Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman - Documents 02/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Tuesday, 02 December 2003 SKY News Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear. Page 01 02 03 MR LATHAM they came into your house, didn't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes, they did. MR LATHAM by then you had washed Sadie, had you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM perhaps I had better deal with that as a separate topic. So in the night, some time before you took the dog handler round but after you had seen the people outside the sports centre at 10.30, you gave Sadie a bath? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM is that when you ran the bath water out or did you wash Sadie in the bath that Holly had drowned in? IAN HUNTLEY after I had put Holly and Jessica into the boot of the car I went back into the house and I emptied the bath, the sink and cleaned the sick up off the landing. That is the time I changed my shoes as well. MR LATHAM when did you clean up the bed clothing? IAN HUNTLEY the bed clothing. MR LATHAM yes? IAN HUNTLEY that would have been probably Monday. all I did was just get a wet cloth to the spot of blood that was on the sheet. MR LATHAM you managed to wipe a blood, a dried blood mark out of the sheet, what with? IAN HUNTLEY it was just a warm cloth. it didn't come out completely. MR LATHAM you cleaned it up properly then? IAN HUNTLEY that was just the condition I left it in. MR LATHAM well, was it Maxine who put the not-properly-cleaned-up sheet in the washing machine in the ensuing fortnight? IAN HUNTLEY Maxine regularly cleans the bedding along with everything else. MR LATHAM you couldn't get the blood out of the bed properly? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM so she would have seen it, would she? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know because the quilt would have been over the sheet. MR LATHAM when she took the sheet off to put it in the washing machine she would have seen it, would she? IAN HUNTLEY not necessarily, she often just pulls the bedding off and scrunches it up. MR LATHAM so she is particular, isn't she? IAN HUNTLEY she is particular, yes. MR LATHAM so you ran another bath, another 6 to 8 inch bath, did you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM was the dog prepared to go upstairs? IAN HUNTLEY sorry. MR LATHAM the dog prepared to go upstairs or did you have to carry Sadie upstairs? IAN HUNTLEY No, she was prepared to go upstairs. MR LATHAM does she have the run of the house in fact? IAN HUNTLEY no, she didn't. I took her, I let her out of the bathroom and I went to the stairs, told her to stay and then when I was half-way up the stairs I called her and she came. didn't mention the word bath otherwise she wouldn't have come. MR LATHAM you have never, ever bathed the dog before? IAN HUNTLEY I have bathed the dog many times. MR LATHAM (Inaudible) in number 5, she had not got mucky there before? You lifted her in? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I had to take my shirt off and I lifted her into the bath. MR LATHAM did she want to stay in the bath? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM she would have been up to her knees, as it were, in water? IAN HUNTLEY yes, she weren't happy. MR LATHAM and you what, rolled your trouser leg up? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM took your trousers off? IAN HUNTLEY I took my jeans off, yes. MR LATHAM and stepped with one barefoot into the bath? IAN HUNTLEY no, I stood in the bath. MR LATHAM so you are standing, what, astride her in the bath are you? IAN HUNTLEY stood slightly behind her, not necessary astride. MR LATHAM to try and wash her, which way was she facing? IAN HUNTLEY she would have been facing away from the taps. MR LATHAM towards the airing cupboard end? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and what was it that happened? IAN HUNTLEY she was wriggling and struggling, trying to get out of the bath as she sometimes does and I was trying to restrain her and lost my footing. MR LATHAM you lost your footing? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that's another accident in the bathroom? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the third accident that night? IAN HUNTLEY that's what happened. MR LATHAM in losing your footing you broke the bath? IAN HUNTLEY yes, its only a flimsy plastic thing. MR LATHAM you say it is a flimsy plastic bath, but you very often have showers in them? IAN HUNTLEY yes they do, we had a shower head. MR LATHAM people stand in baths, they don't break all the time? IAN HUNTLEY this was the side of the bath, my foot went into the side of the bath. MR LATHAM your barefoot? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM as you were standing up, you slid your barefoot down the side of the bath? IAN HUNTLEY lost my balance and my foot, my foot, it went into the side of the bath. MR LATHAM this didn't happen? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, it did happen. MR LATHAM anyway you got her out of the bath, dried her down, and what was happening to the water in the bath after you split the bath? IAN HUNTLEY the water had run thorough the hole. MR LATHAM how much? IAN HUNTLEY I couldn't say how much, there was still water in the bath. MR LATHAM still water in the bath? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you realise you had cracked the bath when you had this accident? IAN HUNTLEY not at first no, I heard a sound and I looked and you could see the bath was cracked. MR LATHAM what sound did you hear? IAN HUNTLEY you could hear water running, I pulled the plug out of the bath. MR LATHAM you have seen the bath, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY I have, yes. MR LATHAM in court? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM there is a vertical crack isn't there? IAN HUNTLEY that's right yes. MR LATHAM stuck to the bottom of the bath, it is part of its construction, is a thick sheet of chipboard, isn't there? IAN HUNTLEY where is this chipboard? MR LATHAM stuck to the bow of the bath, part of the construction, to give it rigidity? IAN HUNTLEY I have never seen that before. MR LATHAM it is there, the bath was put up with the sheet of chipboard on the bottom? IAN HUNTLEY I couldn't see the bath sat in there. MR LATHAM at the bottom of the crack that's where the water would be flowing through - if you are right - through the crack and down? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it would flow straight down the outside of the bath, wouldn't it, towards the bottom? IAN HUNTLEY it would flow through the crack in the bath. MR LATHAM down the side of the bath towards the bottom? IAN HUNTLEY yes, yes it would. MR LATHAM where it would meet the chipboard? IAN HUNTLEY all I can say, it would run down the side of the bath. MR LATHAM run down the side of the bath to this exposed piece of virgin chipboard on the bottom of the bath and you have got, what, gallons of water going through this damage in the bath, have you? IAN HUNTLEY no, there weren't gallons of water. MR LATHAM how much? IAN HUNTLEY there was about---- MR LATHAM was the bath full? IAN HUNTLEY no, there was about 6 to 8 inches in it. MR LATHAM gallons of water you say? IAN HUNTLEY I heard the water sound and I pulled the plug out of the bath so that would have prevented a lot of water going through the crack I think. MR LATHAM any volume of water that came through that crack would have run straight down on to the chipboard? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it would. MR LATHAM chipboard, when it gets soaking wet, you know what happens to chipboard? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, I used to work for a plasterboard factory. MR LATHAM it turns to something like porridge? IAN HUNTLEY it - you wet it enough it goes something like sludge. MR LATHAM there wasn't a mark on that? IAN HUNTLEY the water went through that crack and that's how the dining room and table got wet. MR LATHAM you now have water going from that chipboard, finding its way down into the floor boards, yes? IAN HUNTLEY that's what took the lights down, the water. MR LATHAM absolutely. That's what I want to examine with you. you say when you went downstairs. The spotlight that had been screwed to the ceiling had dropped off the ceiling? IAN HUNTLEY no, it was hanging by one end. MR LATHAM hanging by the ceiling but the screws had come out of the plasterboard? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, it had made the plaster soggy. MR LATHAM in order to have made the plasterboard soggy enough for the screws not to be able to hold the plasterboard it would have had to have been totally soaked? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM Over the long length, (inaudible) screw on the spotlight track? IAN HUNTLEY it is screwed either side of the hole. MR LATHAM but a distance apart? IAN HUNTLEY yes, but it was only coming off at one end, it as hanging, the other end was perfectly intact. MR LATHAM it has ended up with no damage to the plasterboard? IAN HUNTLEY it released the screws enough to hang down, if you heard the evidence from the man from (inaudible) the last prosecution witness? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM no evidence of any major flooding to the chipboard ceiling at all? IAN HUNTLEY all I can say enough water came down for the light to be hanging from one end, the officers themselves the following day saw the wires and everything. MR LATHAM I am not contesting the track was down the next day? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure what it is you are suggesting then. MR LATHAM I have got a question for you Mr Huntley what happened in the dining room while Holly and Jessica were in the house? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't even go into the dining room. MR LATHAM so you say, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY how would going into the dining room effect the lights? I don't understand. MR LATHAM because by the time the incident with Holly and Jessica was over, you needed - apart from anything else - to give the carpet a really good clean didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no I had to mop up some water off the carpet that's all I did. MR LATHAM what curtains did Maxine wash for you when she got back? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know. MR LATHAM The dining room curtains. Why was it necessary to put the dining room curtains through the washing machine, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't know that she had done that until I read in the statement she washed a pair of curtains. MR LATHAM something happened in that dining room that involved the need for a real clean up Mr Huntley, what was it? IAN HUNTLEY Maxine is always washing carpets, curtains, everything, she cleans everything, even the underside of a table. MR LATHAM the carpet was nothing to do with her. You acknowledged whatever happened to that carpet happened when she was not there? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that's right. MR LATHAM you pulled that light fitting down. There was no flood in that ceiling was there? IAN HUNTLEY Didn't pull the light fitting down. MR LATHAM you are capable of it though aren't you? IAN HUNTLEY anybody is capable of pulling a light fitting down. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley is to have a break. would that been an appropriate moment. MR JUSTICE MOSES (inaudible)? IAN HUNTLEY I would like a break, please. MR JUSTICE MOSES half past three (short adjournment) MR LATHAM bottom of page 8 of the chronology, 1 o'clock on the Monday, two police officers came to see you at number 5, didn't they? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM They spent quite a bit of time in your home, they had a search? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM And took a witness statement? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM the weather was terrible, wasn't it, pouring with rain? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM out on the washing line was washing? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM what was it that you had put on the washing line? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know what was on the washing line. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know what was on the washing line, that stuff had been out there since Maxine had gone away. MR LATHAM Maxine is a tidy person, isn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes, she is. MR LATHAM A careful person? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she knew she was going to Grimsby? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM for what she thought was a week? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she would not set off, Mr Huntley, leaving washing on the line? IAN HUNTLEY no. She often left washing on the line. MR LATHAM she is going away? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that's washing you put on the line isn't it ? IAN HUNTLEY no, I don't know what was on the line. MR LATHAM you told them about the dog being very muddy and the flood and so on didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did. MR LATHAM and that you had been drying and grooming the dog when you saw the two girls? IAN HUNTLEY I had been what - sorry. MR LATHAM you had been drying and grooming the dog when you saw the two girls? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't say drying. MR LATHAM grooming in any event? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and that you had spent the rest of the evening at home? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM in effect, the account you were to advance in public right the way through to your arrest? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM by that stage you were talking in the plural, weren't you, "we did this" and "we did that"? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't. MR LATHAM because, as a result of that, they actually asked you where Maxine was, didn't they? IAN HUNTLEY they did ask me where Maxine was. MR LATHAM you said Maxine was out having an interview for a child-minding job somewhere in Soham, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no I said she was out and about, I don't know where she is. MR LATHAM you mentioned she was having a child minding interview? IAN HUNTLEY no, didn't, Maxine already had a child minding job lined up. MR LATHAM those two police officers who came into your home only came in that once, didn't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I think so. MR LATHAM they both told us that you spoke about that? IAN HUNTLEY then all I suggest is they have got their heads together and said that, I didn't say that. MR LATHAM got their heads together? I suggest that by this point, one o'clock, middle of the day on the Monday, you knew that Maxine would give you an alibi? IAN HUNTLEY no, I had already dismissed that idea with Ruth. MR LATHAM you had? IAN HUNTLEY already dismissed that idea with Ruth. me and Ruth had already dismissed that idea. MR JUSTICE MOSES Ruth, I understand that, we had already dismissed that with Ruth is what? IAN HUNTLEY no we had already dismissed that, me and Ruth. MR LATHAM Ruth Oddy? IAN HUNTLEY it is, yes. MR LATHAM another member of the caretaking staff? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you see, I suggest to you that you made it quite clear to those officers that she was in or around Soham? IAN HUNTLEY no, I said she was out and about but I didn't know where. I didn't give the impression that she was there but I didn't give the impression that she wasn't either. MR LATHAM because you had already sorted your alibi out, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM almost as soon as they were gone you got sorted out to change tyres didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY that would have been mid-afternoon. MR LATHAM yes you drove over to Ely? IAN HUNTLEY yes I did. MR LATHAM the invoice that would come at the end of the transaction is 3.36 in the afternoon? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so you would have got there, quarter to thee to three o'clock? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM to have all four tyres changed and indeed at quarter past three you were speaking to somebody in the college weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY what time, sorry? MR LATHAM 3.16, to be precise, 15.16. you see that? are you on page 8? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM 15.16, Soham college kitchen to your mobile at the Ely sales site? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the purpose you have told us to change those tyres, for changing those tyres, on the Monday, was to conceal, literally to conceal your tracks, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM before this Jury was empanelled to try you, you were in court weren't you when my learned friend Mr Coward stood up and made a formal announcement. do you remember, on the 29th October he stood up and indicated to the court and, in effect, to the prosecution, what was and what wasn't going to be in issue in the trial which was about to start? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember what he said, no. MR LATHAM he made an announcement indicating that the two girls had come into 5 College Close on the 4th August and that they died upstairs at College Close, he made those announcements. Do you remember him standing up right behind where I'm standing now and making a series of announcements? IAN HUNTLEY I remember Mr Coward standing up, yes. MR LATHAM and he started, before he said anything, by saying "What I'm about to say is said in a spirit of cooperation." do you remember that? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM what I'm about to say is the product of extremely difficult discussions over many months which placed an immense strain on all concerned, not least the defendant - that's you do you remember him saying that? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM but he was indicating in Court before this trial, just before this trial started, what was and what was not in issue, wasn't he? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM he set out a whole series of things which included that it wasn't in issue, for example, that you deposited the two bodies where they were found and so on; that was what he announced, yes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM he said this on your behalf, Mr Huntley "Huntley accepts he changed the tyres of the Ford Fiesta but avers that the change was unconnected with the events in issue". In other words, it had nothing whatsoever to do with the deaths of the two girls. That's what he said on your behalf on the 29th October, Mr Huntley. now you tell us for the first time yesterday that in fact it has everything to do with the deaths of these two girls? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you have changed your story again, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY there are two reasons I changed my tyres. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY there is two reasons I changed my tyres. MR LATHAM you just agreed with me there was a primary reason for changing the tyres; it was to cover, as I put it literally, to cover your tracks? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM your own counsel was saying as recently as 29th October that it was unconnected with the events in issue. you have changed your story again, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY as I said, there was two reasons. MR LATHAM the thing he said immediately before that was this "Huntley has no memory of Jessica Chapman having her mobile telephone with her"? IAN HUNTLEY that's right. MR LATHAM that's come to you, has it, in a flash of inspiration since the 29th October, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY things have been coming back to me gradually since July. MR LATHAM or is it that you have realised that it is just impossible to deny the telephone and impossible to deny the change of tyres? IAN HUNTLEY no, as I said, things have been coming back to me since July. MR LATHAM but it is not since July, this is 29th October this was said, days before this Jury was empanelled to try you. MR LATHAM you changed your story even during this trial, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, there was, I was concentrating on the main ssues, the main issues and sorting through them. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, when you spoke to your mother, I'm not going over the ground again, you were quite capable in October of last year of picking your way through the prosecution case and deciding what the story was? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not picking my way through at all. MR LATHAM you were thinking carefully about the cover up when you went off to Ely Tyre Services, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you paid cash, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY it was money that the school had given me. MR LATHAM the school had given you a cash float for the summer holidays? IAN HUNTLEY that money was supposed to have gone into the bank later that week. MR LATHAM you were using that money so that this would be, as it were, an invisible transaction? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't think the money was at hand, it seemed pointless to put the money in the bank only to use a (inaudible) car or something. MR LATHAM you didn't use the... doing anything which could lead the police to find out what you had done, did you? IAN HUNTLEY no, what I'm saying is that that didn't come to mind what you have just suggested. MR LATHAM of course it did. it was a false registration number on the invoice? IAN HUNTLEY yes I don't dispute that. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY I don't dispute that. MR LATHAM yes, you were covering your tracks, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM about paying cash, there would be no record of the transaction for your bank statement, would there? IAN HUNTLEY no, there wouldn't, the cash was in the house, it seemed pointless putting that cash into the bank only to rewithdraw another amount of money or use switch. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley if you had used any sort of paper transaction, it could have been traced back to you? IAN HUNTLEY yes I can see why you are saying it. MR LATHAM you didn't want it tracing back do you, did you? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM 17.58 you spoke to Maxine, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that call lasted until 9 minutes past 6, you see that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and then at 35 minutes past 6 you spoke to her again until 38 minutes past 6. you see that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you spoke to her for the best part of 15 minutes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were putting your heads together during that conversation, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, it was to tell her that I had managed to arrange to pick her up and to tell her what had been going on during the course of the day and the police officer that had been round to the house. MR LATHAM you told her that the girls had been in the house, one of them had had a nosebleed and so on and so forth, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no I didn't tell her that until later on in the week. MR LATHAM so she has got that completely wrong when she admits it to your mother, in that telephone call to your mother? IAN HUNTLEY that was later on in the week. I believe it would have been Wednesday or Thursday when I told her - about, or Tuesday or Wednesday. MR LATHAM you told her that early evening? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM it doesn't take 15 minutes to arrange to come and collect her, Mr Huntley. you two were putting your heads together, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY a lot happened that day, I was talking through what had happened, that I had the police officers in the house, what they had done in the house, things like that. MR LATHAM you were having a clean-up in the house, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I was Hoovering the carpets, yes. MR LATHAM and there was a strong smell of lemon as well wasn't there? IAN HUNTLEY at the lunch time there would have been, yes, I had just washed the pots. MR LATHAM you were having a major clean-up? IAN HUNTLEY the lemon smell is from washing the pots. MR LATHAM not just washing the pots? IAN HUNTLEY we have lemon washing up liquid. MR LATHAM you were cleaning the house up - to do your best to remove any signs of the presence of Holly and Jessica, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I was cleaning the house, yes. MR LATHAM one of the things you had been taught, as it so happened, is the use of bleach, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I have. MR LATHAM yes. do you use bleach on the walls in this house? IAN HUNTLEY no, I have never used bleach in the house, I don't do the cleaning in the house. MR LATHAM did you use bleach on these walls at some stage between the Sunday night and you arrest? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't use bleach. MR LATHAM did Maxine? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure what Maxine would use to clean the house. MR LATHAM I'm talking about the walls. do you understand what I'm talking about? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I do understand what you are talking about. MR LATHAM I'm not talking about normal domesticity? IAN HUNTLEY when Maxine is cleaning the house I try to stay out of the way. MR LATHAM you see there were no fingerprints, there was no DNA in this house by the time the police searched it. you know that, don't you? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, I do. MR LATHAM no hairs from the girls this is a house that had been subjected to a very, very careful clean-up, hadn't it? IAN HUNTLEY that's the way our house always is. Maxine has an illness and part of that illness is cleaning, it is to do with control. MR LATHAM the clean-up had started before she ever came back from Grimsby, the smell of lemon? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, I had done some cleaning, yes. MR LATHAM the washing on the line? IAN HUNTLEY the washing on the line was there before. MR LATHAM you told us you were hoovering? IAN HUNTLEY yes I was. MR LATHAM you don't normally hoover, do you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I don't. MR LATHAM almost immediately after you spent 15 minutes talking to Maxine you had a concerted clean up of the Fiesta, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY on the Monday evening I did, yes. MR LATHAM Immediately after you first had spoken to Maxine that morning you were out knocking on doors weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY Monday morning. MR LATHAM yes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM immediately after you spoke to her in the early evening, for 15 minutes, you are out cleaning the car up, aren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she did, she put that in your mind? IAN HUNTLEY no, she didn't. MR LATHAM one of the things a witness saw was a professionally fitted boot carpet in the boot? IAN HUNTLEY that carpet has not been in my car for a while. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, we all know what a factory fitted boot carpet looks like in a car, don't we? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM doesn't matter whether you know what a Fiesta was like in the boot or anything, whatever it is, a factory fitted boot carpet looks like precisely that, and we know what it looks like, don't we? IAN HUNTLEY people have also described me as wearing shorts. MR LATHAM will you answer the question? IAN HUNTLEY I have done. MR LATHAM we all know----. MR JUSTICE MOSES (inaudible) I think he has acknowledged (inaudible). MR LATHAM you are described as hitting the boot carpet by one witness? IAN HUNTLEY no, that was the footwell mats. MR LATHAM you spent a long time cleaning that car up didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes , I spent time cleaning it up. MR LATHAM doing your best to remove any evidence of the fact, the cargo you had in it the previous night? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you cleaned it up so it was cleaner than it had been for months? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because in order to get out the little clues, you have got to get out everything else, haven't you? IAN HUNTLEY I just hoovered and wiped it down. MR LATHAM that car, by the time you had finished with it, looked smarter than it had looked for months, didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you washed it as well, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM you washed it as well, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure if I actually washed the car I said I remember - yes, I think I may have cleaned the outside, yes yes. MR LATHAM and you were thinking calmly enough to remember the take the video back to Blockbuster? IAN HUNTLEY I remembered that (inaudible). MR LATHAM you returned the tape? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you weren't overwhelmed by what you had done? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM you were thinking perfectly logically that day, lying to the police, changing tyres, cleaning the car up and sorting Maxine out. Those were all things you were to do, weren't they? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM at 9.30 that evening you spoke to the witness Fordham. you see that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM one of the things you said to that witness at the end of the conversation was that the missus got my tea ready and I'm hungry? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't say that. MR LATHAM another---- MR JUSTICE MOSES I don't like (inaudible)? IAN HUNTLEY I told her I had to go because my tea was getting cold. MR LATHAM you made it quite clear the missus was in the house? IAN HUNTLEY no, I told her I had to go, my tea was getting cold. MR LATHAM you wondered if Maxine would be back and you wanted an alibi to be running as quickly as possible, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I had fish and chips in my hand. MR LATHAM you implied to the officers who were there at lunch time that she was about; you were implying to this witness that she was about? IAN HUNTLEY no, I weren't. MR LATHAM you spoke to her again at 10.41 that night from the kitchen, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM in order to go into the Lodeside site to do that, you deactivated the alarm, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY deactivated the alarm, yes. MR LATHAM why? IAN HUNTLEY because that (inaudible) in the kitchen. MR LATHAM you spoke to her for six minutes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM which would be 22.47? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM at 22.50, within minutes of putting the phone down, you bump into the group of special constables, Redhead, Thwaites and Goldsmith and so on? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM And come up with the story of seeing a man with a bin bag running away across the fields? IAN HUNTLEY I had gone home to collect cigarettes and on the way out I was walking toward the tennis courts, that's when I see a person running I---- MR LATHAM this is another of your stories to divert attention isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, its not. MR LATHAM purely by chance? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't suggest that person was in any way involved. MR LATHAM you knew that there was a possibility that bin bags might become relevant didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM bin bags in which there had been clothing; indeed, bin bags, you say, you had on your feet? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, they went into the skip. MR LATHAM you are saying, are you, this is a total coincidence, there actually was a strange man running across the field with a black bin bag? IAN HUNTLEY there was somebody walking across. I caught his attention, he looked at me, carried on walking. I called again and that person ran off round the corner of the building towards the field. MR LATHAM this was a total invention, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, it wasn't. MR LATHAM this is the same as the red Fiesta, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM what was the purpose of reporting that to the special Constable? IAN HUNTLEY because people don't run across like that carrying a bag every single day. I'm responsible for the security of the college, that's my job. MR LATHAM (inaudible) everybody was there to do with the disappearance of the girls, that's what all the police officers----? IAN HUNTLEY that's to say the police would not be interested in any burglary or anything like that. MR LATHAM just like the red Fiesta, if anybody comes up with a suspicious red Fiesta, if anybody comes up with a suspicious man with a bin bag, you can say you have already reported it, that's what this is about isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, it is not. MR LATHAM and it happened three minutes after you put the phone down having been talking to Maxine? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM yes. you two were putting your heads together on the telephone during that day, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, like many of your suggestions, that's wrong. MR LATHAM page 10 of the chronology. the next morning you set off to go and retrieve her from Grimsby, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were driving a motor car which you had transformed the previous day, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I said cleaned, yes. MR LATHAM I am suggesting she would not have noticed necessarily it had four brand new tyres, but it had had a spring clean, hadn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you did not normally clean the car, did you? IAN HUNTLEY actually, before I went on a long journey we do usually clean the car. MR LATHAM the inside as well? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM on the inside as well? IAN HUNTLEY usually just the inside. MR LATHAM when the two of you looked up from the out of the car and she looked up she was crying, wasn't she? IAN HUNTLEY I can't recall. MR LATHAM you heard Mrs Cliff's evidence didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, I don't remember seeing a neighbour there all. MR LATHAM she described Maxine standing with you at the open boot of that car crying? IAN HUNTLEY Maxine's stuff went onto the back seat of the car. I don't see why we would have gone to the boot of the car. MR LATHAM are you saying now the boot was never even open? IAN HUNTLEY I am saying I can't recall the boot being open. MR LATHAM can you recall Maxine standing at the back of the car in tears? IAN HUNTLEY no, I can't. . MR LATHAM she spotted the Fiesta had been transformed and she did she didn't say anything? IAN HUNTLEY (inaudible) MR LATHAM I suggest there was a new piece of carpet in the boot too? IAN HUNTLEY no, the carpet had been there for a while. MR LATHAM on the way back you picked up that hitch hiker, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, we did. MR LATHAM the one to whom you said that woman "supposedly" saw the girls on the Monday, do you remember that utterance of yours? IAN HUNTLEY sorry. MR LATHAM That utterance of yours to the hitchhiker. I was the last person to see her until the woman "supposedly" saw them in the Monday morning? IAN HUNTLEY I remember saying something about the woman. MR LATHAM "supposedly"---- IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember the words. MR LATHAM that was a slip-up, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY if that was what I said, yes. MR LATHAM because it was only the person at that stage who knew they were dead who would say with certainty that that woman was wrong - and of course you knew she was wrong? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I would have done. MR LATHAM you said that in the presence of Maxine who was participating in the conversation, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY if that was what I said, then, yes. MR LATHAM that same day you got back to the college you reported the red Fiesta to someone again, didn't you? it is not on the chronology there. you mentioned that red Fiesta more than once to people, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I was trying to clarify the colour of the car that had been reported to me a few weeks prior, to whether it was white or red. MR LATHAM it wasn't mentioned just in passing, it was mentioned in relation to the police's interest in the disappearance of Holly and Jessica. We have been through this, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM this was (inaudible)? IAN HUNTLEY no, that part wasn't, I have (inaudible) to putting (inaudible) in various circumstances. MR LATHAM what did Maxine say to you as she walked through the door of the house? IAN HUNTLEY didn't go into the house with Maxine. MR LATHAM the first time you saw Maxine in the house after she got back? IAN HUNTLEY I really don't know. MR LATHAM You had suddenly become all house-proud of course, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I had done some cleaning, yes. MR LATHAM the car was all cleaned up. IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM now the house is all cleaned up? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM as a house-proud person as you describe her as being she would have noticed, wouldn't she? IAN HUNTLEY she noticed that it was cleaner than usual, yes. MR LATHAM cleaner than usual? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM of course by the Wednesday the two of you had sorted out this entirely false story you were going to write, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY Wednesday or Thursday, yes. MR LATHAM Wednesday is on page 11 of the chronology. that's the day various police officers searched the hangar isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it is. MR LATHAM you are saying the clothing was already there? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM or was it the other way round, that by lunchtime you knew the police had searched the hangar so the hangar was a safe place? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM because you certainly were conscious that they had searched it and finished with it by lunchtime, hadn't they? IAN HUNTLEY on Tuesday. MR LATHAM Wednesday? IAN HUNTLEY sorry. yes, yes I was. MR LATHAM you had to with Gee to unlock it for them to give them the opportunity to go through it and when they finished they said "Thank you very much", and locked up again, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so that was one that could be crossed off, as it were, as far as the police were concerned, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY the police weren't searching for clothes, they was actually searching for the two missing girls. MR LATHAM but they had had a search there? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and it was the same day that the police discovered that in fact Holly and Jessica could be seen on the CCTV and you learned that didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I learnt it at some point, yes. MR LATHAM you realised the timing on the CCTV wouldn't fit with the timings you had been given to the police and to people you had spoken to, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I had been guessing at the time. MR LATHAM you told Sergeant Mead at 10.30 that morning, having covered about the CCTV, that you wanted to change the time in your statement, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct, yes. MR LATHAM you were trying to stay one step ahead weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I realised I had got my times wrong. MR LATHAM and you didn't want that to be suspicious, did you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM you actually had the red petrol can in your hands that day in the office, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY the petrol can would have been in the office on the Wednesday. MR LATHAM it may have been in the office, you actually had in in your hands on that Wednesday IAN HUNTLEY Sorry the red petrol can wouldn't have been in the office on the Wednesday. MR LATHAM where was it? IAN HUNTLEY the petrol can would have been back in my car on the Tuesday. MR LATHAM why in the car on Tuesday? IAN HUNTLEY because I was going on a long journey down to Grimsby and there was a smell of petrol in my car. MR LATHAM nothing wrong with the car as far as petrol was concerned when it was serviced a short while ago, was there? IAN HUNTLEY no, but one of the caretakers also observed a smell in the car. MR LATHAM so the red petrol can, it is wrong if it is described as being in your office on the Wednesday? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM at 11 o'clock on that Wednesday, Mr Mahoney a contractor, was invited by you into number 5, wasn't he? IAN HUNTLEY he was, yes. MR LATHAM he met Maxine there as well? IAN HUNTLEY Yes(?) MR LATHAM And there was some discussion, apart from anything else, about the missing girls wasn't there? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM Maxine raised the card that she had had from Holly, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure. MR LATHAM and told him she had heard the card delivered over the weekend? IAN HUNTLEY no that card was given to her at the college, sorry the school. MR LATHAM that was not what she said to Mr Mahoney. She implied she had been in the house when the card had been delivered? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember the conversation so I can't answer that. MR LATHAM by then you two were running the alibi conspiracy weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY Wednesday/Thursday. MR LATHAM you spoke to Sergeant Cooper about the red Fiesta didn't you, at around midday? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM during the course of the afternoon you spoke to several people about DNA, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM nothing to do with fibres, you were talking about DNA, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you knew, and you had it confirmed by the people that you spoke to, it meant nowadays it is possible with very sensitive tests to detect someone's DNA on something? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you were worried about DNA weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I was. MR LATHAM actually floated at Special Constable Gilbert the previous caretaker, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I did what, sorry. MR LATHAM the previous caretaker, you floated Mr C******* and his reason for his dismissal, at Special Constable Gilbert, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I did say that to a police officer. MR LATHAM that was the scene of suspicion to divert attention from you? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM that could have got Mr C****** into the most desperate trouble, couldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY thinking about it yes, it could. MR LATHAM you didn't care, did you? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't think about that to be honest. MR LATHAM you didn't care, did you? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't think about it. MR LATHAM as long as it meant that you had got some advantage, that's all that mattered, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't think about it. MR LATHAM after you had spoken to the Special Constable parked near the Sports Centre outside Lodeside site, you shot off to Lakenheath didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no I didn't leave for Lakenheath until about 8 o'clock. MR LATHAM it was 7 o'clock when you were speaking to special Constable Gilbert? IAN HUNTLEY (inaudible). MR LATHAM I don't know if there is a typographical error on your copy, it was 17.00 to 19.00? IAN HUNTLEY it says 17.00 and 20.30. MR LATHAM the evidence given was 19.00; later, 7 o'clock. you were over at your grandmother's in Lakenheath by about 8.30 that evening? IAN HUNTLEY yes. I had been talking to Maxine about going away to my nana's or my mum and dad's. MR LATHAM that's when you went back to the bodies to find them, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't go back. MR LATHAM that's when you cut the clothing off? IAN HUNTLEY No. MR LATHAM and you could take them back to the hangar with confidence because the hangar had been searched by then and you knew that? IAN HUNTLEY I did know that, but that was not the case. MR LATHAM you realised you needed to do that because you were fussed about DNA? IAN HUNTLEY I was, but I had already covered what I needed to cover. MR LATHAM by Thursday, and I turn over the page to page 12, you were speaking to the press weren't you? whether you wanted to or not you were speaking to them? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you made a mistake with Debbie Tubby, didn't you? On the morning of the Thursday, there was going to be an announcement at a press conference and you asked "Have they found the girls' clothes?" IAN HUNTLEY I remember I asked if they had found the girls, not the girls' clothes. MR LATHAM you heard her evidence? IAN HUNTLEY yes I did. MR LATHAM it so happens that conversation was just after the events of the Wednesday, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I wouldn't have asked that question because I would have known straight away if they had found the girls' clothes because they was in the hangar, it is not a question I would have needed to ask. MR LATHAM it was a slip-up, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not aware that I did. I believe I asked if they had found the girls. MR LATHAM you had had clothes on your mind and in particular clothes on your mind not all day Wednesday, fussing about DNA? IAN HUNTLEY as I said that was a question I wouldn't have needed to answer, I would have known if they had found the clothing. MR LATHAM you didn't say they have found; you said, "Have they found"? IAN HUNTLEY that's what I said I would have known if they had found them. I wouldn't need to ask that question, I would have known pretty much straight away if they had. MR LATHAM why? IAN HUNTLEY because I live on site and the hangar is just away from the house. MR LATHAM you were keeping a close eye, were you, on what the police were doing? IAN HUNTLEY I was aware of the police on the site. MR LATHAM then at around midday you had a series of conversations, didn't you, with the press, they came in your home ? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you and Carr were present? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM let's be clear about this, the picture being presented by both of you was that she was in the house on the Sunday, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM so by that stage I suggest it was much, much earlier, but by Thursday midday, the agreement with Maxine had been sealed hadn't it? IAN HUNTLEY by Thursday ? it was still debating it yes. MR LATHAM you both talk in terms on the basis that she had been in the house, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I was talking on the basis to give another statement to the police. MR LATHAM once you are saying it to journalists, you are stuck with it - it is on the record, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and by then that piece of paper had been written out by you with the time on it hadn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and she had seen it, hadn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you must have discussed it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM right, tell us what you discussed, please? IAN HUNTLEY exactly what was on the paper. MR LATHAM what did you say to Maxine? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember what I said. MR LATHAM "...well, Maxine, I'm saying you were in the house on the Sunday evening when the girls came round...". presumably you must have said something like that? IAN HUNTLEY Maxine told, said to me that I was in the house and that was how it came about. MR JUSTICE MOSES she said? IAN HUNTLEY that "I" was in the house - meaning herself. MR LATHAM so it was Maxine's idea, was it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, Maxine put that to me, yes. MR LATHAM would you agree? IAN HUNTLEY not at first, we discussed it. MR LATHAM don't worry about at first? IAN HUNTLEY yes I agreed with it. MR LATHAM there was an agreement between the two of you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the agreement was you would both lie about the circumstances of half past 6 on Sunday, agreed? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the lie was to falsely maintain she would provide you with an alibi, which would corroborate what you were doing, and where you were, and who was and was not in your home. That was what effectively it boiled down to, didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that was done in order to put the police off the scent, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY not from Maxine's point of view, no. MR LATHAM forget Maxine's point of view, the two of you? IAN HUNTLEY you were talking about the two of us? MR LATHAM when you agreed between you to do that, you knew that there was going to come a time when you were going to have to say to the police didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you were saying it to the press? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were pretending that you had somebody to back up your story, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM which would divert attention away from you as a potential suspect, correct? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that's why you were lying to the press and were later to lie to the police? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and she was sitting right next to you, telling the same lie, wasn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and as she told the same lie in the same way that it was diverting attention when you said it, by her backing you up, she was diverting attention as you had. that's right, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I don't think I quite saw it like that. MR LATHAM well, just think about it, Mr Huntley. it makes your story better, doesn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM if someone else supports it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you agreed that she should do that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it is a lie? it is a bare-faced lie? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and the purpose of telling the story is to make your position better, isn't it?