04/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Thursday, 04 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01
02
MR JUSTICE MOSES
just while the defendant is going into the witness box,
I have had a question which I understand counsel have
seen.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
no doubt it can be answered.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, it can, some of the evidence has been given.
we can no doubt sort out the remainder. It would be best,
I think, if possible, to do it by agreement.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
it certainly doesn't affect this witness at the moment.
right, yes, Mr Coward?
MAXINE CARR
(Re-examined)
MR COWARD
Miss Carr, you believed what Mr Huntley suggested to you
both over the telephone and face to face; that he was
nothing to do with the disappearance of the girls?
MAXINE CARR
that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
for that reason, the only lie that it was necessary for
you to tell, if anyone asked you questions about the 4th
August, was the lie putting you at Soham rather than in
Grimsby?
MAXINE CARR
yes, that's correct.
MR COWARD
so when the police were asking you to give an account
of the whole history, that was the only area that you
had to be careful about to suppress, the fact you were
in Grimsby, to put forward the fact you were in Soham?
MAXINE CARR
yes, that's right.
MR COWARD
because as you thought at the time, there was nothing
about the house, number 5 College Close, that was significant
at all, was there?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
there was nothing about the car, the Fiesta, that was
significant at all, was there?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
so on those topics, the house and the car, you felt free
to tell it as it was?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and when the police interviewed you on tape you did tell
is as it was, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
are you conscious that what you have told the Jury now
is in some respects different from what you told the police
on tape?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
I will speak about it generally for the moment and look
at it in detail in due course. what has caused you to
say things now in evidence which are different from what
you told the police?
MAXINE CARR
when I was being interviewed by the police, they were
trying to say that my partner, the man I loved, that's
a murderer. They were also trying to say that I was a
murderer. They were trying to get every bit of information
they could out of me that was bad against Ian, even going
into behaviour towards me. I was not going to add anything
bad to them. that's why a lot of the time I tried to make
it look better for Ian.
MR COWARD
but that's I why asked you the questions that I started
with. with your belief that Ian was innocent, there was
nothing bad about number 5 was there?
MAXINE CARR
there was nothing bad about the house, no.
MR COWARD
there was nothing bad about the car, was there?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
could you be provided with the green folder, your interviews,
beginning on 17th August?
MAXINE CARR
whereabouts does that start please?
MR COWARD
if you go through the bundle you will come to to a section.
I hope it is section 6, it is in mine. After a few introductory
pages you come to record of interview?
MAXINE CARR
okay.
MR COWARD
there are a few introductory pages, skip over those and
we get record of interview?
MAXINE CARR
okay.
MR COWARD
if you turn to the third page of it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
about half-way down the page you say "and I'm sorry
if I have wasted time, and all that. I wanted to tell
you yesterday and I told about Ian. What happened to Ian
before and everything, and he just doesn't do anything
like that. I mean he rang me on the Monday, he told me
he had been out all night searching with these policemen;
he rang me all weekend because I have an eating disorder
and he rings up to make sure I eat when I'm not around.
He rang me on the Monday and said he had been searching,
then in the afternoon I was at my grandad's with my uncle
and aunty and he rang up and told me the names of the
girls that had gone missing". Pausing there for a
moment the girls, when they spoke to Mr Huntley, according
to Mr Huntley were disappointed that you were not there
and said "would you tell Miss Carr that we are sorry
she didn't get the job".?
MAXINE CARR
words to that effect, yes.
MR COWARD
and told Mr Huntley their names, that they were Holly
and Jessica?
MAXINE CARR
that's not what Mr Huntley told me.
MR COWARD
if he is right, that the girls did give him their names,
can you think of any reason why he shouldn't pass it on,
tell you at 6.56 in the morning when he first spoke to
you?
MAXINE CARR
according to Ian, later on in the day when he told me
the names, he told me he didn't tell me in the morning
because he didn't want to upset me.
MR COWARD
have you ever said that before or is that the first time
you ever said that?
MAXINE CARR
I said that in my proof of evidence and to my legal team,
yes.
MR COWARD
I see. right at the bottom of the page, when did you decide
to tell a lie? "the first day he rang me on the Monday
and he was in absolute tears", you rather give the
impression that it was on the Monday that you decided
you would lie, but I think on reflection?
MAXINE CARR
it was the Tuesday.
MR COWARD
and my client agrees with you that it was on the Tuesday
that there was such a discussion. could you turn, please,
to page 82?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
at the bottom of page 82 you are talking about keys to
fit the hangar. If you turn to 83, by the bottom punch
hole, "okay, all right, I might have already asked
this", the officer is saying, "forgive me if
I have. was there anything that you noticed different
about the house when you got - apart from the state of
it obviously, yes, with him not having cleaned up anything
- anything different you noticed about the house?"
"that wasn't before I went away", you said.
"that wasn't before you went away, yes". "anything
new when you came back? anything new in the house that
Ian has brought apart from the beer and crisps you mentioned?"
answer "No." according to you now in this court
there was something different wasn't there, unusual?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
what was it?
MAXINE CARR
the duvet in the washing machine.
MR COWARD
wasn't this, on page 83, a perfect opportunity, if the
duvet was in the washing machine, for you to say so to
the police?
MAXINE CARR
sir, the duvet was in the washing machine when I got back,
but I was under a lot of pressure when I was giving the
interviews, I was being blamed for the murder of two children
that I thought a lot of, and my boyfriend was being accused
of those murders and lots of thing were going around in
my head, little nitty things were not.
MR COWARD
the picture you paint of Ian Huntley in the household
is as a slob isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
He washed up twice in his life with you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and you come home, according to you, and he has managed
to work out how to use the washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
yes, but he also said in interview that he managed to
hoover the house and he had never used the hoover before
in his life.
MR COWARD
this was startling, wasn't it , if what you are saying
is right, that you get home and Wonderman has managed
to put the duvet in the washing machine, you never thought
to mention it?
MAXINE CARR
there was more important things to think about like the
two children going missing.
MR COWARD
here the officer says to you "anything new when you
came back", was there anything that you noticed,
different about the house when you got back? You were
given a clear opportunity to say he had got the duvet
in the washing machine, he had got the cover for the duvet
in the washing machine, and you think he had got the bath
mat?
MAXINE CARR
I think, yes.
MR COWARD
none of that mentioned at this stage?
MAXINE CARR
no, as I say, I had just been arrested for murder, and
I was asked questions, I was in a hell of a state and
before I - I didn't have any chance to speak to my legal
representatives, it was all coming out in the flow, so
I'm sorry, I forgot about those things but I remembered
it since and it has been written down by my legal team,
and that was last year.
MR COWARD
I'm not suggesting for one moment, Miss Carr, that you
invented it as you stood there in the witness box, but
what I am saying to you is that at some stage you have
decided to change your story, to add a few bits?
MAXINE CARR
No, only- sir, this is not (inaudible) story, they were
asking me questions and I was answering them (inaudible)
desperate state.
MR COWARD
in this interview you said you washed the duvet covers
every week?
MAXINE CARR
I changed the sheets, yes.
MR COWARD
Put one in the wash and put a clean one on?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
did you put the duvet in as well?
MAXINE CARR
I have never washed that duvet before in my life.
MR COWARD
have you ever tried to get it in your washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
I never tried to get it into the washing machine because
I have never washed it.
MR COWARD
it is a double duvet?
MAXINE CARR
yes, it is.
MR COWARD
according to you, this duvet, plus cover and you think
a bath mat as well?
MAXINE CARR
I can't be sure about the bath mat. I believe it was in
there, but I know the duvet and duvet cover were in there.
MR COWARD
what makes you believe the bath mat was in there if you
can't be sure?
MAXINE CARR
I can't be sure, all I know it was not in the bathroom
when I was up there. I know it was on that line at some
point over these two weeks. I can't remember if it was
in there at the time, but the duvet and the cover was.
MR COWARD
say that again- "I know at sometime it was on the
line..."?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
when?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
at some point in the two weeks?
MAXINE CARR
some point in the two week period.
MR COWARD
and because it was on the line at some point in the two
week period, you think that that helps you to come to
the conclusion it was in the washing machine with the
duvet and the cover?
MAXINE CARR
I believe it may not have been there. It may have - I'm
not saying it was.
MR COWARD
the way you said it yesterday was "I think the bath
mat"?
MAXINE CARR
I think the bath mat.
MR COWARD
when you gave your evidence, you told the Members of the
Jury when Mr Huntley arrived in Grimsby (inaudible) the
boot of the Fiesta was opened?
MAXINE CARR
no, that was when we were leaving, the boot of the car
was opened.
MR COWARD
you noticed it was clean inside?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and you noticed something about the carpet?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
tell us again what you now say about the carpet in the
boot?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't the same carpet that had been in there originally.
MR COWARD
when do you say it had been changed?
MAXINE CARR
I believe it had been changed while I had been away. I
cannot recall that carpet being in there because the factory-fitted
carpet used to cover the whole entirety of the boot -
this did not.
MR COWARD
when Mr Huntley gave evidence to the jury he talked about
that carpet, didn't he?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
in answer to questions from me he said it was some months
before that he had cut out a piece of the carpet to fit
it because it was dirty and smelly?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
do you remember any questions being asked (on your behalf)
of Mr Huntley to suggest that that was wrong?
MAXINE CARR
on my behalf?
MR COWARD
on your behalf?
MAXINE CARR
all I know is what Ian told me was that he had to clean
the car because he had had Sadie in it.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
no, no.
MAXINE CARR
sorry?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you must listen to Mr Coward's questions.
MR COWARD
do you have any recollection, after I sat down, of counsel
(on your behalf) asking Mr Huntley any questions to suggest
that changing the carpet some months before was wrong?
MAXINE CARR
no, I don't.
MR COWARD
is that because this a relatively recent addition to your
account?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, it has been in my proof of evidence for a while.
MR COWARD
who do you say first raised the question; I (inaudible)
call it an alibi - strictly it is not but a form of short
- and who first raised the idea of you providing an alibi?
MAXINE CARR
your client, Mr Huntley.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
strictly speaking of course I was wrong to describe it
as an alibi because it is saying because I wasn't in the
house I was not where ever the girls were murdered - if
they were murdered. we may have to think about it. It
matters. saying, "It can't have been me because I
wasn't in the house." sorry.
MR COWARD
the note I have of yesterday, he said, "just tell
anyone who asks you were here."
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and you are clear in your mind, are you, that that is
how it went?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
that was something that you could be mistaken about as
to who raised it?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
no? well, let's just test that proposition by looking
at what you had to say to the police in the interview
in relation to this topic. could you look, please, at
page 88? half-way down the page you are saying "because
he wouldn't do anything like that, he wouldn't hurt anybody".
How do you know that? and you say "I know him inside
out". Turn on to 89. about 8 lines up "but no,
I wouldn't protect him and he wouldn't expect me to protect
him from anything like that. all he has ever told me to
do was to tell you the truth, which is why I have changed
my statement and I have told you the truth. If he didn't
want me to tell you the truth he would have pleaded and
pleaded. he would have asked me to lie for him but he
didn't"?
MAXINE CARR
where is that, please? its not in mine.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
page 89 at the bottom?
MAXINE CARR
I'm on 89 now. okay, yes.
MR COWARD
it is my fault. the bottom 7 or 8 lines "all he has
ever told me to do is to tell you the truth, which is
why I have changed my statement and I have told you the
truth. if he didn't want me to tell you the truth, he
would have pleaded and pleaded. He would have asked me
to lie for him. but he didn't. He is very open about everything
he has done, open about how he has helped and everything
and that's it and to have done something like that...".
Then you go on to deal with other aspects of the matter.
the bottom punch hole you say this "I'm not lying
about it, I have told you the truth now." ...about
everything, about all my whereabouts,. Ian never asked
me to lie about anything. I did it because I couldn't
see him go through it. I couldn't see his mother go through
it. that's the only reason why I told him that I was here.
Perhaps he didn't ask, perhaps he suggested to you? He
didn't suggest anything to me. Officer I want you to be
very certain about what you are saying, did Ian ask you
to suggest to the police or him to you in any way? no."
when did Ian get to find out what you had actually put
in your statement? That's the written statement where
you went into another room to give it, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
no, it's not, that's what I told the police (inaudible)
when I was in the hotel - you may be at cross purposes.
MR COWARD
turn to the next page, 91 "Ian said that you have
lied to them now, what are you going to do now? that was
basically his reaction. You shouldn't have done that.
That's a reference back to the time the two police officers
came to your house, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
the first time I had to say that I was in the house, in
the bathroom, was when I spoke to the police, the bobby
on the beat who came round to get statements.
MR COWARD
when the two police officers came to the house and you
went into the dining room, you said in that statement,
didn't you, you were at Soham?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir, and can I say how that statement came about
- am I allowed to do that?
MR COWARD
when the police officers had gone, Mr Huntley asked you
what you told the policeman and you said you told them
the lie, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
that's what you are talking about here, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
am I not allowed to say how that lie came about? I just
asked you that question? you had a statement from the
two police officers that came into our home, a young lady,
and she said, when she came to the house, she asked me
if I had made a statement and I said I had because I thought
I had, and I thought the policeman on the beat was a statement.
Mr Huntley said, no, you have not made a statement, you
are going to have to make one. And he said that in this
witness box. I was pushed into a corner, sir - yes, I
did lie, but I was pushed into a corner to do it.
MR COWARD
are you saying by that that Mr Huntley pushed you into
the corner to lie - or the police?
MAXINE CARR
Mr Huntley put me into a position where I could not do
anything but do that.
MR COWARD
how?
MAXINE CARR
because he was stood there, he was telling the police
officer I had to make a statement, the police officer
was looking at me as if to say "Are you going to
make a statement?" I could hardly say "No, I'm
not, I have been lying."
MR COWARD
was there anything to stop you from going into the other
room with the police officer and giving the statement
saying "I was in Grimsby"?
MAXINE CARR
I couldn't do that sir because if I had, I would have
come out and Ian would have been arrested and I would
have been arrested probably as well but I wasn't the issue
in all this.
MR COWARD
so you decided, you, Maxine Carr, decided you were going
to tell the lie?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir.
MR COWARD
and you did?
MAXINE CARR
I had no choice.
MR COWARD
and when the police officers had left, Mr Huntley said
to you "What have you told them"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and you told him you had told a lie?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and what was his reaction?
MAXINE CARR
he told me that they wouldn't believe that I had been
in the bath for an hour. He then said they were going
to come back. They were going to come back because I had
cocked the story up. He then said he would have to write
it down and remember it, that's when the note was written
on the Saturday.
MR COWARD
I want to see what you say on page 91. Ian said that "You
have told them now, what are you going to do now"?
That was basically his reaction "you shouldn't have
done that"? what do you say to that?
MAXINE CARR
he also goes on to say "You are just going to mess
it all up".
MR COWARD
let's come to come that in due course, could you answer
my question now why are you saying here, his reaction
was "You shouldn't have done that"?
MAXINE CARR
he said to me you shouldn't have done that, but he wanted
me to do that.
MR COWARD
a few moments ago you were saying to the Jury that you
felt that he pushed you into a corner?
MAXINE CARR
he did push me into a corner.
MR COWARD
and you are now saying he said "You shouldn't have
done that"?
MAXINE CARR
he did say that.
MR COWARD
which version are we to accept, Miss Carr?
MAXINE CARR
that is what he said.
MR COWARD
let's read on. Officer "did he say why you shouldn't
have done that"? answer 'Because they are going to
find out, because you were not, like, you were not where
you say you are, and stuff like that. you are just going
to mess it all up'. He suggested that I just told you
the truth. Even then I just couldn't, it was just seeing
him at the Holiday Inn when he was telling me, 'Tell them
the truth', so I came in and told you". You are distinguishing
here, aren't you, between a conversation after the two
police officers had been to the house and a later conversation
at the Holiday Inn?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
the meaning is clear, you are saying that he was unhappy
that you told the lie in the witness statement, wasn't
he?
MAXINE CARR
he was unhappy, but he didn't stop me from doing it .
MR COWARD
if he was pressing you to do it, why was he unhappy?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know.
MR COWARD
I suggest, Miss Carr, a simple truth that what the Members
of the Jury have here is the truth?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR COWARD
how it came about?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR COWARD
you were anxious to help?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir. I was trying to make Ian look better than he
actually is. You have no idea about the relationship I
have with Mr Huntley.
MR COWARD
what was the purpose of that remark?
MAXINE CARR
Nothing, I'm just trying to make it clear that you do
not know the kind of person Ian Huntley is towards me.
MR COWARD
to your right- at the end of the interviews with the police?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir, I think so.
MR COWARD
they were telling you what they found weren't they? fingerprints
on a bin background, a bin bag in a bin with the girls'
Manchester United shirts in it?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
and they were giving you a hard time, weren't they?
MAXINE CARR
yes, they were.
MR COWARD
and you did not give an inch, did you?
MAXINE CARR
about Ian killing children?
MR COWARD
about anything?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
you didn't crack, did you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
you were able to hold your own with a couple of experienced
police officers giving you a hard time?
MAXINE CARR
because I knew that Ian Huntley hadn't killed those kids,
deep down inside.
MR COWARD
and because you have got a mind of your own, haven't you?
MAXINE CARR
I have a mind of my own now. I have had for 16 months
anyway.
MR COWARD
this interview with the police wasn't 16 months ago, it
was in August?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
you had a mind of your own then, it proves it?
MAXINE CARR
it obviously proves I didn't know what I was doing because
I was saying that this man hadn't killed those children.
MR COWARD
can I try and get out of you exactly what you are saying.
Are you saying that somehow you were pressured into putting
forward the alibi because he overcame your will?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, he had a very controlling attitude towards me.
MR COWARD
when the police asked you about that in these interviews,
what did you say to them?
MAXINE CARR
I told them I wasn't being controlled by anybody, I had
no violence against me.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
sorry didn't hear the last bit?
MAXINE CARR
that there was no violence against me, yet again to cover
for Ian, to make him look a better person.
MR COWARD
will you turn on, please, to page 112. .
MR COWARD
you were asked what actions you took after you got back
from Grimsby and, near the top punch hole, you say "did
all my washing from, like, being away, and Ian's washing,
tidied all, tidied all up". At the time you were
actually thinking of doing that action did it cross your
mind then to say, and I had to take a duvet and a duvet
cover and I think a bath mat out?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, it never crossed my mind.
MR COWARD
is that because there wasn't a duvet and----?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, the duvet was in that washing machine.
MR COWARD
turn to 119, the top punch hole. "what do you think
about Ian? what do I think about Ian? yes. in relation
to what? well, the reason you were saying that untruth
to the policeman? answer Nothing, he didn't make me do
it. sorry? he hasn't made me do it. he hasn't made you
do it? no, so I can't say I hate you because you made
me lie to somebody. do you hate him now because he has
made you lie to somebody? no, he hasn't made me lie to
anybody. you have done it of your own ----? I have done
it of my own accord"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I'm quite aware I said that to the police officers
to make Ian look better.
MR COWARD
sorry - to make it look better?
MAXINE CARR
to make Ian look better. I'm hardly going to tell him
he is an abusive person who controls you.
MR COWARD
why not, if it is the truth?
MAXINE CARR
because I was scared. I was going home to that man at
the end of the day.
MR COWARD
I see. turn to page 156 in that regard, would you? the
top punch hole "have you ever been a victim of some
sort of abuse by Ian? no, I haven't been a victim of any
bloody abuse by any bugger. well, you don't want to believe
anything bad of Ian? but there ain't anything bad of Ian,
that's why. officer except his fingerprints are on that
bag with the clothing of two dead girls. what sort of
hold----? Your answer Are the finger-prints on the clothes.
who had access to those bags. question What sort of hold
has he got over you, Maxine? answer He ain't got any flaming
hold over me. God you, you people, just push and push
and push". It is crystal clear what you are saying,
it is crystal clear as well, I suggest, the mood that
you are in in answer that question?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, I was not going to make Ian look any worse than
they were saying he was.
MR COWARD
I suggest you are just making it up?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, it is very embarrassing to be in a relationship
like this.
MR COWARD
you are making out Ian to be some sort of domestic bad
man?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR COWARD
when in fact it is not true and wasn't true, Miss Carr?
MAXINE CARR
it is very very very true.
MR COWARD
so is all this a clever play by you with the police officers
to try to paint one picture to help the man who is abusive
towards you, instead of telling the truth?
MAXINE CARR
I loved that man, no matter what he did to me, I loved
him.
MR COWARD
in your evidence yesterday, you said that you "...would
do anything by way of telling lies to help Ian, because
you were worried he would lose his job if Mrs Bryden found
out two girls had been in the house. She would have been
down on him like a tonne of bricks and he would have lost
the job"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
feel free to check, Miss Carr, if you like, but I suggest
there is not one single mention - I suggest there is not
one single mention about lying so that Ian could keep
his job in the whole 166 pages of these interviews?
MAXINE CARR
because the stage had changed there, sir. initially when
I gave my lies, that was the reason those children walked
away from my house. now they are saying Ian has been accused
of murder and they are trying to look into his rape allegation.
MR COWARD
could I gently suggest an alternative explanation? if
you accept in the face of the Jury that the reason you
lied was not about school, but was to put the police off
the scent?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR COWARD
you have not an answer to the charge of conspiring to
pervert the course of justice, have you?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't to put the police of the scent. Initially I
did not want to speak to the police. Ian told me it was
just to cover him from people in Soham.
MR COWARD
your thinking was, was it, that this was why you were
going lie so he didn't lose his job?
MAXINE CARR
No. Initially I believe it, there would be nosy neighbours
looking saying there was young children going into the
house when he was on his own and that rumour would get
back. the rape allegation bothered me, 'course it did.
It is not a nice thing to have over you at the end of
the day, but the initial reason was that because at the
end of the day those children walked away and they were
happy. that's what he said.
MR COWARD
so, at the time you gave that witness statement which
said that you were in Soham when you were in Grimsby,
do you accept it was designed to put the police off the
scent in their investigation?
MAXINE CARR
in their investigation about finding the children or in
their investigation about wasting time by looking at somebody
who hadn't done anything?
MR COWARD
either?
MAXINE CARR
the latter.
MR COWARD
so you do accept?
MAXINE CARR
I do accept it.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
accept what?
MAXINE CARR
I accept the reason why I lied is not to stop from them
finding the person that took Holly and Jessica but to
stop them wasting their time on somebody because he had
been accused of rape before.
MR COWARD
I want to explore that a bit more. I'm not confident I
understand it. the police want to find out who has taken
the girls?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
they are either still alive or already dead. somebody
has taken the girls. One of the possible people who could
have taken the girls is Ian Huntley?
MAXINE CARR
not at that time in my mind, no.
MR COWARD
in the sense that he did speak to them on the night in
question?
MAXINE CARR
yes, he did speak to them. or he said he spoke to them,
I don't know.
MR COWARD
you in fact knew at the time you gave that statement that
the girls had actually been inside the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and you knew one of them had had a nosebleed?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
and you believed that, because of Ian's rape allegation,
as soon as news of that got to Cambridgeshire he would
become suspect and he would go to pieces----
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
----as he had over the rape allegation? have I got that
right?
MAXINE CARR
yes, but the reason was more reinforced because his family
came round to the house that week, his mother and his
father in our home, and his father reinforced it by saying
that Ian would lose his job if the school found out about
the rape allegation. It was a whole collection of pressure
at end of the day, sir.
MR COWARD
at the time you gave that witness statement to the police,
one of the purposes was to put the police off enquiring
into Ian, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
enquiring into his past, yes.
MR COWARD
did it occur to you at the time that if you and Ian agreed
to put that false story forward you were diverting true
justice?
MAXINE CARR
no, I don't - I didn't believe I was diverting true justice.
I believed the man who had taken these children was still
out there roaming around; he was not the man sitting in
the living room with me.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
would you like to ask the question, omitting the word
"true" do you not accept you were diverting
justice?
MR COWARD
do you not accept that in doing what you did you were
diverting justice?
MAXINE CARR
I wouldn't call it diverting justice, I know I did wrong
by lying, but I wasn't diverting justice because I believed
the real person was still out there.
MR COWARD
during the course of your evidence you said to the members
of the jury that you told Ian Huntley you should go and
tell the police about Grimsby?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
if you come out with it, that will look better?
MAXINE CARR
mean about the rape allegation?
MR COWARD
yes?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
it will look better, it will be better?
MAXINE CARR
than them finding out.
MR COWARD
than finding out for themselves. again, Miss Carr, I suggest
to you that that does not appear anywhere in 166 pages
of taped interview. Can you throw any light on that?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know. I can't say why it is not in that statement.
I was answering questions as I was asked them.
MR COWARD
or is it a bit of an addition by you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR COWARD
to ----?
MAXINE CARR
it has been in my proof of evidence for a long while.
MR COWARD
to make your position look in rather better light?
MAXINE CARR
I don't need mine putting in better light, I know exactly
what I have done, sir. I have come in this witness box
to say what I have done and I'm not going to be blamed
for what that thing in that box has done to me or those
children.
MR COWARD
you also said during the course of your evidence "I
have never heard before what I have heard in the last
few days"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
you mean the evidence that Mr Huntley gave in court, don't
you?
MAXINE CARR
what, in this witness statement or what I have heard in
here?
MR COWARD
no I'm quoting you "I have never heard before what
I have heard in the last few days". what were you
referring to?
MAXINE CARR
the evidence Mr Huntley gave.
MR COWARD
the evidence that Mr Huntley gave?
MAXINE CARR
that the children died, he killed those children.
MR COWARD
on 29th October, Miss Carr, before this trial started?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
were you in court, in the dock, with Mr Huntley when I
went through a series of matters that were not in issue?
let me remind you of them. "number 1, the deceased
girls came into number 5 College Close on 4th August.
2 the deceased died upstairs at number 5. 3, the death
of Holly Wells occurred in the bathroom and was accidental.
4 the death of Jessica Chapman occurred, after the incident
involving Holy Wells, in the bathroom on the threshold
between the bathroom and the landing. 5, he laid hands
on Jessica Chapman to stop her from continuing to scream,
over what had happened to Holly. 6, he is unsure where
- her head or neck or face - he placed his hand or hands.
7, he at no stage intended to cause Jessica Chapman grievous
bodily harm or to kill her. 8, he took the deceased in
the Ford Fiesta to the deposition site. 9, he deposited
the deceased at the deposition site. 10, he cut off their
clothing at the deposition site, 11, he attempted to set
fire to their bodies. 12, he attempted to burn the deceased's
clothing in the bin outside the door of the hangar. 13,
thereafter, he placed the bin inside the hangar. 14, Huntley
has no memory of Jessica Chapman having her mobile telephone
with her. 15, Huntley accepts he changed the tyres of
the Ford Fiesta, avers that changes were unconnected with
the events that ensue. 16, Huntley denies having deposited
the bodies, he even returned to the deposition site."
you were sitting in that dock----
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR COWARD
----when I read those out?
MAXINE CARR
but I had not heard Ian Huntley's version of it, had I?
MR COWARD
what did you mean by saying to the jury I have never heard
before what I have heard in the last few days?
MAXINE CARR
I mean the version that Ian Huntley gave in this witness
box of what he said happened, that's it - or the details.
You didn't state all the details. You stated what happened,
but you didn't state the whole thing.
MR COWARD
forgive me, Miss Carr, before this trial started you knew,
because you were sitting there when I said it to my Lord,
that those matters that I have listed, the majority of
them, were not in issue in the case, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, but I didn't - this man standing in the dock in the----
MR HUBBARD
they were not purposely elevated into admissions the Crown
never relied upon them.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
they couldn't because they weren't admissions.
MR HUBBARD
exactly.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I'm not sure there is really a great dispute between you.
I'm not sure how much you want to - at any view you knew
he was not going to suggest it was somebody else, so that
the earlier intention "It wasn't me, it was someone
else", had gone. obviously the impact of hearing
somebody going into the witness box and saying what you
are claiming he said would be different - I can't understand
that. I don't know how much you want to pursue this?
MR COWARD
my Lord the jury are aware of what the difference is.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
certainly fair to make the point that certainly this witness
would have been well aware that Ian Huntley was not going
to blame anybody else for those events. yes, go on.
MR COWARD
two final matters, Miss Carr. I suggest to you that there
were no clothes in the washing machine when you got home
from Grimsby?
MAXINE CARR
there weren't any clothes, sir, it was the duvet and the
duvet cover.
MR COWARD
that is an addition by you I suggest to you that you were
aware the carpet in the boot of the Fiesta had been changed
some months, May or June, and not over the week that you
were away in Grimsby?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR COWARD
thank you very much.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I'm going to rise for a few minutes.
Hearing
adjourned - will resume shortly
MR LATHAM
Tuesday morning, the 6th. You were awake a deal earlier
than you have been on the Monday morning weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were expecting Ian to come up and collect you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and, indeed, at 10.32 that morning you were using your
mother's telephone to find out where he was and what time
he was going to be in Grimsby?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
let's just look at what you knew and what you expected
as you sat looking through the front window waiting for
Ian to turn up. You were aware that two girls were missing
from Soham, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew their names?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew them as individuals, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
indeed, you were not only fond of them but you had the
opportunity to assess their characters?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew the sort of homes they came from, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew because, with your ability to assess the position
as an intelligent and sensible individual, that this was
desperately desperately serious, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
this wasn't a prank, was it?
MAXINE CARR
I wouldn't have thought so, no.
MR LATHAM
24 hours or so earlier, Ian Huntley had told you that
he had spoken to them, hadn't he?
MAXINE CARR
24 hours earlier than that morning?
MR LATHAM
yes?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't know until it was, until the afternoon of
the Monday.
MR LATHAM
he told you first thing on the Monday morning that he
had been out searching for two girls and during the course
of Monday he told you that he had spoken to the two missing
girls, hadn't he?
MAXINE CARR
in the morning he didn't tell me what kind of children
they were, if they were girls, boys, he just said he was
looking for some missing kids.
MR LATHAM
you understand I'm looking at you, Maxine Carr 10.30 in
the morning on Tuesday, all right?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
during the course of the Monday he told you he had spoken
to the two missing girls?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, at grandad's yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew by that Tuesday morning that he was saying
that it could be that he was the last person to have seen
them?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew the two girls had been to your home, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I had.
MR LATHAM
you knew they had been upstairs?
MAXINE CARR
yes, to the bathroom, yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew they had been into your bedroom - or at least
one of them had?
MAXINE CARR
yes, the girl with the nosebleed, yes.
MR LATHAM
and sat on your bed?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew at least one of them had been in your bathroom?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you had been told that it was the dark-haired one who
was bleeding?
MAXINE CARR
yes, Jessica, yes.
MR LATHAM
at once you knew that was Jessica rather than Holly, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
he, you knew, wanted you back in Soham, didn't he?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
he wished I was at home, he seemed to find it hard to
cope, the police thought he was the last person to see
the girls is what you told us yesterday?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
there are not too many good options running through your
head?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
that was your state of mind on the Tuesday morning, wasn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew that he was driving 100 or so miles that
morning because you had agreed to come back to Soham,
hadn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you know now from the evidence that you have heard that
he had had the confidence to speak to a Police Constable
who had been to your home on the Monday about lunch time.
You know that now, don't you?
MAXINE CARR
I know that now, yes.
MR LATHAM
you know the allegation from the officers who went to
his home on the Monday and took his witness statement,
the allegation is that he had the confidence to be talking
"We did this, we did that..., Maxine is out having
an interview for a child minding job"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
then in the middle of the evening, you know the allegation
is that he said to another person, I must go, my Mrs has
got my supper or my tea ready and I'm hungry?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
the reason you were going back was that you had agreed
to provide him with what we have been calling an alibi?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, not at that time, no.
MR LATHAM
otherwise you were no use to him, were you?
MAXINE CARR
probably not, but no, the alibi wasn't agreed.
MR LATHAM
that's why he had the confidence to say what he was saying
to witnesses in Soham and why he was troubling to drive
all the way to Grimsby. You had indicated to him you would
provide him with an alibi, hadn't you?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
let's look at your first telephone conversation with his
mother. it is tab 8, the call on 18th October. You started
off with a short phone card and you had to get another
card and make another call?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
over the page to page 2, at the time five minutes and
18 seconds into the conversation, that's two thirds of
the way down the page "You know on the Sunday that
you spoke to him? yes. did you discuss lying and alibis?
no, not on the Sunday" - not on the Sunday, on the
Monday?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
"on the Monday, you
did that? yes." now that is what you said to Lynda
Nixon when you spoke to her on the telephone. You had
a huge amount of time to think about things by October
of last year?
MAXINE CARR
yes, when (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
she asked is it the Sunday and you said in terms no, no
it is the Monday. Did that----?
MAXINE CARR
sir, when I was on that phone I was very upset, I was
very worried about Ian and I wasn't really thinking about
the facts.
MR LATHAM
that's not right is it? you were certainly upset but it
is quite apparent from listening to you that you knew
what you were saying, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
I don't think I did know what I was saying.
MR LATHAM
let's look at what happened when you got a new phone card.
page 3, the number is redialled - at the first ring binder
- you see that the?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
over the page, page 4, almost as soon as you get through,
7 minutes 23 since the first call started, she is saying
to you "Something is very wrong, darling, we know
there is, but we don't know what, just don't know what.
you see that?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you say "something, something happened and I don't
know what has happened but" - she interrupts you
and says "you know he phoned you on the Monday----
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
----he said he discussed lying? yes. can you remember
what time that was". Pausing there, there is no confusion
here in what you now say, is there? "yes, it was
in the afternoon, it was 25 past 4", and you actually
identify the telephone call, don't you, the 25 past 4
Monday telephone call?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you go on to say where you were?
MAXINE CARR
yes, that was the first time----
MR LATHAM
"I was at my grandad's.
on the Monday? yes. he, that was when he wanted me to
come home. that's when he wanted you to come home? yes,
on the Monday afternoon? yes, he wanted me to come home
then. he said to me that these girls had been, right,
he said that there were some kids who had gone missing,
and I said oh yes, and he told me who they were and I
said, well, I knew who they were." That's when you
say he broke to you the news they had actually been in
the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you told her in terms the alibi and the discussion about
lying happened in that call and that's the truth, isn't
it it did?
MAXINE CARR
no, I remember it being on the Tuesday night that we discussed
the lying.
MR LATHAM
you may have discussed it again but he discussed it with
you on the Monday, didn't he?
MAXINE CARR
I knew he was upset on the Monday, that he was worried.
MR LATHAM
no, no, you knew he was upset. she asked you when you
discussed lying and alibis, and you said in terms, twice
in that conversation, split by the replacement phone card
the Monday, and you particularised where you were when
it happened and the time even when it happened?
MAXINE CARR
I'm sorry, sir, but it was on the Tuesday.
MR LATHAM
you say "sorry" - but what are you doing? Lying
to Lynda Nixon here?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
During what you thought was a private telephone conversation?
MAXINE CARR
I never thought about the telephone conversation at the
end of the day. I was very upset and all I wanted to know
what was going on with Ian, and she was asking me questions
and I was just talking.
MR LATHAM
Miss Carr, by the time of this telephone call you had
had interviews with the police and they had gone through
everything in great detail with you?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, I had also been in hospital as well before this phone
call.
MR LATHAM
I am not entitled to find out what you said to your legal
advisers but you have certainly had legal advice throughout
this period haven't you?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
when you had this call with Lynda Nixon it is not as if
you were being asked for the very first time about things,
is it?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
he discussed it with you on the Monday. you knew you were
going back to Soham to start lying, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir. I was going back not to lie.
MR LATHAM
you gave him confidence?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
you told him on the Monday you were prepared to lie for
him, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
because of course you spoke to him for the best part of
15 minutes on the Monday afternoon didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir, I believe so.
MR LATHAM
The chronology has the timing of those calls, page 8 of
our chronology?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
within minutes of those two calls in the late afternoon,
early evening, 15 minutes' worth of conversation we know
now he was out cleaning up the Fiesta?
MAXINE CARR
I know now he was cleaning up the Fiesta.
MR LATHAM
was that discussed?
MAXINE CARR
no, he didn't tell me what he was doing.
MR LATHAM
you spoke to him again - over the page, page 9 - for six
minutes at 20 to 11, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
that would have taken the call through to 22.47, wouldn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
three minutes or so later he is reporting to the special
constables that he has seen a man with a black bin bag
running across the fields, the sports fields. Did you
discuss that with him?
MAXINE CARR
no----
MR LATHAM
during the conversation that ended three minutes earlier?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, I didn't even know about that until I heard it.
MR LATHAM
were you cooking up stories with him during the Monday?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
well, on any view you knew he was asking you to come back.
Had he said anything about asking you to tell lies?
MAXINE CARR
on the Monday?
MR LATHAM
on the - at all?
MAXINE CARR
on the Monday?
MR LATHAM
On the Monday?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
so you just misled Lynda Nixon about that?
MAXINE CARR
I was very confused.
MR LATHAM
you weren't, with respect, the slightest bit confused
during that telephone conversation?
MAXINE CARR
I was, I was very anxious. We all heard the conversation
in this room.
MR LATHAM
perhaps we ought to hear it again since you describe how
anxious you were. I have got it at page 4 in the transcript.
look at the transcript, it is going to start at the top
of the page. have you got that?
MAXINE CARR
page 4 (tape played of the conversation).
MR LATHAM
pausing there, that was the first time Lynda Nixon had
ever been told, to your knowledge, that they had come
into the house, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
I believe so, yes.
MR LATHAM
but you told us this morning of certain pressures, which
you said were being put on you, not just by Ian Huntley
but by his family. They visited you during the fortnight?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
they were never told during those visits that the girls
had actually been in the house, were they?
MAXINE CARR
not by me no.
MR LATHAM
not in your presence?
MAXINE CARR
not in my presence.
MR LATHAM
Ian never suggested to you during that fortnight that
he told his parents, did he?
MAXINE CARR
no, he didn't.
MR LATHAM
that came as a complete shock to Mrs Nixon, didn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
when you told her that in that call. upset you may have
been, you knew precisely what you were talking about in
that sequence that I have just played to you, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
not about the lying, no, sir.
MR LATHAM
he turned up?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you noticed when the boot was opened that there was
a new piece of carpet in the boot, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did Sadie travel in the car when she was on those
infrequent occasions that she did travel in the car?
MAXINE CARR
she would be in the boot, or if she wasn't in the boot
she would be on the back seat.
MR LATHAM
so as soon as the boot lid was opened you realised the
car had changed since you had seen it when you were driven
over to Littleport by him on the previous Saturday?
MAXINE CARR
I could see it had been cleaned, yes.
MR LATHAM
the car had obviously been cleaned, hadn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
inside and out?
MAXINE CARR
I don't really know about the outside but the inside looked
different.
MR LATHAM
there was a new carpet in the boot?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
this was in the context of what you had been told by that
Tuesday morning, by Ian about what had been going on back
in Soham, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
think about it. you had been told about the girls missing,
you know how serious it is, yes?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you know the girls have actually been into your house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and where else they had been in the house, and he is telling
you that he may be the last person to have seen them?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
now here is the motor car and it is obvious to you it
has been cleaned up and it has even got a new boot carpet
in it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that's what upset you, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, it wasn't.
MR LATHAM
because you put the condition you now found the car in,
in the context of what he had told you on the Monday,
on the telephone, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
he hadn't told me anything on the Monday, apart from the
girls going missing.
MR LATHAM
the girls ----
MR HUBBARD
my Lord, she ought to be allowed to finish.
MR LATHAM
I'm sorry, you finish what you want to say, Miss Carr?
MAXINE CARR
All he told me on the Monday was about the girls and the
nosebleed and they had left the house and gone over the
bridge and that they were okay. that's all he said.
MR LATHAM
I have just been through all this, we'll look in a bit
more detail later, but it is not just the nosebleed, it
is bedroom, bathroom, and bleeding in your home, isn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
to which he had answers to.
MR LATHAM
yes. now you have seen his motor car, haven't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
this was a man who you knew had been exceptionally busy,
hadn't he?
MAXINE CARR
in what respect?
MR LATHAM
he had been up all night, he told you, helping the police?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, that's what he said.
MR LATHAM
and he would have been exhausted on the Monday - he told
you he was tired, didn't he?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
yet somehow he had time to clean the car up?
MAXINE CARR
he could have done that on the Saturday, I don't know
when he did it.
MR LATHAM
then you picked up the hitchhiker?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
before we leave the witness just said - I don't know if
you want to ask her whether she asked (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
I was going to come to the carpet later. I'm just looking
at things in broad outline. when you got in the car and
set off and you stopped, or he stopped, for the hitchhiker?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it wasn't long before the topic of conversation had centred
on your reason for going back to Soham, namely the girls.
that's right isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and that was something which was central in your mind
and it was obviously central in his mind, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it was the cause of your cutting short your visit to Grimsby?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the conversation that took place with the hitchhiker
was a three-way conversation, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you had been watching Teletext and the news by the
time we get to Tuesday morning, hadn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I had, yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew by the Tuesday morning, because it was headline
news, that a woman was reporting having seen the girls
at the side of the A10 on the Monday morning?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew that Ian Huntley was saying to you, as you tell
us, that the girls had left his care sometime around half
past 6, give or take a few minutes either way. That they
were perfectly all right and they wandered off up College
Road?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it must have been a huge relief to you to watch on the
news and to read on the Teletext that the girls were still
alive on the Monday morning?
MAXINE CARR
on the Monday morning?
MR LATHAM
yes, because a woman had seen them or was purporting to
have seen them?
MAXINE CARR
on the Monday morning, didn't even know it was Holly and
Jessica on the Monday morning.
MR LATHAM
you knew two girls wearing Manchester United shirts had
been seen allegedly by a woman on the Monday morning.
You knew that, didn't you? It was all over the television,
wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know if it was the Monday morning, but I did see
there was a lady had seen two children, yes.
MR LATHAM
which must have been a huge relief to you?
MAXINE CARR
it was, and it was also a concern because I didn't think
that those children were capable of running away from
their families.
MR LATHAM
that meant your Ian was right out of the picture, didn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
he ----.
MR LATHAM
you knew they were still alive on Monday morning, that's
hours and hours after Ian had been involve with them?
MAXINE CARR
but he didn't think they were reliable.
MR LATHAM
that's precisely it. After Ian's "I was the last
person to have seen them before that woman 'supposedly'
saw them", that's what he said?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know.
MR LATHAM
you heard, this was a conversation you were taking part
in and were interested in, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes I spent a lot of time looking out of the window, I
wasn't really listening to every word.
MR LATHAM
he was talking to you more than he was talking to Ian,
the hitchhiker?
MAXINE CARR
I wasn't particularly listening to every word though so
if he did say "supposedly" then that's what
he said.
MR LATHAM
that must have been a huge shock to you that Ian was saying
something like that, "supposedly saw them"?
MAXINE CARR
no, because when he had arrived at my mum's house we had
discussed these people that were probably unreliable,
because the girls wouldn't run away.
MR LATHAM
how could he say that witnesses were reliable or unreliable?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know, all he said, he was definite, the definite
person that had seen them and spoken to them.
MR LATHAM
wasn't that of itself worrying that he was able to, as
it were, throw doubt on the reliability of other civilian
witnesses that he had not met or spoken to?
MAXINE CARR
nothing was going through my mind apart from these children
had gone missing.
MR LATHAM
it was?
MAXINE CARR
no, it wasn't, sir.
MR LATHAM
you are not a stupid person, are you? you are an intelligent
person, Miss Carr?
MAXINE CARR
I would hope so.
MR LATHAM
as soon as you heard him say that, that must have rung
alarm bells in you?
MAXINE CARR
I don't recall hearing him say that, sir, I'm sorry.
MR LATHAM
you arrived back in Soham?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
out of the car you got and, walking from this car, which
had suddenly had a major clean-up and had a new carpet,
you walk into your home and what do you find?
MAXINE CARR
the-----
MR LATHAM
a smell of lemon?
MAXINE CARR
no. I didn't smell any lemon when I walked into my house.
MR LATHAM
unlike the sort of place you might expect, having left
it in Ian's tender care for three or four days, it was
all clean and tidy downstairs, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, it wasn't.
MR LATHAM
you heard the witnesses who described what it was like
when they went into it?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't what I would call clean and tidy, sir.
MR LATHAM
the kitchen you have told us was very tidy. It was tidy
apart from a few pots and things.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
apart from - sorry?
MAXINE CARR
pots.
MR LATHAM
It certainly wasn't a kitchen sink full of pots and pans
and plates and so on, such as you might have expected,
having left him on his own?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't.
MR LATHAM
something serious had happened in the dining room, hadn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
he had to go off to the school for a short while?
MAXINE CARR
yes, he went to tell Ruth and Michael that he had got
back?
MR LATHAM
he left you on your own?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
whilst you were in the kitchen you noticed some washing
on the line?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't, I noticed some washing in the machine.
MR LATHAM
you noticed there was some washing on the line later in
the day?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You told us you didn't put it there, did you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
in the several years you have been living with Ian Huntley
how many times had he done washing?
MAXINE CARR
I don't think he had ever done any washing.
MR LATHAM
right. then you noticed the washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
wet or dry?
MAXINE CARR
it was wet, too wet to be taken out.
MR LATHAM
so he had troubled to set the washing machine off?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and in it an entire duvet and the duvet cover?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
what was the first thing that went through your head?
MAXINE CARR
that he had had a woman in the house when I had been away.
MR LATHAM
sex?
MAXINE CARR
yes. with a woman, sir.
MR LATHAM
let's not puy too fine a point on it, Miss Carr. immediately
seeing his first ever, in your experience, attempt at
laundry, you thought sex?
MAXINE CARR
with an adult.
MR LATHAM
by thinking sex you were thinking he had laundered evidence
of sex from the bed clothes?
MAXINE CARR
the smell, perfume, something like that.
MR LATHAM
you thought he had done something unique in your experience,
and it was unique?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it was not something with your looking at in isolation?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
you were looking at it in the context of the motor car,
of the boot, of the knowledge that the two girls had been
in your home?
MAXINE CARR
no, no I hadn't, not, sorry not, I didn't know what you
meant. I wasn't thinking of the motor car and the duvet.
MR LATHAM
you do not look at something like that in isolation, Miss
Carr. You look at it in the context of everything that
you know, the desperate incident in Soham, he asked you
to come back, he is troubled, deeply troubled about something?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you know the girls had been in your house and one of them
has been on the very bed when the linen is now in the
washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you are saying that even though you immediately thought
sex, it never occurred to you that the washing could have
had something to do with the two girls?
MAXINE CARR
no. that's disgusting.
MR LATHAM
whether the bath mat was in the washing machine as well,
or it was on the washing line, the bath mat had been laundered
or washed as well?
MAXINE CARR
he did say he had Sadie in the bath and that's why the
bath was cracked.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that's the next question. the question you were asked
was bath mat?
MAXINE CARR
no, it wasn't.
MR LATHAM
it had been laundered?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it had been laundered one way or the other, it is either
on the washing line or the washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
all right you have told us Sadie had been in the bathroom?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you also knew that either a girl or the girls had been
in the bathroom didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you say, having thought for a moment that he might have
had a woman in the house, you had too many other thoughts
to really ever give that a further thought is that what
you are saying?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
then you went upstairs didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
and he had actually troubled to change the bedding?
MAXINE CARR
he put the old quilt, the winter quilt, on the bed with
a mismatched sheet on top of it.
MR LATHAM
you had been away since Saturday and this was Tuesday
afternoon?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
this was wholly exceptional behaviour on his part, wasn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
he would have had to have put a duvet on to sleep on something.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
ask the question again?
MAXINE CARR
it was yes, it was strange.
MR LATHAM
wholly exceptional behaviour Miss Carr. you have been
away three nights?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
there he was telling you he was the last person to see
these girls, and any other sightings were unreliable,
wasn't he?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
when he came back to the house on that Tuesday evening,
you have accepted that you had a long conversation?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
as long as an hour and a half?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you put to him that you suspected a woman had been
in your bed?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
what?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
you insist that that is the only reason that ever crossed
your mind for the bedding, if I can put it that way?
MAXINE CARR
yes, it is.
MR LATHAM
would it have made you angry that he had another woman?
MAXINE CARR
I wouldn't be very happy, it would be upsetting.
MR LATHAM
you were hoping to marry this man, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I was.
MR LATHAM
you were wearing, or had worn, an engagement ring?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were trying to have a child by him, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
here he tells you - you had almost cast-iron evidence
that he had a woman in his bed, your bed?
MAXINE CARR
it was just a thought, sir, and I dismissed it straight
away.
MR LATHAM
would you like me to go over it again? he had never, ever
laundered anything in the entirety of your relationship
and he troubled not just to take the duvet cover off,
but he had been stupid enough to put the entire duvet
in?
MAXINE CARR
I'm sorry, sir, I never thought of it. I can't give you
any other answer.
MR LATHAM
in having this hour and a half conversation with him it
never occurred to you to say to him "And what's more,
Ian, what have you been doing in our bedroom while I have
been away?"?
MAXINE CARR
I was more bothered about Ian, the way he was, to ask
him any questions, stupid questions.
MR LATHAM
with respect, that's in the context of your future with
him and your relationship with him. Hardly a stupid or
irrelevant question?
MAXINE CARR
it is a stupid question when two children have gone missing.
It is a stupid question to be arguing about when two children
have gone missing, sir.
MR LATHAM
of course you appreciate what I'm suggesting to you that
while spending an hour and a half discussing this context
of the children going missing, the bed clothing would
be highly sniffed?
MAXINE CARR
now, yesterday, not then. not then.
MR LATHAM
if this had been a two minute conversation, so be it,
but in an hour and a half you must have gone round and
round and round in circles with him?
MAXINE CARR
not really. he just told me how it was when he told me
on the phone that the girl had the nosebleed, Jess had
the nosebleed. All he said was "And one of them sat
on the bed", that was when I just said "What
the heck was they doing there?" he didn't go into
detail.
MR LATHAM
you were absolutely appalled when you heard those girls
had come into the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
when you talked to him about them going upstairs, you
just simply couldn't believe what he was saying, could
you?
MAXINE CARR
no, but he seemed to have answers for everything.
MR LATHAM
had answers later for leading one of them to be in the
bedroom?
MAXINE CARR
he just said "There was nowhere else for them to
sit, Maxine. They had to be there to get to the sink".
MR LATHAM
let's look at that. in this hour and a half, while you
are asking him about this, running through what had happened,
did you ever say to him, "Why on earth didn't you
just take them into the kitchen"?
MAXINE CARR
initial reaction, I said that I did mention the kitchen,
I did ask. I knew there was toilet paper under the sink,
that's where I keep it.
MR LATHAM
you knew there was running water in the kitchen?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and a sink. It wouldn't matter if blood got on the floor
of the kitchen at all, would it?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
did you ask him, "why on earth didn't you take them
into the kitchen , what are you doing taking them upstairs"?
MAXINE CARR
I asked him questions. He said he was thinking on his
feet, there was no paper downstairs in the toilet. He
had to go upstairs and the girls followed him. I didn't
say you should have done this or done that. It had already
been done by then. He couldn't right it, could he.
MR LATHAM
a woman who would think, an instant that a woman has been
in her bed, as you say, are you saying that you really
didn't question him carefully and think about his answers
when he told you about the girls being in his house?
MAXINE CARR
I asked him, I can't, I'm not a police officer or anything,
he gave me an answer, I believed his answer. I could not
make it any better.
MR LATHAM
whatever answer made it worse?
MAXINE CARR
it didn't sound very nice, no.
MR LATHAM
it didn't sound very nice? it sounded absolutely appalling,
didn't it?
MAXINE CARR
okay, it sounded appalling.
MR LATHAM
it sounded appalling?
MAXINE CARR
it sounded appalling. no, It did sound appalling.
MR LATHAM
I ask you again what did he tell you about the reason
for the washing?
MAXINE CARR
he didn't give me a reason for the washing because I never
asked him.
MR LATHAM
why not?
MAXINE CARR
because I was too busy thinking about other things. It
was a sheet, it wasn't important to me at that time.
MR LATHAM
it was desperately important?
MAXINE CARR
those children were important to me at that time, not
whether he had had a woman in my house.
MR LATHAM
we are going round in circles, Miss Carr?
MAXINE CARR
he never told me about the washing and I never asked him.
MR LATHAM
wondering "sex", that was your mind set?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the moment you saw it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
why is it sly for a man to take two ten year old girls
into his house?
MAXINE CARR
he shouldn't be having children in the house with him.
MR LATHAM
why?
MAXINE CARR
because people do things.
MR LATHAM
do what things?
MAXINE CARR
sexual things.
MR LATHAM
sex?
MAXINE CARR
I knew at that time, he, it never even crossed my mind
that Ian was in any way that kind of person.
MR LATHAM
that's the point isn't it? you knew at once the reason
men don't take strange girls into a home when there is
no-one else there, and take them upstairs, is that everybody
immediately thinks "sex"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, they do.
MR LATHAM
inappropriate behaviour?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you had a cast-iron piece of evidence which you had
just taken out of the washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
which you knew had come off the very bed that Ian admitted
to you that one of the girls had been sitting on?
MAXINE CARR
yes, he sat on the bed, nothing else happened.
MR LATHAM
he was really scared?
MAXINE CARR
yes, he was anxious, he was pacing up and down.
MR LATHAM
he was more than anxious; he was really, really scared?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you used this expression yesterday when you were giving
evidence "the girls were out of the equation"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
what did you mean by that?
MAXINE CARR
basically when the lie was made up I knew that those girls
had left the house so then it was basically that people
would have seen the girls coming into the house and Ian
didn't want his reputation being ruined for exactly the
reason we have talked about, having girls in the house
for dirty things.
MR LATHAM
all that mattered you said was Ian and his job, Ian and
his reputation, our house. That's what you said yesterday?
MAXINE CARR
at that point in time, yes, because the girls had left
the house.
MR LATHAM
that was your primary concern, wasn't it, Ian, his job,
his reputation, and your home, your future. that was what
you were concerned about, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
I was more concerned about Ian. This was not about me,
this was about Ian.
MR LATHAM
Ian equals you, doesn't it?
MAXINE CARR
didn't think about me at the time, sir. I'm sorry, I wasn't
the person that had seen those children, I wasn't important.
MR LATHAM
if Ian lost his reputation, lost his job, you lost your
home didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you worked out they were dead?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
if they were dead, nothing could bring them back, could
it?
MAXINE CARR
not if they were dead, no, but they weren't dead sir.
MR LATHAM
they wouldn't be a consideration, they would be out of
the equation if they were dead?
MAXINE CARR
that is not what I meant.
MR LATHAM
what had to be preserved at all costs was your future
with Ian, your home and job and everything, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
this wasn't about me, sir.
MR LATHAM
what did you do with the washing that you had taken out
of the washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
I presume I put it on the washing line.
MR LATHAM
you completed the washing?
MAXINE CARR
well, yes, nobody else was going to.
MR LATHAM
and when you completed drying and sorting out the summer
duvet and the cover that went with it, what did you then
do with those two items?
MAXINE CARR
I would have replaced them on the bed and taken the big
quilt off because it was the middle of summer.
MR LATHAM
you put the bed back as it had been when you had left
the house on the Saturday?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you carried on cleaning up the house, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
I cleaned the house, yes.
MR LATHAM
you washed some curtains, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
I washed two pairs of curtains, yes.
MR LATHAM
the Hall curtains and?
MAXINE CARR
and the dining room ones.
MR LATHAM
the dining room ones. why did you wash the dining room
curtains?
MAXINE CARR
my intent at that time, if I had had long enough was to
work my way through house. I was next going to move on
to the living room and take the curtains down from there,
then go upstairs and take the curtains from there.
MR LATHAM
but you started with the dining room curtains?
MAXINE CARR
I started with the downstairs curtains, the hallway and
the, the two velvet curtains. Basically, velour.
MR LATHAM
what did he tell you had been going on in the dining room
for you to launder those curtains?
MAXINE CARR
he didn't tell me anything had gone on in the dining room
apart from water coming through the roof, the ceiling.
MR LATHAM
when the police came into that house, not a fingerprint
from the girls was found - you know that, don't you?
MAXINE CARR
I know that now, yes.
MR LATHAM
not a DNA stain was found relating to those girls in the
house, you know that now?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
not a head hair from those girls was found in that house?
MAXINE CARR
which I found impossible, but it wasn't, no.
MR LATHAM
because that house was subjected to the most careful clean-up
by you and Ian, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
not by me, sir, I just cleaned my house.
MR LATHAM
did you notice that a blanket had disappeared from the
cupboard under the stairs?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't know there was a blanket underneath the stairs.
All that is under there is the hoover and shoes.
MR LATHAM
you heard the evidence of the officer who went into the
house while you weren't there on the Monday, and did a
general search of the house to make sure that girls weren't
hidden or alive or dead in the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you remember the evidence that one of the places the officer
went was in the cupboard under the stairs?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and he had to move, tread on at least one blanket to ensure
there wasn't anything hidden underneath it?
MAXINE CARR
we haven't got any blankets.
MR LATHAM
not now, there isn't?
MAXINE CARR
no, we didn't have any blankets before. All we have got
is sheets and duvets.
MR LATHAM
on the Thursday, you had been back in the house for the
Tuesday night and the Wednesday night?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you had had plenty of time, hadn't you, to think?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you had had plenty of time to think, to reflect upon what
he had told you and what you had seen?
MAXINE CARR
to be quite honest I didn't really think about any of
that, it was the here and now at the time - I wasn't sat
there contemplating over things.
MR LATHAM
as you were pegging out the duvet and pegging out the
duvet cover, did your earlier thought ever come back to
you?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know because I can't remember. I know I must have
hung it out but I can't remember that incident.
MR LATHAM
as you took them off the line they were dry and decided
to replace them on your bed, did any thought come back
to you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
you completely forgot what you had thought when you first
saw them in the washing machine?
MAXINE CARR
yes, there was other things to think about.
MR LATHAM
that is a lie?
MAXINE CARR
no, it is not, sir.
MR LATHAM
Do you wish to be judged on that answer?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
well ----.
MR LATHAM
I am going to ask you again to reflect upon that answer
you have given. you never, ever, thought again about what
you had thought when you first saw the washing machine
and, in particular, when you took the washing off the
line and when you put it back on the bed?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, didn't think it.
MR LATHAM
you don't want to reflect on that?
MAXINE CARR
no, I don't need to reflect upon it.
MR LATHAM
the crib sheet, you know the document of which I speak,
the document in Ian's handwriting "4.55, 5 p.m. got
in the bath..." and so on?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
that had come into existence by the Thursday, hadn't it?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
are you saying that you still hadn't resolved between
you that you were going to tell the lie?
MAXINE CARR
oh no, that was there but, that piece of paper that you
have got was not written until after the CID officers
had left our house on the Saturday, the 10th I think it
was.
MR LATHAM
you must have discussed, however, what the lie was going
to be. you did that, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes. We discussed on the Tuesday when he said "You
know you can be in Soham, nobody knows that you have not
been Soham, which, then he said well..." - I asked
"well where would I be? I would have spoken to the
girls". And he said "Well you could either have
been in bed or in the bath". I said, "in bed
at that time of day?" and he said "well in the
bath". so I believed that if anybody asked I was
in the bath.
MR LATHAM
did you discuss the details of what was to be said?
MAXINE CARR
not on the Tuesday night no?
MR LATHAM
on the Wednesday?
MAXINE CARR
I'm not sure when the details came into plan exactly.
I think it was just rough times of incidents of what he
told me, when he saw the girls and when he said Sadie
came back, and stuff like that.
MR LATHAM
so you had sorted out the story you would tell?
MAXINE CARR
I sorted out I was in the bath, yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
sorry?
MAXINE CARR
it was sorted out that I was going to be in the bath,
yes.
MR LATHAM
more than just "I am going to be in the bath",
you needed to sort out some details of the story to make
sure it fits?
MAXINE CARR
Can't remember how it went about, sir, all I can remember
very much about the note which was written on the Saturday.
MR LATHAM
it was on the Thursday that the journalist came to your
home isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
A group of them, it culminated in a radio interview with
Ian?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
during the time that they were in your home the two of
you were sitting together, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, we were.
MR LATHAM
and there was quite a bit of chat about what had happened
on the Sunday evening, wasn't there?
MAXINE CARR
I believe so, yes.
MR LATHAM
yes. and the two of you quite seamlessly lied through
your teeth, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you sat there and even joked about it, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know what you were told, you can maybe remind
me.
MR LATHAM
one of you talked about the dog being in the bath at some
point with you, didn't they, as a joke, in relation to
Sadie needing a wash and you being in the bath?
MAXINE CARR
I don't recall that, but----
MR LATHAM
you were doing most of the talking according to the journalists?
MAXINE CARR
I would be talking about the girls a lot yes.
MR LATHAM
you were talking most of the time, and that included detail
of what had been going on on the Sunday evening, didn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know, sir, I know I talked about the girls an
awful lot.
MR LATHAM
you were looking them in the eye as you spoke?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew what you were saying----
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
----was a lie?
MAXINE CARR
yes. not what I knew about the girls obviously, but I
was in Soham, yes.
MR LATHAM
you gave them little bits of details about what had happened
that evening and it is all rubbish isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
indeed, that was the time when the conversation got returned
to what the girls would do if they were asked to get into
a motor car or somebody tried to get them into a motor
car?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I think so.
MR LATHAM
and you proffered one view and, indeed, Ian confirmed
the same sort of thing; it had to be two people they knew
well?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't say that I don't think.
MR LATHAM
he said that?
MAXINE CARR
right.
MR LATHAM
you said they would kick up a right stink, they would
have screamed out if anybody tried to get them in a car?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I imagine that's what they would do, yes.
MR LATHAM
you were interviewed yourself at about three o'clock that
afternoon, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
I'm not sure.
MR LATHAM
we have got the transcripts. it is in the transcript section
of the bundle, the grey lever-arch file, tab 1. it starts,
it is the section of the transcript which runs right through
to the end paginated, which runs from page 1 to 18 and
it starts with a chat while the car is being displayed.
some way into the section, have you got it?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I have got a transcript of Ian Huntley.
MR LATHAM
BBC look East?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the bit specifically relating to you starts at page 3,
doesn't it, where you introduce yourself, Maxine Carr?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were quite content to talk away to Rachel Dane, weren't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, about the children, yes.
MR LATHAM
did you feel uncomfortable that here you were being actually
recorded?
MAXINE CARR
it is not very nice to have to sit through, it is not
enjoyable. It is very nerve racking.
MR LATHAM
knowing you were going to be telling lies which were actually
being recorded?
MAXINE CARR
I believe the only thing I did say in there was that I
was in the bath, most of it was about Holly and Jess.
MR LATHAM
you knew that at any time you might be asked all sorts
of questions to camera about that Sunday night didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
I suppose so.
MR LATHAM
and you knew you were going to be lying about it, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and yet you launched yourself into this interview, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the jury has seen that you were totally relaxed, weren't
you?
MAXINE CARR
I think you will see that I was nervous on the camera.
MR LATHAM
and you started to speak about the girls in the past tense,
didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
basically, she asked me in the past tense, but the main
reason for me was because I didn't work with the children
anymore. I was talking about them when they were at school,
when I was at school with them. It wasn't a deliberate
thing to say.
MR LATHAM
"they 'were' lovely
kids"?
MAXINE CARR
when I worked at school, they were lovely kids.
MR LATHAM
"she was very funny
and Holly was just a little angel, like a little angel"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
down at the bottom of page 4 "Ian told me that two
girls had asked about me and I just sort of, oh yes but
didn't know who it was and then when the police actually
contacted Ian wanting to search, that two girls had gone
missing and said the names, immediately I thought well
that was the girls that came to see me. and it was shocking
because you don't think it is going to happen round where
you are." that was all complete rubbish, wasn't it
because you weren't there?
MAXINE CARR
no, I wasn't there.
MR LATHAM
at the top of the page towards the end, quite a long answer,
"They would have seen Ian and the dog outside because
I used to walk the dog a bit and just asked how I was.
I just wish I had been (inaudible) and popped out and
had a chat with them." that's your embellishment?
MAXINE CARR
yes, but also if I had been there, I would be feeling
very guilty, sir, for a long long time - that if I was
there I could have stopped them from dying.
MR LATHAM
Miss Carr----
MAXINE CARR
but yes, I lied.
MR LATHAM
you were simply placing yourself in the house and having
done that, lying by thinking about what you would have
done and what you would have said if you had been there,
weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I suppose so, yes.
MR LATHAM
you had already discussed with Ian in general terms what
you were going to say, that's right, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the interviewer and the team with the interviewers were
concerned that you had been talking in the past tense,
weren't they?
MAXINE CARR
yes, they said something about it.
MR LATHAM
they stopped the interview, didn't they?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and that's in the middle of page 5, towards the bottom
of page 5?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
break, then a further interview. And the break involved
them explaining they were concerned you were talking in
the past tense?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
in effect you re-do part of the earlier interview where
you talk about they are brilliant kids, just like little
angels and so on. we see that at the bottom of page five,
yes?
MR LATHAM
not exact words but a repetition of the sort of description
you were giving earlier?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you slipped back into the past tense?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't something, it wasn't scripted, I'm not (inaudible)
sir.
MR LATHAM
you believed they were dead by the time you were talking
to this interviewer didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
you had worked it out, hadn't you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I hadn't, sir.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
sorry to interrupt again, I don't know if you want to
put the converse of that; whether this witness is positively
asserting that she believed they were alive at the time
she was telling lies?
MR LATHAM
did you believe they were alive?
MAXINE CARR
yes, they were out there somewhere, yes.
MR LATHAM
yet you have accepted the proposition I put to you that
even on Tuesday morning you knew it was desperately serious?
MAXINE CARR
you don't think that people you know are dead.
MR LATHAM
you heard, or were aware of the Radio 1 interview, did
you hear the interview taking place or did you just hear
it on the radio later?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't hear it on the radio either. I was in the house
when he was outside with the lady.
MR LATHAM
did you never in fact appreciate what Ian was saying in
that radio interview?
MAXINE CARR
I never heard what he said in that interview, apart from
what you have played in here.
MR LATHAM
on the Friday the police came to your home didn't they?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
in the form of a beat officer who was doing house to house
inquiries?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew that sooner or later the police would be knocking
on your door, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
not really, no. I knew they would probably come round
and ask Ian questions because of what he had seen.
MR LATHAM
you knew that the police knew that Ian was saying he was
one of the last people to have ever seen these girls?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was a message you were now engaged in and disseminating,
it was going out on the air waves, wasn't it? you had
an interview, it was going to be broadcast, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you were giving details which you knew could be of
crucial importance, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
in this beat officer? . .
MR LATHAM
why do you think the journalists were even bothering to
interview you about the Sunday?
MAXINE CARR
Because they were interested in Ian because he had seen
the girls.
MR LATHAM
they knew Ian was one of the last, if not the last people
to see the girls?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
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