down, "...because the police were around so much they were left open. so that person, the killer, could have got in through that gate"? IAN HUNTLEY I think that's referring to when I see somebody on the college grounds on the Monday night. MR LATHAM you see 8 lines down, yes, now, "They said they found some of my, well, they are saying, they said they found some of my hairs on the clothing"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and then the next thing you say "well, they say it is the same make-up, they are not certain if it is the same DNA or not". You see that? DNA, all they said was the hairs were microscopically similar, they matched. so they had not got a match on it but "I have already said to Roy, I put the bag and everything there now, I would have had to have leant over to put the bloody bag in." "would the hair fall down?" " yes, and you know what I'm like, constantly going like this" - and you brushed your hair, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I do do that. MR LATHAM in other words, you were inventing a story in which you came upon this bin with the clothes in it, way, way after the the Sunday, the 4th, and that you were arranging a bin liner and your hair must have dropped into the bin. that's the scenario you are inventing here, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I did remember putting the bin liner into the bin and I also do remember at some point the hangar door was---- MR LATHAM not the Sunday, the night of the killing, you are explaining to your mother the killer got access to the hangar and put the clothes in the hangar and you later went to the bin and your head hair going in there, as it were, by accident? IAN HUNTLEY that's what I thought at the time. MR LATHAM well, you are telling your mother you could remember doing that? IAN HUNTLEY I could remember putting the bin bag into the bin I also remember on a separate night now that the hangar was open. MR LATHAM a week or ten days later on the 4th, that's what you are saying here? IAN HUNTLEY no, I came across the hangar on the Wednesday. MR LATHAM The next thing you say - that's "how I believe", and "what I remember doing" - is "I see the hangar open and the cupboard. you are telling her you can actually remember this incident, it has nothing to do with the Sunday night, has it? IAN HUNTLEY like I said, everything was confused and all over the place. MR LATHAM then over the page, you move on to your next problem, fibres in the car. six lines, seven lines down "I know, do you think I don't know, why you think I get so wound up and upset and frustrated? because I can't talk to the police. because the doctors say I'm not fit to, because I know if I can talk to the police, me and Maxine will be out of here now. The only thing I can't answer here, the car, my car boot was open here because I got the brush for Sadie out there to brush her down. I was going to take her out on the Saturday to the shop and the girls said - that must be sat - on the edge of the boot but didn't actually bloody go in the boot. now they are claiming to have found fibres from the Manchester United top in the boot. I don't know if it is possible for bits to blow off or what, I just don't know." this is the answer to the fibres, isn't it Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY no, they did sit on the edge of the boot. MR LATHAM this is Huntley's answer to the fibre problem, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY they did sit on the edge of the boot of the car. MR LATHAM but you are here, telling your mother how you are going to deal with the problem of the girls' fibres having been found in your car? IAN HUNTLEY like I said I'm looking at information that was presented to me and trying to work things out. MR LATHAM "so the car boot was up? yes it was up. the girls sat on the edge of the boot I went into the house, got tissue for your nose but it didn't stop bleeding and that was when I said 'Come in' and then I started to get cold water. I took them upstairs because the kitchen sink was full of pots, because I'm a bugger when Maxine is not there for not washing up ", and so on. So you could remember all that, could you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did remember them coming into the house, yes. MR LATHAM your mother says "Well you see how it looks though". then you say this "yes, well, this is what I them girls, seen them girls at my bloody house knowing well well they might find some DNA in my house". What DNA are you referring to there? IAN HUNTLEY to fibres from the shirts. MR LATHAM DNA? IAN HUNTLEY yes. that's what it is. MR LATHAM DNA is fibres? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM DNA is a profile. a biological profile of somebody? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not a police officer, I would describe fibres as DNA. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not a police officer, I would describe fibres as DNA, they do profile on them. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, you talked to several police officers about DNA and discussed DNA profiling, and one officer talked to you about the Tzars? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct, yes. MR LATHAM nothing to do with fibres? IAN HUNTLEY fibres, hairs. MR LATHAM "knowing full well they might find some DNA in my house, bugger off and put the clothes down at the school to make it look like its me and that's really what I believe happened" - that you were being framed by the killer? IAN HUNTLEY that's what I was thinking at the time, yes. MR LATHAM that was the defence you had devised? IAN HUNTLEY that wasn't a defence, that was just ideas that I was putting forward. MR LATHAM over the page, "...because the police can't find the ******* Transcript edited by Sky News real person that done any of this"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. last two lines of it you are talking about the assumption that two girls were put in the boot of your car "No matter how many times you clean the car, hoover the car, you are going to find hairs" and you knew that none of the girls hairs had been found in your car didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes I did. MR LATHAM this was a cold blooded analysis of the prosecution case? IAN HUNTLEY no, it wasn't. MR LATHAM and you knew perfectly well what you had to answer? IAN HUNTLEY no, didn't. MR LATHAM and you had worked a way out, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM you go on to say at the second ring binder,"I couldn't fit two bloody girls in my boot", didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM but you did, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY it is only a small boot and at the time I didn't think it was possible. MR LATHAM didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes I did. MR LATHAM page 11, the top of the page, the third line down "what I need to happen, that's the most infuriating thing, because if I hadn't been doing all this shutting down malarkey", that's what it was, wasn't it, 'malarkey'? IAN HUNTLEY what do you mean by malarkey. MR LATHAM what do you mean by malarkey, your word not mine? IAN HUNTLEY activity. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY activity. MR LATHAM that's what malarkey means? IAN HUNTLEY it is just a term I used. nonsense, it was a game, it was just a desperate attempt to avoid the consequences wasn't it, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY then you are disputing what a lot of doctors say. MR LATHAM and it didn't work, did it? IAN HUNTLEY what I'm saying is true. MR LATHAM it didn't work, the shutting down line, you ended up back at Woodhill didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I appealed against being in Rampton. I didn't want to be there, it wasn't my intention to stay. I didn't want to be there. MR LATHAM let's look at what you said in the middle of the page . Wayne is your brother, isn't he? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM he had been also concerned about you, hadn't he? IAN HUNTLEY yes, he had. MR LATHAM and you were worried that he might be talking to the ideas and the things that I had seen. MR LATHAM You were worried that he might pass on something you said to him to the police? IAN HUNTLEY I wanted the information to come from me rather than him. MR LATHAM you were worried that he might pass on information to the police? IAN HUNTLEY for the reason I have just given. MR LATHAM let's look at what you said. the middle of the page "what I need, I need to explain something to you - to you - the reason it is very important this doesn't come to keep your powder dry, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY No, I hadn't. MR LATHAM "it will help them to build up a prosecution against me, in fact it will put it will help to put me in prison, if Wayne goes to the police with what I have told you. it will help to put me in prison because it means they will be prepared for it, yes, and they will be coming up with, because at the moment, they don't know anything. they don't know anything. they don't know, haven't got a clue, what I'm going to say to them". You were going to keep this story up your sleeve, you thought you had an answer to the prosecution case, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, this was said because I hadn't been able to make a statement to the police. MR LATHAM then the very last thing you dealt with, page 13 onwards? IAN HUNTLEY page what, sorry? MR LATHAM 13. you talk about the pressure you were under during the last two weeks as a caretaker, don't you? you see that, just below the first ring binder "I have been under so much pressure for the last two weeks"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. with the press, I was trying to deal with the police. I was trying to assist the police all the time knowing they were at some point going to pull me in for questioning"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM "trying to assist the police during that fortnight"? IAN HUNTLEY I had been, yes. MR LATHAM you knew perfectly well that you had been lying to the police for a fortnight didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY at that time, no. MR LATHAM I'm sorry, but this - this first memory syndrome is so sophisticated isn't it, Mr Huntley, that you can remember now and acknowledge everything that you told the police, told the police and told your work colleagues, was a lie the girls died in the house. yet when you are talking to your mother at this point, you somehow believe that everything you were saying to the police during the fortnight was the truth? IAN HUNTLEY because I genuinely didn't believe I had done anything wrong at that time. MR LATHAM then at the bottom of page 14, having been running through your defence with your mother, you say this, two lines from the bottom "what I need from you lot is some bloody confidence and faith in me"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM "mum, now I have told you the truth - what I know, what I have remembered, I don't ever, ever want you to think again that I might have done this, because I haven't. I could never hurt anybody, I never have and never will"? MR LATHAM that was a bare-faced lie, in front of your own mother, wasn't it ? IAN HUNTLEY no, it wasn't. MR LATHAM your attitude is encapsulated in the very last thing that is on this transcript, isn't it? page 15 "if they are listening" that is listening to what you were saying to your mother - if for any reason they were, "there is something I would like to say to them; I'm going to **** Transcript edited by Sky News them over when all this is over and I'm going to sue the ***** off them you know - and I am"? IAN HUNTLEY that's quite correct, yes, and I meant to. I didn't think I had done anything wrong at that time. MR LATHAM you knew perfectly well what you had and you were just setting about inventing a clever defence. that's right isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, its not. MR LATHAM we move into this year and the prosecution papers were formally served upon you and there was a first court appearance, wasn't there? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM in the early part of this year, all the prosecution papers which formed the prosecution case at that here? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that would have been early on this year. MR LATHAM once the prosecution have set their stall out and explained on paper what it is which is alleged against you, and why it alleged against you, a defence case statement has to be filed, doesn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you know that a defence case statement was filed on your behalf, don't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. Easter time this year? IAN HUNTLEY Easter time this year, no. MR LATHAM that's when the defence case statement was served and you know what is in that defence case statement, don't you, Mr Huntley, it was served on your behalf by your lawyers, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not actually aware of what was in the defence case statement, no. MR LATHAM you know in basic terms what was in it, it was a pretty thin document, eight lines long. "the defendant did not kill Jessica Chapman or Holly Wells" is the first thing MR LATHAM April of this year? IAN HUNTLEY yes, then that's right yes. MR LATHAM "the defendant did see and speak with the deceased on the 4th August at his house and last saw them at about 6.15 to 6.30 outside his home"? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct. MR LATHAM "the defendant did not deposit, or have any part in the deposition of, the bodies of the deceased at the site where they were found"? IAN HUNTLEY which is true to what I believe it in March/April this year. IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM "the defendant did not deposit, or have any part in the deposition of, clothing or possessions of the deceased in the hangar." during the summer things began to look difficult for you - that is prosecution served additional evidence on you, that's right isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes summer time. MR LATHAM after hours and hours of work, all the forensic evidence came through and was served on you and your legal advisers, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. IAN HUNTLEY I didn't actually read those papers until quite late on. MR LATHAM no, it came quite late on, but there came a time you were confronted by geology evidence tying your car to the site? IAN HUNTLEY I would have- that would have been September time. MR LATHAM and the pollen evidence which tied your car to the site and tied the petrol can to the site and tied shoes to the site. that's right isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM of course the Fiesta evidence relating to the tyres, wasn't there? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM finally, the covert tapes of your conversation with your mother was served on you as part of the prosecution case, weren't they? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, I was aware that conversation may have MR LATHAM any thought, thought that someone may have framed you went out of the window? IAN HUNTLEY My memory started to come back before I had seen those papers, in July. MR LATHAM had it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, shortly ----. MR LATHAM your memory started to come back in July? IAN HUNTLEY I had seen bits and pieces, the bits and pieces before then, but I can't piece anything together. MR LATHAM what I suggest to you by the time the prosecution IAN HUNTLEY I had not thought of any defence. MR LATHAM so Ian Huntley has had to come up with an entirely new defence? IAN HUNTLEY what I have come here with this truth. MR LATHAM sunday, 4th August Sadie ran off? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM there came a time you were looking for her in your car? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM you collected the video or the DVD? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you went shopping, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I went shopping on the Saturday. MR LATHAM just before 6.30, the dog came back? IAN HUNTLEY it was actually about 6 o'clock time. MR LATHAM 6. in a dreadful mess? IAN HUNTLEY she was, yes. MR LATHAM burs, covered in mud and wet? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM such that you wouldn't let her anywhere, other than locking her in the cloakroom? IAN HUNTLEY the downstairs toilet. MR LATHAM the downstairs toilet, because having her running around anywhere in the house in that condition would have turned the house into a total mess, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it is easier to clean one room than the whole house. MR LATHAM at 6.24, Maxine Carr telephoned you, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM we know now that that on any view must have been before you saw or had any contact with the girls? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM one of the topics of conversation was the fact u? IAN HUNTLEY I was annoyed. MR LATHAM do you like to control people, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I don't control Maxine, Maxine has a very strong mind of her own. MR LATHAM a strong mind, she has a will of her own? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she certainly indicated she was going out on that night, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes, if that's what she did. MR LATHAM she was out of your control in that sense, wasn't MR LATHAM did that irritate you? IAN HUNTLEY I was annoyed she was going out again, yes and I know what Maxine can be like when she has had a few drinks. MR LATHAM I would like you---- MR JUSTICE MOSES I didn't hear that last answer? IAN HUNTLEY I know what Maxine can be like when she has had a few drinks. MR LATHAM you know what she is like when she has had a few drinks? bundle, again, I think it is flagged for you with the blue flag, Members of the Jury, it is transcript which is 11 pages in all, the second of Maxine Carr's telephone conversation with Mrs Huntley. MR LATHAM where is the television in the house, there is a small one in the area between the dining room and kitchen, isn't there? IAN HUNTLEY I think it was kept on the small table in the kitchen. MR LATHAM there's the small television there? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, she has moved it. MR LATHAM I accept that's the sort of thing that can be moved but it is the television for use in the kitchen/in the dining room isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that last time I remember seeing it was on the small table with the two metal legs is the kitchen. MR LATHAM it is not the main television, there is another television in the living room IAN HUNTLEY Yes, that's right. MR LATHAM that television is for use downstairs in the dining room or in the kitchen, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. between Maxine and your mother? I want you to comment upon it if you will, please? IAN HUNTLEY page 6? MR LATHAM page 6? IAN HUNTLEY it only goes up to page 5. MR LATHAM page 6 is what - I am sorry if you have the first one, it is the last one I'm asking you about which is a transcript which should end with page 11. MR JUSTICE MOSES the end of the bundle, the last page. MR LATHAM the last page in the entire bundle should be page 11. I do not know if Mr Huntley wants a break now? (Short adjournment) MR LATHAM my Lord , I understand the stenographer is having considerable difficulty in recording some of Mr Huntley's answers, she is finding it very difficult to hear, I thought I had better mention it because sometimes the answers trail away a bit. MR JUSTICE MOSES I know it is difficult. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, I want you to look at Maxine's version of what was said in that conversation so that you can tell us what you have to say about it, please. you will find the transcript now is open at page 6. Do you have IAN HUNTLEY yes I do. . MR LATHAM this is the second of the conversations that Maxine Carr had with your mother when she was at Holloway. do you see the time, 10.08, near the first ring? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM then she has it the wrong way round. She says "He rang me" but she is talking about this 6.24 conversation, because it was the only one you had that evening wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it was. that's right, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM 'I have got some cans of lager. I didn't expect you were going out tonight, I thought you would stay in and watch a video', and I said, 'Well, my mum ain't got any videos' and he said, 'Okay then'". so up to that point that right is it, not word for word, but that's the general initial topic? IAN HUNTLEY yes, yes I believe so. MR LATHAM let's look at what she then says has happened on this call then "I mean, he brought Sadie, he brought Sadie all I could hear was the TV"? IAN HUNTLEY I was actually stood on the doorstep when I received that call. MR LATHAM precisely. I want you to think about this and tell us whether she is right or wrong. if she is right that she could hear the television then you would have had to have been either in the sitting room watching the sitting room television or you would be in the dining room or the kitchen, wouldn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so "He was in the house and he brought Sadie to she was rolling over and I heard her barking. she was - he was in the house". If Sadie was in the kitchen or in the living room or in the dining room at 6.24, she wasn't covered in mud and she wasn't soaking wet, was she? IAN HUNTLEY this is incorrect. MR LATHAM it is incorrect? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she has got that completely wrong? IAN HUNTLEY yes, she has. I was saying Sadie's name for her to respond to the telephone, but I wasn't calling her. MR LATHAM it won't fit with the sound of the television in the background, would it? IAN HUNTLEY I wasn't near the television. MR LATHAM that is 6.24 it may help if you have the other file with you, not to look at it all the time, but the green file. tab 2, the chronology. From time to time I'm going to look at this chronology with you, Mr Huntley. if you go to page 5 of the chronology you will see where we have got to. all right. 18.24 you see that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM The telephone. it was two and a quarter minutes long which would take us to 6.26, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and something. So that call ends a couple of minutes before the girls walk across the car park, CCTV? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so after you had had the telephone call with Maxine you were outside, you tell us, starting to brush the dog? IAN HUNTLEY I was continuing to brush. MR LATHAM continuing to brush the dog down? did you have the choke chain on the dog? LATHAM were you just holding the dog in one hand while you were brushing the dog? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that's the way I usually do. MR LATHAM the dog was absolutely sopping wet and muddy, was she? IAN HUNTLEY She was mucky, yes, and I restrained her with my hand. MR LATHAM what did you have on at the time? IAN HUNTLEY I had my yellow shirt on and my beige jeans. MR LATHAM yellow shirt, a long sleeved shirt? IAN HUNTLEY it is a long sleeved shirt yes. IAN HUNTLEY my hand. MR LATHAM come on, this is a huge dog you have been telling us about the size of this dog and you are trying to brush her down and you just showed us your arm round it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM long sleeved? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it is the light yellow shirt? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM you would have been got it absolutely filthy? IAN HUNTLEY it is possible I would have got some muck in MR LATHAM possible, you would have been absolutely filthy doing this in a long sleeved ordinary shirt? IAN HUNTLEY no I disagree. MR LATHAM we know that if you are doing what you say you were doing, the girls must have walked pretty much past your house at about 6.31, mustn't they? IAN HUNTLEY according to this, yes. MR LATHAM well, according to the evidence, the unchallenged evidence, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because we know that the witnesses Greenwood and IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and it takes something less than a minute to drive from that car park into College Road -- we have all been there, it is just a matter of 100 yards or so? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it's not far. MR LATHAM they left under the CCTV 18.31, which would put them in College Road at 18.32, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and they saw the girls on their right hand side walking up College Road ? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so they must have come past your house having come out of the front of the sports centre and across in MR LATHAM which is the very moment you are getting the text message? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you read it straight away? IAN HUNTLEY I believe so, yes. MR LATHAM and they would have been there for you to see, wouldn't they, those girls? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't see them, no. MR LATHAM so they walked right past your house, on up College Road and must have turned round and come back down College Road, mustn't they ? you accept they came to your door? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I said that. MR LATHAM they would have got to your door at 6.33 or 6.34 on that timing wouldn't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM to ask about Maxine or Miss Carr as they described her? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and when did you use the words "Plonk your bums on there", before or after the nosebleed started? IAN HUNTLEY that would have been after. MR LATHAM after? when you decided to go in and get some tissues? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM which of the two girls was it that had the nosebleed? IAN HUNTLEY it was Holly. MR LATHAM of course, we know, don't we, that Maxine knew these girls very well? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM we know that now? IAN HUNTLEY yes. IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM worked out with them, day by day, Monday to Friday. we know that, don't we? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she would have had no difficulty whatsoever giving any description of these two girls named Holly and Jessica in distinguishing? IAN HUNTLEY That's right. MR LATHAM Jessica with the darker hair, Holly with the blonde hair? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I would think so. MR LATHAM let's look at that telephone conversation with your mother again, shall we? page 5, the centre of the page. you agree that you did tell Maxine about the nosebleed? IAN HUNTLEY yes I did. MR LATHAM the middle of the page, page 56, "....and explained everything to them about what Ian had told me. e one with the nosebleed, the dark haired one." . MR COWARD my Lord with respect it reads "the one with the nosebleed, comma." MR LATHAM I will read that again. I will then read the next passage "the one with the nosebleed, the dark haired one, and all that ... and that it had stopped and then they had gone." then let's look at page 8. MR JUSTICE MOSES what page is that? MR LATHAM 5, at 8.56. the bottom of the page at 14.47 they both went up upstairs, both of the girls, and he said "there was nowhere else for her to sit so he she sat on the edge of our bed." you told Maxine the girl with the nose bleed was the dark haired one? IAN HUNTLEY no, she is mistaken. MR LATHAM you talked about blond girl and a dark girl who were known to be Holly and Jessica. She would have known at once Jessica was the dark haired and Holly the blonde? IAN HUNTLEY yes, she would. MR LATHAM you have heard your evidence again. Now that you have discovered that, Holly had some time before had a couple of nosebleeds, hadn't she