Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman - Documents 02/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Tuesday, 02 December 2003 SKY News Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear. Page 01 02 03 MR LATHAM you don't know if you touched her? IAN HUNTLEY it happened very quickly. MR LATHAM of course, if you slip by accident what do you do? IAN HUNTLEY you go in a forward motion. MR LATHAM yes, and how does your body react in you slipping MR LATHAM instinctively, that's right isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you don't have to think about it, you put your arm out? IAN HUNTLEY to get balance. MR LATHAM grab something, you had lots of things within grabbing reach here, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't say that. I completely lost my balance, I just went into forward motion. MR LATHAM you heard her splashing into the bath. Do you recall that? HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM if she was sitting pretty much square on she would have gone backwards? IAN HUNTLEY she wasn't sat square on. MR LATHAM how was she sitting? IAN HUNTLEY she was sat like that facing towards the sink, she couldn't sit level with the sink because the sink was too close to the bath. MR LATHAM and as she went over as part of your accident, what would be the instinctive thing to do? IAN HUNTLEY I would think the easiest thing to do would be to grab hold of something. MR LATHAM in fact slipping, somebody else has lost their balance, what is the instinctive thing to do so far as that person is concerned? IAN HUNTLEY sorry, can you repeat the question. MR LATHAM if as a result of slipping by accident, you cause somebody else to lose their balance, what is the instinctive thing to do as far as they are concerned? IAN HUNTLEY help them. MR LATHAM help them. You don't have to think about it, you just grab hold of them? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she was within arm's reach of them, wasn't she? IAN HUNTLEY About, yes. MR LATHAM you only had to reach like that, to go into the bath with your left hand? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM sorry, "don't know" won't do? IAN HUNTLEY okay then I panicked. I expected movement, I expected her to get herself out, but it didn't happen. MR LATHAM if you panicked when someone has fallen into a bath, it is instinctive in panicking to try and get them out, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM how was she lying, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY not exactly sure how she was lying but I do know her feet was at the tap end? MR LATHAM They would have been in the air? There would have been room for her legs? IAN HUNTLEY her feet were in the bath. MR LATHAM somehow now she is lying along the bath? IAN HUNTLEY she was in the bath, her body was in the bath. MR LATHAM with her feet under water as well? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know if they was in the water, her feet were in the bath. MR LATHAM effectively straight out in a line along the bottom of the bath? IAN HUNTLEY No, I don't think she was. MR LATHAM where was her head, how far down the bath was her away from the taps. MR LATHAM For her head to be underwater in 6 to 8 inches of water, which I accept would go up when somebody went into, it displaced water, she has got to be lying her body very flat to get her head underneath the water, hasn't she? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM you don't know? IAN HUNTLEY I'm sorry. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, answer the question please? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM if she was lying in the bath, how far away from IAN HUNTLEY Jessica was sat near the door. MR LATHAM how far would Jessica be away from her friend? IAN HUNTLEY not very far. MR LATHAM who has just fallen into the bath? IAN HUNTLEY not very far. MR LATHAM a reach away, that's right isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so you panicked and you froze? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM when leaning literally over would have allowed you to pull her head out of the water, wouldn't it? MR LATHAM and you watched her drown? IAN HUNTLEY like I said, I just froze. MR LATHAM you watched her drown? IAN HUNTLEY I wasn't watching. MR LATHAM you know, you are not stupid, Mr Huntley, if somebody's head goes under the water they can't breathe? IAN HUNTLEY I was trying to think. MR LATHAM think what? IAN HUNTLEY trying to think what to do. MR LATHAM what to do? goodness, how many choices have you got, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY one, I know that. MR LATHAM sorry? LATHAM one? Why didn't you do it? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM there is no answer, simply no answer to the question? IAN HUNTLEY the answer that I have just given you. MR LATHAM let's turn to Jessica. you are frozen - for reasons you can't explain - by panic? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM Jessica would have leaned over and pulled her friend's head out of the water, Mr Huntley, wouldn't she? IAN HUNTLEY perhaps she panicked when she saw no movement. MR LATHAM does she? IAN HUNTLEY no, no, she was shouting and screaming. MR LATHAM yes, but shouting and screaming - it is instinctive to help a friend, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you say that she didn't either? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM she just stood there and screamed? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM while Holly drowned? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM in front of your eyes and Jessica's eyes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM effectively the two of you stood within touching distance of this child? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I know. MR LATHAM and watched her drown? that's effectively what you are saying, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't watch her drown. MR LATHAM you knew her head was in the water, you comprehended that, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. I comprehended that she was in the bath IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM if Holly drowned in the bath, she drowned in the bath because you wanted her dead? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't want her dead. MR LATHAM the only way that child could have drowned in the bath is if you were holding her under the water? IAN HUNTLEY I wasn't holding her. MR LATHAM if that was what happened, she did die in the bath, and Jessica was screaming, Jessica was screaming because you were murdering Holly; that's the truth, isn't it? rather than helping her friend, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, that's not true. MR LATHAM let's turn----? IAN HUNTLEY if that was the case Jessica could have run off anywhere she liked. MR LATHAM let's turn to Jessica. you felt it was more important to be active in relation to Jessica than active in relation to Holly; is that what you are saying? IAN HUNTLEY I was just trying to think, I was trying to collect my thoughts, trying to think. -.... IAN HUNTLEY you don't in .... but in those circumstances it is not so rational, believe me I know. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley you can be perfectly assertive when you went to, can't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes,. MR LATHAM you can get angry can't you, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you just lost your temper with me, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY that's because you, you have your opinion. MR LATHAM you have just lost your temper with me, haven't IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you lose your temper with one of those girls on that Sunday evening? IAN HUNTLEY I had no reason to lose my temper with one of those girls on Sunday evening. MR LATHAM did you become the assertive individual you became two minutes ago? IAN HUNTLEY No, I did not. Hearing adjourned - will resume after lunch doing? IAN HUNTLEY she screamed "you pushed her, you pushed her!" MR LATHAM you pushed her. she was screaming because you were drowning Holly, isn't that what it is all about? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM you turned your attentions to Jessica; is that right? IAN HUNTLEY I did turn my attention to Jessica, yes. MR LATHAM in your panic, your inability to do anything whatsoever about a girl who was in danger of drowning, you turned your attentions to Jessica? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM who was no sort of problem as far as you were concerned, was she, if what you say is right? IAN HUNTLEY I was trying to get my thoughts together. MR LATHAM trying to get your thoughts together, ignoring Holly and turning to Jessica. wasn't Holly dead by then? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM is that why you could turn your attention to Jessica? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wanted some quiet. MR LATHAM you wanted some quiet? had you lost your temper? IAN HUNTLEY no, I hadn't lost my temper. MR LATHAM did she come to you or did you step to her? IAN HUNTLEY I stepped to her. MR LATHAM so she wasn't even in the way? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM where was she standing? IAN HUNTLEY near the doorway. MR LATHAM pretty much in the threshold of the doorway? IAN HUNTLEY about there, yes. MR LATHAM so you had completely free space within the bathroom to do anything you wanted in the bathroom area? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM this wasn't a girl who was in some way attacking you, so that you felt you had to do something about her before you turned back to Holly, she was standing in the doorway shouting at you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you advanced towards her? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM putting up your hand towards her mouth? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM how does a person breathe, through what does a person breathe, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY through the mouth and the nose. MR LATHAM yes. if you block the mouth and nose, what starts to happen to someone? IAN HUNTLEY you starve them of oxygen etc. MR LATHAM you are starving them of oxygen and they start, in effect to die, don't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it doesn't happen in a moment, does it? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM even if the person doesn't realise that they are about to have their air supply cut off, and they have not taken a deep breath, we all know it doesn't just happen in a moment, does it? IAN HUNTLEY no, it doesn't. MR LATHAM you put your hand up to her mouth, did you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM show us on your own face what you did with your hand, will you? IAN HUNTLEY all I know is I put my hand over her mouth. MR LATHAM show us, show us across, you are putting your hand across the mouth and the edge of your finger is against the nostrils, is that what you are showing, a demonstration? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that's it, is it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and I take it you accept that by doing that you must have completely cut off her air supply? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it is how she died, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so you somehow put your hand in a way which was cutting off the air supply. No need to think very hard to realise that that was a dangerous thing to do, isn't it, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM where was you other hand? ? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know, I just remember putting a hand over her mouth. MR LATHAM you remember the first hand, I want to know what the second hand was doing, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I'm really not sure. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley , I am more interested in the second hand than the first hand. do you understand? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I understand that. MR LATHAM You know why I am more interested in the second hand, don't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I don't. MR LATHAM what is the instinctive reaction of somebody who has a single hand put across their mouth and nose so they can't breathe? IAN HUNTLEY struggle. MR LATHAM to escape. why would they want to escape? IAN HUNTLEY so that they can breathe. MR LATHAM so they can breathe. How, if somebody puts a single hand across your face, do you start breathing again? IAN HUNTLEY Remove the hand away from the face. MR LATHAM move the hand away from the face or you turn your head to one side, don't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because as soon as you do that you can draw breath, can't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she, if you are right, was suffocated, wasn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM how was it possible for you to suffocate her? IAN HUNTLEY I have described it the best way I can what happened. MR LATHAM well, you haven't, with respect, because I just pointed out to you, if you simply put your hand up to somebody's face, it is instinctive that they will firstly back away, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and turn their head? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM well, if you killed her by putting your hand across her face like that, something prevented her from turning her head. now, Mr Huntley, perhaps you understand why I am more interested in your other hand. Once again, please, I ask the question, what were you doing with your other hand? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM well, what must you have been doing with your other hand, Mr Huntley? will you just think about it? IAN HUNTLEY probably restraining her somehow. MR LATHAM restraining her. And this was a fit, active, ten year-old, yes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM who, as your hand went over her face and she was unable to breathe, would have been doing what? IAN HUNTLEY struggling. MR LATHAM fighting for her very life, wouldn't she, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM what was it that you were doing to prevent her from fighting for her very life, for her last breath? IAN HUNTLEY I only recall putting one hand over her mouth. MR LATHAM so you keep saying. I want to know what it was that you were doing which prevented her taking her next breath? IAN HUNTLEY I can only tell you what I'm clear about. MR LATHAM the only way that that child could have died in the circumstances you describe is if you quite deliberately somehow restrained her head so that you could block her airways. That must be right, mustn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't deliberately intend to kill her. MR LATHAM that must be right, mustn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not saying that's wrong, I just - all I recall is the hand over her mouth. MR LATHAM and little girls like that don't just drop dead in ten seconds, Mr Huntley, you must have held her for 30 seconds or a minute before she was dead. now, what were you up to, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I was just stopping the screaming. MR LATHAM what, for 30 seconds or a minute? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know how long for. MR LATHAM Really? As in you were killing her? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know how long for. MR LATHAM you accept that this couldn't have happened for ten seconds across her mouth? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I accept that. MR LATHAM I ask again, for the last time, what were you up to? IAN HUNTLEY stopping her from screaming. MR LATHAM did you ever see whether you stop her, by taking your hand off her mouth? IAN HUNTLEY no, the next thing that came into my head was to actually get Holly out of the bath. MR LATHAM "my goodness, I should get Holly out of the bath" - and? IAN HUNTLEY and when I let go of Jessica she dropped to the ground. MR LATHAM when you let go she did what? IAN HUNTLEY she dropped to the ground. MR LATHAM dropped to the floor, which means you were holding her up at that moment until you released her, doesn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes it would seem so. MR LATHAM you can't hold the weight of a ten year old's body up with one hand on its own across the front of the face, can you? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM what were you doing with the other hand? IAN HUNTLEY as I said, I really don't know. MR LATHAM or is it that this was happening on the ground or on a bed somewhere? IAN HUNTLEY no, it happened as I said it happened. MR LATHAM if you had given that girl the slightest chance she would have lived, wouldn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you did not give her the slightest chance, did you? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM and that sort of thing doesn't happen accidentally, does it, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't mean to kill her. MR LATHAM you didn't mean to let her live, did you? IAN HUNTLEY that's not true. MR LATHAM and then you black out, is that what happened next? IAN HUNTLEY I pulled Holly out of the bath. MR LATHAM you pulled Holly out of the bath. how was her face? IAN HUNTLEY it was a pale, pale colour. MR LATHAM what was it like around her mouth and her nose? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM the bath water would have been bloody, I suppose, was it? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM she had been bleeding, the whole reason for - the story so far - she was bleeding around the head through her nose? IAN HUNTLEY she had a nosebleed, yes, but I never said she was bleeding around her head. MR LATHAM she has now gone in the water and, until she died, until she drowned, she would have been breathing in and breathing out, wouldn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so the blood in her nose - the reason she was in the bathroom - would have gone into the bath? IAN HUNTLEY as I told you, the nosebleed had almost stopped, or seemed to have almost stopped. MR LATHAM there would have been blood in her head, in her mouth, in the back of her throat? IAN HUNTLEY I was more intent at that point on checking Holly's pulse. MR LATHAM but the bath was still there five minutes, 10 minutes, half an hour later wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY it was there later, yes. MR LATHAM at some stage you must have looked into it? IAN HUNTLEY I emptied the water out. MR LATHAM when you emptied the water out did you empty out bloody water or clear water? IAN HUNTLEY it was clear water. MR LATHAM having discovered Holly seemed to be dead, what happened to you? IAN HUNTLEY I went over to Jessica. MR LATHAM and? IAN HUNTLEY I checked her wrist and neck and put the right side of my cheek to her face. MR LATHAM you realised you had killed her? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you had killed her, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM then? I am interested in this blackout, Mr Huntley; what happened then? IAN HUNTLEY then I was sat in a corner on the landing facing Jessica. MR LATHAM is that the corner by the the laundry basket there? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM sat in the corner looking at Jessica who was - what - stretched out on the landing, was she? IAN HUNTLEY she was half in and half out of the bathroom. MR LATHAM had you, when you were trying to find out if she was still alive, stretched her out so that you could take a pulse - if there was one there? IAN HUNTLEY yes. I had to put one knee either side of her legs. MR LATHAM so you have got one dead body on the floor of the bathroom and another dead body in the doorway, is that what it is? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and then you sat down in the corner and did what? IAN HUNTLEY just crying and I was sick. MR LATHAM crying and you were sick? What had happened in the minutes leading up to the picture you are painting was sexually motivated, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, it wasn't. MR LATHAM you quite deliberately put up somebody as a possible candidate for this killing, or these killings, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, that, that name was put forward to me to be put forward to the police. MR LATHAM and you latched on to it and at every opportunity named an individual as being potentially responsible for this didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY on a couple of occasions. MR LATHAM yes. who was it? IAN HUNTLEY that would have been a Mr Michael C******. MR LATHAM and why had he lost his job, remind us? IAN HUNTLEY because he had had girls coming in and out of his house all night. MR LATHAM it was a sexual thing, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, it wasn't. MR LATHAM C****** was sexual, he lost his job because he was behaving inappropriately with young children, that was the allegation, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I believe it was. MR LATHAM yes. paedophilia? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and that was your idea of a possible candidate for this, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY the name was put forward to me and I put it forward. MR LATHAM yes. you were implying there was a sexual motive for these killings, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't implying anything, I was stating the facts as I had been told them. MR LATHAM how long were you sitting being sick and staring at the two bodies? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure. MR LATHAM well, give us some idea? IAN HUNTLEY minutes. MR LATHAM minutes. of course this had all started with a conversation outside; you are coming in, going upstairs, coming back down again, coming in, going into the sitting room, upstairs, bedroom, bathroom, incident in the bathroom, you are sitting looking for several minutes at what you had done. that's about it isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY at what has happened. MR LATHAM yes, that's the sequence of events, isn't it, in a nutshell? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I'm not really sure----. MR LATHAM I'm trying to summarise it, to think about how long it would have taken, do you understand? how long do you think all this would have taken? there is quite a lot of things to happen isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, not really. I would say 10 to 15 minutes. MR LATHAM of course Jessica's telephone was turned off at 18.46, we know that, don't we? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM which would be about a maximum of 12 minutes from the time that they first arrived on your doorstep, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM is that would be about 6.34, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes,. MR LATHAM we went through that this morning? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you say you had nothing to do with turning Jessica's phone off? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM so it follows that she must have turned her phone off? IAN HUNTLEY I can't say what happened to that phone. MR LATHAM let's not worry for a moment about why. it follows she must have turned her phone off, mustn't she? IAN HUNTLEY I can't say either way. MR LATHAM think about it. it is switched off when you see it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. I didn't see her turn the phone off. MR LATHAM you see it sometime on your evidence after 18.46 don't you, because it was turned off at 18.46? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she didn't turn it off when you were in the bathroom with her, did she? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM she didn't turn it off while you were killing her, did she? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM she can't have turned it off after you killed her, can she? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM so she must have turned it off, on your evidence, while she was still alive and before the last time she was in the bathroom, yes? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure. MR LATHAM I'm sorry, do you want me to go through that again? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM or will you just wrestle with it, please. MR COWARD can I ask my learned friend to add one further stage the period when Jessica was on her own and the other two left the bathroom, for the complete picture. MR LATHAM do not worry, I am coming to that. Mr Huntley, 18.46, the turning off of the telephone must have been at sometime before the last time the three of you were in the bathroom together, if you are telling the truth? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that telephone was a means by which Jessica could get in touch with her own family or get in touch with Holly's family, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and it was Holly that was in trouble, according to you, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it would be an obvious thing to do, to ring up Holly's home in the circumstances, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that would be the logical thing to do. MR LATHAM Holly has had a nosebleed, do you think you could pop round and come and collect her, she's not feeling very well, something like that. that would be the obvious thing to do, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know what the obvious thing for them - I can't speak for them. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY I can't speak for them. MR LATHAM I know you can't speak for her, I am just asking you to think about it. I am examining whether you are telling us the truth or you are standing there lying, do you understand? IAN HUNTLEY you have already made up your mind that I'm lying. MR LATHAM I want to see if what you are saying makes sense. All right? IAN HUNTLEY okay. MR LATHAM do you accept it is sensible in the circumstances you have been describing for, Jessica if she - remember, she has her telephone with her - to be ringing up either her own family or Holly's family? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I do. MR LATHAM if she turned the telephone off, as you imply she must have done, it follows she appreciated she had got the phone, doesn't it, in order to turn it off? IAN HUNTLEY yes, she would have had the phone to turn it off. MR LATHAM you see, I suggest to you the only person who would want that phone switched off at 18.46 that evening was you? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't turn the telephone off. MR LATHAM no-one else had any interest in turning the phone off? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't turn the telephone off. MR LATHAM you did? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM So now you have two bodies on your hands and you have got a choice? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you decided it was the cover-up, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and your behaviour for the remaining 12, 13 days, was all designed as a cover-up, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY my behaviour over those 12, 13 days was inexcusable, yes. MR LATHAM it was to cover up what you had done? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it was. MR LATHAM you had told lies---- IAN HUNTLEY I wanted to tell the truth. MR LATHAM ----to distract? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM to divert attention? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM to fabricate evidence? IAN HUNTLEY you mean in the statement. MR LATHAM fabricate an alibi? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the distraction of C******, a total distraction? IAN HUNTLEY I was told to put that name forward. MR LATHAM it was a total distraction. You had done it, you knew you had done it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the other red Fiesta behaving suspiciously, total distraction, yes? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM you knew the only red Fiesta that had done anything wrong was your red Fiesta? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I know. MR LATHAM so to even mention another red Fiesta was a deliberate distraction, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, there were cars going round the school grounds all the time, some of them not (inaudible). MR LATHAM you knew when people were asking about things like that, they were asking you about things which had to do with Holly and Jessica's disappearance, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the other red Fiesta had nothing to do with their disappearance? IAN HUNTLEY no, it didn't. MR LATHAM so when you mentioned it to the police it was a deliberate distraction, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I see what you mean. MR LATHAM thank you. so you decided you need to get the bodies out of the house; that's the first thing you have got to do, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM which body did you pick up first? IAN HUNTLEY I think, I think it would have been Holly. MR LATHAM what did it feel like this body as you pick it up? IAN HUNTLEY limp. MR LATHAM difficult to carry, no? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM difficult to carry, no? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM a dead body is floppy, it is a dead weight isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM this one was wet? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM how did it feel carrying this dead body downstairs, Mr Huntley? how did it feel? how did it feel when you carried Jessica's dead body downstairs? that you had just killed. well? IAN HUNTLEY not good. MR LATHAM not good? you laid them both down in the hall? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you take them to the dining room? IAN HUNTLEY no, Holly was near the dining room but not in it. MR LATHAM and Jessica? IAN HUNTLEY hallway. MR LATHAM you were thinking all the time, weren't you,? IAN HUNTLEY no, the only thing I was thinking that I needed to get them out of my house. MR LATHAM you were beginning to calculate, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY the only thing I was calculating at that time was to get them out of my house as soon as possible. MR LATHAM the thing you were calculating was how can you avoid being caught, that was what you were thinking, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that came after I put the girls into the boot. MR LATHAM it happened before you ever took the girls out of the house, from the moment you started to carry those two bodies downstairs you were looking after number one, weren't you, how am I going to get away with this, you were thinking, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY not exactly sure. I just needed to get the girls out of the house. MR LATHAM let me suggest while, with your calculating, having put the bodies on the hall floor, you decided you were going to put them in the boot of the car, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM which meant opening the front door, didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM what did you do with one of the bodies before you opened the front door, you told us yesterday? IAN HUNTLEY I moved Holly to the side of the staircase so that nobody could see from the door. MR LATHAM absolutely. before you even opened the front door, you calculated on whether or not you would be seen doing what you were about to do? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were thinking quite logically and very carefully, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I was thinking. MR LATHAM the boot was still open? IAN HUNTLEY no, I closed the boot before I came back into the house. MR LATHAM you closed the boot when you first went back into the house? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you realised you could get these two bodies into the boot without anybody seeing, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't for certain - if I could do it unseen or not. MR LATHAM you did your best, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you use one of those form blankets? IAN HUNTLEY one of---- MR LATHAM the form blankets? IAN HUNTLEY form blankets. MR LATHAM there was a blanket underneath the stairs the police officer saw? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't use---- MR LATHAM when the house was first searched it was one of the occasions you got rather irate and nervous? IAN HUNTLEY that was according to the officer. MR LATHAM according to the officer, yes? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't, didn't have anything---- MR LATHAM you just put the two bodies into the boot? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM did you have the parcel shelf in the car? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so how did you get the bodies into the boot with the parcel shelf up, was it an easy fit? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM how did you do it? IAN HUNTLEY just put them into the boot of the car. MR LATHAM just put them into the boot. did you have to fold them to get them into the boot? IAN HUNTLEY (inaudible) MR LATHAM I am sorry I can't hear you? IAN HUNTLEY I had to bend their legs slightly. MR LATHAM you had to bend the legs? you were behaving quite ruthlessly, weren't you, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes, what I did was ruthless. MR LATHAM yes, cold and ruthless? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you didn't care a bit for those two girls? IAN HUNTLEY that's not true. MR LATHAM They were no use to you any more, were they? IAN HUNTLEY they was never use to me in the first place - in the terms that you mean. MR LATHAM then you started thinking about forensic evidence? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM You don't want the bodies to be found - I don't want the bodies identified, I don't want to be linked to the bodies was going through your head, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you went and got a petrol can? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM where was it? IAN HUNTLEY in Lodeside office. MR LATHAM it lives in the hangar, that red petrol can, doesn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, it lives in Lodeside office. MR LATHAM you were thinking logically enough to remember there was a petrol can? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you not only got a petrol can, what else did you get? IAN HUNTLEY two black bags. MR LATHAM two black bags. what were they for? IAN HUNTLEY to put over my feet. MR LATHAM to put over your feet, because you were thinking that you were going to be walking in a muddy field, you told us? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were already thinking about what you were going to do with these bodies, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, because I had to get them out of my house. MR LATHAM but you were going to find somewhere suitable to put them and it was going to be somewhere muddy. and you were going to do what,burn them? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM having got the petrol can, it goes into the footwell, with the bin bags, yes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you lock your front door when you went off to get the petrol can? IAN HUNTLEY I can't recall. MR LATHAM when you came back with the petrol can and put it in the car, then what did you do? IAN HUNTLEY drove. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY drove. MR LATHAM did you drive straight away or did you wait a bit? IAN HUNTLEY I think I drove straight away. MR LATHAM so it would have been daylight still? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it was. MR LATHAM do I understand that you are saying that, in effect, you drove on auto pilot and suddenly found yourself in Wangford? IAN HUNTLEY no, what I'm saying is I didn't have no destination in mind when I got into the car. MR LATHAM what did you want to do? as you got into the car, what is the plan? IAN HUNTLEY to dispose of Holly and Jessica. MR LATHAM in what way? IAN HUNTLEY by leaving them somewhere. MR LATHAM by? IAN HUNTLEY by putting them somewhere. MR LATHAM putting them where? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't know where at the time. MR LATHAM but what sort of place? IAN HUNTLEY some deserted place. MR LATHAM yes. there are any number of, or is, any number of places you could have chosen, as you set off out of Soham. that's right isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM yet you ended up driving for over half an hour, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM during that time you must have driven, which ever way you went, past fields, ditches, quiet places, yes? you must have done? we have all been there, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I just drove down the country roads to----. MR LATHAM you must have driven past any number of places which fulfilled the criteria of a field or somewhere quiet where you could burn the bodies? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM but you didn't stop at any of those places, did you? IAN HUNTLEY no, it was on a road. MR LATHAM you went to Wangford and to the track we all know about didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY in the end, yes. MR LATHAM of all the places you could have gone to, you knew that track didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I had never been down that track before. I only stayed with my father at Keepers Cottage for, I think it was, two weeks and it was in the winter and didn't own a car then. MR LATHAM did you walk over there? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM how long has your grandmother lived there? IAN HUNTLEY Lakenheath? MR LATHAM yes? IAN HUNTLEY A couple of years, I think. MR LATHAM and you, with the specific interest in the airbase, looking for places to watch that other people don't go to, had no idea that track existed? IAN HUNTLEY no, I used to park my car on the corner to Keepers Cottage, that was the best view. MR LATHAM you may not have driven up the track before you knew it was there, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I knew there were tracks leading off that road, yes. MR LATHAM and you knew it would be a really good place to hide those two bodies, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't actually think of the track - or any specific track for that matter - until I was actually on the corner to Keepers Cottage. MR LATHAM the one thing you wouldn't have done is to set off up a track not knowing what you were driving up, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I decided at the time I drove down that track (inaudible) when I was actually at Keepers Cottage. MR LATHAM You wouldn't have driven up that track not knowing what you were going to meet when you got up there; you might have got stuck? IAN HUNTLEY yes, my car nearly did. MR LATHAM you went there because you knew it existed and you realised it would be a very good place to hide those bodies, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY that's why I went down there in the end, yes. MR LATHAM you took something else that night, didn't you, apart from the petrol and bin bags? IAN HUNTLEY that was all I picked up from Lodeside office. MR LATHAM remind us again the purpose of the bin bags? IAN HUNTLEY to cover my feet. MR LATHAM what else were you going to be using, apart from your feet, when you came to dispose of these bodies, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY petrol. MR LATHAM yes, but what other part of you were you going to end up using apart from your feet? IAN HUNTLEY what other part of? MR LATHAM yes? IAN HUNTLEY sorry, I don't know what you mean. MR LATHAM your hands? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you see, immediately under these bodies were found very small pieces of rubber gloves; did you take some rubber gloves with you on that night? IAN HUNTLEY possibly. MR LATHAM possibly? thank you. So that is another thing you thought about before you set off, is it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it would have been. I forgot about them. MR LATHAM you were thinking with clinical care about this; it was like a military operation, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I wouldn't quite put it like that. MR LATHAM you wouldn't put it quite like that? You are going to cover your shoes, you are going to use petrol, something for your hands, the gloves, and you found the ditch - miles from anywhere where hardly anybody ever went - didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you stopped the car. it would be getting quite dark by then, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY starting to lose light. MR LATHAM it was a very grey day, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM having stopped the car on that track, you then had to lift the bodies, once you had decided the place (inaudible)? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM tell us again how you got the first body into the ditch? IAN HUNTLEY I had to place her at the top of the ditch. MR LATHAM you did what? IAN HUNTLEY I had to place her at the top of the ditch. MR LATHAM and? IAN HUNTLEY then push her so she landed. MR LATHAM you rolled her down? IAN HUNTLEY I had to push so she rolled down, yes. MR LATHAM you rolled her down the side of the ditch. Lie, Mr Huntley, you didn't roll her down you carried her down? IAN HUNTLEY it is too steep to carry anybody down. MR LATHAM if you had rolled her down it would have crushed the nettles and undergrowth - the weight of her body as it rolled down, Mr Huntley. You would have left an entirely different passageway down to the bottom of the ditch? IAN HUNTLEY The bank was far too steep to carry them down, that was my original intention when I got there. I wasn't going to carry them down when I had a look it was too steep. MR LATHAM you did that with both of them? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM explain the logic of cutting clothes off? IAN HUNTLEY to- because of the- I realised the underside of the clothing wouldn't burn and there would be carpet fibres and things on the underside of the clothing, possibly dog hairs. MR LATHAM so you were thinking carefully enough on that night to say to yourself, there may be some carpet fibres on the clothes and the fire I'm going to set may not destroy those fibres on the bits of the clothing on the bottom of the bodies. that's how careful you were thinking, was it? IAN HUNTLEY after I had been the ditch to have look at the track and I climbed back up out of the ditch, that was when I thought of it. MR LATHAM is that how careful you were thinking? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you actually thought about carpet fibres? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that didn't occur to you until you were already in the ditch with the two bodies? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I went down to have look to see what you could see from the track, to see if the track goes down there. MR LATHAM you were invisible from the track weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM then you thought about fibres? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it suddenly came to you, did it, in a flash? IAN HUNTLEY It just struck me as I went back up. MR LATHAM just? IAN HUNTLEY struck me as I went back up. MR LATHAM the first time, as I understood it, you went down with the bin liners on your feet? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, I just went down the grass verge. MR LATHAM then you'd decided to put bin liners on? IAN HUNTLEY yes, because I was going to be going into the ditch then to cut the clothing. MR LATHAM it was all right to tread on the verge, but not down to the bottom of the ditch? IAN HUNTLEY can you repeat that. MR LATHAM it was all right to tread on the edge of the verge, of the ditch, with your shoes on, but not down in the bottom of the ditch? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, the ditch was wet and muddy. MR LATHAM you stood there and wrap your feet and lower legs in these black bin liners? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM down the side of the ditch you went sprinkling petrol, or did you cut the clothes off first? IAN HUNTLEY I cut the clothing off first. MR LATHAM describe that, will you please? IAN HUNTLEY I just cut the clothing off. MR LATHAM describe cutting the clothing off, will you? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know what is to describe, I just, I cut the clothing off. MR LATHAM what did you do? where did you start? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember where I started. MR LATHAM which body did you start with? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM Did you start with the top, or did you start with a pair of trousers? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure. MR LATHAM how did you cut the first items you cut off? IAN HUNTLEY it would have been down the front. MR LATHAM so you snipped down the front of either a pair of tracksuit bottoms or one of those Manchester United tops? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM when you had done that, you got a pretty much naked body, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM why did you cut the pants off? IAN HUNTLEY I just removed all the clothing. MR LATHAM why did you cut the pants off, whichever body it was you started on with the scissors? IAN HUNTLEY I just wanted to remove the clothing, I just thought of getting rid of the clothing. MR LATHAM the pants on your version can't have gone anywhere near the carpet, can they? IAN HUNTLEY no, I just thought of removing the clothing, getting the clothing, to destroy the clothing. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley answer my question, the pants on your version can't have gone anywhere near any carpet, can they? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM or was it the pants might have gone near carpet in your house? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM whichever body you started on, you turned to Holly at some point and cut her bra off as well? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I removed all the clothing. MR LATHAM which involved a deliberate act on your part, didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY to remove the clothing, yes. MR LATHAM to cut the bra meant cutting it in three separate places, didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure. MR LATHAM come on, think about it, you have seen the photographs? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't look at the photographs. MR LATHAM there is the bra, it has been cut in three places. Do you see? you did that, Mr Huntley, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM how could the bra have got any carpet fibres on it? IAN HUNTLEY I just thought of clothing, nothing specific, I just removed the clothing. MR LATHAM and as you were taking the clothing off, what did you do with it? IAN HUNTLEY i put it behind me - I think on to the grass verge - when I got it off, to take it back up to the top of the bank. MR LATHAM then you sprinkled the petrol over the bodies? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you set fire to them? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM then? then what did you do? IAN HUNTLEY took the bags off my feet and put the clothing into the bags. MR LATHAM and then did you reverse out or did you turn the car round? IAN HUNTLEY no, I had to, I had to turn the car round. MR LATHAM did you drive on up the track to find the turning place? IAN HUNTLEY no, I did a three point turn. MR LATHAM you did a three point turn precisely where the bodies were? IAN HUNTLEY it was roughly a three point turn. MR LATHAM and then back you came? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM remembering to fill the red can up? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so what, nobody would notice that you used the petrol? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM was that your thought process? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't actually think---- MR LATHAM Thinking logically again? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't actually think of that, I just put petrol in the can, filled it up. MR LATHAM back to the school and you have the girls clothing with you now, how did you get into the hangar? IAN HUNTLEY I went over to Lodeside hangar, Lodeside office. MR LATHAM you had the keys? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM why did you decide to burn the clothing at the school? IAN HUNTLEY I'm really not sure. MR LATHAM You (inaudible) as you acknowledged to me? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure about it. MR LATHAM the decision, you thought about everything why the hangar? IAN HUNTLEY I really don't know. well, when I was at the college and I was going to get rid of the clothing, the hangar was an outbuilding which is out of the way. MR LATHAM you tell us that you thought even as far as I need the bin outside because if I set the bin on fire in the hangar I may set off the fire alarm; that was your thought process you say went through your mind? IAN HUNTLEY that was something which struck me when I got to the hangar, yes. MR LATHAM you say you took somethi