Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman - Documents 03/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Wednesday, 03 December 2003 SKY News Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear. Page 01 02 Ian Huntley, cross-examination by Mr Latham, continued. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, when we broke yesterday we were looking at Thursday, 8th August and I think you will find your chronology there is open at page 12, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM this is the day when you were persuaded by several journalists to start talking, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM indeed, the first meeting with the journalists took place in your home at around lunch time, midday, 12.15 or thereabouts? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that was quite a long meeting in your home when a group of journalists talked to both you and Maxine together, correct? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM I will go through the detail if you ask me, but it was quite plain, wasn't it, that the two of you were putting forward the Sunday evening story? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM by story, I mean the lying account of Maxine being in Soham? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM that was a story which was embellished by little details about what had been going on during the course of the Sunday evening, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM now, that conversation couldn't have happened without your having had prior discussions with Maxine. That must be right, mustn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the truth of the matter is that the two of you had sorted out this joint story before midday on the Thursday? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and before you could have launched yourself on your account with any confidence, you would have needed to know in advance that she was going to back you up, wouldn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because it would have been a total disaster if you had started the talk to journalists on the basis, Maxine was here with me on the Sunday night...., and she had said in front of witnesses who had their notebooks open - "What are you talking about, I wasn't here, I was in Grimsby...." that would have been disaster, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM therefore when you talked to those journalists, you were confident that if you gave that account, she would back you up.... must have been? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and the reason you were confident is that you had agreed with her that that is what your story was going to be? IAN HUNTLEY no, we hadn't firmly agreed that was actually----. MR LATHAM do you want me to go back through the loop? IAN HUNTLEY no, we had not firmly decided. We were both in the same room when those interviews took place. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, you have been listening to what I have been asking you in the last two or three minutes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it would have been a total disaster if you had said to these journalists "We were both in the house on the Sunday night", and she had said anything to indicate that that was right, because they were sitting there poised with their journalists' notebooks and the like, weren't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and that would have let the cat out of the bag to the wide world, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM they would have gone rushing out of the house, saying, here we have a man who is giving an account about a crucial meeting with these girls, and he is suggesting that part of that account involves his partner, and his partner has just said it is a lie? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you couldn't risk that, could you? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM before that conversation with those journalists started you knew she would back you up, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I knew that if that's what I said then Maxine would back me up, yes. MR LATHAM and the reason you knew she would back you up is because you had agreed to tell the story, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, we hadn't agreed. we had discussed it and we had wrote it down. MR LATHAM all right, you had discussed it, but at the end of your discussions, did she say anything which led you to believe that when you opened your mouth in front of the journalists she was going to let you down? IAN HUNTLEY no, she didn't. MR LATHAM by the time that meeting with the journalists had finished, it ended up with a radio interview, didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY sorry, can you say that again? MR LATHAM by the end of that meeting with the journalists, which went on for quite a time, didn't it---- IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM ----you had the radio interview with Miss Moshiri, didn't you, the Radio One journalist? IAN HUNTLEY there was a radio interview at some point, yes. MR LATHAM and so the result of that was that by then you had had a run-through of the story hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you and Maxine had jointly told a lie, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM I mean, it was a series of lies, but the story was just a lie, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you lived in the same house with Maxine from that Thursday onwards, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM what did you say to Maxine once the journalists had left and you had your first private moment together? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember. MR LATHAM thank you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I can't remember. It is a long time ago. MR LATHAM that was very helpful? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember what I said, if anything. MR LATHAM you must have been very relieved? IAN HUNTLEY I really can't remember. MR LATHAM well, try? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, you were just about to set off on what became a series of interviews in which you looked the camera straight in the eye and the interviewer straight in the eye and told a pack of lies, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and that pack of lies included injecting false sentiment and emotion into the equation, didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, I was upset by what had happened. MR LATHAM what did you say you were? MR JUSTICE MOSES upset by what had happened. MR LATHAM that is as may be, Mr Huntley, but you were injecting a false type of upset, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY what I was saying was untrue but I was genuinely upset. MR LATHAM let's look at the radio interview. In the grey bundle, tab 1. It is after your witness statements, about six pages on and it starts "copy of a media interview, Ian Huntley, BBC Radio 1". tab 1. you may like to look at it, Members of the Jury. have you got it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM this is the interview that was broadcast on Radio 1, or parts of it, all right? the second hole on the page, the second ring binder hole, you are describing "...how the girls were giggly, you know, just they seemed fine, you know. I don't know, you can't really say." those are your words, aren't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes, they are. MR LATHAM then you were asked what direction they were walking away from you "Where do you think they were going?", you gave this answer "I don't know where they were going, but I mean they walked away from my house towards the bridge which runs over the Lode river towards the library"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM where did you get that from? IAN HUNTLEY because I assumed that they came from the direction of the Lodeside College. MR LATHAM yes, but just think about it. you have told us that when they came to your house, and you showed them into your house, you didn't know which direction they had come from? IAN HUNTLEY That's correct, I spoke to the neighbours and they said they had not seen them. MR LATHAM they didn't leave your house alive, they didn't walk anywhere else when they left your house, did they? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM we know that in fact, they had walked past your house and on up College Road. we know that now, don't we? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and the story you were giving to everybody was that, as they walked past your house and before they went on up College Road, you had this very short conversation with them. that was your story, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I assumed they came from the direction of Lodeside. MR LATHAM that was your story? IAN HUNTLEY that is what I said, yes. MR LATHAM which just happens to fit with what we now know was their initial route, doesn't it? IAN HUNTLEY it seems so, yes. MR LATHAM you saw them walk past your house and on up College Road didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM you were watching? IAN HUNTLEY no, I weren't watching. MR LATHAM let's now look at what you said. This is what I am talking about when I speak of false emotion, Mr Huntley. Do you see the question "okay, can I just ask you a few questions about how you feel?" You see that? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM about the fact that they are still missing. you know, they have been missing for four nights now. How do you feel about that?". Well, what can you say? "it is just dreadful you know. I just pray, as I'm sure everybody else does, that they are alive and well"? IAN HUNTLEY I know (inaudible). MR LATHAM what are you saying now? IAN HUNTLEY I am aware of the lies that I told. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY I am aware of the lies that I told. MR LATHAM yes, but it is not just a lie, it is a false sentiment, isn't it? "I just pray" - to what or to whom, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY it is what I said. MR LATHAM to what or to whom were you "just praying"? IAN HUNTLEY that's what I said to them. MR LATHAM to what or to whom were you "just praying"? IAN HUNTLEY it is just what I said to them. MR LATHAM to what or to whom were you praying? IAN HUNTLEY I knew they wasn't alive. MR LATHAM "morale is getting low around here but everybody in Soham is clinging on to a glimmer of hope that everything is fine." what is that about? IAN HUNTLEY that is what people in Soham were saying. MR LATHAM you were saying Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM devious, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY it is a lie, yes. MR LATHAM not just a lie, it is putting yourself forward as one of those "clinging on to a glimmer of hope"? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I know. MR LATHAM the bottom of the page "the people I have spoke to they are very down" - over the page - "and some people are holding out little hope. But you know, while there's no news there's always hope, and I think that's what everybody has got to cling on to". And all the time you know they are dead in the ditch, don't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you were quite capable of talking like that, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you are quite capable of lying to camera, aren't you Mr Huntley - or in this case, lying to microphone? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM you are quite capable of lying to microphone, aren't you, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I lied. MR LATHAM you are quite capable of making it sound the truth, aren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I'm telling you the truth up here. MR LATHAM Then you go on four lines down, "The environment round here is a very dangerous environment. I mean anything that happened (inaudible)." What are you talking about there? IAN HUNTLEY where is it, please? MR LATHAM four lines down. "the environment here is a very dangerous environment." What are you talking about? IAN HUNTLEY the landscape. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY the landscape, the geographical area. MR LATHAM what is this "dangerous environment" you are referring to in this interview? IAN HUNTLEY just the area around Soham. MR LATHAM dangerous in what sense? IAN HUNTLEY as in accidents. MR LATHAM what sort of accidents? IAN HUNTLEY the fields, woods, things like that. MR LATHAM fields? IAN HUNTLEY woods. MR LATHAM so you are implying they may have come to some harm as a result of nature? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM about eight lines down, you were asked what they were wearing when you saw them. your answer "the only thing I can remember, I mean I support the team and that's a Manchester United top you know, it is very distinctive. as for the other items of clothing, I really couldn't tell you. I don't know". That's a clever lie, isn't it Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY it is a lie, yes. MR LATHAM it is a clever one, because in fact you knew what they were wearing right down to their underwear because you cut it all off, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I could have been given a description of their trousers, yes. MR LATHAM you could have given a description of their trousers, you knew perfectly well what their trousers were like? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were weaving a clever, false story here weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I was telling lies, yes. MR LATHAM and doing it in public, speaking to a radio microphone because you knew it was going to be broadcast, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did. MR LATHAM one of the other things that you talked about during that interview, or chat, with those journalists, was this "Maxine said to me they wouldn't have gone off with someone they don't know". It is not in that transcript, this is when you were talking to the journalist. Do you remember her saying that, they wouldn't have gone off with someone they didn't know. They would have kicked up a right stink. They would have screamed out if someone had tried to get hold of them"? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I remember saying that. MR LATHAM Jessica did scream out, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY she did scream, yes. MR LATHAM that was to do with what you were doing with Holly, wasn't it, that she started screaming? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't doing anything to Holly. MR LATHAM you chipped in at that point and said this "it has got to be two people they know and trust. It seems they just dropped off the face of the world. How can two girls disappear in broad daylight? It beggars belief". That is what you said? IAN HUNTLEY it is what I said, yes. MR LATHAM you have conceded that those two girls didn't know you, did they? IAN HUNTLEY no, they knew of me. MR LATHAM but they didn't know you and trust you on that day did they? IAN HUNTLEY they didn't know me, no. MR LATHAM what was it that you said to those two girls, which persuaded them to go into your home? IAN HUNTLEY I have already told you, it was to help with the nosebleed. MR LATHAM you said something else, didn't you, which made your home a safe place? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM you said something else which made your home a safe place for those two girls? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't. MR LATHAM Maxine would have made your home a safe place, wouldn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I had already told them that Maxine was away. MR LATHAM she would have made it a safe place though, wouldn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it was shortly after the photograph of the Ford Fiesta was taken, the one you know about of sitting sideways on in the seat. that one. that you were talking to others, to Fuller and Hoggarth, that's right, isn't it? It is down there on the chronology. you were now, the two of you, running this false story by agreement, weren't you, and it became over and over again didn't it? IAN HUNTLEY sorry, I didn't hear the question. MR LATHAM from this point onwards, you were running jointly the false story to everyone who asked? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you knew that if she was asked when you weren't there, she would back it up, yes? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM she knew that when you were being asked if she wasn't there, you would advance the false story, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and the two of you were giving each other approval in a sense, tacit approval? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure what you mean. MR LATHAM support? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and I suggest that this alibi story, or false story, was all cooked up within the first few hours - not on the Wednesday evening before these media interviews on Thursday, but within the first few hours? IAN HUNTLEY you suggest wrongly---- MR JUSTICE MOSES sorry, somebody made a noise, say it again? IAN HUNTLEY it is wrong. MR LATHAM you discussed it on the Monday, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM I would like you to look, if you will, please, at tab 8 of the grey file, please, at the first telephone conversation that Maxine Carr had with your mother on 18th October, over the page, at page 2, five minutes 18 seconds in, do you have that, two thirds of the way down the page on page 2, 518? IAN HUNTLEY there are no numbers on here. MR LATHAM in the margin, 518? IAN HUNTLEY there's no numbers in the margin. MR LATHAM I hope Members of the Jury you have it. page 2. The jury actually heard the tape played of this conversation, Mr Huntley, on Friday last week. Five minutes 18 seconds, do you see that? it is your mother speaking "you know on the Sunday that you spoke to him? Maxine Yes. did you discuss lying and alibis? Maxine No, not on the Sunday. not on the Sunday, on the Monday. on the Monday you did that? yes."? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I heard that on the tape. MR LATHAM that's what she said. You were not there to hear that conversation but I ask you to comment was she right when she said that when talking to your mother or not? IAN HUNTLEY I don't remember any conversation about an alibi on the Monday. MR LATHAM you see, I suggest there was, and I suggest it for this reason from lunch time on Monday onwards, which is when that policeman came into your home, took your first witness statement, you were speaking about, "we did this" and "we did that? IAN HUNTLEY no, I didn't give him the impression either way. MR LATHAM you were confident she was going to support you weren't you, as a result what the two of you had agreed on the telephone? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM the following day, the Friday, back to the chronology, the bottom of page 12, a police officer came into your home doing house-to-house inquiries, correct? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and we know that he had a form and needed to fill two forms in, one for you and one for Maxine and they were filled in while you were all in the room together, weren't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes, they was. MR LATHAM by then, this story was getting little adaptations wasn't it? it was getting more sophisticated, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, I believe it stayed pretty much the same. MR LATHAM essentially it was the same, of course. You said you spoke to them and they had left; they had asked to see "Miss Carr" and Miss Carr, Maxine, was up in the bath and you told her later? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM do you remember one of the things that the form needed "What is a formal description of what you were wearing at the time?"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because it is one of those things, a standard form with lots of boxes on it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you gave a description of your T-shirt, or your top that you were wearing on that Sunday? IAN HUNTLEY I gave a description of my yellow shirt. MR LATHAM and Maxine actually argued with you in front of the police officer about what you were wearing on the Sunday night, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY I believe she did, yes. MR LATHAM and it culminated with her saying you were wearing a different coloured top and - "I should know I do the bloody washing" is what she said, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something like that. MR LATHAM this story was getting pretty sophisticated by then, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, to me it just stayed the same. MR LATHAM but Mr Huntley, it sounds so much more believable, doesn't it, if the two of you are actually arguing about the colour of your top? IAN HUNTLEY what Maxine said there was not something discussed, it was just something she said. MR LATHAM it was her little adaptation, was it to make it sound better? IAN HUNTLEY it was not discussed. MR LATHAM she had no idea what top you had on on the Sunday did she, or did you tell her? IAN HUNTLEY I may have told her, I can't remember. MR LATHAM (inaudible)? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know if I did, I'm saying I may have done. MR LATHAM you may have done? this may be important, Mr Huntley. Why should she have been the slightest bit interested in what item of clothing you had on on the Sunday? IAN HUNTLEY in case the police asked for a description of what I was wearing. MR LATHAM was she concerned about forensic evidence as well? IAN HUNTLEY no, if I had told her that, that would have been the reason as to why I told her, in case the police asked for a description of what I was wearing. MR LATHAM on Saturday there was the BBC Look east interview. That's the first transcript we looked at yesterday morning. it is in tab 1 of the grey file, and it is the section towards the end which is paginated, and it is page 7. near the end there is a section all in the same type face and it is paginated the bottom right hand corner. have you got it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM page 7, 10th August BBC Look East. It was done for local area news, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you start off, need not go through it in detail, with the standard story about "brushing Sadie down, cleaning her up before I let her in the house"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM of course you had on your story now already let her in the house, you had put her in the downstairs cloakroom, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I had. MR LATHAM over the page, please, the top of the page "nothing out of the ordinary in the behaviour of the two girls. they seemed very very happy, pleasant and, like I say, very chatty". That's how you wanted people to believe they were, did you? IAN HUNTLEY that was how I wanted people to believe they had left, yes. MR LATHAM it is about as different a picture as one could possibly imagine, isn't it, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and then you go on in your next answer "it has been very hard because with that in mind, all the press have been hounding us trying to get pictures, statements, what have you, and I just wish I had said or found more about where they were going, what they were doing. In hindsight you just wish you had said or done something more. it is just very unfortunate that Maxine had not been down here, because like she said, she would have spoken to them and questioned them about things". She knew what you were saying, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY she knew? MR LATHAM what you were saying to the press, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and then you go on to deal with talking, approaching Kev and, as it were, giving him a hope didn't you? down at the bottom of the page, we looked at that yesterday? IAN HUNTLEY I said to him "I hope everything turns out okay". MR LATHAM sorry I couldn't hear any of that? IAN HUNTLEY I said "I hope everything turns out okay". MR LATHAM that you actually went out, sought out Mr Wells who you described as "Kev", and troubled to have a chat with him and to give him hope? IAN HUNTLEY no, the main reason was to apologise to him, which is what I did. MR LATHAM I'm sorry, Mr Huntley - over the page at page 9 you answer at the top of the page "Kev didn't approach me, I actually went and approached Kev"? IAN HUNTLEY that's correct, I did. MR LATHAM your decision to talk to him? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM at page 8 you told the journalist what you said to him, the bottom of page 8? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I actually did say to Kev that I was sorry, I didn't know it was his daughter. MR LATHAM that's not just what you said, you said "I hope everything turns out okay and, you know, that the kids return safely home" when you had put them dead in a ditch. You had the strength and the will to be able to do that, didn't you, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY it wasn't something I wanted to do. MR LATHAM but you chose to do it. he didn't come to you and get you in a corner and, as it were, leave you with no option but to say something you sought him out? IAN HUNTLEY "sorry", yes, "Kev", yes. MR LATHAM how did you feel when you chose to say those things to him, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I felt terrible. MR LATHAM why did you say them then? IAN HUNTLEY because I wanted to apologise to him, which is what did. I did apologise to him. MR LATHAM what do you mean, you apologised to him? You gave him false hope. You made it even worse for him, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY probably, yes. MR LATHAM you did it quite deliberately, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, that wasn't deliberate. MR LATHAM you sought him out? IAN HUNTLEY yes, and I told you why. MR LATHAM you did it in order to shift suspicion from you, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I went over to him to apologise, I said to him I'm sorry I didn't know that Holly was his daughter. MR LATHAM but it is what else you said? IAN HUNTLEY yes, the other things I said as well. MR LATHAM what else you said was looking after Ian Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY the reason to go and see Kev was to apologise. MR LATHAM you didn't have to say that, and in saying it it was better for you, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY I don't see how it was better for me, no. MR LATHAM it is making you sound as though you are an innocent man, doesn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, that was not the way I see it. MR LATHAM but it does, doesn't it? IAN HUNTLEY by saying, "Sorry, I didn't know she was your daughter"? MR LATHAM "I hope everything turns out okay", it makes you sound like a reasonable, concerned innocent man? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that part does, yes. MR LATHAM you did that out of your own self-interest, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you were prepared to do it and to use one of the very parents of the children who died----? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't use him. I didn't use him. MR LATHAM what were you doing? IAN HUNTLEY I was apologising. MR LATHAM so you keep saying. to another journalist at midday, Sherriff, you said the police had done a magnificent job. what did you mean by that? IAN HUNTLEY that they was doing everything that they could do. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY that they was doing everything that they could do. MR LATHAM they was doing everything that they could do? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were actually praising the police? IAN HUNTLEY Yes, they was doing, working hard and doing everything they could do. MR LATHAM while you ran rings round them? well, you were, weren't you? you were running rings round them at this stage weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I wouldn't say I was running rings round them, no. MR LATHAM you were deliberately keeping one or two or three steps ahead of them the whole time, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know if I was or wasn't. MR LATHAM sending them off on false trails, weren't you? We have been through this yesterday afternoon I don't want to go through it again, the red Fiesta, the bin man. Sending them all false trails? IAN HUNTLEY They weren't false trails. MR LATHAM we went through that, I'm not going through it again Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY yes, we did. MR LATHAM of course, you in turn, it turns out, were lying to them in a formal legal document, your witness statement? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were virtually laughing at police? IAN HUNTLEY No, I wasn't laughing at them. MR LATHAM you were laughing? IAN HUNTLEY I wasn't laughing at the police. MR LATHAM you were being totally cynical? IAN HUNTLEY no. MR LATHAM that same afternoon, the two police officers, constables, Hope and Long came to take what turned out to be individual witness statements from you, didn't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the house is described as very clean with the smell of air freshener. is that right? IAN HUNTLEY it always smells of air freshener. MR LATHAM sorry? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it always smells of air freshener. MR LATHAM you actually described both having taken the dog for the walk that afternoon didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY Sunday afternoon? MR LATHAM yes. That was another embellishment, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes, we did lie to the officers. MR LATHAM you were quite confident that when Maxine went off into the dining room to make her statement, that she was going to do a job for you, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY when she went into the? MR LATHAM dining room, to make her witness statement, it was going to be a formal, legal document, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you know what a witness statement is, because you had already made one, hadn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM with a formal declaration swearing to the truth of the contents against signature. you knew she was going to do that, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I had good idea she was going to do that, yes. MR LATHAM not a good idea, you knew she would do it for you, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't know that she would actually do that on a legal document, no. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY we was discussing it just before the police arrived. we was expecting the police at (inaudible) point we was told a police officer would be coming round. MR LATHAM what are you discussing? IAN HUNTLEY as to whether she would do that or not, whether she was going to do that or not. MR LATHAM the die was cast you had been talking to the press - to anybody who had talked to you about it? IAN HUNTLEY I know I, but---- MR LATHAM you had given the story that involved the two of you? IAN HUNTLEY for her to put that on a legal document, a police document, and saying to the press are two separate things, they are two different things. MR LATHAM she appreciated that it was very serious, didn't she? IAN HUNTLEY yes, she appreciated it was serious to lie to the police, yes. MR LATHAM and you knew when she went into the dining room she was going to say it? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't certain at all. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, if she had said something different you would probably have been arrested within the next few minutes? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I wasn't sure what to say to the police officer in the living room. MR LATHAM you were absolutely confident? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't. MR LATHAM that she would lie for you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I wasn't. MR LATHAM On the Wednesday, we are over at page 14 now, the then senior officer in charge of the investigation, Mr Beck made an announcement, didn't he, which you got to hear about, a public announcement? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM an appeal to you, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM "I appeal to you again to work with me to stop this getting any worse than it is". Of course, it was far too late by then, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM "you have a way out, I have left you a personal message and a text message on Jessica's mobile phone." listen to that we message, it will tell you how to contact me so we can stop this now. You have the opportunity to speak with me. This is the time to use it". You heard that announcement, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did. MR LATHAM you had taken, you say, Jessica's telephone out of her pocket? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM just after you had killed her? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM there were perhaps two questions there. You did admit yesterday that you did kill her? IAN HUNTLEY I was responsible for her death. MR LATHAM you killed her? IAN HUNTLEY I was responsible for her death. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, please do not mince words, you killed her, you admitted that yesterday, didn't you? You put your hands to her mouth, you suffocated her with your hands and you held it there until she died. you admitted that yesterday, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you killed her, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM thank you. MR LATHAM you told us that you then took the telephone out of her pocket? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM tell us again what you did with it in the sequence of events, please. Where does it fit in what you did with it? IAN HUNTLEY I was going over to Lodeside, I was going to go to the office and I posted it into the skip at Lodeside. MR LATHAM when you were on your way to get the petrol can? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you actually took an interest in the message which Superintendent Beck told the world he had put on that mobile, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because in fact, of course, the message is not on the mobile phone itself, is it? It is, as it were, in an electronic box that only that mobile can collect. That's how messenging works? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM when you go to your messaging service on your telephone, what is happening is, because it is your telephone, it is allowing that telephone to have access to the electronic message box, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you actually took an interest in what was on that message, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM why? IAN HUNTLEY I wanted to know what had been said on the telephone. MR LATHAM this is the one step ahead principle again, isn't it? why else could you possibly want to know what Mr Beck had left on the abductor's-, on the phone the abductor had got? IAN HUNTLEY I wanted to know what was on the phone. MR LATHAM yes, but why? IAN HUNTLEY I wanted to know what he was saying. MR LATHAM but why did you want to know what he was saying, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure. I just wanted to know. MR LATHAM I am suggesting the reason you wanted to stay one step ahead of the game. You thought there might be something in that message which you would need to deal with, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure. I know I wanted to know what was on the telephone. MR LATHAM that it might reveal something to you about the knowledge of the police and how close they were getting to you. that's what you were worried about, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I did want to know the police activity, yes. MR LATHAM that's what I put to you about four minutes ago, Mr Huntley, the principle of trying to stay one step ahead by finding out what the police know, isn't it? That's why you wanted to find out what was in that message box, didn't you. didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY probably, yes. MR LATHAM probably yes? you were interviewed by BBC Midlands after Mr Beck's appeal. It is page 11 of the transcripts in the section we have been looking at. We are now on the 14th August. This is Wednesday, so it is ten days after the killings, isn't it, or the killing and the accident? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM have you found page 11? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM down at the bottom of the page you are describing them as seeming very chatty "They walked off chatting away, they seemed happy. I didn't see anybody else around at the time and they certainly didn't seem to have any concerns about anything". That's the standard mantra by now, isn't it, to anyone you speak to, that is the sentence that describes what happened? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM over the page, your second response on the page "is has been very, very stressful. I have seen like when I was out Sunday night searching, morale was high. We all just thought it was a prank you know". What is all this about? IAN HUNTLEY by prank? MR LATHAM no, "When I was out Sunday night searching, morale was high, we all just thought it was a prank, you know". What is all this about? IAN HUNTLEY the prank was by them staying out at a friends house or something. MR LATHAM what are you doing talking about "We all thought it was a prank...". You didn't think it was a prank, did you? IAN HUNTLEY no, I know. MR LATHAM this is another convincing lie, isn't it, Mr Huntley? IAN HUNTLEY I was saying there what the thoughts were on that night and I included myself in those thoughts. MR LATHAM you are including yourself? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I have just said. MR LATHAM "morale has gone down and down and down and the atmosphere you could really cut with a knife". That was one thing which was absolutely truthful, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you could physically see it, and the atmosphere you could really cut with a knife. it was horrible, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the atmosphere in Soham? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it was desperate, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and yet you were able to go on lying, not just telling the story, but giving people hope, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM look at what you said next "I wouldn't like to say what the people are thinking, I mean, whilst there is no news, there is always a glimmer of hope and I think that's what we are all clinging on to. That's all we have got that we can cling on to." You were capable of saying that to camera in the context of the feelings and the emotions in Soham by that Wednesday, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM it was cold, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY it was - what, sorry? MR LATHAM It was cold, wasn't it, what you were doing, it was totally cynical, wasn't it, Mr Huntley ? IAN HUNTLEY yes, it was. MR LATHAM the truth of the matter is, Mr Huntley, that you can tell lies to anyone if it suits your purpose, can't you? IAN HUNTLEY I did tell lies in those two weeks, yes, I have admitted to that. MR LATHAM you can do it, can't you? IAN HUNTLEY I did it, yes. MR LATHAM on the Thursday it was more of the same, wasn't it, page 14. interviewed by Jeremy Thompson of Sky, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM a short little clip, but you see - the second ring binder - Jeremy Thompson says, "safe and well", referring to the children, page 14 have you got it? the second hole punch. "safe and well?" "Yes, yes, absolutely" is what you said, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM over the page it is more of the same, isn't it? "it is a mystery", says Mr Thompson. "absolutely, yes yes, absolutely, I mean, everybody round here - and I have been speaking to a lot of people - what they are saying is, you know, while there is no news there is still that glimmer of hope and that's basically what we are all hanging on to". Even by Thursday you were doing it, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM I need not ask you about your conversation with Chief Inspector Hebb and Inspector Causer about accessing the message box on the telephone because you now accept that you wanted to do that and you were enquiring, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM after the village meeting ITN had an interview with you - the evening interview, do you remember - at your home. There had been a private meeting, hadn't there, for the residents of Soham at the college from which the press were excluded. do you remember that? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I do. MR LATHAM you then saw fit to give ITN your views on that meeting, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY from experience they don't go away until you do give them what they want. I was forced into all these interviews. I didn't want to give these interviews. MR LATHAM once you gave them you didn't just recite what you had seen, you went on to give everybody hope, didn't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because in that interview - your first answer - you said the meeting was very informative, there was a lot of frustration aimed towards the police basically because they had got nowhere else to aim it at. You were actually at a meeting listening to the concerns of the population about the progress of the police inquiry? IAN HUNTLEY I didn't actually stay in the meeting that long. MR LATHAM but you were there? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM bottom of the page, you were defending the police, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM "I'm sure we all understand the reasons they can't answer those kind of questions, but it is very frustrating knowing we have that people that way inclined amongst us, and us not knowing who they are"? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you were - back to the end of the interview - talking about a stranger and a motor car and somebody "just passing through", weren't you ? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM this is another little line, as it were? IAN HUNTLEY another little? MR LATHAM Line, another little thought, another little distraction? IAN HUNTLEY what? MR LATHAM suggesting, inferring, implying it is a stranger that came through Soham with a motor car that might be responsible? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM We are back to the red Fiesta again aren't we? IAN HUNTLEY no, that was true. MR LATHAM we went through it yesterday. The reason you mentioned it was in the context of the police search for the girls, isn't it ? IAN HUNTLEY that was why it was mentioned, yes. MR LATHAM Mr Huntley, that takes us back to where I started yesterday morning, the morning interview by GMTV on the Friday, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY no, I can't really remember where you started. MR LATHAM well, that's where I started yesterday. Which is yet more of the same, isn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM up to the moment when you are arrested you continued to be capable of telling lies, of expressing bogus concern. That is right, isn't it? it is wholly bogus concern, isn't it ? IAN HUNTLEY no, I was concerned about what had happened. MR LATHAM You were concerned for yourself? IAN HUNTLEY no, I was concerned about what had happened. MR LATHAM it is bogus concern, the "hope" and all that stuff? IAN HUNTLEY that, yes. MR LATHAM you were peddling that nonsense right the way up until you were arrested, weren't you, Mr Huntley? it was nonsense, wasn't it? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you were capable of doing that for the best part of a fortnight, weren't you ? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM An entirely different topic. you described yesterday afternoon, when I was asking you about taking the bodies down to the car and putting them into the boot of the car - you remember that? shutting the boot? I just want to understand the sequence of events. you closed the boot; did you lock the car? IAN HUNTLEY the boot its self-locking, I think. MR LATHAM you locked it, I think you said, when you first had taken the girls into the house? IAN HUNTLEY yes it should be, yes. MR LATHAM you mentioned getting the keys from the table when you went out to open the boot, to put the bodies in the boot, didn't you, yesterday afternoon? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM the bodies go in the boot, you shut the boot and the parcel shelf hides the two bodies? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM where did you go next? IAN HUNTLEY I went back into the house. MR LATHAM what did you do in the house? IAN HUNTLEY emptied the bath and the sink and cleaned up the sink. MR LATHAM I want to take it in stages; you pulled the plug out of the bath? IAN HUNTLEY first of all I went to the kitchen to get cleaning materials. MR LATHAM what did you need to clean? IAN HUNTLEY the sick off the carpet. MR LATHAM and you clean up the sick off the carpet? IAN HUNTLEY yes, that was it. MR LATHAM you pulled the plug on the bath and mentioned the basin? IAN HUNTLEY the sink. MR LATHAM what was the sink? IAN HUNTLEY the sink had some water in it. MR LATHAM from where you had been dunking the tissues? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM was there any blood in the sink? IAN HUNTLEY I think there was a bit, yes. MR LATHAM you could rinse that out just by turning the tap, couldn't you ? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM what was the cloth used for? IAN HUNTLEY to clean up the sink- sick. MR LATHAM what sort of cloth was that? IAN HUNTLEY what sort of cloth? MR LATHAM What sort of cloth was it you used to clean up the sick? IAN HUNTLEY it would have been like a floor cloth. MR LATHAM so you have had the clean-up upstairs. then what did you do? IAN HUNTLEY put the materials away. threw the cloth into the bin. MR LATHAM threw the cloth into? IAN HUNTLEY the bin. MR LATHAM the bin in the kitchen? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM then you left the house? IAN HUNTLEY I changed my shoes first. MR LATHAM changed your shoes? why did you change your shoes? IAN HUNTLEY because I had my Brasher boots on. MR LATHAM those walking boots? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM you changed into? IAN HUNTLEY the trainers. MR LATHAM why did you change from walking boots into trainers when in fact you were planning on going outside? IAN HUNTLEY I don't really wear my Brasher's outside that often, only when I'm going on, in fact I don't wear them very often at all. MR LATHAM you are still wearing the yellow shirt, are you? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM work trousers? IAN HUNTLEY No, I think I had my beige jeans on. MR LATHAM jeans on? IAN HUNTLEY jeans on. MR LATHAM the trainers? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you have any coat or anything like that? IAN HUNTLEY No. MR LATHAM you went across to the school----? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM ----and you got the petrol can and the two bin bags? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and some gloves? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM because you didn't want anything from your hands to get on to what? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM what did you need the gloves for? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not really sure, I just took them. MR LATHAM gloves are there to protect hands, aren't they? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM from something. what was it you envisaged needed protecting? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure, it was just something I took. MR LATHAM You were later to put them on, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I did put them on. MR LATHAM back to the house with the petrol can. I take it you had the car keys in your pocket by this stage? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM unlocked the passenger door and in goes the can and two bin bags? IAN HUNTLEY I'm not sure if it was the driver's or passenger's. MR LATHAM you unlocked the door and you have now got all you need? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you set off? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM when you got out of car to dump the bodies, that's when you put the gloves on, I take it? IAN HUNTLEY I can't remember at which stage I put the gloves on. MR LATHAM did you put the gloves on? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I put the gloves on. MR LATHAM you cut the clothes off the bodies on the bank, you take the bin bags off your feet? IAN HUNTLEY Yes. MR LATHAM what did you do with the clothes? IAN HUNTLEY I put the clothing into the bin bags. MR LATHAM what, both bags or one? IAN HUNTLEY I put one bag inside the other and put the clothing into it. MR LATHAM it is a double thickness bag, clothes go in? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM did you just leave it loose, or did you knot it? IAN HUNTLEY I think I just left them loose. MR LATHAM did you know the bin bag was knotted when it was found? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I put them into a different bin bag at the college. MR LATHAM empty petrol can in the car with the bin bag. What has happened to the gloves? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know, didn't even remember about the gloves until you mentioned them yesterday. MR LATHAM what happened now that I have reminded you? IAN HUNTLEY I must have left them there. MR LATHAM left them? IAN HUNTLEY I must have left them there, yes. MR LATHAM they weren't found there, just tiny pieces of glove that were found there? IAN HUNTLEY I don't know then. Like I say, I didn't even remember the gloves until you said about them yesterday. MR LATHAM I am right, though, that you were wearing gloves, weren't you? IAN HUNTLEY I still can't recall wearing them but I'm not saying that I wasn't. I can't remember. MR LATHAM we have been through it you said you got them when you got the petrol? IAN HUNTLEY I would have done - if I was wearing gloves - that's where I would have got them from. MR LATHAM you drive back to Soham, stopping off on the way to fill the car up and the petrol can up? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM just describe what you did from driving into Soham, please. where did the car go? IAN HUNTLEY I parked the car at the front of my house. MR LATHAM and? IAN HUNTLEY at that point I went over to the college. MR LATHAM carry on, and be careful? IAN HUNTLEY sorry? MR LATHAM be careful. I'm listening. "over to the college"? IAN HUNTLEY yes, I went into the college, Lodeside office, and emptied the clothing into another black bag. MR LATHAM another black bag? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM why did you do that? IAN HUNTLEY because they had been down the Drove. I don't really know. It was just something I did. MR LATHAM you emptied the clothing into yet another bin bag. Where did you get that bin bag from? IAN HUNTLEY that was in Lodeside office. MR LATHAM in the office? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM which left you with two bin bags which you used as outer footwear? IAN HUNTLEY yes, they went into Lodeside skip. MR LATHAM with the telephone? IAN HUNTLEY the telephone had gone in earlier, yes. MR LATHAM carry on? IAN HUNTLEY I collected the playground gate keys and the hangar keys. There was a bottle, what we used to put detergent in. MR LATHAM you filled that with----? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you went over to the hangar? IAN HUNTLEY yes. MR LATHAM and you thought