03/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 03 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01
02
Ian Huntley, cross-examination by Mr Latham, continued.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, when we broke yesterday we were looking at
Thursday, 8th August and I think you will find your chronology
there is open at page 12, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
this is the day when you were persuaded by several journalists
to start talking, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
indeed, the first meeting with the journalists took place
in your home at around lunch time, midday, 12.15 or thereabouts?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was quite a long meeting in your home when a group
of journalists talked to both you and Maxine together,
correct?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
I will go through the detail if you ask me, but it was
quite plain, wasn't it, that the two of you were putting
forward the Sunday evening story?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
by story, I mean the lying account of Maxine being in
Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was a story which was embellished by little details
about what had been going on during the course of the
Sunday evening, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
now, that conversation couldn't have happened without
your having had prior discussions with Maxine. That must
be right, mustn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
the truth of the matter is that the two of you had sorted
out this joint story before midday on the Thursday?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and before you could have launched yourself on your account
with any confidence, you would have needed to know in
advance that she was going to back you up, wouldn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
because it would have been a total disaster if you had
started the talk to journalists on the basis, Maxine was
here with me on the Sunday night...., and she had said
in front of witnesses who had their notebooks open - "What
are you talking about, I wasn't here, I was in Grimsby...."
that would have been disaster, wouldn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
therefore when you talked to those journalists, you were
confident that if you gave that account, she would back
you up.... must have been?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the reason you were confident is that you had agreed
with her that that is what your story was going to be?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, we hadn't firmly agreed that was actually----.
MR LATHAM
do you want me to go back through the loop?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, we had not firmly decided. We were both in the same
room when those interviews took place.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, you have been listening to what I have been
asking you in the last two or three minutes?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
it would have been a total disaster if you had said to
these journalists "We were both in the house on the
Sunday night", and she had said anything to indicate
that that was right, because they were sitting there poised
with their journalists' notebooks and the like, weren't
they?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and that would have let the cat out of the bag to the
wide world, wouldn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
they would have gone rushing out of the house, saying,
here we have a man who is giving an account about a crucial
meeting with these girls, and he is suggesting that part
of that account involves his partner, and his partner
has just said it is a lie?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you couldn't risk that, could you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
before that conversation with those journalists started
you knew she would back you up, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I knew that if that's what I said then Maxine would back
me up, yes.
MR LATHAM
and the reason you knew she would back you up is because
you had agreed to tell the story, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, we hadn't agreed. we had discussed it and we had wrote
it down.
MR LATHAM
all right, you had discussed it, but at the end of your
discussions, did she say anything which led you to believe
that when you opened your mouth in front of the journalists
she was going to let you down?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, she didn't.
MR LATHAM
by the time that meeting with the journalists had finished,
it ended up with a radio interview, didn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry, can you say that again?
MR LATHAM
by the end of that meeting with the journalists, which
went on for quite a time, didn't it----
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
----you had the radio interview with Miss Moshiri, didn't
you, the Radio One journalist?
IAN HUNTLEY
there was a radio interview at some point, yes.
MR LATHAM
and so the result of that was that by then you had had
a run-through of the story hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you and Maxine had jointly told a lie, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
I mean, it was a series of lies, but the story was just
a lie, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you lived in the same house with Maxine from that Thursday
onwards, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did you say to Maxine once the journalists had left
and you had your first private moment together?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
thank you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I can't remember. It is a long time ago.
MR LATHAM
that was very helpful?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember what I said, if anything.
MR LATHAM
you must have been very relieved?
IAN HUNTLEY
I really can't remember.
MR LATHAM
well, try?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, you were just about to set off on what became
a series of interviews in which you looked the camera
straight in the eye and the interviewer straight in the
eye and told a pack of lies, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and that pack of lies included injecting false sentiment
and emotion into the equation, didn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I was upset by what had happened.
MR LATHAM
what did you say you were?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
upset by what had happened.
MR LATHAM
that is as may be, Mr Huntley, but you were injecting
a false type of upset, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
what I was saying was untrue but I was genuinely upset.
MR LATHAM
let's look at the radio interview. In the grey bundle,
tab 1. It is after your witness statements, about six
pages on and it starts "copy of a media interview,
Ian Huntley, BBC Radio 1". tab 1. you may like to
look at it, Members of the Jury. have you got it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
this is the interview that was broadcast on Radio 1, or
parts of it, all right? the second hole on the page, the
second ring binder hole, you are describing "...how
the girls were giggly, you know, just they seemed fine,
you know. I don't know, you can't really say." those
are your words, aren't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, they are.
MR LATHAM
then you were asked what direction they were walking away
from you "Where do you think they were going?",
you gave this answer "I don't know where they were
going, but I mean they walked away from my house towards
the bridge which runs over the Lode river towards the
library"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you get that from?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I assumed that they came from the direction of
the Lodeside College.
MR LATHAM
yes, but just think about it. you have told us that when
they came to your house, and you showed them into your
house, you didn't know which direction they had come from?
IAN HUNTLEY
That's correct, I spoke to the neighbours and they said
they had not seen them.
MR LATHAM
they didn't leave your house alive, they didn't walk anywhere
else when they left your house, did they?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
we know that in fact, they had walked past your house
and on up College Road. we know that now, don't we?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the story you were giving to everybody was that, as
they walked past your house and before they went on up
College Road, you had this very short conversation with
them. that was your story, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I assumed they came from the direction of Lodeside.
MR LATHAM
that was your story?
IAN HUNTLEY
that is what I said, yes.
MR LATHAM
which just happens to fit with what we now know was their
initial route, doesn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
it seems so, yes.
MR LATHAM
you saw them walk past your house and on up College Road
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
you were watching?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I weren't watching.
MR LATHAM
let's now look at what you said. This is what I am talking
about when I speak of false emotion, Mr Huntley. Do you
see the question "okay, can I just ask you a few
questions about how you feel?" You see that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
about the fact that they are still missing. you know,
they have been missing for four nights now. How do you
feel about that?". Well, what can you say? "it
is just dreadful you know. I just pray, as I'm sure everybody
else does, that they are alive and well"?
IAN HUNTLEY
I know (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
what are you saying now?
IAN HUNTLEY
I am aware of the lies that I told.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
I am aware of the lies that I told.
MR LATHAM
yes, but it is not just a lie, it is a false sentiment,
isn't it? "I just pray" - to what or to whom,
Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is what I said.
MR LATHAM
to what or to whom were you "just praying"?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's what I said to them.
MR LATHAM
to what or to whom were you "just praying"?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is just what I said to them.
MR LATHAM
to what or to whom were you praying?
IAN HUNTLEY
I knew they wasn't alive.
MR LATHAM
"morale is getting
low around here but everybody in Soham is clinging on
to a glimmer of hope that everything is fine." what
is that about?
IAN HUNTLEY
that is what people in Soham were saying.
MR LATHAM
you were saying Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
devious, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is a lie, yes.
MR LATHAM
not just a lie, it is putting yourself forward as one
of those "clinging on to a glimmer of hope"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I know.
MR LATHAM
the bottom of the page "the people I have spoke to
they are very down" - over the page - "and some
people are holding out little hope. But you know, while
there's no news there's always hope, and I think that's
what everybody has got to cling on to". And all the
time you know they are dead in the ditch, don't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you were quite capable of talking like that, weren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you are quite capable of lying to camera, aren't you Mr
Huntley - or in this case, lying to microphone?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
you are quite capable of lying to microphone, aren't you,
Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
I lied.
MR LATHAM
you are quite capable of making it sound the truth, aren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm telling you the truth up here.
MR LATHAM
Then you go on four lines down, "The environment
round here is a very dangerous environment. I mean anything
that happened (inaudible)." What are you talking
about there?
IAN HUNTLEY
where is it, please?
MR LATHAM
four lines down. "the environment here is a very
dangerous environment." What are you talking about?
IAN HUNTLEY
the landscape.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
the landscape, the geographical area.
MR LATHAM
what is this "dangerous environment" you are
referring to in this interview?
IAN HUNTLEY
just the area around Soham.
MR LATHAM
dangerous in what sense?
IAN HUNTLEY
as in accidents.
MR LATHAM
what sort of accidents?
IAN HUNTLEY
the fields, woods, things like that.
MR LATHAM
fields?
IAN HUNTLEY
woods.
MR LATHAM
so you are implying they may have come to some harm as
a result of nature?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
about eight lines down, you were asked what they were
wearing when you saw them. your answer "the only
thing I can remember, I mean I support the team and that's
a Manchester United top you know, it is very distinctive.
as for the other items of clothing, I really couldn't
tell you. I don't know". That's a clever lie, isn't
it Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is a lie, yes.
MR LATHAM
it is a clever one, because in fact you knew what they
were wearing right down to their underwear because you
cut it all off, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I could have been given a description of their trousers,
yes.
MR LATHAM
you could have given a description of their trousers,
you knew perfectly well what their trousers were like?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were weaving a clever, false story here weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was telling lies, yes.
MR LATHAM
and doing it in public, speaking to a radio microphone
because you knew it was going to be broadcast, didn't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
one of the other things that you talked about during that
interview, or chat, with those journalists, was this "Maxine
said to me they wouldn't have gone off with someone they
don't know". It is not in that transcript, this is
when you were talking to the journalist. Do you remember
her saying that, they wouldn't have gone off with someone
they didn't know. They would have kicked up a right stink.
They would have screamed out if someone had tried to get
hold of them"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I remember saying that.
MR LATHAM
Jessica did scream out, didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
she did scream, yes.
MR LATHAM
that was to do with what you were doing with Holly, wasn't
it, that she started screaming?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I wasn't doing anything to Holly.
MR LATHAM
you chipped in at that point and said this "it has
got to be two people they know and trust. It seems they
just dropped off the face of the world. How can two girls
disappear in broad daylight? It beggars belief".
That is what you said?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is what I said, yes.
MR LATHAM
you have conceded that those two girls didn't know you,
did they?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, they knew of me.
MR LATHAM
but they didn't know you and trust you on that day did
they?
IAN HUNTLEY
they didn't know me, no.
MR LATHAM
what was it that you said to those two girls, which persuaded
them to go into your home?
IAN HUNTLEY
I have already told you, it was to help with the nosebleed.
MR LATHAM
you said something else, didn't you, which made your home
a safe place?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
you said something else which made your home a safe place
for those two girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
Maxine would have made your home a safe place, wouldn't
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had already told them that Maxine was away.
MR LATHAM
she would have made it a safe place though, wouldn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
it was shortly after the photograph of the Ford Fiesta
was taken, the one you know about of sitting sideways
on in the seat. that one. that you were talking to others,
to Fuller and Hoggarth, that's right, isn't it? It is
down there on the chronology. you were now, the two of
you, running this false story by agreement, weren't you,
and it became over and over again didn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry, I didn't hear the question.
MR LATHAM
from this point onwards, you were running jointly the
false story to everyone who asked?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew that if she was asked when you weren't there,
she would back it up, yes?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
she knew that when you were being asked if she wasn't
there, you would advance the false story, didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the two of you were giving each other approval in
a sense, tacit approval?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure what you mean.
MR LATHAM
support?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and I suggest that this alibi story, or false story, was
all cooked up within the first few hours - not on the
Wednesday evening before these media interviews on Thursday,
but within the first few hours?
IAN HUNTLEY
you suggest wrongly----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
sorry, somebody made a noise, say it again?
IAN HUNTLEY
it is wrong.
MR LATHAM
you discussed it on the Monday, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
I would like you to look, if you will, please, at tab
8 of the grey file, please, at the first telephone conversation
that Maxine Carr had with your mother on 18th October,
over the page, at page 2, five minutes 18 seconds in,
do you have that, two thirds of the way down the page
on page 2, 518?
IAN HUNTLEY
there are no numbers on here.
MR LATHAM
in the margin, 518?
IAN HUNTLEY
there's no numbers in the margin.
MR LATHAM
I hope Members of the Jury you have it. page 2. The jury
actually heard the tape played of this conversation, Mr
Huntley, on Friday last week. Five minutes 18 seconds,
do you see that? it is your mother speaking "you
know on the Sunday that you spoke to him? Maxine Yes.
did you discuss lying and alibis? Maxine No, not on the
Sunday. not on the Sunday, on the Monday. on the Monday
you did that? yes."?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I heard that on the tape.
MR LATHAM
that's what she said. You were not there to hear that
conversation but I ask you to comment was she right when
she said that when talking to your mother or not?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't remember any conversation about an alibi on the
Monday.
MR LATHAM
you see, I suggest there was, and I suggest it for this
reason from lunch time on Monday onwards, which is when
that policeman came into your home, took your first witness
statement, you were speaking about, "we did this"
and "we did that?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't give him the impression either way.
MR LATHAM
you were confident she was going to support you weren't
you, as a result what the two of you had agreed on the
telephone?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
the following day, the Friday, back to the chronology,
the bottom of page 12, a police officer came into your
home doing house-to-house inquiries, correct?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and we know that he had a form and needed to fill two
forms in, one for you and one for Maxine and they were
filled in while you were all in the room together, weren't
they?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, they was.
MR LATHAM
by then, this story was getting little adaptations wasn't
it? it was getting more sophisticated, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I believe it stayed pretty much the same.
MR LATHAM
essentially it was the same, of course. You said you spoke
to them and they had left; they had asked to see "Miss
Carr" and Miss Carr, Maxine, was up in the bath and
you told her later?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
do you remember one of the things that the form needed
"What is a formal description of what you were wearing
at the time?"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
because it is one of those things, a standard form with
lots of boxes on it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you gave a description of your T-shirt, or your top
that you were wearing on that Sunday?
IAN HUNTLEY
I gave a description of my yellow shirt.
MR LATHAM
and Maxine actually argued with you in front of the police
officer about what you were wearing on the Sunday night,
didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
I believe she did, yes.
MR LATHAM
and it culminated with her saying you were wearing a different
coloured top and - "I should know I do the bloody
washing" is what she said, didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something
like that.
MR LATHAM
this story was getting pretty sophisticated by then, wasn't
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, to me it just stayed the same.
MR LATHAM
but Mr Huntley, it sounds so much more believable, doesn't
it, if the two of you are actually arguing about the colour
of your top?
IAN HUNTLEY
what Maxine said there was not something discussed, it
was just something she said.
MR LATHAM
it was her little adaptation, was it to make it sound
better?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was not discussed.
MR LATHAM
she had no idea what top you had on on the Sunday did
she, or did you tell her?
IAN HUNTLEY
I may have told her, I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible)?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know if I did, I'm saying I may have done.
MR LATHAM
you may have done? this may be important, Mr Huntley.
Why should she have been the slightest bit interested
in what item of clothing you had on on the Sunday?
IAN HUNTLEY
in case the police asked for a description of what I was
wearing.
MR LATHAM
was she concerned about forensic evidence as well?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, if I had told her that, that would have been the reason
as to why I told her, in case the police asked for a description
of what I was wearing.
MR LATHAM
on Saturday there was the BBC Look east interview. That's
the first transcript we looked at yesterday morning. it
is in tab 1 of the grey file, and it is the section towards
the end which is paginated, and it is page 7. near the
end there is a section all in the same type face and it
is paginated the bottom right hand corner. have you got
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 7, 10th August BBC Look East. It was done for local
area news, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you start off, need not go through it in detail, with
the standard story about "brushing Sadie down, cleaning
her up before I let her in the house"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
of course you had on your story now already let her in
the house, you had put her in the downstairs cloakroom,
hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I had.
MR LATHAM
over the page, please, the top of the page "nothing
out of the ordinary in the behaviour of the two girls.
they seemed very very happy, pleasant and, like I say,
very chatty". That's how you wanted people to believe
they were, did you?
IAN HUNTLEY
that was how I wanted people to believe they had left,
yes.
MR LATHAM
it is about as different a picture as one could possibly
imagine, isn't it, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and then you go on in your next answer "it has been
very hard because with that in mind, all the press have
been hounding us trying to get pictures, statements, what
have you, and I just wish I had said or found more about
where they were going, what they were doing. In hindsight
you just wish you had said or done something more. it
is just very unfortunate that Maxine had not been down
here, because like she said, she would have spoken to
them and questioned them about things". She knew
what you were saying, didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
she knew?
MR LATHAM
what you were saying to the press, didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and then you go on to deal with talking, approaching Kev
and, as it were, giving him a hope didn't you? down at
the bottom of the page, we looked at that yesterday?
IAN HUNTLEY
I said to him "I hope everything turns out okay".
MR LATHAM
sorry I couldn't hear any of that?
IAN HUNTLEY
I said "I hope everything turns out okay".
MR LATHAM
that you actually went out, sought out Mr Wells who you
described as "Kev", and troubled to have a chat
with him and to give him hope?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, the main reason was to apologise to him, which is
what I did.
MR LATHAM
I'm sorry, Mr Huntley - over the page at page 9 you answer
at the top of the page "Kev didn't approach me, I
actually went and approached Kev"?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's correct, I did.
MR LATHAM
your decision to talk to him?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
at page 8 you told the journalist what you said to him,
the bottom of page 8?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I actually did say to Kev that I was sorry, I didn't
know it was his daughter.
MR LATHAM
that's not just what you said, you said "I hope everything
turns out okay and, you know, that the kids return safely
home" when you had put them dead in a ditch. You
had the strength and the will to be able to do that, didn't
you, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
it wasn't something I wanted to do.
MR LATHAM
but you chose to do it. he didn't come to you and get
you in a corner and, as it were, leave you with no option
but to say something you sought him out?
IAN HUNTLEY
"sorry", yes,
"Kev", yes.
MR LATHAM
how did you feel when you chose to say those things to
him, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
I felt terrible.
MR LATHAM
why did you say them then?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I wanted to apologise to him, which is what did.
I did apologise to him.
MR LATHAM
what do you mean, you apologised to him? You gave him
false hope. You made it even worse for him, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
probably, yes.
MR LATHAM
you did it quite deliberately, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, that wasn't deliberate.
MR LATHAM
you sought him out?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, and I told you why.
MR LATHAM
you did it in order to shift suspicion from you, didn't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I went over to him to apologise, I said to him I'm
sorry I didn't know that Holly was his daughter.
MR LATHAM
but it is what else you said?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, the other things I said as well.
MR LATHAM
what else you said was looking after Ian Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
the reason to go and see Kev was to apologise.
MR LATHAM
you didn't have to say that, and in saying it it was better
for you, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't see how it was better for me, no.
MR LATHAM
it is making you sound as though you are an innocent man,
doesn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, that was not the way I see it.
MR LATHAM
but it does, doesn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
by saying, "Sorry, I didn't know she was your daughter"?
MR LATHAM
"I hope everything
turns out okay", it makes you sound like a reasonable,
concerned innocent man?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that part does, yes.
MR LATHAM
you did that out of your own self-interest, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you were prepared to do it and to use one of the very
parents of the children who died----?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't use him. I didn't use him.
MR LATHAM
what were you doing?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was apologising.
MR LATHAM
so you keep saying. to another journalist at midday, Sherriff,
you said the police had done a magnificent job. what did
you mean by that?
IAN HUNTLEY
that they was doing everything that they could do.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
that they was doing everything that they could do.
MR LATHAM
they was doing everything that they could do?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were actually praising the police?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, they was doing, working hard and doing everything
they could do.
MR LATHAM
while you ran rings round them? well, you were, weren't
you? you were running rings round them at this stage weren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wouldn't say I was running rings round them, no.
MR LATHAM
you were deliberately keeping one or two or three steps
ahead of them the whole time, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know if I was or wasn't.
MR LATHAM
sending them off on false trails, weren't you? We have
been through this yesterday afternoon I don't want to
go through it again, the red Fiesta, the bin man. Sending
them all false trails?
IAN HUNTLEY
They weren't false trails.
MR LATHAM
we went through that, I'm not going through it again Mr
Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, we did.
MR LATHAM
of course, you in turn, it turns out, were lying to them
in a formal legal document, your witness statement?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were virtually laughing at police?
IAN HUNTLEY
No, I wasn't laughing at them.
MR LATHAM
you were laughing?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wasn't laughing at the police.
MR LATHAM
you were being totally cynical?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
that same afternoon, the two police officers, constables,
Hope and Long came to take what turned out to be individual
witness statements from you, didn't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
the house is described as very clean with the smell of
air freshener. is that right?
IAN HUNTLEY
it always smells of air freshener.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it always smells of air freshener.
MR LATHAM
you actually described both having taken the dog for the
walk that afternoon didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
Sunday afternoon?
MR LATHAM
yes. That was another embellishment, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, we did lie to the officers.
MR LATHAM
you were quite confident that when Maxine went off into
the dining room to make her statement, that she was going
to do a job for you, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
when she went into the?
MR LATHAM
dining room, to make her witness statement, it was going
to be a formal, legal document, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you know what a witness statement is, because you had
already made one, hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
with a formal declaration swearing to the truth of the
contents against signature. you knew she was going to
do that, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I had good idea she was going to do that, yes.
MR LATHAM
not a good idea, you knew she would do it for you, didn't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't know that she would actually do that on a legal
document, no.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
we was discussing it just before the police arrived. we
was expecting the police at (inaudible) point we was told
a police officer would be coming round.
MR LATHAM
what are you discussing?
IAN HUNTLEY
as to whether she would do that or not, whether she was
going to do that or not.
MR LATHAM
the die was cast you had been talking to the press - to
anybody who had talked to you about it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I know I, but----
MR LATHAM
you had given the story that involved the two of you?
IAN HUNTLEY
for her to put that on a legal document, a police document,
and saying to the press are two separate things, they
are two different things.
MR LATHAM
she appreciated that it was very serious, didn't she?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she appreciated it was serious to lie to the police,
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew when she went into the dining room she was
going to say it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I wasn't certain at all.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, if she had said something different you would
probably have been arrested within the next few minutes?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I wasn't sure what to say to the police officer in
the living room.
MR LATHAM
you were absolutely confident?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I wasn't.
MR LATHAM
that she would lie for you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I wasn't.
MR LATHAM
On the Wednesday, we are over at page 14 now, the then
senior officer in charge of the investigation, Mr Beck
made an announcement, didn't he, which you got to hear
about, a public announcement?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
an appeal to you, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
"I appeal to you again
to work with me to stop this getting any worse than it
is". Of course, it was far too late by then, wasn't
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
"you have a way out,
I have left you a personal message and a text message
on Jessica's mobile phone." listen to that we message,
it will tell you how to contact me so we can stop this
now. You have the opportunity to speak with me. This is
the time to use it". You heard that announcement,
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
you had taken, you say, Jessica's telephone out of her
pocket?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
just after you had killed her?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
there were perhaps two questions there. You did admit
yesterday that you did kill her?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was responsible for her death.
MR LATHAM
you killed her?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was responsible for her death.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, please do not mince words, you killed her,
you admitted that yesterday, didn't you? You put your
hands to her mouth, you suffocated her with your hands
and you held it there until she died. you admitted that
yesterday, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you killed her, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
thank you.
MR LATHAM
you told us that you then took the telephone out of her
pocket?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
tell us again what you did with it in the sequence of
events, please. Where does it fit in what you did with
it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was going over to Lodeside, I was going to go to the
office and I posted it into the skip at Lodeside.
MR LATHAM
when you were on your way to get the petrol can?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you actually took an interest in the message which Superintendent
Beck told the world he had put on that mobile, didn't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
because in fact, of course, the message is not on the
mobile phone itself, is it? It is, as it were, in an electronic
box that only that mobile can collect. That's how messenging
works?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
when you go to your messaging service on your telephone,
what is happening is, because it is your telephone, it
is allowing that telephone to have access to the electronic
message box, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you actually took an interest in what was on that message,
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
why?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wanted to know what had been said on the telephone.
MR LATHAM
this is the one step ahead principle again, isn't it?
why else could you possibly want to know what Mr Beck
had left on the abductor's-, on the phone the abductor
had got?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wanted to know what was on the phone.
MR LATHAM
yes, but why?
IAN HUNTLEY
I wanted to know what he was saying.
MR LATHAM
but why did you want to know what he was saying, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure. I just wanted to know.
MR LATHAM
I am suggesting the reason you wanted to stay one step
ahead of the game. You thought there might be something
in that message which you would need to deal with, didn't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure. I know I wanted to know what was on the
telephone.
MR LATHAM
that it might reveal something to you about the knowledge
of the police and how close they were getting to you.
that's what you were worried about, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I did want to know the police activity, yes.
MR LATHAM
that's what I put to you about four minutes ago, Mr Huntley,
the principle of trying to stay one step ahead by finding
out what the police know, isn't it? That's why you wanted
to find out what was in that message box, didn't you.
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
probably, yes.
MR LATHAM
probably yes? you were interviewed by BBC Midlands after
Mr Beck's appeal. It is page 11 of the transcripts in
the section we have been looking at. We are now on the
14th August. This is Wednesday, so it is ten days after
the killings, isn't it, or the killing and the accident?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
have you found page 11?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
down at the bottom of the page you are describing them
as seeming very chatty "They walked off chatting
away, they seemed happy. I didn't see anybody else around
at the time and they certainly didn't seem to have any
concerns about anything". That's the standard mantra
by now, isn't it, to anyone you speak to, that is the
sentence that describes what happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
over the page, your second response on the page "is
has been very, very stressful. I have seen like when I
was out Sunday night searching, morale was high. We all
just thought it was a prank you know". What is all
this about?
IAN HUNTLEY
by prank?
MR LATHAM
no, "When I was out Sunday night searching, morale
was high, we all just thought it was a prank, you know".
What is all this about?
IAN HUNTLEY
the prank was by them staying out at a friends house or
something.
MR LATHAM
what are you doing talking about "We all thought
it was a prank...". You didn't think it was a prank,
did you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I know.
MR LATHAM
this is another convincing lie, isn't it, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was saying there what the thoughts were on that night
and I included myself in those thoughts.
MR LATHAM
you are including yourself?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I have just said.
MR LATHAM
"morale has gone down
and down and down and the atmosphere you could really
cut with a knife". That was one thing which was absolutely
truthful, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you could physically see it, and the atmosphere you could
really cut with a knife. it was horrible, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
the atmosphere in Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
it was desperate, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and yet you were able to go on lying, not just telling
the story, but giving people hope, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
look at what you said next "I wouldn't like to say
what the people are thinking, I mean, whilst there is
no news, there is always a glimmer of hope and I think
that's what we are all clinging on to. That's all we have
got that we can cling on to." You were capable of
saying that to camera in the context of the feelings and
the emotions in Soham by that Wednesday, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
it was cold, wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
it was - what, sorry?
MR LATHAM
It was cold, wasn't it, what you were doing, it was totally
cynical, wasn't it, Mr Huntley ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, it was.
MR LATHAM
the truth of the matter is, Mr Huntley, that you can tell
lies to anyone if it suits your purpose, can't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I did tell lies in those two weeks, yes, I have admitted
to that.
MR LATHAM
you can do it, can't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I did it, yes.
MR LATHAM
on the Thursday it was more of the same, wasn't it, page
14. interviewed by Jeremy Thompson of Sky, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
a short little clip, but you see - the second ring binder
- Jeremy Thompson says, "safe and well", referring
to the children, page 14 have you got it? the second hole
punch. "safe and well?" "Yes, yes, absolutely"
is what you said, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
over the page it is more of the same, isn't it? "it
is a mystery", says Mr Thompson. "absolutely,
yes yes, absolutely, I mean, everybody round here - and
I have been speaking to a lot of people - what they are
saying is, you know, while there is no news there is still
that glimmer of hope and that's basically what we are
all hanging on to". Even by Thursday you were doing
it, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
I need not ask you about your conversation with Chief
Inspector Hebb and Inspector Causer about accessing the
message box on the telephone because you now accept that
you wanted to do that and you were enquiring, weren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
after the village meeting ITN had an interview with you
- the evening interview, do you remember - at your home.
There had been a private meeting, hadn't there, for the
residents of Soham at the college from which the press
were excluded. do you remember that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I do.
MR LATHAM
you then saw fit to give ITN your views on that meeting,
didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
from experience they don't go away until you do give them
what they want. I was forced into all these interviews.
I didn't want to give these interviews.
MR LATHAM
once you gave them you didn't just recite what you had
seen, you went on to give everybody hope, didn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
because in that interview - your first answer - you said
the meeting was very informative, there was a lot of frustration
aimed towards the police basically because they had got
nowhere else to aim it at. You were actually at a meeting
listening to the concerns of the population about the
progress of the police inquiry?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't actually stay in the meeting that long.
MR LATHAM
but you were there?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
bottom of the page, you were defending the police, weren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
"I'm sure we all understand
the reasons they can't answer those kind of questions,
but it is very frustrating knowing we have that people
that way inclined amongst us, and us not knowing who they
are"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were - back to the end of the interview - talking
about a stranger and a motor car and somebody "just
passing through", weren't you ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
this is another little line, as it were?
IAN HUNTLEY
another little?
MR LATHAM
Line, another little thought, another little distraction?
IAN HUNTLEY
what?
MR LATHAM
suggesting, inferring, implying it is a stranger that
came through Soham with a motor car that might be responsible?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
We are back to the red Fiesta again aren't we?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, that was true.
MR LATHAM
we went through it yesterday. The reason you mentioned
it was in the context of the police search for the girls,
isn't it ?
IAN HUNTLEY
that was why it was mentioned, yes.
MR LATHAM
Mr Huntley, that takes us back to where I started yesterday
morning, the morning interview by GMTV on the Friday,
wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I can't really remember where you started.
MR LATHAM
well, that's where I started yesterday. Which is yet more
of the same, isn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
up to the moment when you are arrested you continued to
be capable of telling lies, of expressing bogus concern.
That is right, isn't it? it is wholly bogus concern, isn't
it ?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I was concerned about what had happened.
MR LATHAM
You were concerned for yourself?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I was concerned about what had happened.
MR LATHAM
it is bogus concern, the "hope" and all that
stuff?
IAN HUNTLEY
that, yes.
MR LATHAM
you were peddling that nonsense right the way up until
you were arrested, weren't you, Mr Huntley? it was nonsense,
wasn't it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you were capable of doing that for the best part of
a fortnight, weren't you ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
An entirely different topic. you described yesterday afternoon,
when I was asking you about taking the bodies down to
the car and putting them into the boot of the car - you
remember that? shutting the boot? I just want to understand
the sequence of events. you closed the boot; did you lock
the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
the boot its self-locking, I think.
MR LATHAM
you locked it, I think you said, when you first had taken
the girls into the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes it should be, yes.
MR LATHAM
you mentioned getting the keys from the table when you
went out to open the boot, to put the bodies in the boot,
didn't you, yesterday afternoon?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
the bodies go in the boot, you shut the boot and the parcel
shelf hides the two bodies?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you go next?
IAN HUNTLEY
I went back into the house.
MR LATHAM
what did you do in the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
emptied the bath and the sink and cleaned up the sink.
MR LATHAM
I want to take it in stages; you pulled the plug out of
the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
first of all I went to the kitchen to get cleaning materials.
MR LATHAM
what did you need to clean?
IAN HUNTLEY
the sick off the carpet.
MR LATHAM
and you clean up the sick off the carpet?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that was it.
MR LATHAM
you pulled the plug on the bath and mentioned the basin?
IAN HUNTLEY
the sink.
MR LATHAM
what was the sink?
IAN HUNTLEY
the sink had some water in it.
MR LATHAM
from where you had been dunking the tissues?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
was there any blood in the sink?
IAN HUNTLEY
I think there was a bit, yes.
MR LATHAM
you could rinse that out just by turning the tap, couldn't
you ?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
what was the cloth used for?
IAN HUNTLEY
to clean up the sink- sick.
MR LATHAM
what sort of cloth was that?
IAN HUNTLEY
what sort of cloth?
MR LATHAM
What sort of cloth was it you used to clean up the sick?
IAN HUNTLEY
it would have been like a floor cloth.
MR LATHAM
so you have had the clean-up upstairs. then what did you
do?
IAN HUNTLEY
put the materials away. threw the cloth into the bin.
MR LATHAM
threw the cloth into?
IAN HUNTLEY
the bin.
MR LATHAM
the bin in the kitchen?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
then you left the house?
IAN HUNTLEY
I changed my shoes first.
MR LATHAM
changed your shoes? why did you change your shoes?
IAN HUNTLEY
because I had my Brasher boots on.
MR LATHAM
those walking boots?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you changed into?
IAN HUNTLEY
the trainers.
MR LATHAM
why did you change from walking boots into trainers when
in fact you were planning on going outside?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't really wear my Brasher's outside that often, only
when I'm going on, in fact I don't wear them very often
at all.
MR LATHAM
you are still wearing the yellow shirt, are you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
work trousers?
IAN HUNTLEY
No, I think I had my beige jeans on.
MR LATHAM
jeans on?
IAN HUNTLEY
jeans on.
MR LATHAM
the trainers?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you have any coat or anything like that?
IAN HUNTLEY
No.
MR LATHAM
you went across to the school----?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
----and you got the petrol can and the two bin bags?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and some gloves?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
because you didn't want anything from your hands to get
on to what?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
what did you need the gloves for?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not really sure, I just took them.
MR LATHAM
gloves are there to protect hands, aren't they?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
from something. what was it you envisaged needed protecting?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure, it was just something I took.
MR LATHAM
You were later to put them on, weren't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I did put them on.
MR LATHAM
back to the house with the petrol can. I take it you had
the car keys in your pocket by this stage?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
unlocked the passenger door and in goes the can and two
bin bags?
IAN HUNTLEY
I'm not sure if it was the driver's or passenger's.
MR LATHAM
you unlocked the door and you have now got all you need?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you set off?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
when you got out of car to dump the bodies, that's when
you put the gloves on, I take it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't remember at which stage I put the gloves on.
MR LATHAM
did you put the gloves on?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I put the gloves on.
MR LATHAM
you cut the clothes off the bodies on the bank, you take
the bin bags off your feet?
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
what did you do with the clothes?
IAN HUNTLEY
I put the clothing into the bin bags.
MR LATHAM
what, both bags or one?
IAN HUNTLEY
I put one bag inside the other and put the clothing into
it.
MR LATHAM
it is a double thickness bag, clothes go in?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you just leave it loose, or did you knot it?
IAN HUNTLEY
I think I just left them loose.
MR LATHAM
did you know the bin bag was knotted when it was found?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I put them into a different bin bag at the college.
MR LATHAM
empty petrol can in the car with the bin bag. What has
happened to the gloves?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know, didn't even remember about the gloves until
you mentioned them yesterday.
MR LATHAM
what happened now that I have reminded you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I must have left them there.
MR LATHAM
left them?
IAN HUNTLEY
I must have left them there, yes.
MR LATHAM
they weren't found there, just tiny pieces of glove that
were found there?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know then. Like I say, I didn't even remember
the gloves until you said about them yesterday.
MR LATHAM
I am right, though, that you were wearing gloves, weren't
you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I still can't recall wearing them but I'm not saying that
I wasn't. I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
we have been through it you said you got them when you
got the petrol?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would have done - if I was wearing gloves - that's where
I would have got them from.
MR LATHAM
you drive back to Soham, stopping off on the way to fill
the car up and the petrol can up?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
just describe what you did from driving into Soham, please.
where did the car go?
IAN HUNTLEY
I parked the car at the front of my house.
MR LATHAM
and?
IAN HUNTLEY
at that point I went over to the college.
MR LATHAM
carry on, and be careful?
IAN HUNTLEY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
be careful. I'm listening. "over to the college"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I went into the college, Lodeside office, and emptied
the clothing into another black bag.
MR LATHAM
another black bag?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
why did you do that?
IAN HUNTLEY
because they had been down the Drove. I don't really know.
It was just something I did.
MR LATHAM
you emptied the clothing into yet another bin bag. Where
did you get that bin bag from?
IAN HUNTLEY
that was in Lodeside office.
MR LATHAM
in the office?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
which left you with two bin bags which you used as outer
footwear?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, they went into Lodeside skip.
MR LATHAM
with the telephone?
IAN HUNTLEY
the telephone had gone in earlier, yes.
MR LATHAM
carry on?
IAN HUNTLEY
I collected the playground gate keys and the hangar keys.
There was a bottle, what we used to put detergent in.
MR LATHAM
you filled that with----?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you went over to the hangar?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you thought about the fire alarm going off if you
had a fire in the hangar?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
so you pulled the bin outside?
IAN HUNTLEY
into the doorway.
MR LATHAM
into the doorway and - carry on - you had your fire?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you put the fire out - with water?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
you got another clean bin bag?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it was the bin bag I had actually taken out of the
yellow bin in the first place. There was a black bin bag
in it.
MR LATHAM
you had chosen a bin that didn't have anything in it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and taken a clean bin liner out?
IAN HUNTLEY
and placed ----
MR LATHAM
had your fire and put this clean bin liner back?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. Transcript edited by Sky News (Mr Latham then pressed
Huntley on what he had put in the bins at the college
hangar. Huntley denied he had put anything in except the
things he was burning to destroy potential forensic evidence?
IAN HUNTLEY
I say again, those are not my cloths; I didn't put those
cloths in the bin.
MR LATHAM
they won't fit your description, will they?
IAN HUNTLEY
I have given you an accurate description of what happened.
those clothes are not my cloths.
MR LATHAM
so you say. It is an accurate description, I hope I make
it clear I do not accept what you are saying Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
you have made it clear.
MR LATHAM
yes. thank you.
MR LATHAM
I hope you understand, I do not accept this did not happen
on the Sunday night, this dustbin business?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
are you going tell us what those two dusters and that
dish cloth is all about?
IAN HUNTLEY
I can't tell you what they are doing there, they are not
mine, I have not used any dusters. As I say they look
like the ones my cleaners would use.
MR LATHAM
Holly wasn't an accident?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, she was.
MR LATHAM
Jessica was killed quite deliberately by you
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
and ever since that Sunday night you have lied to everyone,
hadn't you?
IAN HUNTLEY
I have told lies, yes.
MR LATHAM
you lied during the fortnight?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and then off to Rampton you went and after you came out
you were scrabbling around looking for a defence, weren't
you, Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
and you had invented a defence by the time you
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
A defence that would fit the then known facts?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
you have carried on lying right up until now haven't you,
Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's your opinion to which you are entitled. that's
not true.
MR LATHAM
you are certainly capable of telling lies, aren't you
Mr Huntley?
IAN HUNTLEY
I have done, yes.
MR LATHAM
over and over again?
MR COWARD
my Lord I have a significant number of questions for re-examination,
and my client would like a break?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, please.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
very well, 10 minutes. Hearing adjourned - will resume
shortly Re-examined by
MR COWARD
.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, you have already told the Members of the Jury
that there was a time shortly, minutes, seconds into the
girls deaths when you should have done something about
it straight away?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
we know you didn't do it, you told us you didn't do it.
Having not done something about it, how did you see your
position? what were you doing over the next fortnight,
as you saw it? HUNTLEY: I just know I had gone beyond
the point of return and nothing I could do could change
what had happened. I couldn't change my decision to then
call the police.
MR COWARD
my learned friend, Mr Latham, has gone through day by
day what you were saying to various people and how the
account that you were giving became fuller, and further
details were brought in. Was there any moment between
the 4th August, and you going with the police when, as
you thought, there was an opportunity to turn back?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, none.
MR COWARD
did you want to be interviewed on the radio? whether it
be TV or radio.
MR COWARD
did you try not to give interviews?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes. we had caretakers making excuses for us.
MR COWARD
did you try hard not to give interviews?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
how persistent were the people who wanted you to give
interviews?
IAN HUNTLEY
very. On one occasion with a photographer, I nearly had
to manhandle him to get him out of my house.
MR COWARD
what in the end made you decide, I will do the radio first,
because I think it was the first in time,
IAN HUNTLEY
because I was only going out local and my picture had
already been, they had secretly filmed me getting out
of my car, I believe, going into my house and I was sat
down at lunch time and I seen that on the television.
MR COWARD
what made you give the first television interview?
IAN HUNTLEY
I spoke to them and I asked for a guarantee that I gave
this interview, they would circulate it, and we would
be left alone. that guarantee was given to us; that if
I gave the interview, it would be circulated and we would
be left alone and that was the reason I gave that interview.
MR COWARD
you told the Members of the Jury that you were initially
in Rampton, you were then transferred to Woodhill, and
eventually finished up in Belmarsh, and that it was after
your suicide attempt at Woodhill that memories started
to come back?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did you like what the memories were telling you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
IAN HUNTLEY
I felt very ill. I lost a lot of weight, Gary (Huntley's
Solicitor) was coming down on a regular basis and I couldn't
get the words out to him. I think it took me about a couple
of weeks to actually be able to get myself to tell him
and then when I was telling him I was sick.
MR COWARD
could you try to explain, take your time over it, it may
be important, why it was that you couldn't get the words
out?
IAN HUNTLEY
because of what I had remembered.
MR COWARD
what about what you had remembered that made it difficult
to get the words out?
MR COWARD
were there any particular features of the whole thing?
IAN HUNTLEY
pretty much the whole thing.
MR COWARD
and when you eventually were able to speak about it, were
you able to tell the whole story at that time?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
was that because you were holding some of it back deliberately?
IAN HUNTLEY
parts of it, yes.
MR COWARD
which bits were you holding back deliberately when you
began to speak about it?
IAN HUNTLEY
what I had done down there?
MR COWARD
what you had done to the girls down there?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
your attention was drawn to a telephone call between you
and Maxine at 6.24 on the evening of the 4th August. you
said that you were on the doorstep when you spoke to Maxine
at 6.24?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
what type of telephone were you using for that call?
IAN HUNTLEY
a mobile phone.
MR COWARD
so there is no difficulty about being on the doorstep?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, there weren't. The mobile phone is always clipped
to my belt because I'm always on call 24 hours a day.
MR COWARD
you were asked about nose bleeds and I would like to ask
you further questions about it. when did you first learn
that Maxine - I beg your pardon - that Holly had a history
of nose bleeds?
IAN HUNTLEY
after I had spoken to one of my defence, I'm not sure
which one it was, I think after I had spoken to my away,
I believe, and looked into the matter and we received
a statement sometime later saying that Holly did actually
have a history of nose bleeds.
MR COWARD
that's the statement from Mrs Wells that the Jury know
about. Had Maxine ever said anything to you before you
went with the police to suggest that Holly had a history
of nosebleeds?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, she hadn't.
MR COWARD
between the time you went with the police and now, have
you ever had an opportunity face to face to talk to Maxine?
IAN HUNTLEY
No not at all.
MR COWARD
in any communication in writing between you and Maxine,
did she ever tell you that she knew that Holly suffered
from nosebleeds?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, we didn't discuss the case at all, all our letters,
phone calls, visits, are censored. Sorry, monitored.
MR COWARD
to the best of your knowledge and belief, Mr Huntley,
who was the first person who ever mentioned Holly having
nosebleeds?
IAN HUNTLEY
that would be me.
MR COWARD
Was it inappropriate for the girls to come into your house.
what was your plan at the time the girls came into your
house?
IAN HUNTLEY
just to assist Holly with the nosebleed.
MR COWARD
and when the nosebleed was sorted?
IAN HUNTLEY
they would have left.
MR COWARD
do you consider now anything inappropriate in that, if
that's what happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I don't.
MR COWARD
did you, at the time, think that was inappropriate, if
that is what had happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
the suggestion is that you were tempted by these girls.
were you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
at a later stage of the cross-examination you were asked,
it was put to you as a suggestion "That's where it
all happened, isn't it?", referring to the main bedroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, that was suggested.
MR COWARD
did anything happen in the main bedroom?
IAN HUNTLEY
only Holly sat on the corner of the bed, one drop of blood
went onto the sheet. Transcript edited by Sky News
MR COWARD
you said to my learned friend, one - that is obviously
Holly - died as a result of my failure to act?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
you stand by that, do you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
another died as the result of my action or actions. you
stand by that?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I do.
MR COWARD
can I turn to the bathroom now? Transcript edited by Sky
News
MR COWARD
is there a lock on the bathroom door?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
is there any sort of bolt or anything on the bathroom
door?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, there is nothing on the bathroom door.
MR COWARD
did you do anything to try to prevent Jessica from escaping?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
had you, in fact, locked the front door, the main door
into the house
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
you said "When Jessica was screaming...", you
said "here", meaning in court; "it is very
rational. Then, it wasn't."?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
could you try to expand on that by what the difference
is between talking about it now and being there then.
IAN HUNTLEY
hindsight. Standing here or anywhere when you are not
in a particular situation and somebody puts something
to you, it is very easy to know what to do - which it
is. actually in that sufficient things aren't (inaudible).
MR COWARD
you are clear of the words Jessica was screaming at you?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, I am.
MR COWARD
"you pushed her. You
pushed her!"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
Was Jessica was screaming because you had drowned Holly.
Is that true?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, it's not.
MR COWARD
it was put to you that is how she died, isn't it, drowned
in the bath?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you yourself know of what cause Holly died?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
it was put to you she, Jessica, would be fighting for
her very life. did you have a single injury on you?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
did you in all the time thereafter that you were
IAN HUNTLEY
didn't see any injuries on her, no.
MR COWARD
at no stage?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
you described how you took the girls downstairs, how you
opened the boot of the car and how you put them in the
car and that you had to bend the legs slightly to get
them in. it was put to you that you were behaving ruthlessly,
cold and ruthlessly, what was your state? what was going
on in your head, can you try and describe it?
IAN HUNTLEY
all, all I knew at that time was I had to get the girls
out of the house.
MR COWARD
And was all that you were doing to achieve that object?
IAN HUNTLEY
I just felt numb.
MR COWARD
numb? how far ahead were you thinking at that stage?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was trying to think as I was going.
MR COWARD
it was suggested to you that this was conducted like a
military operation. did it feel like that to you at the
time?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what did it feel like?
IAN HUNTLEY
just felt - the whole thing just felt horrible.
MR COWARD
when Woman Police Constable Burton came with her dog,
you went with her around the college, and it was suggested
to you that you were behaving calmly and normally when
you were going with her. you said, "that was not
how I felt"?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
outwardly, how were you trying to look?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was trying to look calm.
MR COWARD
inwardly, what was going on?
IAN HUNTLEY
I was in turmoil, my hands were sweating and shaking.
MR COWARD
you have told the jury that you did not know from which
direction the girls came?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
you first were aware of them near to you, near the car?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
it is a while since we went to the college. If you were
at the sports centre and you want to go over the bridge
over the Lode, College Road, are there alternative routes
that you can take from the reception at the sports centre
to get to the bridge? one route is obviously the path
----.
IAN HUNTLEY
Yes, there are two.
MR COWARD
what is the other route?
IAN HUNTLEY
as they come out of the sports centre, they can turn right
down the public footpath onto the roadway and walk down
the side of Lode River, on to the bridge.
MR COWARD
so instead of going on the diagonal across to number 5,
turn right there is a footpath that takes you to a another
footpath along the river?
IAN HUNTLEY
It is another roadway that runs from the sport centre
to Lode Bridge. Transcript edited by Sky News
MR COWARD
did you go out of your house to chat the girls up?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
did you go up College Road to talk to the girls?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
did you get in your car and go up to chat them up?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
what was your first memory of seeing them?
IAN HUNTLEY
when they were stood at the- as I was looking at it, the
left-hand side of my car, the front.
MR COWARD
it was suggested to you that you watched them go up College
Road and then decided you were going to do
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
when the police officers came to the house on 5th August,
there was some washing on the line?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't know if there was washing on the line or not.
MR COWARD
that's the evidence we have heard. Maxine had obviously
been away for some days by that stage. did you put the
washing on the line?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
do you have a washing machine?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes, we do.
MR COWARD
do you know how to?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
just remind us where you put the mobile telephone that
you took from Jessica?
IAN HUNTLEY
in the skip at Lodeside, it was just the closest place
to hand out of my house.
MR COWARD
did it occur to you at any stage after that to retrieve
it, take it somewhere where it would not be found?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
you see, we know you went to your grandma's, didn't you,
on the 7th?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
did it occur to you to take the mobile phone with you
and throw it in a ditch somewhere?
MR COWARD
the skip had already been emptied?
IAN HUNTLEY
it would have been, yes.
MR COWARD
had you held on to the phone? You had opportunities, did
you, to get rid of it somewhere safer?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would have done, yes.
MR COWARD
when the police broke in to your motor car they opened
the boot and in the boot - we have seen the photograph
- was the carpet there has been a lot of questioning about,
a pair of scissors and a red petrol can. was that the
red petrol can that normally lived in the office?
MR COWARD
when had it been put into the boot of your car?
IAN HUNTLEY
the last time?
MR COWARD
the last time?
IAN HUNTLEY
Tuesday morning.
MR COWARD
and the purpose of putting it in?
IAN HUNTLEY
there was a smell of petrol, my car, and I weren't sure
whether I had a petrol leak of not. I had a car previously
that did have a petrol leak - it smelled like that.
MR COWARD
you borrowed the can for the trip to Grimsby to pick up
Maxine?
MR COWARD
when you got back to (inaudible) what did you do with
the can?
IAN HUNTLEY
it went into the boot of my car.
MR COWARD
did it occur to you at all that was the red can you had
taken to the Drove that you used to try to destroy the
evidence by burning the bodies?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I just I forgot it was, I forgot all about it.
MR COWARD
It normally lived in the office, did it?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
and the scissors that were in the boot of the car were
they the ones used to cut the girls' clothing off?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
why were they still in the boot when the car was broken
into by the police?
IAN HUNTLEY
I didn't think to take them out.
MR COWARD
why did you go to Lakenheath on 7th August?
IAN HUNTLEY
to get away from the police and the press. I tried to
get Maxine to come with me but she said she wouldn't be
kicked out of the house by the media.
MR COWARD
did you manage to get away from the press or did they
follow you there?
MR COWARD
were you able to have a chat with your gran?
IAN HUNTLEY
when I got there, my nana was asking a lot of questions
about Soham and what was going on and then she put the
news on, and I thought this just isn't good idea I'm not
going to get no peace here.
MR COWARD
so (inaudible)?
IAN HUNTLEY
that's right, I had to return home.
MR COWARD
roughly how long did you stay at your gran's?
IAN HUNTLEY
I arrived there about 9 o'clock, maybe sometime just before
and the news was on when I left, the news had just finished
when I left.
MR COWARD
from the moment you arrived at your nan's, did you ever
leave only to come back to Soham?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
when you were asked about putting forward the false story,
you and Maxine, were you suggesting that maybe your reasons
and her reasons were not practical?
IAN HUNTLEY
No, they weren't.
MR COWARD
can you spell out what your reason was you needed Maxine
to say she was at the house the time the girls came?
IAN HUNTLEY
firstly, I wasn't keen on Maxine giving me the alibi.
I didn't want Maxine tied up in this at all, my reasons
was because of what happened.
MR COWARD
stop there a minute. your reasons were because of what
had happened?
IAN HUNTLEY
yes.
MR COWARD
because of what you knew had happened, how in your mind
could Maxine help?
IAN HUNTLEY
by saying she was in Soham at that time.
MR COWARD
did you ever tell Maxine that that was your reason why
you wanted her to lie?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
her reasons, as you understood it, were?
IAN HUNTLEY
to protect me from somebody ringing up from Grimsby and
telling the police about the allegation of rape
MR COWARD
I asked you earlier if you knew what actually caused Holly
to die and you said no, you didn't. do you actually know
what caused Jessica to die?
IAN HUNTLEY
I would assume it was my actions.
MR COWARD
do you know what actions it was of yours that caused Jessica
to die?
IAN HUNTLEY
probably putting my hand over her mouth.
MR COWARD
do you have any memory of doing anything else, apart from
putting a hand over her mouth, which may have caused or
contributed to her death?
IAN HUNTLEY
no, I don't recall what I did with my other hand
MR COWARD
you don't recall what you did with the other hand?
IAN HUNTLEY
no.
MR COWARD
my Lord, I have no further re-examination.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
just before we leave, Mr Coward, nobody has asked about
Sadie while those events were going on in the bathroom
upstairs. is there any reason for me to ask or do you
want to ask? .
MR COWARD
my Lord, I thought I had but it was a long time ago.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
She was, as I understand it, in the downstairs cloakroom,
while there is screaming, possibly a bang and possibly
a splash upstairs. nobody has asked what the reaction
of the dog was if that was going on?
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, you have heard my Lord. what memory, if any,
do you have of Sadie's reaction, the way dogs can react,
to any events inside number 5?
IAN HUNTLEY
I don't recall hearing anything from Sadie.
MR COWARD
just to clarify the matter, when you first saw the girls
where was Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
Sadie was on the doorstep with me.
MR COWARD
when you were in the bathroom with the girls, where was
Sadie?
IAN HUNTLEY
she was closed in the downstairs toilet, she wasn't locked
in because there is no lock on the door.
MR COWARD
when did Sadie come out of the downstairs toilet?
IAN HUNTLEY
that would have been when I took her for a walk later
on that evening.
MR COWARD
after you had come back from the Drove?
IAN HUNTLEY
it would have been about 11 o'clock time.
MR COWARD
thank you, Mr Huntley. (The witness withdrew) agreed,
we understand that is the case on behalf of Mr Huntley.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you do not want to read those now?
MR COWARD
it is more easily dealt with at a later stage.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much. Mr Hubbard, if you had 20 minutes
now might that help?
MR HUBBARD
my Lord, I think it is the view of my learned friend Mr
Latham as well as ours that it would be useful to have
a brief discussion with your Lordship about the law.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
very well then.
MR HUBBARD
even if that goes after the adjournment.
MR HUBBARD
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
so the good news is you have a longer lunch but I haven't.
two o'clock, please.
Hearing adjourned - will resume after lunch
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