Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman - Documents 04/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Thursday, 04 December 2003 SKY News Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear. Page 01 02 MR LATHAM they wanted it from you too, didn't they, and that's why you gave the interview, didn't you? MAXINE CARR they became interested in me because somebody let slip that I had got a card from Holly. MR LATHAM but once they had established that you were in the house at the time, they wanted to hear your story as well didn't they? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you knew why that was, because it was so important, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you appreciated that Ian had already made a witness statement, didn't you, before ever you got back to Soham? MAXINE CARR I didn't know he didn't tell me. MR LATHAM he didn't tell you he had been seen by the police, made a witness statement? MAXINE CARR no he didn't. That's why I told him to go to the police about his allegation. he didn't tell me what he had been doing. MR LATHAM you didn't know the police had taken witness statements from him? You must have appreciated that it wasn't going to be long before the police were going to be knocking on the door of number 5? MAXINE CARR okay, yes. MR LATHAM don't agree with me unless it is right? MAXINE CARR I knew they would be interested in Ian because----. MR LATHAM here you were announcing if not to the world at large certainly a significant portion of the local population on a television interview that you and Ian were in the house, effectively together, when the instance of the last sighting of the girls had taken place? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM if you didn't even appreciate that he had ever made a witness statement to the police and the police did not actually appreciate that he was such a witness, they were bound to be coming round to your home, weren't they? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you must have discussed with Ian what you were going to do if the police came knocking on the door? MAXINE CARR no, sir, because he never mentioned the police when he was talking about the lying. it wasn't about the police, it was "if anybody asks". MR LATHAM he would be in a desperate position if they knocked on the door and you wouldn't back him up when he told his lying story? MAXINE CARR yes, he never mentioned the police. MR LATHAM he would have wanted to know from his partner what she was going to do; he must have wanted to know what you were going to do? MAXINE CARR we just decided I was going to be in the bath. MR LATHAM and you were going to say that if the police came round? MAXINE CARR he didn't mention the police, the police was never mentioned. It was, "anybody that asks". it wasn't, "the police are coming." MR LATHAM you knew how serious this all was, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM there were police everywhere, weren't there? MAXINE CARR yes, there were was. MR LATHAM I come back to the point you are an intelligent woman; you must have appreciated sooner or later that was going to be reduced to writing in some sort of formal document, you must have known that? MAXINE CARR sorry, sir, no. MR LATHAM is that an appropriate moment? MR JUSTICE MOSES that is up to you. two o'clock, please. Hearing adjourned - will resume after lunch . MR JUSTICE MOSES Good Afternoon. MR LATHAM Miss Carr, when we broke off an hour ago I understand you conceded you appreciated that sooner or later a policeman would be asking on behalf of the investigation what had gone on on the Sunday evening? MAXINE CARR I never really thought that they were going to ask me anything, I didn't really know because I wasn't involved in anything, no conversation. MR LATHAM it really had not crossed your mind, despite being interviewed, despite the fact that Ian was being interviewed, despite the fact that you knew that everyone was saying that he was likely to be the last person who had seen them. It never crossed your mind that sooner or later a policeman would be asking for your version of events? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR LATHAM because of course on the Friday, the 9th August, a policeman did come round, didn't he? MAXINE CARR yes, he did. MR LATHAM the two of you sat down side by side while he went through a house to house inquiry for each of you? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM this was serious, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR it was, yes. MR LATHAM this was the time to tell the truth, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR I wasn't allowed to at the time, sir. MR LATHAM you were sitting on a sofa in the presence of a policeman, what do you mean "I wasn't allowed to"? MAXINE CARR can I explain what happened in that room? am I allowed to do that? MR LATHAM by all means? MAXINE CARR thank you. when the police obviously came in and he said he was doing house to house and had to fill forms out, he sat down. There was general chit chat about what happened before he started talking to Ian. He interviewed Ian first. Ian said he was outside cleaning the dog and I was upstairs in the bathroom at the time. I was in the room with him I could hardly turn round and say no Ian, that's lying. MR LATHAM why was the policeman at the house? MAXINE CARR He was doing the house to house describing the neighbours, etcetera. MR LATHAM house to house, inquiries, involving what? MAXINE CARR giving descriptions of each other,. MR LATHAM what was the house to house inquiry concerned with? MAXINE CARR the disappearance of Holly and Jessica and if anyone had seen them. MR LATHAM which by now it was about as serious as it could possibly get, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM this was a policeman who was filling in police forms, wasn't he? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM and where did you think those forms were going to go when they had been filled in? MAXINE CARR I presumed they were going to be looked through for any relevant things. MR LATHAM They were going to go into the systems, weren't they? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM the form he filled in as he spoke to Ian was a form which contained a major lie, didn't it? MAXINE CARR yes, it did, yes. MR LATHAM indeed it contained two fundamental lies. firstly, it did not mention that the girls had gone into the house, did it? MAXINE CARR no, it didn't, no. MR LATHAM I'm going to go to the other detail, he didn't mention that general proposition, the girls being in the house? MAXINE CARR no, sir. MR LATHAM and one of them indeed being injured in the sense of having a nose bleed? MAXINE CARR no, it didn't, sir. MR LATHAM the fact that girl was bleeding was potentially significant, wasn't it, the mere fact? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you heard him conceal that from that police officer? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM and then you heard him indicating that, you could corroborate his story in the sense that you could support the fact, firstly, that you were in the house? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and, secondly, of course, that you were in the very room that might be a sensitive room, namely up having a bath? MAXINE CARR I didn't know that at the time, but yes. MR LATHAM you knew it was a room the girls had been in, didn't you, because he had told you? MAXINE CARR Yes, but not as a crime. MR LATHAM but there was a form being filled out that was going into the system? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you joined in the deception as his form was being filled out? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you didn't just sit there mouse-like, horrified at what was going on, did you? MAXINE CARR no, I didn't, sir. MR LATHAM one of the things that happened was that the form, in the context of what the officer was asking was, in one sense, rather meaningless - what had he been wearing at the time - wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and he described the shirt he had been wearing? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you weren't there, were you? MAXINE CARR no, I wasn't there. MR LATHAM you had no idea what shirt he was wearing? MAXINE CARR no, but I do his washing at end of the day, sir, and when I came back from Grimsby Ian normally just dumps his clothes in the bedroom and there was one set of clothes on the floor, and he would have been wearing those over the weekend. MR LATHAM you argued with him, didn't you, about what was the correct shirt to put on the form? MAXINE CARR because he looked puzzled about what he was wearing, and I said, "I think you was wearing this", and he said, "No, I think I was wearing that", and that's when I said---- MR LATHAM you joined in the argument and you ended up saying, "I should know - I do your bloody washing!"? MAXINE CARR yes, sir, I did. MR LATHAM you were joining in the deception while his form was being filled in? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM doing your best to make it convincing? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM lying to a policeman? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM this was not an investigation into driving without a driving licence, or insurance or driving disqualified or drink and driving, something like that; this was potentially literally deadly serious? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM you were asked to fill out or answer the questions in a separate form that he was filling out for you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and again it wants a question of just having seconds to think about it. You had been watching what had been going on and listening to what had been going on while his form was being filled out? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you continued the deception through to the very end when that policeman left the house didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you knew that two formal police documents were going, as that man left the house, into the system? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and the system was therein designed to try and bring this desperate, desperate situation to an end, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you knew, didn't you, that there were residents of Soham who were doing their utmost in any way they possibly could, to help to try and find these girls? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM to try and help with the identity of whoever it was who had done anything to these girls? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and there were literally by then, it was on the news, hundreds of police officers working round the clock desperately trying to sort the problem out, you knew that? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir. MR LATHAM you were quite deliberately and knowingly injecting into the system misinformation weren't you? MAXINE CARR yes, but not deliberately like that, I was not stopping what I believed was the perpetrator. MR LATHAM you knew it was going into the system, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you were listening to your partner lying and then you were lying? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM and the joint enterprise the two of you were engaged in was to convince that man so when he left the house, he thought the two of you were telling the truth. that was what you were engaged in, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM on the Saturday, Rachel Dane - I have already touched upon this - interviewed Ian Huntley, didn't she? MAXINE CARR yes in the sitting room, yes. MR LATHAM you heard what he said on that occasion, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM page 7 of the transcripts of the media interviews, "I'm talking to the----"? MAXINE CARR what page is that again, sir ? MR LATHAM 7? MAXINE CARR tab 1? MR LATHAM yes. have you got it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM we see Look East, 10th August, this is the Saturday. in the middle of that first page, Ian Huntley is giving an account in your hearing what happened to Sadie? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM "Sadie is in season, she had run off, she had disappeared for a few hours and I had been out all afternoon looking for her. She came back of her own accord about 20 to 6 looking very messy. so I was outside on the doorstep brushing her down and cleaning her up before I would let her into the house". So you heard him say that? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew that was a lie, didn't you? MAXINE CARR when he saw the girls that he was washing the dog? MR LATHAM you knew that it was a lie when he said that he was brushing Sadie down on the doorstep and cleaning her up before he would let her into the house? MAXINE CARR I didn't know that was a lie because that's what he told me he was doing. MR LATHAM when you were speaking to his mother when you rang her from prison, you explained that when you spoke to him on the telephone at 6.24 in the evening? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you were speaking to him and Sadie was in the house with him? MAXINE CARR that's what - yes. MR LATHAM he had the television on, that's right isn't it? MAXINE CARR that's what I heard, but Ian told me he was actually cleaning the dog. MR LATHAM but I will take you to it, if you like. you know what I'm talking about don't you? MAXINE CARR yes, I know what I said. MR LATHAM there was no sound of anybody in the background, all I could hear was the TV. He was in the house, he brought Sadie to the phone and he was going "Sadie come here, lay down", she was rolling over and I heard her barking, she was. MR LATHAM He was in the house? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew when you rang at 6.24, which was before the girls came to the house, Sadie was already allowed by Ian into the house because you were speaking to him while she was in the house and he was sorting his supper out and listening to the television? MAXINE CARR Yes, that's what he told me. MR LATHAM you knew that on 10th August didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM yet here he was in his interview saying the reason he was on the doorstep when he saw the girls? MAXINE CARR buts that's what he told me he was doing when he saw the girls. MR JUSTICE MOSES let the question be finished. MR LATHAM in the interview you were listening to, he was giving the reason for being outside the house when he saw the girls that he was cleaning up Sadie because she was too dirty to be allowed into the house? MAXINE CARR right, that's what he had told me he was doing when he saw the girls. MR LATHAM absolutely? MAXINE CARR I understand what you mean, I understand the time difference, yes. MR LATHAM you knew when you spoke to him that he had already got Sadie in the house, didn't you? MAXINE CARR looking now, yes. MR LATHAM so you knew he was lying about that, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you knew he was lying about that and yet that was the very reason for him having any contact whatsoever with these girls, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM the cause was the contact? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM The reason he was explaining for having the contact with the girls was a lie? MAXINE CARR no, he told me that was what he was doing. MR LATHAM it doesn't fit? MAXINE CARR I know it doesn't fit now, sir, but at the time it fitted. MR LATHAM on the Saturday other officers came to see you after that Look East interview that you had and that he had? MAXINE CARR CID, yes. MR LATHAM you must have realised by now, having spoken to the officers on the house to house inquiry, you must have realised that the police might well come back and ask you further questions? MAXINE CARR no, I didn't, sir, when they came to the house they said they were coming to take a statement from Ian and as the officer who came into the box, the lady officer, who said she asked me if I had given a statement and I said yes, I have, meaning the bobby on the beat man, I thought that's a statement, and Ian said, no, you haven't made a statement - you have to make one. MR LATHAM by then you had the crib sheet? MAXINE CARR the piece of paper? MR LATHAM By Saturday you had the crib sheet? MAXINE CARR no, the piece of paper, those times and everything was written after the two officers came to our house on the Saturday, sir, and that was because I had cocked the story up, as Ian said. MR LATHAM When you were giving that statement to the woman police officer, you weren't under any pressure from her, were you? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM you were sitting privately with her in the dining room? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM at the dining room table? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM a statement which you gave after she had talked it all through with you first? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and this was a solemn document, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM this statement, consisting of three pages, "each signed by me is true to the best of my knowledge and belief"? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM "and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated anything which I know to be false or believe to be untrue"? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM you put your signature to that, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, I did, sir. MR LATHAM "on Sunday, 4th August I wanted to relax so I had a bath. I believe I got into the bath about 4.55 time. I was having a soak. after about 20 to 30 minutes, Ian shouted up the dog was dirty and he would need to bath her. I finished off in the bath and got out. after about 15 minutes or so Ian came upstairs and said two girls had just asked about me and said they were sorry I didn't get the job at the school..." it goes on but I perhaps do not need to read out any more. that was false? MAXINE CARR yes, it was, sir . MR LATHAM you believed it to be false? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM here you were signing it to be true to the best of your knowledge and belief? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir. MR LATHAM you signed a declaration that warned you - I make it knowing if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir. MR LATHAM you knew that was going to go into the system? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM something which, on the face of it, anyone who read it could rely upon? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM but it was a lie? MAXINE CARR yes, it was a lie sir. MR LATHAM "I asked him who they were and he said he didn't know, but he described them as having Man United strips on, one of them had dark hair and one blonde hair"? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM "I thought it was nice that the girls had asked after me but didn't work out who they were. I have seen the girls outside of school before but not together. I didn't think anything more of it until the police arrived later that evening, saying someone had gone missing and Ian had to go to the college to show them round. I haven't seen Holly or Jess since school broke up." you actually embellished the story by speaking of the police arriving later in the evening? MAXINE CARR using the information that Ian had given me, yes. MR LATHAM indeed, you went further in embellishing your story in describing orally to the police officer the reason that you spent all the time in the bath, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes that was an actual reason, sir, because on the Sunday, if you notice, there is phone calls between myself and Ian Huntley. In the morning I text him saying "I'm not enjoying my time in Grimsby because I'm having a period". MR LATHAM It is an embellishment for having spent so long in the bath in Soham isn't it? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir. MR LATHAM the person consuming your lies would likely, would they not, to be more likely to believe simply because of these embellishments you put into your story? MAXINE CARR I suppose so, yes. MR LATHAM it makes it all the more believable? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM did you look the officer in the eye? MAXINE CARR I don't know if did or I didn't. MR LATHAM when this process was going on - the taking of the statements? MAXINE CARR I don't know. MR LATHAM you must have talked with her how long - half an hour? MAXINE CARR we talked about all sorts of things, commented on the house, she wanted an ash tray. MR LATHAM did you feel comfortable? MAXINE CARR how do you feel comfortable talking to the police. MR LATHAM if you are honest---- MAXINE CARR It is still not a nice thing, sir. MR LATHAM no doubt Ian wanted to know what you put in your statement? MAXINE CARR yes, he did. MR LATHAM after the process had finished why didn't you do anything about what had now happened in the ensuing days? MAXINE CARR what do you mean? MR LATHAM well, you had injected into the system a description of events which was wholly false and neglected the investigation a crucial fact that those girls to your understanding had actually been in the house, why didn't you do something about it? MAXINE CARR why didn't I go to the police or tell them I had given a false story? MR LATHAM yes? MAXINE CARR because of the situation I was in - I didn't want Ian arrested - that was all about Ian. MR LATHAM all about Ian? MAXINE CARR Yes, sir. MR LATHAM and you? MAXINE CARR I have no conscience in that, I had nothing to do with the girls this (inaudible). MR LATHAM you had? MAXINE CARR I had no conscience regarding those girls. MR LATHAM no conscience? MAXINE CARR I'm not talking about lying, I'm talking about what happened on the Sunday - I wasn't there. MR LATHAM that makes it all right, does it? MAXINE CARR no, it doesn't make it all right, it makes none of this all right. MR LATHAM you knew from then onward, for the balance of that week, that Ian was continuing to pedal the lie? MAXINE CARR he was talking to a lot of people. MR LATHAM continuing to pedal the lie? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and he could do it with confidence because he had you standing in the background providing him with support? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM and you were quite prepared to look people in the eye and lie to them, weren't you? MAXINE CARR because I knew those girls had walked away from that house, sir, that was the only reason why. MR LATHAM what right had you to come to that judgment? MAXINE CARR I have no right, sir, all I have is what I feel about, what I felt about that person. MR LATHAM on the 15th you were interviewed by Jeremy Thompson for Sky News, weren't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM page 15 of the transcript. this was the Thursday. you knew the girls were dead didn't you? MAXINE CARR no, I did not know the girls were dead. MR LATHAM look what you were saying you produced the card, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, Ed Fraser told me to bring the card with me. MR LATHAM the middle of the page "This is something-", ie the card, "-I will probably keep for the rest of my life? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM what did you mean by that, why this card suddenly become some sort of talisman you were going to keep for the rest of your life? MAXINE CARR I was going to keep all the cards the children had sent me. It was a special time at that time, I enjoyed it very much. MR LATHAM but this card in particular? MAXINE CARR this was the card in question, the one I was holding up. MR LATHAM it is because you knew it was from a little girl who was dead? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM you were arrested along with Ian Huntley? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM You were interviewed over a very long period of time weren't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM your first interview at Thorpwood police station started at 11.41 in the morning on the Saturday? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you were interviewed several times, ran into the 18th, the 19th, and, indeed ended finally at 7 o'clock in the evening on the 20th August? MAXINE CARR yes, that's right. MR LATHAM many, many tapes were put into a machine to tape those interviews, weren't they? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM I do not suggest it is easy- for one moment suggest it is easy to be interviewed, particularly when you have been arrested on suspicion of murder. But you had plenty of time during those days to think about what you were saying, didn't you? MAXINE CARR no, sir, it wasn't thought about. I was in a state of shock. didn't even want a solicitor when I was taken to that police station. MR LATHAM the first thing that happened, I was going to suggest that to you, the first thing that happened there wasn't a solicitor. You didn't ask for a solicitor at the very first interview, did you? MAXINE CARR no, I didn't want one. MR LATHAM you had no-one else on any view to tell you what to do, apart from Ian Huntley, who you say had said to you hours before you were arrested, "tell the police the truth"? MAXINE CARR He kept saying we are going to be arrested and I said "No we are not going to be, why would we be arrested, we have not done anything". he said "Look you will be okay as long as you just go and tell them the truth". MR LATHAM from beginning to end in all those interviews, you said firstly you had been told to tell the truth and you were going tell the truth, effectively, didn't you? MAXINE CARR I was going tell them that I wasn't there then. MR LATHAM that was your lie? MAXINE CARR pardon? MR LATHAM that was your lie with the police? MAXINE CARR all my lying ----. MR LATHAM I'm going to tell you the truth now? MAXINE CARR sorry I the thought you said that was my lie. MR LATHAM line, that's right isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM the time has come to be in effect frank with you, "I have told untruths but I'm not going to any more". that, in effect, is what you were saying to the police? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM in a nutshell, I paraphrased, but that was the attitude and you kept on coming back to that, hour after hour, day after day? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM effectively, "Trust me, Maxine, I am now telling you, the police, the truth"? MAXINE CARR I wasn't asking anybody to trust me, I was just asking them listen to what I had to say. MR LATHAM because it was the truth? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM what you did was to leave out absolutely crutial pieces of information while you were being interviewed, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you left out the fact that the car had all been cleaned up and the carpet? MAXINE CARR sir, that had no relevance to me, they were arresting me for murdering two children. What has the car got to do with it. MR LATHAM the carpet? MAXINE CARR Yes. MR LATHAM you did not disclose the carpet had been changed, did you? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM anything that happened in that house from the time you left it on the Saturday through to the time you came back to it on the Tuesday, or anything that happened in relation to Ian Huntley, was potentially relevant, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR no, because those children left the house. You may think it is relevant now because you have this job, but it wasn't relevant to me. MR LATHAM just confront what I am putting to you. this was by now a murder inquiry and indeed during the course of those interviews you knew that the bodies of the girls had been found, didn't you? MAXINE CARR Yes, I was told sometime Saturday. MR LATHAM and you knew that the police were alleging that Ian Huntley had killed them, didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM that was what they were alleging. you had last seen him on Saturday morning, were collected Tuesday morning and were back in Soham on the Tuesday, late afternoon? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew, didn't you, you are not stupid, you knew that what had been going on between Saturday and Tuesday afternoon had a potential relevance didn't you? MAXINE CARR it was relevant to the police, they wanted to know, yes. MR LATHAM and you knew that the car was potentially relevant, didn't you? MAXINE CARR no, sir, I didn't. MR LATHAM we'll see about that in a minute, but I'm giving you the opportunity to wrestle with it before I direct your attention to something else. you were aware the car was potentially relevant, that's what I'm suggesting to you? MAXINE CARR no, no, I'm sorry. MR LATHAM you didn't? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM if you did know the car was potentially relevant, the fact at the very weekend the girls had gone missing the fact that the carpet had been changed would be relevant, wouldn't it? MAXINE CARR it would, yes. MR LATHAM that it had been all cleaned up, would have been potentially relevant, wouldn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM that Ian Huntley had laundered the bed linen would have been potentially relevant? MR LATHAM you didn't didn't need to be told the car was potentially relevant to know the bed linen was potentially relevant? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM that bed linen was relevant, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you didn't mention it? MAXINE CARR no, they said Ian killed those kids in my house and he hadn't because they had left. MR LATHAM why did you conceal from the police that one of the things that had been going on in the house was the bed linen? MAXINE CARR I didn't conceal it, sir, I didn't conceal it deliberately if that's what you want to say. when they were asking me all these things I just kept saying, Ian has not done this, Ian has not done anything, Ian has not done this. everything else just went out of the window. MR LATHAM I'm going to take you through these interviews? MAXINE CARR you can. MR LATHAM I'm giving you the opportunity to confront the basics before I go into it. you weren't just blindly saying he didn't do it, he didn't do it? MAXINE CARR I wasn't going to listen to anything they said because I knew he had not done anything. MR LATHAM so it continued to be fine and dandy did it, to conceal whatever you chose to conceal simply because you didn't think he had done it? MAXINE CARR you called it concealing, sir, I wasn't thinking about it. MR LATHAM how could you ever have forgotten it? MAXINE CARR those children left my house. MR LATHAM you had not forgotten? MAXINE CARR Those children left my house. MR LATHAM you had not forgotten that at least one of those children to your knowledge had actually sat on the bed? Had you? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM during those interviews you had not forgotten that? MAXINE CARR no, I hadn't. MR LATHAM you had not forgotten the general fact of the girls going into the house and the movements you have been told about in the house? MAXINE CARR (inaudible). MR LATHAM that was in your mind throughout those interviews, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR To be quite honest, no it wasn't, sir. MR LATHAM it wasn't? MAXINE CARR No, it wasn't. The only piece of information that stayed in my head the whole time I was being interviewed was that those girls left that house. They went away happy and laughing and that's what he said. MR LATHAM would you accept from Ian Huntley the proposition it was broad daylight at midnight, at night? Just because he says it, does that mean to say you accept it? MAXINE CARR not things like that, no. he said they left that house. people said they had seen them on the High Street at 20 past 7 and other places. they were alive at my house, because that man said so. MR LATHAM I'm going to ask you to look at a transcript would you like a moment? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM tab 7, please. the first page is the first interview when you didn't have a solicitor present? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you had made an executive decision that you were going to say to the police "I'm going to make a clean breast of it", that's right, isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM page 2, right in the centre of the page, you were asked by the officer if you understood what the caution meant, weren't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM "I have got to say everything, because if I go into court, I can't bring things out that I have not already said". That you paraphrase as the meaning of the caution? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM over the page, you explain in a long answer that runs into the top of page 3 about Ian and the rape allegation and so on, don't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and at the end of that answer, at the top of the page "Ian has told me to tell you that". so, sorry he told you to tell us what? "Just to tell the truth".? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you were telling the police you were going to tell the truth? MAXINE CARR he told me to tell them I wasn't well that's why I had said I was in Soham in the first place. MR LATHAM you told them you were going to tell the truth? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and, indeed what I suggest is you simply set off on a new set of lies? MAXINE CARR Sir? MR LATHAM withholding all those topics I have been through with you? MAXINE CARR no, sir, they never came up. I wasn't thinking of that. They were saying he is murderer, murderer a rapist all these things, and I wasn't having it. MR LATHAM the bottom of page 3, in fact, one of the first things I asked you about this morning? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM question "when did you decide told a lie?" you see that question? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you see your answer over the page? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM the first day he rang me on the Monday and he was in absolute tears? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you told the police in interview that that is when you had decided you were going to tell the lie, isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM that's what I put to you this morning that you had spoken to Ian's mother in October and told her that this conspiracy, this agreement, to put forward a false story hatched on the Monday, and that's what you were telling the police, that's what happened on the Monday, isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM look at your long answer that starts two thirds of the way down the page. MR JUSTICE MOSES sorry, I don't know if the "yes" was to accept what she said or she now accepts that she did say that. MR LATHAM do you accept you did make that agreement on the Monday? MAXINE CARR no, I believed it was the Tuesday. that's when we talked about it anyway. MR LATHAM the long answer you gave, you were quite prepared to talk to the police, weren't you? These little short 'yes and no' answers. you were quite prepared to talk weren't you? MAXINE CARR I just wanted them to know everything and get out there and go and find the right person. MR LATHAM you just wanted them to know everything? MAXINE CARR I just wanted them to know what was going on and they should go out and find the right person. MR LATHAM let me remind you of what you just said, "I just wanted them to know everything"? MAXINE CARR yes, meaning I wanted them to know what I had one. MR LATHAM you say here it was in fact your idea to lie for him? MAXINE CARR they were trying to say he was a murderer. I'm not going to give him any bad things. MR LATHAM look at what you say in that long answer "He won't(?) have any of it, he wouldn't have me saying anything, we were so upset. Then when the police officer came round, a lady, I don't know where she came from, when she came round she took me into another room and then I inaudible). I just gulped and then he said to me when I come out, I said 'I told him that I was here'. all the details he told me I told them. the only thing I said was that I was in the bath and I weren't in the bath, I weren't in the house, which is probably a lot really." we have just been through the chronology, the lady who took the statement from you was not the first, you had already started lying to the press, hadn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM page 5, the second half of the page, question "so he couldn't come and get you on the Monday? When he rang me it was the afternoon when he told me who they were. right. he said he had been out searching for some children in the morning, but it weren't until the afternoon. I was at my grandad's until quarter past five and it would have been about half four when he rang me and told me that he had - that they were girls from my school and that they were the girls that he had spoken to. and he gave me their names and I went home". Pausing there, you are talking about and describing a particular conversation, aren't you? MAXINE CARR Yes, I am. MR LATHAM the one at your grandad's? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM the one when he told you that they had been in the house, they had been upstairs, and one of them had had a nosebleed? MAXINE CARR Yes. MR LATHAM and you left it out didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes sir. MR LATHAM how did you manage to leave it out without realising? MAXINE CARR I just didn't want anything more bad said against Ian. MR LATHAM so it is quite deliberate the withholding of this information then is it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM sorry? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM it is? did I misunderstand you five minutes ago when you said the withholding of information during these interviews was not deliberate it just escaped your mind? MAXINE CARR that was when I was talking about, you are talking about the quilt and things like that. this is the nosebleed. MR LATHAM so you made a deliberate decision you were going to continue to withhold that piece of information during the interviews? MAXINE CARR all I did when I was stood there was thinking those girls left my house. I am wrong for what I have done. MR LATHAM Miss Carr, we have already seen by this stage - we are only at page 5 - that you have been giving long and detailed answers, you talk half a page without interruption? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM you chose to talk about a conversation which we now know in the context of this case was a crucial conversation, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and you recollected that conversation, at the time you must have done, to be able to give the time and where you were and so on and so forth. it was a deliberate decision, as you gave that account, to leave that information out, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes, sir. MR LATHAM the beginning of the next interview which we can see at page 10, still on the Saturday. you had a solicitor with you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM bottom of page 11. "okay, as I understand it we didn't ask you too many questions this morning, it was really just a case of you telling us what you wanted to tell us. you had a bit of time now to think about it, think about what you said this morning and what you said yesterday. is there anything else that you want to mention to us at the moment in relation to - I know obviously things were different from the Saturday morning, Tuesday, sort of afternoon - when you came back you originally said you were in Soham." so you are specifically being asked is there anything else, having had a think about it, that you want to tell us, aren't you? MAXINE CARR I didn't particularly think that meant quilts in washing machines, sir. MR LATHAM you have had time to think about "is there anything else you want to mention to us"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM this is a murder inquiry isn't it? MAXINE CARR by a man who I believed at the time had not done it. MR LATHAM then, page 44, you actually once again this interview, describe what I have been calling the crucial telephone call, do you see the first hole punch? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM "in the afternoon when he rang up at my grandad's on the Monday? yes, yes. because he rang in the morning and said he had been out searching all night with the police, and I said because he said these kids have gone missing then in the afternoon he rang up and he said that, at my grandad's, he rang up and said the kids from your school. then he said that the bad thing about it is they are the girls that came and asked about you outside"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM "then he told me the full, what they had said and everything"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you have actually adapted that description to fit the concealed version, haven't you? MAXINE CARR I don't know, I was very mixed up. MR LATHAM the bad thing when he used that expression, pressure, the "bad thing", is what he in fact said to you over the telephone, "The bad thing is, Maxine, they came into the house"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM what you have done here is quite deliberately modified the conversation? MAXINE CARR it wasn't deliberate. MR LATHAM sorry? MAXINE CARR it is not deliberate. MR LATHAM you have used exactly the phrase but applied it to a different description, haven't you? MAXINE CARR No, sir, it was not deliberate. MR LATHAM we'll look at it again? MAXINE CARR I'm sorry I don't care how many times I look at it, it is not deliberate. MR JUSTICE MOSES I'm not sure what you mean by deliberate? MAXINE CARR I wasn't thinking about I'm going to say this or I'm going to say that. MR JUSTICE MOSES it just came out? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM page 54, down at the bottom of the page. "you have a short - a cup of water - what we want to speak to you now about Maxine is Holly and Jessica. okay. and there is some specific things that we need to go over with regard to that. hopefully you can help us. have Holly and Jessica ever been to your house? answer No." Are you sure about that? not inside my house, no? MAXINE CARR meaning not while I was there, sir. MR LATHAM sorry? "no. inside my house? no. not inside your house? they haven't been to my house until Ian told me they had been to the door, that's the first time they had been to my house." it couldn't be plainer, Miss Carr? MAXINE CARR no. to my knowledge they have never been to my house while I have been there. The first time I heard about it was when Ian said he saw them and they came to the door. MR LATHAM Miss Carr, look at that answer, "They haven't been to my house until Ian told me they had been to the door." you are actually referring not only to when you were there but, to you knowledge, what Ian had told you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and what Ian had told you is they had been into your house? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM so it is a lie, isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM 71, the top of the page. "Did you have a lot to do after you came back from up north? well, Ian doesn't know how to use a hoover"? MAXINE CARR that's true. MR LATHAM you knew he had used a hoover while you were away, didn't you? MAXINE CARR no, didn't, not until I heard him say it here. He didn't tell me he hoovered the house when I got back. MR LATHAM it was obvious? MAXINE CARR no, it was not obvious, there was crumbs on the carpet that's not hoovering to me. MR LATHAM "there was not that many. Sadie obviously would have been on heat, but Ian is not going to go round with a scouring pad and clean the bathroom. no, so I had to do that. I had to do the floors and everything, my own washing and I had washing for Ian to do as well." you actually applied your mind in this interview to washing didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes, I had my washing from Grimsby and I had washing Ian had left on the bedroom floor. MR LATHAM what you didn't say while talking about the washing you had to do, was that you had to finish off the washing of the duvet and the duvet cover, did you? MR LATHAM it must have been in your mind at that point because you are actually describing it? MAXINE CARR Yes, I'm describing I had to wash my clothes from Grimsby and Ian's clothes. MR LATHAM you didn't tell them about what was in the washing machine did you? MAXINE CARR no, I didn't. It didn't even come into my mind. it didn't come into my mind, Mr Latham, I'm sorry. MR LATHAM that's a lie? MAXINE CARR no, it is not a lie, sir. MR LATHAM the dusters kept in your home were in the kitchen weren't they? MAXINE CARR Yes under the sink. MR LATHAM under the sink? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM and they were common or garden domestic dusters? MAXINE CARR Yes, I just buy them from the supermarket. MR LATHAM for the first few months when Ian started as a caretaker, you used to spend quite a bit of time going round the school with him didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM of course there would be a lot of cleaning equipment in the school? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM they used to use rather different dusters in the school, didn't they, industrial commercial cloths and dusters, much larger wider? MAXINE CARR yes, tougher ones, yes. MR JUSTICE MOSES tougher or larger? MAXINE CARR tougher, stronger dusters. MR LATHAM look at this duster. that is a domestic duster isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes, looks like it, yes. MR LATHAM (inaudible) domestic duster we are all familiar? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM Those are not the sort of dusters used in the school, are they? MAXINE CARR no, I don't think so, no, no. MR LATHAM you, in the course of the interview, actually discussed Ian being conscious that children shouldn't come into the house didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew how sensitive that was the----? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you knew how sensitive it was to the police officers didn't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM yes. it must have been going through your mind that, sensitive though it was, that the girls have actually been into a strange man's home when he was on his own, was something which would be highly relevant to those police officers now? MAXINE CARR now, yes, yes. MR LATHAM now? MAXINE CARR now I have got time to think, yes, sir, at the time they were trying to say he had murdered these children and he hadn't, they had left the house. MR LATHAM let's look at page 86 to see what you say? He (inaudible) that he doesn't want any contact with the children because of the job. He is very wary? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM "Emily is 14. She loves to come round and see my dog, but Ian doesn't like it if she isn't, if I'm not there. He will tell her to come back later on when I'm there because he doesn't want anybody putting two and two together and getting 6, and thinking well he has just let a girl into this house so I'm always there when there is any, when Emily comes round, and that's just to safeguard himself really"? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM you were putting Ian forward to the police in this interview as a man who wouldn't invite, under any circumstances, a girl into your home, aren't you? MAXINE CARR that's because he normally doesn't. MR LATHAM but you were putting him forward in the context of knowing that the two girls - who by now you have been told had been found dead - had been in your house, invited there by Ian? MAXINE CARR under the circumstances, that he had to have them in, yes. MR LATHAM but you actually are misrepresenting the position to the police, positively misrepresenting it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM page 90, just below the middle of the page. but you love him? you see that question? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM yes, but I wouldn't lie about a murder. I wouldn't lie about two kids that I know? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM "but you have lied in relation to this investigation about the two kids. I'm not lying about it, I have told you the truth now about everything". That was a lie, wasn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR JUSTICE MOSES sorry, Mr Latham, Have you left page 90 or will you be coming back to it as another topic? MR LATHAM no there was the (inaudible) didn't suggest anything to me. MR JUSTICE MOSES something else is concerning me in relation to the last count on the indictment, the conspiracy charge. the answer "I did it because I couldn't see him go through it", which is similar to the answer she gave during - I am sorry to talk about you as "she" but I want you to think about it - "I didn't want Ian arrested and I was looking at the (inaudible) the implication is that may be fairly clear; namely, if she had said something. I think that should be clarified. MR LATHAM you knew on the next page, at page 91, to insist that you are telling the truth, don't you? MAXINE CARR yes. . MR LATHAM the end of your second answer "He was telling me, 'tell them the truth', so I came in and told you"? MAXINE CARR Yes. MR LATHAM then the first hole punch "I have told you everything I know about that, I don't know anything about it"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM that is a lie? MAXINE CARR no, those children left my house, sir. MR LATHAM no, you haven't told the police officers interviewing you everything you know about that, have you? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM page 92. question at the top of the page "I think, as my colleague has said, you need to be very careful. You need to think about your answers before you give them. there are lots of inquiries that have been going on whilst you have been here and we want to get your account of what has been happening because, if all you have done in all of this, is to make that false statement initially, then we can see why you have done that. if inquiries continue as they are, and it transpires that you know something more and you are involved in it, then it is very, very difficult, because assisting somebody in any offence like this, is the same as committing the offence and my colleague has already said to you, are you trying to protect Ian". "No I'm not trying to protect Ian in any shape or form"? MAXINE CARR not against murder. they were trying to issue he was a murderer. I would never protect him against murder. MR LATHAM it couldn't be plainer, could it? MAXINE CARR to you, maybe, sir. MR LATHAM you were asked who wore the trousers in the relationship, weren't you? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM you said, the second hole punch, your relationship "was a team effort"? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM "no-one is any more important than the other". that's the truth, isn't it? MAXINE CARR I tried to do my best for Ian. I support him, he looks after me, he looked after me. MR LATHAM you are quite capable of looking after yourself, aren't you? MAXINE CARR yes, I am, sir. MR LATHAM I have asked you about the clothing and the washing and you have said, although you actually described the washing you did when you got home, you simply forgot or didn't think it was relevant? MAXINE CARR no. MR LATHAM what was in the washing machine, all right? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM page 107 at the bottom, the question 3 from the bottom "was there anything different about the Fiesta? answer "no". Lie? MAXINE CARR Apart from it being clean, no, there wasn't anything different. MR LATHAM sorry, the carpet had been changed. the inside had all been cleaned up. was there anything different about the Fiesta? no. there had been a bit of polish on the dashboard and there is no rubbish on the (inaudible) it had been completely cleaned out, that car, hadn't it? MAXINE CARR it had been cleaned, sir. MR LATHAM sorry? MAXINE CARR it had been cleaned. MR LATHAM it had been completely cleaned out? MAXINE CARR no, I would say it had just been cleaned. MR LATHAM the boot carpet you have told us you spotted the second the door was opened to the boot? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM why don't you mention it then? MAXINE CARR I don't know. MR LATHAM it isn't the first time you had given an answer about the Fiesta in this case, let's go back to page 33. the top of the page, glancing down, a conversation about the Fiesta again, isn't it? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM just above the first hole punch, "So anything that is in there now has been in there for quite a while? been there for quite a while, yes." the thing that struck you as I already suggested the moment the boot was opened was that the carpet was brand new? MAXINE CARR yes. MR LATHAM that was a deli