Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman - Documents 04/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Thursday, 04 December 2003 SKY News Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear. Page 01 02 MR JUSTICE MOSES just while the defendant is going into the witness box, I have had a question which I understand counsel have seen. MR LATHAM my Lord, yes. MR JUSTICE MOSES no doubt it can be answered. MR LATHAM my Lord, it can, some of the evidence has been given. we can no doubt sort out the remainder. It would be best, I think, if possible, to do it by agreement. MR JUSTICE MOSES it certainly doesn't affect this witness at the moment. right, yes, Mr Coward? MAXINE CARR (Re-examined) MR COWARD Miss Carr, you believed what Mr Huntley suggested to you both over the telephone and face to face; that he was nothing to do with the disappearance of the girls? MAXINE CARR that's correct, yes. MR COWARD for that reason, the only lie that it was necessary for you to tell, if anyone asked you questions about the 4th August, was the lie putting you at Soham rather than in Grimsby? MAXINE CARR yes, that's correct. MR COWARD so when the police were asking you to give an account of the whole history, that was the only area that you had to be careful about to suppress, the fact you were in Grimsby, to put forward the fact you were in Soham? MAXINE CARR yes, that's right. MR COWARD because as you thought at the time, there was nothing about the house, number 5 College Close, that was significant at all, was there? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD there was nothing about the car, the Fiesta, that was significant at all, was there? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD so on those topics, the house and the car, you felt free to tell it as it was? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and when the police interviewed you on tape you did tell is as it was, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD are you conscious that what you have told the Jury now is in some respects different from what you told the police on tape? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD I will speak about it generally for the moment and look at it in detail in due course. what has caused you to say things now in evidence which are different from what you told the police? MAXINE CARR when I was being interviewed by the police, they were trying to say that my partner, the man I loved, that's a murderer. They were also trying to say that I was a murderer. They were trying to get every bit of information they could out of me that was bad against Ian, even going into behaviour towards me. I was not going to add anything bad to them. that's why a lot of the time I tried to make it look better for Ian. MR COWARD but that's I why asked you the questions that I started with. with your belief that Ian was innocent, there was nothing bad about number 5 was there? MAXINE CARR there was nothing bad about the house, no. MR COWARD there was nothing bad about the car, was there? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD could you be provided with the green folder, your interviews, beginning on 17th August? MAXINE CARR whereabouts does that start please? MR COWARD if you go through the bundle you will come to to a section. I hope it is section 6, it is in mine. After a few introductory pages you come to record of interview? MAXINE CARR okay. MR COWARD there are a few introductory pages, skip over those and we get record of interview? MAXINE CARR okay. MR COWARD if you turn to the third page of it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD about half-way down the page you say "and I'm sorry if I have wasted time, and all that. I wanted to tell you yesterday and I told about Ian. What happened to Ian before and everything, and he just doesn't do anything like that. I mean he rang me on the Monday, he told me he had been out all night searching with these policemen; he rang me all weekend because I have an eating disorder and he rings up to make sure I eat when I'm not around. He rang me on the Monday and said he had been searching, then in the afternoon I was at my grandad's with my uncle and aunty and he rang up and told me the names of the girls that had gone missing". Pausing there for a moment the girls, when they spoke to Mr Huntley, according to Mr Huntley were disappointed that you were not there and said "would you tell Miss Carr that we are sorry she didn't get the job".? MAXINE CARR words to that effect, yes. MR COWARD and told Mr Huntley their names, that they were Holly and Jessica? MAXINE CARR that's not what Mr Huntley told me. MR COWARD if he is right, that the girls did give him their names, can you think of any reason why he shouldn't pass it on, tell you at 6.56 in the morning when he first spoke to you? MAXINE CARR according to Ian, later on in the day when he told me the names, he told me he didn't tell me in the morning because he didn't want to upset me. MR COWARD have you ever said that before or is that the first time you ever said that? MAXINE CARR I said that in my proof of evidence and to my legal team, yes. MR COWARD I see. right at the bottom of the page, when did you decide to tell a lie? "the first day he rang me on the Monday and he was in absolute tears", you rather give the impression that it was on the Monday that you decided you would lie, but I think on reflection? MAXINE CARR it was the Tuesday. MR COWARD and my client agrees with you that it was on the Tuesday that there was such a discussion. could you turn, please, to page 82? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD at the bottom of page 82 you are talking about keys to fit the hangar. If you turn to 83, by the bottom punch hole, "okay, all right, I might have already asked this", the officer is saying, "forgive me if I have. was there anything that you noticed different about the house when you got - apart from the state of it obviously, yes, with him not having cleaned up anything - anything different you noticed about the house?" "that wasn't before I went away", you said. "that wasn't before you went away, yes". "anything new when you came back? anything new in the house that Ian has brought apart from the beer and crisps you mentioned?" answer "No." according to you now in this court there was something different wasn't there, unusual? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD what was it? MAXINE CARR the duvet in the washing machine. MR COWARD wasn't this, on page 83, a perfect opportunity, if the duvet was in the washing machine, for you to say so to the police? MAXINE CARR sir, the duvet was in the washing machine when I got back, but I was under a lot of pressure when I was giving the interviews, I was being blamed for the murder of two children that I thought a lot of, and my boyfriend was being accused of those murders and lots of thing were going around in my head, little nitty things were not. MR COWARD the picture you paint of Ian Huntley in the household is as a slob isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD He washed up twice in his life with you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and you come home, according to you, and he has managed to work out how to use the washing machine? MAXINE CARR yes, but he also said in interview that he managed to hoover the house and he had never used the hoover before in his life. MR COWARD this was startling, wasn't it , if what you are saying is right, that you get home and Wonderman has managed to put the duvet in the washing machine, you never thought to mention it? MAXINE CARR there was more important things to think about like the two children going missing. MR COWARD here the officer says to you "anything new when you came back", was there anything that you noticed, different about the house when you got back? You were given a clear opportunity to say he had got the duvet in the washing machine, he had got the cover for the duvet in the washing machine, and you think he had got the bath mat? MAXINE CARR I think, yes. MR COWARD none of that mentioned at this stage? MAXINE CARR no, as I say, I had just been arrested for murder, and I was asked questions, I was in a hell of a state and before I - I didn't have any chance to speak to my legal representatives, it was all coming out in the flow, so I'm sorry, I forgot about those things but I remembered it since and it has been written down by my legal team, and that was last year. MR COWARD I'm not suggesting for one moment, Miss Carr, that you invented it as you stood there in the witness box, but what I am saying to you is that at some stage you have decided to change your story, to add a few bits? MAXINE CARR No, only- sir, this is not (inaudible) story, they were asking me questions and I was answering them (inaudible) desperate state. MR COWARD in this interview you said you washed the duvet covers every week? MAXINE CARR I changed the sheets, yes. MR COWARD Put one in the wash and put a clean one on? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD did you put the duvet in as well? MAXINE CARR I have never washed that duvet before in my life. MR COWARD have you ever tried to get it in your washing machine? MAXINE CARR I never tried to get it into the washing machine because I have never washed it. MR COWARD it is a double duvet? MAXINE CARR yes, it is. MR COWARD according to you, this duvet, plus cover and you think a bath mat as well? MAXINE CARR I can't be sure about the bath mat. I believe it was in there, but I know the duvet and duvet cover were in there. MR COWARD what makes you believe the bath mat was in there if you can't be sure? MAXINE CARR I can't be sure, all I know it was not in the bathroom when I was up there. I know it was on that line at some point over these two weeks. I can't remember if it was in there at the time, but the duvet and the cover was. MR COWARD say that again- "I know at sometime it was on the line..."? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD when? MR JUSTICE MOSES at some point in the two weeks? MAXINE CARR some point in the two week period. MR COWARD and because it was on the line at some point in the two week period, you think that that helps you to come to the conclusion it was in the washing machine with the duvet and the cover? MAXINE CARR I believe it may not have been there. It may have - I'm not saying it was. MR COWARD the way you said it yesterday was "I think the bath mat"? MAXINE CARR I think the bath mat. MR COWARD when you gave your evidence, you told the Members of the Jury when Mr Huntley arrived in Grimsby (inaudible) the boot of the Fiesta was opened? MAXINE CARR no, that was when we were leaving, the boot of the car was opened. MR COWARD you noticed it was clean inside? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and you noticed something about the carpet? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD tell us again what you now say about the carpet in the boot? MAXINE CARR it wasn't the same carpet that had been in there originally. MR COWARD when do you say it had been changed? MAXINE CARR I believe it had been changed while I had been away. I cannot recall that carpet being in there because the factory-fitted carpet used to cover the whole entirety of the boot - this did not. MR COWARD when Mr Huntley gave evidence to the jury he talked about that carpet, didn't he? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD in answer to questions from me he said it was some months before that he had cut out a piece of the carpet to fit it because it was dirty and smelly? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD do you remember any questions being asked (on your behalf) of Mr Huntley to suggest that that was wrong? MAXINE CARR on my behalf? MR COWARD on your behalf? MAXINE CARR all I know is what Ian told me was that he had to clean the car because he had had Sadie in it. MR JUSTICE MOSES no, no. MAXINE CARR sorry? MR JUSTICE MOSES you must listen to Mr Coward's questions. MR COWARD do you have any recollection, after I sat down, of counsel (on your behalf) asking Mr Huntley any questions to suggest that changing the carpet some months before was wrong? MAXINE CARR no, I don't. MR COWARD is that because this a relatively recent addition to your account? MAXINE CARR no, sir, it has been in my proof of evidence for a while. MR COWARD who do you say first raised the question; I (inaudible) call it an alibi - strictly it is not but a form of short - and who first raised the idea of you providing an alibi? MAXINE CARR your client, Mr Huntley. MR JUSTICE MOSES strictly speaking of course I was wrong to describe it as an alibi because it is saying because I wasn't in the house I was not where ever the girls were murdered - if they were murdered. we may have to think about it. It matters. saying, "It can't have been me because I wasn't in the house." sorry. MR COWARD the note I have of yesterday, he said, "just tell anyone who asks you were here." MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and you are clear in your mind, are you, that that is how it went? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR COWARD that was something that you could be mistaken about as to who raised it? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD no? well, let's just test that proposition by looking at what you had to say to the police in the interview in relation to this topic. could you look, please, at page 88? half-way down the page you are saying "because he wouldn't do anything like that, he wouldn't hurt anybody". How do you know that? and you say "I know him inside out". Turn on to 89. about 8 lines up "but no, I wouldn't protect him and he wouldn't expect me to protect him from anything like that. all he has ever told me to do was to tell you the truth, which is why I have changed my statement and I have told you the truth. If he didn't want me to tell you the truth he would have pleaded and pleaded. he would have asked me to lie for him but he didn't"? MAXINE CARR where is that, please? its not in mine. MR JUSTICE MOSES page 89 at the bottom? MAXINE CARR I'm on 89 now. okay, yes. MR COWARD it is my fault. the bottom 7 or 8 lines "all he has ever told me to do is to tell you the truth, which is why I have changed my statement and I have told you the truth. if he didn't want me to tell you the truth, he would have pleaded and pleaded. He would have asked me to lie for him. but he didn't. He is very open about everything he has done, open about how he has helped and everything and that's it and to have done something like that...". Then you go on to deal with other aspects of the matter. the bottom punch hole you say this "I'm not lying about it, I have told you the truth now." ...about everything, about all my whereabouts,. Ian never asked me to lie about anything. I did it because I couldn't see him go through it. I couldn't see his mother go through it. that's the only reason why I told him that I was here. Perhaps he didn't ask, perhaps he suggested to you? He didn't suggest anything to me. Officer I want you to be very certain about what you are saying, did Ian ask you to suggest to the police or him to you in any way? no." when did Ian get to find out what you had actually put in your statement? That's the written statement where you went into another room to give it, isn't it? MAXINE CARR no, it's not, that's what I told the police (inaudible) when I was in the hotel - you may be at cross purposes. MR COWARD turn to the next page, 91 "Ian said that you have lied to them now, what are you going to do now? that was basically his reaction. You shouldn't have done that. That's a reference back to the time the two police officers came to your house, isn't it? MAXINE CARR the first time I had to say that I was in the house, in the bathroom, was when I spoke to the police, the bobby on the beat who came round to get statements. MR COWARD when the two police officers came to the house and you went into the dining room, you said in that statement, didn't you, you were at Soham? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir, and can I say how that statement came about - am I allowed to do that? MR COWARD when the police officers had gone, Mr Huntley asked you what you told the policeman and you said you told them the lie, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD that's what you are talking about here, isn't it? MAXINE CARR am I not allowed to say how that lie came about? I just asked you that question? you had a statement from the two police officers that came into our home, a young lady, and she said, when she came to the house, she asked me if I had made a statement and I said I had because I thought I had, and I thought the policeman on the beat was a statement. Mr Huntley said, no, you have not made a statement, you are going to have to make one. And he said that in this witness box. I was pushed into a corner, sir - yes, I did lie, but I was pushed into a corner to do it. MR COWARD are you saying by that that Mr Huntley pushed you into the corner to lie - or the police? MAXINE CARR Mr Huntley put me into a position where I could not do anything but do that. MR COWARD how? MAXINE CARR because he was stood there, he was telling the police officer I had to make a statement, the police officer was looking at me as if to say "Are you going to make a statement?" I could hardly say "No, I'm not, I have been lying." MR COWARD was there anything to stop you from going into the other room with the police officer and giving the statement saying "I was in Grimsby"? MAXINE CARR I couldn't do that sir because if I had, I would have come out and Ian would have been arrested and I would have been arrested probably as well but I wasn't the issue in all this. MR COWARD so you decided, you, Maxine Carr, decided you were going to tell the lie? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir. MR COWARD and you did? MAXINE CARR I had no choice. MR COWARD and when the police officers had left, Mr Huntley said to you "What have you told them"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and you told him you had told a lie? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and what was his reaction? MAXINE CARR he told me that they wouldn't believe that I had been in the bath for an hour. He then said they were going to come back. They were going to come back because I had cocked the story up. He then said he would have to write it down and remember it, that's when the note was written on the Saturday. MR COWARD I want to see what you say on page 91. Ian said that "You have told them now, what are you going to do now"? That was basically his reaction "you shouldn't have done that"? what do you say to that? MAXINE CARR he also goes on to say "You are just going to mess it all up". MR COWARD let's come to come that in due course, could you answer my question now why are you saying here, his reaction was "You shouldn't have done that"? MAXINE CARR he said to me you shouldn't have done that, but he wanted me to do that. MR COWARD a few moments ago you were saying to the Jury that you felt that he pushed you into a corner? MAXINE CARR he did push me into a corner. MR COWARD and you are now saying he said "You shouldn't have done that"? MAXINE CARR he did say that. MR COWARD which version are we to accept, Miss Carr? MAXINE CARR that is what he said. MR COWARD let's read on. Officer "did he say why you shouldn't have done that"? answer 'Because they are going to find out, because you were not, like, you were not where you say you are, and stuff like that. you are just going to mess it all up'. He suggested that I just told you the truth. Even then I just couldn't, it was just seeing him at the Holiday Inn when he was telling me, 'Tell them the truth', so I came in and told you". You are distinguishing here, aren't you, between a conversation after the two police officers had been to the house and a later conversation at the Holiday Inn? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR COWARD the meaning is clear, you are saying that he was unhappy that you told the lie in the witness statement, wasn't he? MAXINE CARR he was unhappy, but he didn't stop me from doing it . MR COWARD if he was pressing you to do it, why was he unhappy? MAXINE CARR I don't know. MR COWARD I suggest, Miss Carr, a simple truth that what the Members of the Jury have here is the truth? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR COWARD how it came about? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR COWARD you were anxious to help? MAXINE CARR no, sir. I was trying to make Ian look better than he actually is. You have no idea about the relationship I have with Mr Huntley. MR COWARD what was the purpose of that remark? MAXINE CARR Nothing, I'm just trying to make it clear that you do not know the kind of person Ian Huntley is towards me. MR COWARD to your right- at the end of the interviews with the police? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir, I think so. MR COWARD they were telling you what they found weren't they? fingerprints on a bin background, a bin bag in a bin with the girls' Manchester United shirts in it? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR COWARD and they were giving you a hard time, weren't they? MAXINE CARR yes, they were. MR COWARD and you did not give an inch, did you? MAXINE CARR about Ian killing children? MR COWARD about anything? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD you didn't crack, did you? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD you were able to hold your own with a couple of experienced police officers giving you a hard time? MAXINE CARR because I knew that Ian Huntley hadn't killed those kids, deep down inside. MR COWARD and because you have got a mind of your own, haven't you? MAXINE CARR I have a mind of my own now. I have had for 16 months anyway. MR COWARD this interview with the police wasn't 16 months ago, it was in August? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD you had a mind of your own then, it proves it? MAXINE CARR it obviously proves I didn't know what I was doing because I was saying that this man hadn't killed those children. MR COWARD can I try and get out of you exactly what you are saying. Are you saying that somehow you were pressured into putting forward the alibi because he overcame your will? MAXINE CARR no, sir, he had a very controlling attitude towards me. MR COWARD when the police asked you about that in these interviews, what did you say to them? MAXINE CARR I told them I wasn't being controlled by anybody, I had no violence against me. MR JUSTICE MOSES sorry didn't hear the last bit? MAXINE CARR that there was no violence against me, yet again to cover for Ian, to make him look a better person. MR COWARD will you turn on, please, to page 112. . MR COWARD you were asked what actions you took after you got back from Grimsby and, near the top punch hole, you say "did all my washing from, like, being away, and Ian's washing, tidied all, tidied all up". At the time you were actually thinking of doing that action did it cross your mind then to say, and I had to take a duvet and a duvet cover and I think a bath mat out? MAXINE CARR no, sir, it never crossed my mind. MR COWARD is that because there wasn't a duvet and----? MAXINE CARR no, sir, the duvet was in that washing machine. MR COWARD turn to 119, the top punch hole. "what do you think about Ian? what do I think about Ian? yes. in relation to what? well, the reason you were saying that untruth to the policeman? answer Nothing, he didn't make me do it. sorry? he hasn't made me do it. he hasn't made you do it? no, so I can't say I hate you because you made me lie to somebody. do you hate him now because he has made you lie to somebody? no, he hasn't made me lie to anybody. you have done it of your own ----? I have done it of my own accord"? MAXINE CARR yes, I'm quite aware I said that to the police officers to make Ian look better. MR COWARD sorry - to make it look better? MAXINE CARR to make Ian look better. I'm hardly going to tell him he is an abusive person who controls you. MR COWARD why not, if it is the truth? MAXINE CARR because I was scared. I was going home to that man at the end of the day. MR COWARD I see. turn to page 156 in that regard, would you? the top punch hole "have you ever been a victim of some sort of abuse by Ian? no, I haven't been a victim of any bloody abuse by any bugger. well, you don't want to believe anything bad of Ian? but there ain't anything bad of Ian, that's why. officer except his fingerprints are on that bag with the clothing of two dead girls. what sort of hold----? Your answer Are the finger-prints on the clothes. who had access to those bags. question What sort of hold has he got over you, Maxine? answer He ain't got any flaming hold over me. God you, you people, just push and push and push". It is crystal clear what you are saying, it is crystal clear as well, I suggest, the mood that you are in in answer that question? MAXINE CARR no, sir, I was not going to make Ian look any worse than they were saying he was. MR COWARD I suggest you are just making it up? MAXINE CARR no, sir, it is very embarrassing to be in a relationship like this. MR COWARD you are making out Ian to be some sort of domestic bad man? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR COWARD when in fact it is not true and wasn't true, Miss Carr? MAXINE CARR it is very very very true. MR COWARD so is all this a clever play by you with the police officers to try to paint one picture to help the man who is abusive towards you, instead of telling the truth? MAXINE CARR I loved that man, no matter what he did to me, I loved him. MR COWARD in your evidence yesterday, you said that you "...would do anything by way of telling lies to help Ian, because you were worried he would lose his job if Mrs Bryden found out two girls had been in the house. She would have been down on him like a tonne of bricks and he would have lost the job"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD feel free to check, Miss Carr, if you like, but I suggest there is not one single mention - I suggest there is not one single mention about lying so that Ian could keep his job in the whole 166 pages of these interviews? MAXINE CARR because the stage had changed there, sir. initially when I gave my lies, that was the reason those children walked away from my house. now they are saying Ian has been accused of murder and they are trying to look into his rape allegation. MR COWARD could I gently suggest an alternative explanation? if you accept in the face of the Jury that the reason you lied was not about school, but was to put the police off the scent? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR COWARD you have not an answer to the charge of conspiring to pervert the course of justice, have you? MAXINE CARR it wasn't to put the police of the scent. Initially I did not want to speak to the police. Ian told me it was just to cover him from people in Soham. MR COWARD your thinking was, was it, that this was why you were going lie so he didn't lose his job? MAXINE CARR No. Initially I believe it, there would be nosy neighbours looking saying there was young children going into the house when he was on his own and that rumour would get back. the rape allegation bothered me, 'course it did. It is not a nice thing to have over you at the end of the day, but the initial reason was that because at the end of the day those children walked away and they were happy. that's what he said. MR COWARD so, at the time you gave that witness statement which said that you were in Soham when you were in Grimsby, do you accept it was designed to put the police off the scent in their investigation? MAXINE CARR in their investigation about finding the children or in their investigation about wasting time by looking at somebody who hadn't done anything? MR COWARD either? MAXINE CARR the latter. MR COWARD so you do accept? MAXINE CARR I do accept it. MR JUSTICE MOSES accept what? MAXINE CARR I accept the reason why I lied is not to stop from them finding the person that took Holly and Jessica but to stop them wasting their time on somebody because he had been accused of rape before. MR COWARD I want to explore that a bit more. I'm not confident I understand it. the police want to find out who has taken the girls? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD they are either still alive or already dead. somebody has taken the girls. One of the possible people who could have taken the girls is Ian Huntley? MAXINE CARR not at that time in my mind, no. MR COWARD in the sense that he did speak to them on the night in question? MAXINE CARR yes, he did speak to them. or he said he spoke to them, I don't know. MR COWARD you in fact knew at the time you gave that statement that the girls had actually been inside the house? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and you knew one of them had had a nosebleed? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD and you believed that, because of Ian's rape allegation, as soon as news of that got to Cambridgeshire he would become suspect and he would go to pieces---- MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD ----as he had over the rape allegation? have I got that right? MAXINE CARR yes, but the reason was more reinforced because his family came round to the house that week, his mother and his father in our home, and his father reinforced it by saying that Ian would lose his job if the school found out about the rape allegation. It was a whole collection of pressure at end of the day, sir. MR COWARD at the time you gave that witness statement to the police, one of the purposes was to put the police off enquiring into Ian, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR enquiring into his past, yes. MR COWARD did it occur to you at the time that if you and Ian agreed to put that false story forward you were diverting true justice? MAXINE CARR no, I don't - I didn't believe I was diverting true justice. I believed the man who had taken these children was still out there roaming around; he was not the man sitting in the living room with me. MR JUSTICE MOSES would you like to ask the question, omitting the word "true" do you not accept you were diverting justice? MR COWARD do you not accept that in doing what you did you were diverting justice? MAXINE CARR I wouldn't call it diverting justice, I know I did wrong by lying, but I wasn't diverting justice because I believed the real person was still out there. MR COWARD during the course of your evidence you said to the members of the jury that you told Ian Huntley you should go and tell the police about Grimsby? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD if you come out with it, that will look better? MAXINE CARR mean about the rape allegation? MR COWARD yes? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD it will look better, it will be better? MAXINE CARR than them finding out. MR COWARD than finding out for themselves. again, Miss Carr, I suggest to you that that does not appear anywhere in 166 pages of taped interview. Can you throw any light on that? MAXINE CARR I don't know. I can't say why it is not in that statement. I was answering questions as I was asked them. MR COWARD or is it a bit of an addition by you? MAXINE CARR no. MR COWARD to ----? MAXINE CARR it has been in my proof of evidence for a long while. MR COWARD to make your position look in rather better light? MAXINE CARR I don't need mine putting in better light, I know exactly what I have done, sir. I have come in this witness box to say what I have done and I'm not going to be blamed for what that thing in that box has done to me or those children. MR COWARD you also said during the course of your evidence "I have never heard before what I have heard in the last few days"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD you mean the evidence that Mr Huntley gave in court, don't you? MAXINE CARR what, in this witness statement or what I have heard in here? MR COWARD no I'm quoting you "I have never heard before what I have heard in the last few days". what were you referring to? MAXINE CARR the evidence Mr Huntley gave. MR COWARD the evidence that Mr Huntley gave? MAXINE CARR that the children died, he killed those children. MR COWARD on 29th October, Miss Carr, before this trial started? MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD were you in court, in the dock, with Mr Huntley when I went through a series of matters that were not in issue? let me remind you of them. "number 1, the deceased girls came into number 5 College Close on 4th August. 2 the deceased died upstairs at number 5. 3, the death of Holly Wells occurred in the bathroom and was accidental. 4 the death of Jessica Chapman occurred, after the incident involving Holy Wells, in the bathroom on the threshold between the bathroom and the landing. 5, he laid hands on Jessica Chapman to stop her from continuing to scream, over what had happened to Holly. 6, he is unsure where - her head or neck or face - he placed his hand or hands. 7, he at no stage intended to cause Jessica Chapman grievous bodily harm or to kill her. 8, he took the deceased in the Ford Fiesta to the deposition site. 9, he deposited the deceased at the deposition site. 10, he cut off their clothing at the deposition site, 11, he attempted to set fire to their bodies. 12, he attempted to burn the deceased's clothing in the bin outside the door of the hangar. 13, thereafter, he placed the bin inside the hangar. 14, Huntley has no memory of Jessica Chapman having her mobile telephone with her. 15, Huntley accepts he changed the tyres of the Ford Fiesta, avers that changes were unconnected with the events that ensue. 16, Huntley denies having deposited the bodies, he even returned to the deposition site." you were sitting in that dock---- MAXINE CARR yes. MR COWARD ----when I read those out? MAXINE CARR but I had not heard Ian Huntley's version of it, had I? MR COWARD what did you mean by saying to the jury I have never heard before what I have heard in the last few days? MAXINE CARR I mean the version that Ian Huntley gave in this witness box of what he said happened, that's it - or the details. You didn't state all the details. You stated what happened, but you didn't state the whole thing. MR COWARD forgive me, Miss Carr, before this trial started you knew, because you were sitting there when I said it to my Lord, that those matters that I have listed, the majority of them, were not in issue in the case, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, but I didn't - this man standing in the dock in the---- MR HUBBARD they were not purposely elevated into admissions the Crown never relied upon them. MR JUSTICE MOSES they couldn't because they weren't admissions. MR HUBBARD exactly. MR JUSTICE MOSES I'm not sure there is really a great dispute between you. I'm not sure how much you want to - at any view you knew he was not going to suggest it was somebody else, so that the earlier intention "It wasn't me, it was someone else", had gone. obviously the impact of hearing somebody going into the witness box and saying what you are claiming he said would be different - I can't understand that. I don't know how much you want to pursue this? MR COWARD my Lord the jury are aware of what the difference is. MR JUSTICE MOSES certainly fair to make the point that certainly this witness would have been well aware that Ian Huntley was not going to blame anybody else for those events. yes, go on. MR COWARD two final matters, Miss Carr. I suggest to you that there were no clothes in the washing machine when you got home from Grimsby? MAXINE CARR there weren't any clothes, sir, it was the duvet and the duvet cover. MR COWARD that is an addition by you I suggest to you that you were aware the carpet in the boot of the Fiesta had been changed some months, May or June, and not over the week that you were away in Grimsby? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR COWARD thank you very much. MR JUSTICE MOSES I'm going to rise for a few minutes. Hearing adjourned - will resume shortly MR LATHAM Tuesday morning, the 6th. You were awake a deal earlier than you have been on the Monday morning weren't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you were expecting Ian to come up and collect you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and, indeed, at 10.32 that morning you were using your mother's telephone to find out where he was and what time he was going to be in Grimsby? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM let's just look at what you knew and what you expected as you sat looking through the front window waiting for Ian to turn up. You were aware that two girls were missing from Soham, weren't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you knew their names? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you knew them as individuals, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM indeed, you were not only fond of them but you had the opportunity to assess their characters? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew the sort of homes they came from, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew because, with your ability to assess the position as an intelligent and sensible individual, that this was desperately desperately serious, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM this wasn't a prank, was it? MAXINE CARR I wouldn't have thought so, no. MR LATHAM 24 hours or so earlier, Ian Huntley had told you that he had spoken to them, hadn't he? MAXINE CARR 24 hours earlier than that morning? MR LATHAM yes? MAXINE CARR no, I didn't know until it was, until the afternoon of the Monday. MR LATHAM he told you first thing on the Monday morning that he had been out searching for two girls and during the course of Monday he told you that he had spoken to the two missing girls, hadn't he? MAXINE CARR in the morning he didn't tell me what kind of children they were, if they were girls, boys, he just said he was looking for some missing kids. MR LATHAM you understand I'm looking at you, Maxine Carr 10.30 in the morning on Tuesday, all right? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM during the course of the Monday he told you he had spoken to the two missing girls? MAXINE CARR Yes, at grandad's yes. MR LATHAM and you knew by that Tuesday morning that he was saying that it could be that he was the last person to have seen them? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew the two girls had been to your home, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, I had. MR LATHAM you knew they had been upstairs? MAXINE CARR yes, to the bathroom, yes. MR LATHAM you knew they had been into your bedroom - or at least one of them had? MAXINE CARR yes, the girl with the nosebleed, yes. MR LATHAM and sat on your bed? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew at least one of them had been in your bathroom? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you had been told that it was the dark-haired one who was bleeding? MAXINE CARR yes, Jessica, yes. MR LATHAM at once you knew that was Jessica rather than Holly, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM he, you knew, wanted you back in Soham, didn't he? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM he wished I was at home, he seemed to find it hard to cope, the police thought he was the last person to see the girls is what you told us yesterday? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM there are not too many good options running through your head? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM that was your state of mind on the Tuesday morning, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you knew that he was driving 100 or so miles that morning because you had agreed to come back to Soham, hadn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you know now from the evidence that you have heard that he had had the confidence to speak to a Police Constable who had been to your home on the Monday about lunch time. You know that now, don't you? MAXINE CARR I know that now, yes. MR LATHAM you know the allegation from the officers who went to his home on the Monday and took his witness statement, the allegation is that he had the confidence to be talking "We did this, we did that..., Maxine is out having an interview for a child minding job"? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM then in the middle of the evening, you know the allegation is that he said to another person, I must go, my Mrs has got my supper or my tea ready and I'm hungry? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM the reason you were going back was that you had agreed to provide him with what we have been calling an alibi? MAXINE CARR no, sir, not at that time, no. MR LATHAM otherwise you were no use to him, were you? MAXINE CARR probably not, but no, the alibi wasn't agreed. MR LATHAM that's why he had the confidence to say what he was saying to witnesses in Soham and why he was troubling to drive all the way to Grimsby. You had indicated to him you would provide him with an alibi, hadn't you? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR LATHAM let's look at your first telephone conversation with his mother. it is tab 8, the call on 18th October. You started off with a short phone card and you had to get another card and make another call? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM over the page to page 2, at the time five minutes and 18 seconds into the conversation, that's two thirds of the way down the page "You know on the Sunday that you spoke to him? yes. did you discuss lying and alibis? no, not on the Sunday" - not on the Sunday, on the Monday? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR LATHAM "on the Monday, you did that? yes." now that is what you said to Lynda Nixon when you spoke to her on the telephone. You had a huge amount of time to think about things by October of last year? MAXINE CARR yes, when (inaudible). MR LATHAM she asked is it the Sunday and you said in terms no, no it is the Monday. Did that----? MAXINE CARR sir, when I was on that phone I was very upset, I was very worried about Ian and I wasn't really thinking about the facts. MR LATHAM that's not right is it? you were certainly upset but it is quite apparent from listening to you that you knew what you were saying, didn't you? MAXINE CARR I don't think I did know what I was saying. MR LATHAM let's look at what happened when you got a new phone card. page 3, the number is redialled - at the first ring binder - you see that the? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM over the page, page 4, almost as soon as you get through, 7 minutes 23 since the first call started, she is saying to you "Something is very wrong, darling, we know there is, but we don't know what, just don't know what. you see that? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you say "something, something happened and I don't know what has happened but" - she interrupts you and says "you know he phoned you on the Monday---- MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM ----he said he discussed lying? yes. can you remember what time that was". Pausing there, there is no confusion here in what you now say, is there? "yes, it was in the afternoon, it was 25 past 4", and you actually identify the telephone call, don't you, the 25 past 4 Monday telephone call? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you go on to say where you were? MAXINE CARR yes, that was the first time---- MR LATHAM "I was at my grandad's. on the Monday? yes. he, that was when he wanted me to come home. that's when he wanted you to come home? yes, on the Monday afternoon? yes, he wanted me to come home then. he said to me that these girls had been, right, he said that there were some kids who had gone missing, and I said oh yes, and he told me who they were and I said, well, I knew who they were." That's when you say he broke to you the news they had actually been in the house? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you told her in terms the alibi and the discussion about lying happened in that call and that's the truth, isn't it it did? MAXINE CARR no, I remember it being on the Tuesday night that we discussed the lying. MR LATHAM you may have discussed it again but he discussed it with you on the Monday, didn't he? MAXINE CARR I knew he was upset on the Monday, that he was worried. MR LATHAM no, no, you knew he was upset. she asked you when you discussed lying and alibis, and you said in terms, twice in that conversation, split by the replacement phone card the Monday, and you particularised where you were when it happened and the time even when it happened? MAXINE CARR I'm sorry, sir, but it was on the Tuesday. MR LATHAM you say "sorry" - but what are you doing? Lying to Lynda Nixon here? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM During what you thought was a private telephone conversation? MAXINE CARR I never thought about the telephone conversation at the end of the day. I was very upset and all I wanted to know what was going on with Ian, and she was asking me questions and I was just talking. MR LATHAM Miss Carr, by the time of this telephone call you had had interviews with the police and they had gone through everything in great detail with you? MAXINE CARR Yes, I had also been in hospital as well before this phone call. MR LATHAM I am not entitled to find out what you said to your legal advisers but you have certainly had legal advice throughout this period haven't you? MAXINE CARR Yes. MR LATHAM when you had this call with Lynda Nixon it is not as if you were being asked for the very first time about things, is it? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM he discussed it with you on the Monday. you knew you were going back to Soham to start lying, didn't you? MAXINE CARR no, sir. I was going back not to lie. MR LATHAM you gave him confidence? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM you told him on the Monday you were prepared to lie for him, didn't you? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR LATHAM because of course you spoke to him for the best part of 15 minutes on the Monday afternoon didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, sir, I believe so. MR LATHAM The chronology has the timing of those calls, page 8 of our chronology? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM within minutes of those two calls in the late afternoon, early evening, 15 minutes' worth of conversation we know now he was out cleaning up the Fiesta? MAXINE CARR I know now he was cleaning up the Fiesta. MR LATHAM was that discussed? MAXINE CARR no, he didn't tell me what he was doing. MR LATHAM you spoke to him again - over the page, page 9 - for six minutes at 20 to 11, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM that would have taken the call through to 22.47, wouldn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM three minutes or so later he is reporting to the special constables that he has seen a man with a black bin bag running across the fields, the sports fields. Did you discuss that with him? MAXINE CARR no---- MR LATHAM during the conversation that ended three minutes earlier? MAXINE CARR no, sir, I didn't even know about that until I heard it. MR LATHAM were you cooking up stories with him during the Monday? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR LATHAM well, on any view you knew he was asking you to come back. Had he said anything about asking you to tell lies? MAXINE CARR on the Monday? MR LATHAM on the - at all? MAXINE CARR on the Monday? MR LATHAM On the Monday? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM so you just misled Lynda Nixon about that? MAXINE CARR I was very confused. MR LATHAM you weren't, with respect, the slightest bit confused during that telephone conversation? MAXINE CARR I was, I was very anxious. We all heard the conversation in this room. MR LATHAM perhaps we ought to hear it again since you describe how anxious you were. I have got it at page 4 in the transcript. look at the transcript, it is going to start at the top of the page. have you got that? MAXINE CARR page 4 (tape played of the conversation). MR LATHAM pausing there, that was the first time Lynda Nixon had ever been told, to your knowledge, that they had come into the house, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR I believe so, yes. MR LATHAM but you told us this morning of certain pressures, which you said were being put on you, not just by Ian Huntley but by his family. They visited you during the fortnight? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM they were never told during those visits that the girls had actually been in the house, were they? MAXINE CARR not by me no. MR LATHAM not in your presence? MAXINE CARR not in my presence. MR LATHAM Ian never suggested to you during that fortnight that he told his parents, did he? MAXINE CARR no, he didn't. MR LATHAM that came as a complete shock to Mrs Nixon, didn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM when you told her that in that call. upset you may have been, you knew precisely what you were talking about in that sequence that I have just played to you, didn't you? MAXINE CARR not about the lying, no, sir. MR LATHAM he turned up? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you noticed when the boot was opened that there was a new piece of carpet in the boot, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM where did Sadie travel in the car when she was on those infrequent occasions that she did travel in the car? MAXINE CARR she would be in the boot, or if she wasn't in the boot she would be on the back seat. MR LATHAM so as soon as the boot lid was opened you realised the car had changed since you had seen it when you were driven over to Littleport by him on the previous Saturday? MAXINE CARR I could see it had been cleaned, yes. MR LATHAM the car had obviously been cleaned, hadn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM inside and out? MAXINE CARR I don't really know about the outside but the inside looked different. MR LATHAM there was a new carpet in the boot? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM this was in the context of what you had been told by that Tuesday morning, by Ian about what had been going on back in Soham, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR LATHAM think about it. you had been told about the girls missing, you know how serious it is, yes? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you know the girls have actually been into your house? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and where else they had been in the house, and he is telling you that he may be the last person to have seen them? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM now here is the motor car and it is obvious to you it has been cleaned up and it has even got a new boot carpet in it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM that's what upset you, isn't it? MAXINE CARR no, sir, it wasn't. MR LATHAM because you put the condition you now found the car in, in the context of what he had told you on the Monday, on the telephone, didn't you? MAXINE CARR he hadn't told me anything on the Monday, apart from the girls going missing. MR LATHAM the girls ---- MR HUBBARD my Lord, she ought to be allowed to finish. MR LATHAM I'm sorry, you finish what you want to say, Miss Carr? MAXINE CARR All he told me on the Monday was about the girls and the nosebleed and they had left the house and gone over the bridge and that they were okay. that's all he said. MR LATHAM I have just been through all this, we'll look in a bit more detail later, but it is not just the nosebleed, it is bedroom, bathroom, and bleeding in your home, isn't it? MAXINE CARR to which he had answers to. MR LATHAM yes. now you have seen his motor car, haven't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM this was a man who you knew had been exceptionally busy, hadn't he? MAXINE CARR in what respect? MR LATHAM he had been up all night, he told you, helping the police? MAXINE CARR Yes, that's what he said. MR LATHAM and he would have been exhausted on the Monday - he told you he was tired, didn't he? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM yet somehow he had time to clean the car up? MAXINE CARR he could have done that on the Saturday, I don't know when he did it. MR LATHAM then you picked up the hitchhiker? MR JUSTICE MOSES before we leave the witness just said - I don't know if you want to ask her whether she asked (inaudible). MR LATHAM I was going to come to the carpet later. I'm just looking at things in broad outline. when you got in the car and set off and you stopped, or he stopped, for the hitchhiker? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM it wasn't long before the topic of conversation had centred on your reason for going back to Soham, namely the girls. that's right isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and that was something which was central in your mind and it was obviously central in his mind, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM it was the cause of your cutting short your visit to Grimsby? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and the conversation that took place with the hitchhiker was a three-way conversation, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you had been watching Teletext and the news by the time we get to Tuesday morning, hadn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, I had, yes. MR LATHAM and you knew by the Tuesday morning, because it was headline news, that a woman was reporting having seen the girls at the side of the A10 on the Monday morning? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew that Ian Huntley was saying to you, as you tell us, that the girls had left his care sometime around half past 6, give or take a few minutes either way. That they were perfectly all right and they wandered off up College Road? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM it must have been a huge relief to you to watch on the news and to read on the Teletext that the girls were still alive on the Monday morning? MAXINE CARR on the Monday morning? MR LATHAM yes, because a woman had seen them or was purporting to have seen them? MAXINE CARR on the Monday morning, didn't even know it was Holly and Jessica on the Monday morning. MR LATHAM you knew two girls wearing Manchester United shirts had been seen allegedly by a woman on the Monday morning. You knew that, didn't you? It was all over the television, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR I don't know if it was the Monday morning, but I did see there was a lady had seen two children, yes. MR LATHAM which must have been a huge relief to you? MAXINE CARR it was, and it was also a concern because I didn't think that those children were capable of running away from their families. MR LATHAM that meant your Ian was right out of the picture, didn't it? MAXINE CARR he ----. MR LATHAM you knew they were still alive on Monday morning, that's hours and hours after Ian had been involve with them? MAXINE CARR but he didn't think they were reliable. MR LATHAM that's precisely it. After Ian's "I was the last person to have seen them before that woman 'supposedly' saw them", that's what he said? MAXINE CARR I don't know. MR LATHAM you heard, this was a conversation you were taking part in and were interested in, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes I spent a lot of time looking out of the window, I wasn't really listening to every word. MR LATHAM he was talking to you more than he was talking to Ian, the hitchhiker? MAXINE CARR I wasn't particularly listening to every word though so if he did say "supposedly" then that's what he said. MR LATHAM that must have been a huge shock to you that Ian was saying something like that, "supposedly saw them"? MAXINE CARR<