04/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Thursday, 04 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01
02
MR LATHAM
they wanted it from you too, didn't they, and that's why
you gave the interview, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
they became interested in me because somebody let slip
that I had got a card from Holly.
MR LATHAM
but once they had established that you were in the house
at the time, they wanted to hear your story as well didn't
they?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew why that was, because it was so important,
wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you appreciated that Ian had already made a witness
statement, didn't you, before ever you got back to Soham?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't know he didn't tell me.
MR LATHAM
he didn't tell you he had been seen by the police, made
a witness statement?
MAXINE CARR
no he didn't. That's why I told him to go to the police
about his allegation. he didn't tell me what he had been
doing.
MR LATHAM
you didn't know the police had taken witness statements
from him? You must have appreciated that it wasn't going
to be long before the police were going to be knocking
on the door of number 5?
MAXINE CARR
okay, yes.
MR LATHAM
don't agree with me unless it is right?
MAXINE CARR
I knew they would be interested in Ian because----.
MR LATHAM
here you were announcing if not to the world at large
certainly a significant portion of the local population
on a television interview that you and Ian were in the
house, effectively together, when the instance of the
last sighting of the girls had taken place?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
if you didn't even appreciate that he had ever made a
witness statement to the police and the police did not
actually appreciate that he was such a witness, they were
bound to be coming round to your home, weren't they?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you must have discussed with Ian what you were going to
do if the police came knocking on the door?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, because he never mentioned the police when he
was talking about the lying. it wasn't about the police,
it was "if anybody asks".
MR LATHAM
he would be in a desperate position if they knocked on
the door and you wouldn't back him up when he told his
lying story?
MAXINE CARR
yes, he never mentioned the police.
MR LATHAM
he would have wanted to know from his partner what she
was going to do; he must have wanted to know what you
were going to do?
MAXINE CARR
we just decided I was going to be in the bath.
MR LATHAM
and you were going to say that if the police came round?
MAXINE CARR
he didn't mention the police, the police was never mentioned.
It was, "anybody that asks". it wasn't, "the
police are coming."
MR LATHAM
you knew how serious this all was, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
there were police everywhere, weren't there?
MAXINE CARR
yes, there were was.
MR LATHAM
I come back to the point you are an intelligent woman;
you must have appreciated sooner or later that was going
to be reduced to writing in some sort of formal document,
you must have known that?
MAXINE CARR
sorry, sir, no.
MR LATHAM
is that an appropriate moment?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that is up to you. two o'clock, please.
Hearing
adjourned - will resume after lunch .
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Good Afternoon.
MR LATHAM
Miss Carr, when we broke off an hour ago I understand
you conceded you appreciated that sooner or later a policeman
would be asking on behalf of the investigation what had
gone on on the Sunday evening?
MAXINE CARR
I never really thought that they were going to ask me
anything, I didn't really know because I wasn't involved
in anything, no conversation.
MR LATHAM
it really had not crossed your mind, despite being interviewed,
despite the fact that Ian was being interviewed, despite
the fact that you knew that everyone was saying that he
was likely to be the last person who had seen them. It
never crossed your mind that sooner or later a policeman
would be asking for your version of events?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
because of course on the Friday, the 9th August, a policeman
did come round, didn't he?
MAXINE CARR
yes, he did.
MR LATHAM
the two of you sat down side by side while he went through
a house to house inquiry for each of you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
this was serious, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
it was, yes.
MR LATHAM
this was the time to tell the truth, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
I wasn't allowed to at the time, sir.
MR LATHAM
you were sitting on a sofa in the presence of a policeman,
what do you mean "I wasn't allowed to"?
MAXINE CARR
can I explain what happened in that room? am I allowed
to do that?
MR LATHAM
by all means?
MAXINE CARR
thank you. when the police obviously came in and he said
he was doing house to house and had to fill forms out,
he sat down. There was general chit chat about what happened
before he started talking to Ian. He interviewed Ian first.
Ian said he was outside cleaning the dog and I was upstairs
in the bathroom at the time. I was in the room with him
I could hardly turn round and say no Ian, that's lying.
MR LATHAM
why was the policeman at the house?
MAXINE CARR
He was doing the house to house describing the neighbours,
etcetera.
MR LATHAM
house to house, inquiries, involving what?
MAXINE CARR
giving descriptions of each other,.
MR LATHAM
what was the house to house inquiry concerned with?
MAXINE CARR
the disappearance of Holly and Jessica and if anyone had
seen them.
MR LATHAM
which by now it was about as serious as it could possibly
get, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
this was a policeman who was filling in police forms,
wasn't he?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
and where did you think those forms were going to go when
they had been filled in?
MAXINE CARR
I presumed they were going to be looked through for any
relevant things.
MR LATHAM
They were going to go into the systems, weren't they?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the form he filled in as he spoke to Ian was a form which
contained a major lie, didn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes, it did, yes.
MR LATHAM
indeed it contained two fundamental lies. firstly, it
did not mention that the girls had gone into the house,
did it?
MAXINE CARR
no, it didn't, no.
MR LATHAM
I'm going to go to the other detail, he didn't mention
that general proposition, the girls being in the house?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
and one of them indeed being injured in the sense of having
a nose bleed?
MAXINE CARR
no, it didn't, sir.
MR LATHAM
the fact that girl was bleeding was potentially significant,
wasn't it, the mere fact?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you heard him conceal that from that police officer?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
and then you heard him indicating that, you could corroborate
his story in the sense that you could support the fact,
firstly, that you were in the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and, secondly, of course, that you were in the very room
that might be a sensitive room, namely up having a bath?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't know that at the time, but yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew it was a room the girls had been in, didn't you,
because he had told you?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, but not as a crime.
MR LATHAM
but there was a form being filled out that was going into
the system?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you joined in the deception as his form was being
filled out?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you didn't just sit there mouse-like, horrified at what
was going on, did you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't, sir.
MR LATHAM
one of the things that happened was that the form, in
the context of what the officer was asking was, in one
sense, rather meaningless - what had he been wearing at
the time - wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and he described the shirt he had been wearing?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you weren't there, were you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I wasn't there.
MR LATHAM
you had no idea what shirt he was wearing?
MAXINE CARR
no, but I do his washing at end of the day, sir, and when
I came back from Grimsby Ian normally just dumps his clothes
in the bedroom and there was one set of clothes on the
floor, and he would have been wearing those over the weekend.
MR LATHAM
you argued with him, didn't you, about what was the correct
shirt to put on the form?
MAXINE CARR
because he looked puzzled about what he was wearing, and
I said, "I think you was wearing this", and
he said, "No, I think I was wearing that", and
that's when I said----
MR LATHAM
you joined in the argument and you ended up saying, "I
should know - I do your bloody washing!"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir, I did.
MR LATHAM
you were joining in the deception while his form was being
filled in?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
doing your best to make it convincing?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
lying to a policeman?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
this was not an investigation into driving without a driving
licence, or insurance or driving disqualified or drink
and driving, something like that; this was potentially
literally deadly serious?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
you were asked to fill out or answer the questions in
a separate form that he was filling out for you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and again it wants a question of just having seconds to
think about it. You had been watching what had been going
on and listening to what had been going on while his form
was being filled out?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you continued the deception through to the very end
when that policeman left the house didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew that two formal police documents were going,
as that man left the house, into the system?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the system was therein designed to try and bring this
desperate, desperate situation to an end, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew, didn't you, that there were residents of
Soham who were doing their utmost in any way they possibly
could, to help to try and find these girls?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
to try and help with the identity of whoever it was who
had done anything to these girls?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and there were literally by then, it was on the news,
hundreds of police officers working round the clock desperately
trying to sort the problem out, you knew that?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
you were quite deliberately and knowingly injecting into
the system misinformation weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, but not deliberately like that, I was not stopping
what I believed was the perpetrator.
MR LATHAM
you knew it was going into the system, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were listening to your partner lying and then you
were lying?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
and the joint enterprise the two of you were engaged in
was to convince that man so when he left the house, he
thought the two of you were telling the truth. that was
what you were engaged in, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
on the Saturday, Rachel Dane - I have already touched
upon this - interviewed Ian Huntley, didn't she?
MAXINE CARR
yes in the sitting room, yes.
MR LATHAM
you heard what he said on that occasion, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 7 of the transcripts of the media interviews, "I'm
talking to the----"?
MAXINE CARR
what page is that again, sir ?
MR LATHAM
7?
MAXINE CARR
tab 1?
MR LATHAM
yes. have you got it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
we see Look East, 10th August, this is the Saturday. in
the middle of that first page, Ian Huntley is giving an
account in your hearing what happened to Sadie?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"Sadie is in season,
she had run off, she had disappeared for a few hours and
I had been out all afternoon looking for her. She came
back of her own accord about 20 to 6 looking very messy.
so I was outside on the doorstep brushing her down and
cleaning her up before I would let her into the house".
So you heard him say that?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew that was a lie, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
when he saw the girls that he was washing the dog?
MR LATHAM
you knew that it was a lie when he said that he was brushing
Sadie down on the doorstep and cleaning her up before
he would let her into the house?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't know that was a lie because that's what he told
me he was doing.
MR LATHAM
when you were speaking to his mother when you rang her
from prison, you explained that when you spoke to him
on the telephone at 6.24 in the evening?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were speaking to him and Sadie was in the house with
him?
MAXINE CARR
that's what - yes.
MR LATHAM
he had the television on, that's right isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
that's what I heard, but Ian told me he was actually cleaning
the dog.
MR LATHAM
but I will take you to it, if you like. you know what
I'm talking about don't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I know what I said.
MR LATHAM
there was no sound of anybody in the background, all I
could hear was the TV. He was in the house, he brought
Sadie to the phone and he was going "Sadie come here,
lay down", she was rolling over and I heard her barking,
she was.
MR LATHAM
He was in the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew when you rang at 6.24, which was before the girls
came to the house, Sadie was already allowed by Ian into
the house because you were speaking to him while she was
in the house and he was sorting his supper out and listening
to the television?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, that's what he told me.
MR LATHAM
you knew that on 10th August didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
yet here he was in his interview saying the reason he
was on the doorstep when he saw the girls?
MAXINE CARR
buts that's what he told me he was doing when he saw the
girls.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
let the question be finished.
MR LATHAM
in the interview you were listening to, he was giving
the reason for being outside the house when he saw the
girls that he was cleaning up Sadie because she was too
dirty to be allowed into the house?
MAXINE CARR
right, that's what he had told me he was doing when he
saw the girls.
MR LATHAM
absolutely?
MAXINE CARR
I understand what you mean, I understand the time difference,
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew when you spoke to him that he had already got
Sadie in the house, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
looking now, yes.
MR LATHAM
so you knew he was lying about that, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew he was lying about that and yet that was
the very reason for him having any contact whatsoever
with these girls, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the cause was the contact?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
The reason he was explaining for having the contact with
the girls was a lie?
MAXINE CARR
no, he told me that was what he was doing.
MR LATHAM
it doesn't fit?
MAXINE CARR
I know it doesn't fit now, sir, but at the time it fitted.
MR LATHAM
on the Saturday other officers came to see you after that
Look East interview that you had and that he had?
MAXINE CARR
CID, yes.
MR LATHAM
you must have realised by now, having spoken to the officers
on the house to house inquiry, you must have realised
that the police might well come back and ask you further
questions?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't, sir, when they came to the house they said
they were coming to take a statement from Ian and as the
officer who came into the box, the lady officer, who said
she asked me if I had given a statement and I said yes,
I have, meaning the bobby on the beat man, I thought that's
a statement, and Ian said, no, you haven't made a statement
- you have to make one.
MR LATHAM
by then you had the crib sheet?
MAXINE CARR
the piece of paper?
MR LATHAM
By Saturday you had the crib sheet?
MAXINE CARR
no, the piece of paper, those times and everything was
written after the two officers came to our house on the
Saturday, sir, and that was because I had cocked the story
up, as Ian said.
MR LATHAM
When you were giving that statement to the woman police
officer, you weren't under any pressure from her, were
you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
you were sitting privately with her in the dining room?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
at the dining room table?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
a statement which you gave after she had talked it all
through with you first?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and this was a solemn document, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
this statement, consisting of three pages, "each
signed by me is true to the best of my knowledge and belief"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
"and I make it knowing
that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to
prosecution if I have willfully stated anything which
I know to be false or believe to be untrue"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
you put your signature to that, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I did, sir.
MR LATHAM
"on Sunday, 4th August
I wanted to relax so I had a bath. I believe I got into
the bath about 4.55 time. I was having a soak. after about
20 to 30 minutes, Ian shouted up the dog was dirty and
he would need to bath her. I finished off in the bath
and got out. after about 15 minutes or so Ian came upstairs
and said two girls had just asked about me and said they
were sorry I didn't get the job at the school..."
it goes on but I perhaps do not need to read out any more.
that was false?
MAXINE CARR
yes, it was, sir .
MR LATHAM
you believed it to be false?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
here you were signing it to be true to the best of your
knowledge and belief?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
you signed a declaration that warned you - I make it knowing
if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution
if I have willfully stated anything I know to be false
or do not believe to be true?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
you knew that was going to go into the system?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
something which, on the face of it, anyone who read it
could rely upon?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
but it was a lie?
MAXINE CARR
yes, it was a lie sir.
MR LATHAM
"I asked him who they
were and he said he didn't know, but he described them
as having Man United strips on, one of them had dark hair
and one blonde hair"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
"I thought it was
nice that the girls had asked after me but didn't work
out who they were. I have seen the girls outside of school
before but not together. I didn't think anything more
of it until the police arrived later that evening, saying
someone had gone missing and Ian had to go to the college
to show them round. I haven't seen Holly or Jess since
school broke up." you actually embellished the story
by speaking of the police arriving later in the evening?
MAXINE CARR
using the information that Ian had given me, yes.
MR LATHAM
indeed, you went further in embellishing your story in
describing orally to the police officer the reason that
you spent all the time in the bath, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes that was an actual reason, sir, because on the Sunday,
if you notice, there is phone calls between myself and
Ian Huntley. In the morning I text him saying "I'm
not enjoying my time in Grimsby because I'm having a period".
MR LATHAM
It is an embellishment for having spent so long in the
bath in Soham isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
the person consuming your lies would likely, would they
not, to be more likely to believe simply because of these
embellishments you put into your story?
MAXINE CARR
I suppose so, yes.
MR LATHAM
it makes it all the more believable?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you look the officer in the eye?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know if did or I didn't.
MR LATHAM
when this process was going on - the taking of the statements?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know.
MR LATHAM
you must have talked with her how long - half an hour?
MAXINE CARR
we talked about all sorts of things, commented on the
house, she wanted an ash tray.
MR LATHAM
did you feel comfortable?
MAXINE CARR
how do you feel comfortable talking to the police.
MR LATHAM
if you are honest----
MAXINE CARR
It is still not a nice thing, sir.
MR LATHAM
no doubt Ian wanted to know what you put in your statement?
MAXINE CARR
yes, he did.
MR LATHAM
after the process had finished why didn't you do anything
about what had now happened in the ensuing days?
MAXINE CARR
what do you mean?
MR LATHAM
well, you had injected into the system a description of
events which was wholly false and neglected the investigation
a crucial fact that those girls to your understanding
had actually been in the house, why didn't you do something
about it?
MAXINE CARR
why didn't I go to the police or tell them I had given
a false story?
MR LATHAM
yes?
MAXINE CARR
because of the situation I was in - I didn't want Ian
arrested - that was all about Ian.
MR LATHAM
all about Ian?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
and you?
MAXINE CARR
I have no conscience in that, I had nothing to do with
the girls this (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
you had?
MAXINE CARR
I had no conscience regarding those girls.
MR LATHAM
no conscience?
MAXINE CARR
I'm not talking about lying, I'm talking about what happened
on the Sunday - I wasn't there.
MR LATHAM
that makes it all right, does it?
MAXINE CARR
no, it doesn't make it all right, it makes none of this
all right.
MR LATHAM
you knew from then onward, for the balance of that week,
that Ian was continuing to pedal the lie?
MAXINE CARR
he was talking to a lot of people.
MR LATHAM
continuing to pedal the lie?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and he could do it with confidence because he had you
standing in the background providing him with support?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
and you were quite prepared to look people in the eye
and lie to them, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
because I knew those girls had walked away from that house,
sir, that was the only reason why.
MR LATHAM
what right had you to come to that judgment?
MAXINE CARR
I have no right, sir, all I have is what I feel about,
what I felt about that person.
MR LATHAM
on the 15th you were interviewed by Jeremy Thompson for
Sky News, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 15 of the transcript. this was the Thursday. you
knew the girls were dead didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I did not know the girls were dead.
MR LATHAM
look what you were saying you produced the card, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, Ed Fraser told me to bring the card with me.
MR LATHAM
the middle of the page "This is something-",
ie the card, "-I will probably keep for the rest
of my life?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did you mean by that, why this card suddenly become
some sort of talisman you were going to keep for the rest
of your life?
MAXINE CARR
I was going to keep all the cards the children had sent
me. It was a special time at that time, I enjoyed it very
much.
MR LATHAM
but this card in particular?
MAXINE CARR
this was the card in question, the one I was holding up.
MR LATHAM
it is because you knew it was from a little girl who was
dead?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
you were arrested along with Ian Huntley?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
You were interviewed over a very long period of time weren't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
your first interview at Thorpwood police station started
at 11.41 in the morning on the Saturday?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were interviewed several times, ran into the 18th,
the 19th, and, indeed ended finally at 7 o'clock in the
evening on the 20th August?
MAXINE CARR
yes, that's right.
MR LATHAM
many, many tapes were put into a machine to tape those
interviews, weren't they?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
I do not suggest it is easy- for one moment suggest it
is easy to be interviewed, particularly when you have
been arrested on suspicion of murder. But you had plenty
of time during those days to think about what you were
saying, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, it wasn't thought about. I was in a state of
shock. didn't even want a solicitor when I was taken to
that police station.
MR LATHAM
the first thing that happened, I was going to suggest
that to you, the first thing that happened there wasn't
a solicitor. You didn't ask for a solicitor at the very
first interview, did you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't want one.
MR LATHAM
you had no-one else on any view to tell you what to do,
apart from Ian Huntley, who you say had said to you hours
before you were arrested, "tell the police the truth"?
MAXINE CARR
He kept saying we are going to be arrested and I said
"No we are not going to be, why would we be arrested,
we have not done anything". he said "Look you
will be okay as long as you just go and tell them the
truth".
MR LATHAM
from beginning to end in all those interviews, you said
firstly you had been told to tell the truth and you were
going tell the truth, effectively, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
I was going tell them that I wasn't there then.
MR LATHAM
that was your lie?
MAXINE CARR
pardon?
MR LATHAM
that was your lie with the police?
MAXINE CARR
all my lying ----.
MR LATHAM
I'm going to tell you the truth now?
MAXINE CARR
sorry I the thought you said that was my lie.
MR LATHAM
line, that's right isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the time has come to be in effect frank with you, "I
have told untruths but I'm not going to any more".
that, in effect, is what you were saying to the police?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
in a nutshell, I paraphrased, but that was the attitude
and you kept on coming back to that, hour after hour,
day after day?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
effectively, "Trust me, Maxine, I am now telling
you, the police, the truth"?
MAXINE CARR
I wasn't asking anybody to trust me, I was just asking
them listen to what I had to say.
MR LATHAM
because it was the truth?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
what you did was to leave out absolutely crutial pieces
of information while you were being interviewed, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you left out the fact that the car had all been cleaned
up and the carpet?
MAXINE CARR
sir, that had no relevance to me, they were arresting
me for murdering two children. What has the car got to
do with it.
MR LATHAM
the carpet?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
you did not disclose the carpet had been changed, did
you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
anything that happened in that house from the time you
left it on the Saturday through to the time you came back
to it on the Tuesday, or anything that happened in relation
to Ian Huntley, was potentially relevant, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
no, because those children left the house. You may think
it is relevant now because you have this job, but it wasn't
relevant to me.
MR LATHAM
just confront what I am putting to you. this was by now
a murder inquiry and indeed during the course of those
interviews you knew that the bodies of the girls had been
found, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, I was told sometime Saturday.
MR LATHAM
and you knew that the police were alleging that Ian Huntley
had killed them, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was what they were alleging. you had last seen him
on Saturday morning, were collected Tuesday morning and
were back in Soham on the Tuesday, late afternoon?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew, didn't you, you are not stupid, you knew that
what had been going on between Saturday and Tuesday afternoon
had a potential relevance didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
it was relevant to the police, they wanted to know, yes.
MR LATHAM
and you knew that the car was potentially relevant, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
we'll see about that in a minute, but I'm giving you the
opportunity to wrestle with it before I direct your attention
to something else. you were aware the car was potentially
relevant, that's what I'm suggesting to you?
MAXINE CARR
no, no, I'm sorry.
MR LATHAM
you didn't?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
if you did know the car was potentially relevant, the
fact at the very weekend the girls had gone missing the
fact that the carpet had been changed would be relevant,
wouldn't it?
MAXINE CARR
it would, yes.
MR LATHAM
that it had been all cleaned up, would have been potentially
relevant, wouldn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that Ian Huntley had laundered the bed linen would have
been potentially relevant?
MR LATHAM
you didn't didn't need to be told the car was potentially
relevant to know the bed linen was potentially relevant?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
that bed linen was relevant, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you didn't mention it?
MAXINE CARR
no, they said Ian killed those kids in my house and he
hadn't because they had left.
MR LATHAM
why did you conceal from the police that one of the things
that had been going on in the house was the bed linen?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't conceal it, sir, I didn't conceal it deliberately
if that's what you want to say. when they were asking
me all these things I just kept saying, Ian has not done
this, Ian has not done anything, Ian has not done this.
everything else just went out of the window.
MR LATHAM
I'm going to take you through these interviews?
MAXINE CARR
you can.
MR LATHAM
I'm giving you the opportunity to confront the basics
before I go into it. you weren't just blindly saying he
didn't do it, he didn't do it?
MAXINE CARR
I wasn't going to listen to anything they said because
I knew he had not done anything.
MR LATHAM
so it continued to be fine and dandy did it, to conceal
whatever you chose to conceal simply because you didn't
think he had done it?
MAXINE CARR
you called it concealing, sir, I wasn't thinking about
it.
MR LATHAM
how could you ever have forgotten it?
MAXINE CARR
those children left my house.
MR LATHAM
you had not forgotten?
MAXINE CARR
Those children left my house.
MR LATHAM
you had not forgotten that at least one of those children
to your knowledge had actually sat on the bed? Had you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
during those interviews you had not forgotten that?
MAXINE CARR
no, I hadn't.
MR LATHAM
you had not forgotten the general fact of the girls going
into the house and the movements you have been told about
in the house?
MAXINE CARR
(inaudible).
MR LATHAM
that was in your mind throughout those interviews, wasn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
To be quite honest, no it wasn't, sir.
MR LATHAM
it wasn't?
MAXINE CARR
No, it wasn't. The only piece of information that stayed
in my head the whole time I was being interviewed was
that those girls left that house. They went away happy
and laughing and that's what he said.
MR LATHAM
would you accept from Ian Huntley the proposition it was
broad daylight at midnight, at night? Just because he
says it, does that mean to say you accept it?
MAXINE CARR
not things like that, no. he said they left that house.
people said they had seen them on the High Street at 20
past 7 and other places. they were alive at my house,
because that man said so.
MR LATHAM
I'm going to ask you to look at a transcript would you
like a moment?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
tab 7, please. the first page is the first interview when
you didn't have a solicitor present?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you had made an executive decision that you were going
to say to the police "I'm going to make a clean breast
of it", that's right, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 2, right in the centre of the page, you were asked
by the officer if you understood what the caution meant,
weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"I have got to say
everything, because if I go into court, I can't bring
things out that I have not already said". That you
paraphrase as the meaning of the caution?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
over the page, you explain in a long answer that runs
into the top of page 3 about Ian and the rape allegation
and so on, don't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and at the end of that answer, at the top of the page
"Ian has told me to tell you that". so, sorry
he told you to tell us what? "Just to tell the truth".?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were telling the police you were going to tell the
truth?
MAXINE CARR
he told me to tell them I wasn't well that's why I had
said I was in Soham in the first place.
MR LATHAM
you told them you were going to tell the truth?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and, indeed what I suggest is you simply set off on a
new set of lies?
MAXINE CARR
Sir?
MR LATHAM
withholding all those topics I have been through with
you?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, they never came up. I wasn't thinking of that.
They were saying he is murderer, murderer a rapist all
these things, and I wasn't having it.
MR LATHAM
the bottom of page 3, in fact, one of the first things
I asked you about this morning?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
question "when did you decide told a lie?" you
see that question?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you see your answer over the page?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the first day he rang me on the Monday and he was in absolute
tears?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you told the police in interview that that is when you
had decided you were going to tell the lie, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that's what I put to you this morning that you had spoken
to Ian's mother in October and told her that this conspiracy,
this agreement, to put forward a false story hatched on
the Monday, and that's what you were telling the police,
that's what happened on the Monday, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
look at your long answer that starts two thirds of the
way down the page.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
sorry, I don't know if the "yes" was to accept
what she said or she now accepts that she did say that.
MR LATHAM
do you accept you did make that agreement on the Monday?
MAXINE CARR
no, I believed it was the Tuesday. that's when we talked
about it anyway.
MR LATHAM
the long answer you gave, you were quite prepared to talk
to the police, weren't you? These little short 'yes and
no' answers. you were quite prepared to talk weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
I just wanted them to know everything and get out there
and go and find the right person.
MR LATHAM
you just wanted them to know everything?
MAXINE CARR
I just wanted them to know what was going on and they
should go out and find the right person.
MR LATHAM
let me remind you of what you just said, "I just
wanted them to know everything"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, meaning I wanted them to know what I had one.
MR LATHAM
you say here it was in fact your idea to lie for him?
MAXINE CARR
they were trying to say he was a murderer. I'm not going
to give him any bad things.
MR LATHAM
look at what you say in that long answer "He won't(?)
have any of it, he wouldn't have me saying anything, we
were so upset. Then when the police officer came round,
a lady, I don't know where she came from, when she came
round she took me into another room and then I inaudible).
I just gulped and then he said to me when I come out,
I said 'I told him that I was here'. all the details he
told me I told them. the only thing I said was that I
was in the bath and I weren't in the bath, I weren't in
the house, which is probably a lot really." we have
just been through the chronology, the lady who took the
statement from you was not the first, you had already
started lying to the press, hadn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 5, the second half of the page, question "so
he couldn't come and get you on the Monday? When he rang
me it was the afternoon when he told me who they were.
right. he said he had been out searching for some children
in the morning, but it weren't until the afternoon. I
was at my grandad's until quarter past five and it would
have been about half four when he rang me and told me
that he had - that they were girls from my school and
that they were the girls that he had spoken to. and he
gave me their names and I went home". Pausing there,
you are talking about and describing a particular conversation,
aren't you?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, I am.
MR LATHAM
the one at your grandad's?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the one when he told you that they had been in the house,
they had been upstairs, and one of them had had a nosebleed?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
and you left it out didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes sir.
MR LATHAM
how did you manage to leave it out without realising?
MAXINE CARR
I just didn't want anything more bad said against Ian.
MR LATHAM
so it is quite deliberate the withholding of this information
then is it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it is? did I misunderstand you five minutes ago when you
said the withholding of information during these interviews
was not deliberate it just escaped your mind?
MAXINE CARR
that was when I was talking about, you are talking about
the quilt and things like that. this is the nosebleed.
MR LATHAM
so you made a deliberate decision you were going to continue
to withhold that piece of information during the interviews?
MAXINE CARR
all I did when I was stood there was thinking those girls
left my house. I am wrong for what I have done.
MR LATHAM
Miss Carr, we have already seen by this stage - we are
only at page 5 - that you have been giving long and detailed
answers, you talk half a page without interruption?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
you chose to talk about a conversation which we now know
in the context of this case was a crucial conversation,
wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you recollected that conversation, at the time you
must have done, to be able to give the time and where
you were and so on and so forth. it was a deliberate decision,
as you gave that account, to leave that information out,
wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
the beginning of the next interview which we can see at
page 10, still on the Saturday. you had a solicitor with
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
bottom of page 11. "okay, as I understand it we didn't
ask you too many questions this morning, it was really
just a case of you telling us what you wanted to tell
us. you had a bit of time now to think about it, think
about what you said this morning and what you said yesterday.
is there anything else that you want to mention to us
at the moment in relation to - I know obviously things
were different from the Saturday morning, Tuesday, sort
of afternoon - when you came back you originally said
you were in Soham." so you are specifically being
asked is there anything else, having had a think about
it, that you want to tell us, aren't you?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't particularly think that meant quilts in washing
machines, sir.
MR LATHAM
you have had time to think about "is there anything
else you want to mention to us"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
this is a murder inquiry isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
by a man who I believed at the time had not done it.
MR LATHAM
then, page 44, you actually once again this interview,
describe what I have been calling the crucial telephone
call, do you see the first hole punch?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"in the afternoon
when he rang up at my grandad's on the Monday? yes, yes.
because he rang in the morning and said he had been out
searching all night with the police, and I said because
he said these kids have gone missing then in the afternoon
he rang up and he said that, at my grandad's, he rang
up and said the kids from your school. then he said that
the bad thing about it is they are the girls that came
and asked about you outside"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"then he told me the
full, what they had said and everything"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you have actually adapted that description to fit the
concealed version, haven't you?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know, I was very mixed up.
MR LATHAM
the bad thing when he used that expression, pressure,
the "bad thing", is what he in fact said to
you over the telephone, "The bad thing is, Maxine,
they came into the house"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
what you have done here is quite deliberately modified
the conversation?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't deliberate.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
MAXINE CARR
it is not deliberate.
MR LATHAM
you have used exactly the phrase but applied it to a different
description, haven't you?
MAXINE CARR
No, sir, it was not deliberate.
MR LATHAM
we'll look at it again?
MAXINE CARR
I'm sorry I don't care how many times I look at it, it
is not deliberate.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I'm not sure what you mean by deliberate?
MAXINE CARR
I wasn't thinking about I'm going to say this or I'm going
to say that.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
it just came out?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 54, down at the bottom of the page. "you have
a short - a cup of water - what we want to speak to you
now about Maxine is Holly and Jessica. okay. and there
is some specific things that we need to go over with regard
to that. hopefully you can help us. have Holly and Jessica
ever been to your house? answer No." Are you sure
about that? not inside my house, no?
MAXINE CARR
meaning not while I was there, sir.
MR LATHAM
sorry? "no. inside my house? no. not inside your
house? they haven't been to my house until Ian told me
they had been to the door, that's the first time they
had been to my house." it couldn't be plainer, Miss
Carr?
MAXINE CARR
no. to my knowledge they have never been to my house while
I have been there. The first time I heard about it was
when Ian said he saw them and they came to the door.
MR LATHAM
Miss Carr, look at that answer, "They haven't been
to my house until Ian told me they had been to the door."
you are actually referring not only to when you were there
but, to you knowledge, what Ian had told you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and what Ian had told you is they had been into your house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
so it is a lie, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
71, the top of the page. "Did you have a lot to do
after you came back from up north? well, Ian doesn't know
how to use a hoover"?
MAXINE CARR
that's true.
MR LATHAM
you knew he had used a hoover while you were away, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
no, didn't, not until I heard him say it here. He didn't
tell me he hoovered the house when I got back.
MR LATHAM
it was obvious?
MAXINE CARR
no, it was not obvious, there was crumbs on the carpet
that's not hoovering to me.
MR LATHAM
"there was not that
many. Sadie obviously would have been on heat, but Ian
is not going to go round with a scouring pad and clean
the bathroom. no, so I had to do that. I had to do the
floors and everything, my own washing and I had washing
for Ian to do as well." you actually applied your
mind in this interview to washing didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I had my washing from Grimsby and I had washing Ian
had left on the bedroom floor.
MR LATHAM
what you didn't say while talking about the washing you
had to do, was that you had to finish off the washing
of the duvet and the duvet cover, did you?
MR LATHAM
it must have been in your mind at that point because you
are actually describing it?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, I'm describing I had to wash my clothes from Grimsby
and Ian's clothes.
MR LATHAM
you didn't tell them about what was in the washing machine
did you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't. It didn't even come into my mind. it didn't
come into my mind, Mr Latham, I'm sorry.
MR LATHAM
that's a lie?
MAXINE CARR
no, it is not a lie, sir.
MR LATHAM
the dusters kept in your home were in the kitchen weren't
they?
MAXINE CARR
Yes under the sink.
MR LATHAM
under the sink?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and they were common or garden domestic dusters?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, I just buy them from the supermarket.
MR LATHAM
for the first few months when Ian started as a caretaker,
you used to spend quite a bit of time going round the
school with him didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
of course there would be a lot of cleaning equipment in
the school?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
they used to use rather different dusters in the school,
didn't they, industrial commercial cloths and dusters,
much larger wider?
MAXINE CARR
yes, tougher ones, yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
tougher or larger?
MAXINE CARR
tougher, stronger dusters.
MR LATHAM
look at this duster. that is a domestic duster isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes, looks like it, yes.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible) domestic duster we are all familiar?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
Those are not the sort of dusters used in the school,
are they?
MAXINE CARR
no, I don't think so, no, no.
MR LATHAM
you, in the course of the interview, actually discussed
Ian being conscious that children shouldn't come into
the house didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew how sensitive that was the----?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew how sensitive it was to the police officers didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
yes. it must have been going through your mind that, sensitive
though it was, that the girls have actually been into
a strange man's home when he was on his own, was something
which would be highly relevant to those police officers
now?
MAXINE CARR
now, yes, yes.
MR LATHAM
now?
MAXINE CARR
now I have got time to think, yes, sir, at the time they
were trying to say he had murdered these children and
he hadn't, they had left the house.
MR LATHAM
let's look at page 86 to see what you say? He (inaudible)
that he doesn't want any contact with the children because
of the job. He is very wary?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"Emily is 14. She
loves to come round and see my dog, but Ian doesn't like
it if she isn't, if I'm not there. He will tell her to
come back later on when I'm there because he doesn't want
anybody putting two and two together and getting 6, and
thinking well he has just let a girl into this house so
I'm always there when there is any, when Emily comes round,
and that's just to safeguard himself really"?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
you were putting Ian forward to the police in this interview
as a man who wouldn't invite, under any circumstances,
a girl into your home, aren't you?
MAXINE CARR
that's because he normally doesn't.
MR LATHAM
but you were putting him forward in the context of knowing
that the two girls - who by now you have been told had
been found dead - had been in your house, invited there
by Ian?
MAXINE CARR
under the circumstances, that he had to have them in,
yes.
MR LATHAM
but you actually are misrepresenting the position to the
police, positively misrepresenting it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 90, just below the middle of the page. but you love
him? you see that question?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
yes, but I wouldn't lie about a murder. I wouldn't lie
about two kids that I know?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"but you have lied
in relation to this investigation about the two kids.
I'm not lying about it, I have told you the truth now
about everything". That was a lie, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
sorry, Mr Latham, Have you left page 90 or will you be
coming back to it as another topic?
MR LATHAM
no there was the (inaudible) didn't suggest anything to
me.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
something else is concerning me in relation to the last
count on the indictment, the conspiracy charge. the answer
"I did it because I couldn't see him go through it",
which is similar to the answer she gave during - I am
sorry to talk about you as "she" but I want
you to think about it - "I didn't want Ian arrested
and I was looking at the (inaudible) the implication is
that may be fairly clear; namely, if she had said something.
I think that should be clarified.
MR LATHAM
you knew on the next page, at page 91, to insist that
you are telling the truth, don't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes. .
MR LATHAM
the end of your second answer "He was telling me,
'tell them the truth', so I came in and told you"?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
then the first hole punch "I have told you everything
I know about that, I don't know anything about it"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that is a lie?
MAXINE CARR
no, those children left my house, sir.
MR LATHAM
no, you haven't told the police officers interviewing
you everything you know about that, have you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
page 92. question at the top of the page "I think,
as my colleague has said, you need to be very careful.
You need to think about your answers before you give them.
there are lots of inquiries that have been going on whilst
you have been here and we want to get your account of
what has been happening because, if all you have done
in all of this, is to make that false statement initially,
then we can see why you have done that. if inquiries continue
as they are, and it transpires that you know something
more and you are involved in it, then it is very, very
difficult, because assisting somebody in any offence like
this, is the same as committing the offence and my colleague
has already said to you, are you trying to protect Ian".
"No I'm not trying to protect Ian in any shape or
form"?
MAXINE CARR
not against murder. they were trying to issue he was a
murderer. I would never protect him against murder.
MR LATHAM
it couldn't be plainer, could it?
MAXINE CARR
to you, maybe, sir.
MR LATHAM
you were asked who wore the trousers in the relationship,
weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you said, the second hole punch, your relationship "was
a team effort"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"no-one is any more
important than the other". that's the truth, isn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
I tried to do my best for Ian. I support him, he looks
after me, he looked after me.
MR LATHAM
you are quite capable of looking after yourself, aren't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I am, sir.
MR LATHAM
I have asked you about the clothing and the washing and
you have said, although you actually described the washing
you did when you got home, you simply forgot or didn't
think it was relevant?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
what was in the washing machine, all right?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 107 at the bottom, the question 3 from the bottom
"was there anything different about the Fiesta? answer
"no". Lie?
MAXINE CARR
Apart from it being clean, no, there wasn't anything different.
MR LATHAM
sorry, the carpet had been changed. the inside had all
been cleaned up. was there anything different about the
Fiesta? no. there had been a bit of polish on the dashboard
and there is no rubbish on the (inaudible) it had been
completely cleaned out, that car, hadn't it?
MAXINE CARR
it had been cleaned, sir.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
MAXINE CARR
it had been cleaned.
MR LATHAM
it had been completely cleaned out?
MAXINE CARR
no, I would say it had just been cleaned.
MR LATHAM
the boot carpet you have told us you spotted the second
the door was opened to the boot?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
why don't you mention it then?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know.
MR LATHAM
it isn't the first time you had given an answer about
the Fiesta in this case, let's go back to page 33. the
top of the page, glancing down, a conversation about the
Fiesta again, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
just above the first hole punch, "So anything that
is in there now has been in there for quite a while? been
there for quite a while, yes." the thing that struck
you as I already suggested the moment the boot was opened
was that the carpet was brand new?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was a deliberate lie?
MAXINE CARR
no, it was not a deliberate lie, sir.
MR LATHAM
what was it?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know really, I was talking to the police, he was
asking me questions and I was just thinking on the spot.
I was not telling him lies, sir.
MR LATHAM
You were talking to the police, they were asking you questions,
you found it perfectly possible to answer the questions
in huge detail?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you didn't tell them, when they asked if the car had
in any way changed, about the boot carpet?
MAXINE CARR
I did not.
MR LATHAM
that was a lie?
MAXINE CARR
no, it was not a lie. I just didn't say it.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
didn't what?
MAXINE CARR
I just didn't say it, didn't lie about it, it just didn't
come into my head.
MR LATHAM
page 120, you are being asked about the house to house
inquiries at this point, and how you felt when that policeman
left?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
all right. then it's four answers in "at the time
I believed you" - presumably the police - "were
going to find something that you, your police officers,
were going to find somebody, somebody, some evidence and
something for, you know, somebody else and it would be
irrelevant. what? Your lie would be irrelevant? yes. so
that is how you justified it to yourself did you? that's
how I justified it to myself, yes"?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
that's the logic you have been explaining to this jury
today, isn't it, and indeed yesterday afternoon?
MAXINE CARR
they were going to go and find something else, yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you didn't, I am afraid, didn't hear the answer?
MAXINE CARR
that they were going to go out and find somebody else,
yes.
MR LATHAM
it was your judgment that they would find somebody else,
wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
I strongly, well that was the only thing I did believe.
MR LATHAM
notwithstanding that they were operating, the police,
on a false premise, weren't they?
MAXINE CARR
sir, all I thought about was those girls leaving the house.
MR LATHAM
page 12, 1 the second ring binder "What did Ian say
when the policeman left? 'You shouldn't have done that'"
- but you had agreed that you were going to tell a lying
story and, indeed had started to advance that story to
the press before that policeman ever came to your house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
page 148, you were asked about the crib sheet, weren't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
the first ring binder "I wanted to protect him from
the past, not from the present or the future or whatever.
Okay. so who wrote it down? me. did you? yes. where did
you write? on a piece of paper which was in the hi-fi
cabinet. why? I wanted to make sure I got it right. that's
a photocopy there. yes. of a piece of paper found in your
house. yes. who wrote that? me . would you like to read
it out, it says, yes - 4.5 to 5 p.m., got in - can't read
my own writing - got in what, got in bath. approximately
5.40 to 45, dog home, and so on." the officer continues
"okay so why did you decide to say that you were
in the bath? I don't know, I couldn't exactly say that
I was on the front door step, could I? no but you could
have been anywhere else in the house couldn't you? yes.
whose idea was it - you were in the bath? mine."
that sequence of questions and answers was a persistent
lie, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
when you stumbled over his handwriting you even made a
joke of didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
I was very frightened at the time.
MR LATHAM
"can't read my own
writing"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you are quite capable of telling convincing lies?
MAXINE CARR
yes it looks so, yes.
MR LATHAM
"it is only----"
- we go over the page to page 149 in the middle of the
page - "----when you were confronted with the officers
having worked out that it wasn't your writing that you
were forced to concede that you were lying"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
up until that point you were quite prepared to go on talking
to them in a wholly false premise in relation to the cribs
note?
MAXINE CARR
I couldn't let him down.
MR LATHAM
indeed. In relation to that crib note you had actually
told the police it was your idea to write it down, haven't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I didn't want him to look any worse than they were
trying to make out he looked. I couldn't let him down,
sir.
MR LATHAM
you were assisting him as best you could, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
not for murder, no.
MR LATHAM
you were assisting him in every way possible during this
interview, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
I was trying to make him look better.
MR LATHAM
you knew by then the police were alleging he was a murderer?
MAXINE CARR
but he wasn't, yes, they were alleging that, but he wasn't
- in my mind.
MR LATHAM
you were still doing your best to assist him in this interview?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
notwithstanding you knew the police were suggesting he
was a murderer - that he had actually killed these girls?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't believe that.
MR LATHAM
then seven or eight lines from the bottom, page 149, "Maxine,
he did this because there was something to hide. that's
on the crib sheet. there wasn't anything to hide. why
do you need an alibi, Maxine, if there is nothing to hide?"
you go back to the rape allegation, don't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
in this interview you are hiding the central point, namely
that the girls came into the house - still hiding that
aren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
152, the second hole punch - "Did you come back to
help Ian? I didn't come back to help Ian, I came back
for me"?
MAXINE CARR
that's true.
MR LATHAM
you have said in terms that you didn't want to come home,
he was the one asking you to come back?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't come back to help him.
MR LATHAM
but you did?
MAXINE CARR
I did when I got back, yes.
MR LATHAM
as soon as you got back you started covering up for him
didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, but that wasn't the reason I came back.
MR LATHAM
over the page four lines down "I wanted to be back
in the area to know what was going on with these kids.
You come back, you are planning on giving him an alibi?
yes, I was planning to give him an alibi, to say I was
there, that he was in the house, that I was in the house".
You are saying in terms that that is the reason you came
back to Soham?
MAXINE CARR
no, it wasn't.
MR LATHAM
so that's a lie in interview?
MAXINE CARR
no, it is just the way it has come out in interview.
MR LATHAM
in the middle of the page in terms they say, allege, "That's
what we found. Maxine, a false alibi, you say that's nothing?"
MAXINE CARR
they were saying 'murderder' - I wanted evidence, proof
that this man had murdered those children. It wasn't saying
what he had done was nothing.
MR LATHAM
"its nothing? nothing.
it is, it is a false alibi. well it is to you, yes, it
is nothing to me. Ian just wrote down because I, at the
time, was going to lie to the police which I'm not lying
to the police now"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were continuing to lie, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
as and when it was appropriate in these interviews you
were still continuing to lie?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you go on "it is a false alibi Maxine. fine it is
in, if that's all you have got then, it is not a lot,
is it?" Of course you had got some more up your sleeve,
hadn't you?
MAXINE CARR
what do you mean?
MR LATHAM
all the other knowledge you had, which was not coming
out in this interview?
MAXINE CARR
I was asking them, I was not asking, I was asking about
evidence that he had murdered these children. that was
what the whole conversation was about.
MR LATHAM
back at page 1 54 "I can't tell you any more because
I don't know any more." you were continuing to insist
with your telling the police everything you knew, weren't
you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew, didn't you, by this stage in the interview,
you had been told by the police that fingerprints of Ian's
had been found on the bag that contained the clothes?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
or was over the bag of cloths in the bin?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew?
MAXINE CARR
yes I did.
MR LATHAM
You knew two bodies had been found, clothes had been found?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and his fingerprints associated with the clothes?
MAXINE CARR
yes, that's what they said.
MR LATHAM
you were still lying and still concealing information?
MAXINE CARR
he had not killed those children.
MR LATHAM
indeed, you began running the very defence for Ian Huntley
that he was to rehearse when he talked his mother when
in Woodhill Prison, do you appreciate that?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know what you mean.
MR LATHAM
let's just look, bottom of 156 "not any old bag,
Maxine, the bag with Holly and Jess's Man United shirts."
you interrupt and say "How do you know that's not
a bag from the school. That somebody else had access to
as well as Ian. just because his prints are on it don't
mean to say he has not carried out round like you said
about the ripping motion"?
MAXINE CARR
yes I was trying to ----.
MR LATHAM
you heard the transcript of the conversation Ian and his
mother had in October didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
one of the things he was doing was trying to explain away
what the fingerprints were doing on the bag?
MAXINE CARR
I don't know.
MR LATHAM
it is pretty much that explanation you are giving in that
interviews?
MAXINE CARR
no, sir, they told me it could have been my fingerprints
on that bag and they explained the motion in the kitchen
of how you rip it off a roll, and I was saying I want
to know about these fingerprints, they might not be his
fingerprints - I was trying to think of any reason why
those fingerprints had got on that bag.
MR LATHAM
at the bottom of page 157, "How many of these people
have access to Soham Village College? you say, Ian and
everybody else, because that college is open for public
use. not the hangar isn't, is it? it's open to flipping
teachers and everything else, isn't it?" you were
putting forward that many other people had access to that
hangar, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, because he had not killed those children and I wanted
them to find the person who had.
MR LATHAM
had Sadie to your knowledge ever been in the bath at 5
College Close before Ian was to describe to you she was
put in the bath on the Sunday night?
MAXINE CARR
no, I have never known of her going in the bath.
MR LATHAM
this was a unique experience for Sadie as far as you are
aware, was it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
talking about College Close where you had been living
for months; Sadie had never been put in the bath at College
Close before, had she?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
did that not raise an eyebrow when you were listening
to this explanation that he was giving to you about how
the bath came to be broken over the very weekend that
the girls were in the house?
MAXINE CARR
no, I - she has been messed up before, she has been washed
in the bath before and she is a fat dog.
MR LATHAM
never in College Close before?
MAXINE CARR
she had never been washed in there as far as I know.
MR LATHAM
page 160, "If you know anything about this, Maxine,
you owe it to yourself and you owe it to Ian and, more
importantly, you owe it Holly and Jessica." that
was an appeal to your conscience, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
I can't even see what you are talking about, sorry.
MR LATHAM
The bottom of page 160.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
are you feeling able to concentrate or do you want a break?
MAXINE CARR
I'm fine, thank you.
MR LATHAM
it was an appeal to your conscience, wasn't it, being
underlined, central to all this were Holly and Jessica?
MAXINE CARR
yes, they were and they walked away from my house alive
and well, so----
MR LATHAM
"I haven't got anything
to say about anything because I don't know anything. I
can't help them, I don't know anything". But you
did. And you didn't help?
MAXINE CARR
they left that house.
MR LATHAM
page 162, the bottom of the page "You might think
I want, I would not tell you anything. I would not tell
you if Ian had done something like this and I knew. I
wouldn't want to be with this person. all I knew is he
was acquitted of something which to me means nothing,
I'm not that wrapped up in Ian. I love Ian, yes, but I'm
not wrapped up enough to let him do anything, would anybody?
And then sit back and let parents on the television go
through what they are bloody going through." Yet
you too refuse to give the police crucial information?
MAXINE CARR
you called it "crucial information" now sir.
I know it is crucial information now, but at the time
I did not. those children left that house and that's all
that I hold on to.
MR LATHAM
over the page, the middle of the page "Did he tell
you about these girls, apart from the fact that they called
round? he told me what they said. he was the last person
to speak to them; just told me what they had said to him.
asked about me. see if I was all right or something And
do you believe that? yes, I believe. what else can I believe?"
You didn't believe just that because you knew a great
deal more, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
165 "I have helped you but I haven't done anything.
is there anything else you want to add to that which you
have said already Maxine. any of those questions we have
not asked that you haven't answered. what questions? that
perhaps you ought to. What questions I haven't answered?
well, if you don't get asked questions, you don't always
volunteer the answer, do you? oh no, no, nothing. no.
you being straight with us now? yes, I am being straight
with you". Lie, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't a lie, I hadn't murdered those kids, that's
what they were saying to me "you murdered those children",
and I hadn't.
MR LATHAM
it wasn't what was being spoken of at that point Miss
Carr?
MAXINE CARR
he asked if I had done anything to those children and
I hadn't.
MR LATHAM
"any of those questions
we have not asked that you haven't answered. what questions
I haven't answered", you ask. "well if you don't
get ask the question you don't always volunteer the answer,
do you? oh no, no, nothing, no. Are you being straight
with us? yes I'm being straight with you". it couldn't
be plainer, you were telling a lie to those two police
officers?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't a lie. it wasn't a lie.
MR LATHAM
You knew how important it was, that failure to provide
information to the police because it was a topic of conversation
with his mother when you spoke to her on the telephone,
wasn't? we listened to it this morning part of that conversation,
didn't we ?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and, indeed, his mother was genuinely shocked, wasn't
she, it was obvious she was shocked when you revealed
to her for the first time that the girls had actually
been into the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
she didn't have to think about it, she responded to the
the news instantly - you gave it over the telephone, we
heard?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
her tone of voice. you made it clear it was deliberately
withheld, that knowledge, from the police, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
which part was that?
MR LATHAM
the bottom of page 4 of the transcript, the last tab in
the bundle, the first transcript. second hole punch, "I
said I knew who they were". He said, "Yes, but
Maxine, they came in our house". That's quoting Ian,
isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"they came in the
house? yes. They did come in the house. I told my solicitor
that but I - my solicitor has told me not to say anything"?
MAXINE CARR
that was after the Paddington Green incident.
MR LATHAM
you were not given those instructions. I do not want to
go into your relationship with your solicitor, I'm not
entitled to, do you understand?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you are not suggesting you were advised to withhold that
during the days of interview when you were first arrested?
MAXINE CARR
no, not when I was first arrested - after I had spoken
to my solicitor.
MR LATHAM
it was your decision to withhold it, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
the first one, yes.
MR LATHAM
you have said that you were upset in that first telephone
conversation with his mother. you weren't upset when you
had the second conversation with her on (inaudible) October?
MAXINE CARR
I can't really remember without looking at it.
MR LATHAM
have you found the transcript? you were completely calm
in this I suggest, I do not want to trouble you with the
tape. in fact, it was Lynda who was upset, not you because
Ian had slammed the phone down on you earlier that day.
Do you remember how the conversation started? it is the
bottom of page 1, "Things aren't good this end at
all", and you say, over the page, "Oh, you are
not, you are joking. no. Ian slammed the phone down on
me today. why? because I have got to tell the police everything,
Maxine". And your reaction to that is "Oh, God."
of course you had told her in the telephone conversation
we have just looked at, you have told her about the additional
piece of information you had had all along from before
ever you got back to Soham, hadn't you, and she was saying
she was going to tell the police everything?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
which was going to put you in real difficulty, wasn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
it wasn't about me, sir.
MR LATHAM
the bottom of the page "It is Wayne that started
it. but some of this information has been so crucial to
the police" - and you agreed, didn't you? "yes,
yes. I don't mean, I was really hoping would have told
them a lot of it. I don't think you have, have you? the
only thing I haven't told is that they came into the house.
that's the only thing I haven't told". that and the
boot carpet and the Fiesta and the washing in the washing
machine?
MAXINE CARR
no, that wasn't relevant to me. it is relevant in this
Court Room now I have seen the evidence, but it wasn't
at the time.
MR LATHAM
you knew by then Ian had been charged with murder?
MAXINE CARR
yes I did.
MR LATHAM
you had not been charged with murder, had you?
MAXINE CARR
no I had been arrested and then they dropped it, I think.
MR LATHAM
at the time of this conversation, you had not been charged,
you were never charged with murder, were you?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR LATHAM
indeed, over the page at page 3 between five minutes 12
seconds and 5 minutes 20 seconds, you agreed it doesn't
look good?
MAXINE CARR
yes it doesn't look good.
MR LATHAM
when you look at all the information it didn't look good,
did it?
MAXINE CARR
no it didn't look good because of ----.
MR LATHAM
you had that information the time you got to Soham on
the Tuesday?
MAXINE CARR
if you mean (inaudible) did think he killed them.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
didn't really understand that answer?
MAXINE CARR
I'm trying to understand what he is actually asking me.
MR LATHAM
the information, the crucial information ----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
pause there, does anybody want a break? you are going
to finish this afternoon? I want to have a word with counsel.
It is going to be about 15 minutes. we'll let the jury
out first than you can sit down.
{short
adjournment}.
MR LATHAM
I was asking you about the last transcript, this the second
of your telephone conversations with his mother, page
3?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
between 5 minutes 12 seconds and 5 minutes twenty seconds,
you have both given all you know about him, say it just
doesn't look good. that's right, isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you are both agreeing with that. you were still writing
him letters at that stage, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I was.
MR LATHAM
do I take it I don't need to refer you to the point in
this transcript where, again, you reiterate that what
he said to you was that it was the girl with the dark
hair who had the nosebleed?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
he has always said that, hasn't he?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you ended up, having of course revealed to his mother
that the children had come into the house, you ended up
in this telephone call discussing that fact and why they
had ended up upstairs didn't you? page 7. "then in
the afternoon it was, then he said the worse thing, Maxine,
they came to the house, in the house, and I asked him
last, what do you mean they came in the house?" you
were as horrified when he first told you, as his mother
was when you first told her?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you were appalled when he said to you before ever you
set off back to Soham, that they had come into the house?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I was very worried about it.
MR LATHAM
"do you know he took
them upstairs? yes, yes. But what I can't, I mean, - I
know, I know, because that's what I asked. because he
said, he said that he - the kitchen was a mess. Is that
what he said to you? um, he told me the kitchen sink was
a mess. but if he just wanted cold water and a bit of
tissue...". And you said "yes"?
MAXINE CARR
I was agreeing ----.
MR LATHAM
she goes on, "It wouldn't matter if the sink was
a mess."
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
this was two women talking over the phone, two women who
know each other?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you thought his explanation about why it was necessary
to take the girls upstairs just wouldn't work didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
after I had had time to think about it, not at the time,
no.
MR LATHAM
you had had days, with respect, to think about it, between
Tuesday, or Monday afternoon, the 5th, and the day of
your arrest, apart from anything else?
MAXINE CARR
no, it never came into that, after that we had been accused,
charged with murder. That was when I had to start asking
questions.
MR LATHAM
any woman I suggest to you, you certainly thought about
it and discussed it with Lynda, would have immediately
appreciated the business about the sink and water going
upstairs and so on?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you thought about it during that fortnight didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't, sir.
MR LATHAM
the 12.31, "Maxine why didn't you tell the police
this"? it was an obvious thing to tell the police,
wasn't it? that's what she is saying to you, "why
didn't you tell the police this"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"because honestly,
they didn't, just didn't ask me." we have been through
it this afternoon over and over again, they asked you,
is there anything else you need to tell us, Maxine, and
you said no?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
"I didn't know what
to say. I didn't know what to say". It was on your
mind during those interviews, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
I was scared to tell them.
MR LATHAM
scared to tell them? and you knew how significant it was,
didn't you? look at 12.55 on that page. in effect, if
you did tell the police, "otherwise it would end
up me going into court and testifying against Ian, saying,
well, he told me that". You envisaged, didn't you,
if you revealed it to the police, you would end up giving
evidence against Ian Huntley?
MAXINE CARR
it would look bad, yes, it would add----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
it would add?
MAXINE CARR
like petrol to the fire sort of thing.
MR LATHAM
because it was so highly significant, wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
I see what you mean, said his mother, and you said "and
that I, I can't do that, you know". You wanted to
protect him at all costs, didn't you?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't want him to be charged of something he hadn't
done.
MR LATHAM
you keep saying "that he hadn't done." by now
you are analysing it with his mother and you are still
saying you won't tell anyone, and you are still saying
that I can't, because I would end up having to give evidence
against him?
MAXINE CARR
I still didn't believe he had done this.
MR LATHAM
your reaction when he first told you is to be found on
the last page of this transcript isn't it? 18.07 "He
is just, I, because I said to him what the hell were you
doing Ian, letting two girls - it is against his job.
that's what I, that's what I said. it's against the rules
of his job", and so on?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was your reaction when he first told you, wasn't
it?
MAXINE CARR
it was.
MR LATHAM
you chose to express a particular matter in this way,
Miss Carr, so I come back to it as it was your choice.
you said Holly was "a little angel", didn't
you ?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you said it in this Court Room; we know you said it to
the press?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
in this Court Room you went so far as to say you were
trying to have a baby with Ian, and if you had a baby
you would have liked to have had a daughter like Holly?
MAXINE CARR
yes, she is a fine child, yes.
MR LATHAM
Can I remind you what is alleged against you on count
5 in the indictment "interferes with the course of
justice." you understand that a police investigation
is a course of public justice, don't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
and that to feed a police investigation false information
can have a tendency, a tendency to make that investigation
stumble, can't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it could send the police off in a different direction,
couldn't it?
MAXINE CARR
Yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
it could send them off in a different direction?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
when you told those lies both orally and in writing to
the police, and disseminated (inaudible) by having them
broadcast, you agree that had a tendency to do precisely
what I just mentioned?
MAXINE CARR
yes?
MR LATHAM
you did it deliberately that your lies weren't accidental
- they were deliberate?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you understand that you can't be the judge during a police
investigation of whether something is worth investigating
or not. you understand that, don't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes, I do.
MR LATHAM
because you may not theoretically have the full facts.
the police may know something you don't?
MAXINE CARR
in this case obviously I didn't have the full facts.
MR LATHAM
if you are feeding a particular line to the police which
is wrong, that has a tendency to skew their investigation
doesn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
in doing what you did you intended the police to go off
in a different direction, didn't you, not to look at Ian?
MAXINE CARR
I wanted them to go to find the right person, which I
believed was out there.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
pause there. please think about - that is not actually
an answer to the question - it is important.
MR LATHAM
you didn't want them to look at Ian, did you?
MAXINE CARR
no, I didn't, no.
MR LATHAM
that was your intention, that they shouldn't look at Ian,
wasn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
by telling those lies you were intending to achieve that
very end, weren't you?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
it is page 91 of your interview. just about the second
hole "I didn't want the finger to be pointed at Ian
because at that point Ian was the last person to have
seen them"?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
you intended to pervert the police investigation, didn't
you?
MAXINE CARR
I didn't think it was that I was doing that, sir. I didn't
think that at the time. I thought they was going to go
out and find somebody else.
MR LATHAM
you did it by agreement with Ian Huntley, didn't you,
the two of you agreed to pursue this false story?
MAXINE CARR
yes, sir.
MR LATHAM
given all the clues that you either were provided by him
or that you picked up when you came back to your home
on Tuesday, there came a point when you believed he killed
those girls?
MAXINE CARR
no, no sir, that's wrong. no.
MR LATHAM
you were so obsessed by him and so obsessed with preserving
the relationship and your home and your future?
MAXINE CARR
Yes.
MR LATHAM
That you made a decision to tell us in order to divert
attention away from him?
MAXINE CARR
not, not against him being a murderer, no.
MR LATHAM
you knew he would end up being looked at very very seriously
by the police. If you revealed what you in fact knew,
don't you and you knew it at time?
MAXINE CARR
I thought it would look bad, yes.
MR LATHAM
you knew the police would be looking at him very very
carefully if you revealed what you in fact knew. that's
right isn't it?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR LATHAM
and because you knew there was nothing to be done for
those two girls?
MAXINE CARR
no, that's not right sir.
MR LATHAM
you were prepared to tell those lies?
MAXINE CARR
no. no, those girls were out there, they walked away from
my house alive.
MR LATHAM
you had been a persistent liar from Tuesday morning onwards,
haven't you?
MAXINE CARR
I accept that yes, sir.
(Re-examined
by MR HUBBARD)
MR HUBBARD
couple of minutes and you will be done. Mr Latham has
suggested to you that by Tuesday evening the 6th, you
had worked it out that the children were dead?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR HUBBARD
and that Ian Huntley was responsible?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR HUBBARD
let's just examine that. did you sleep in the same bed
as Ian Huntley on that Tuesday night?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and on Wednesday and Thursday and the following days up
to your eventual arrest?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR HUBBARD
would you have been in the same bed?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR HUBBARD
if you believed for a moment that he had unlawfully killed
those children?
MAXINE CARR
I wouldn't be in the same house as him.
MR HUBBARD
let's go on one step further in the light of this suggestion.
it is suggested against you that you knew the bathroom
had significance. did you use that bathroom on the Tuesday,
Wednesday and successive nights?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR HUBBARD
to bathe in?
MAXINE CARR
yes.
MR HUBBARD
would you have dared used that bath ?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR HUBBARD
If you knew one of the girls had been drowned in it?
MAXINE CARR
no.
MR HUBBARD
we have a short witness, may we call her.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
she has been hanging around. there you are, ladies and
gentlemen, do you mind. she has come from Grimsby.
MR HUBBARD
Mrs Gibb. I am told she us upstairs. I don't intend to
be more than four or five minutes in chief.
(Lisa Gibb SWORN)
Examined by MR HUBBARD
MR HUBBARD
Lisa Louisa Gibb?
LISA GIBB
yes.
MR HUBBARD
I did you an injustice just now, I said you came from
Grimsby, you don't, do you?
LISA GIBB
No I don't no, not originally.
MR HUBBARD
you live in Leeds?
LISA GIBB
yes I do, yes.
MR HUBBARD
you know Mr Huntley and Maxine Carr?
LISA GIBB
I do, yes.
MR HUBBARD
you know them because I think you lived close to them?
LISA GIBB
yes.
MR HUBBARD
in Scunthorpe?
LISA GIBB
yes.
MR HUBBARD
for a year or so?
LISA GIBB
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and that you have quite a lot to do with each other?
LISA GIBB
Yes, I did, yes.
MR HUBBARD
you and your husband?
LISA GIBB
I have not got a husband, no.
MR HUBBARD
did you visit her at her house?
LISA GIBB
yes, I did, yes.
MR HUBBARD
I want to ask you about what sort of housewife she was
like in the sense of cleaning and dusting and doing all
those sort of things?
LISA GIBB
basically - sorry, basically, you wouldn't find nothing
her house dirty, nothing. you went for a cup of coffee
- the cup was gone by the time you had finished. The house
was immaculate, it really was immaculate.
MR HUBBARD
did you ever see her doing the housework?
LISA GIBB
yes, not when I was and afterwards sort of thing.
MR HUBBARD
how frequently would she clean her house?
LISA GIBB
every day.
MR HUBBARD
what sort of housework?
LISA GIBB
scrub the tiles, skirting board, if the dog had made a
mess, scrub the carpets, the house was all, I don't know
if you can understand, like, I was in the forces and it
was----
MR HUBBARD
you were in the forces?
LISA GIBB
yes.
MR HUBBARD
in the Army, I think?
LISA GIBB
yes, like doing a march out - they use a toothbrush sort
of thing, that's how spotless the house was.
MR HUBBARD
thank you.
MR LATHAM
I have no questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
my Lord, that completes the case for Maxine Carr.
MR COWARD
my Lord, in the case of Mr Huntley, there are admissions.
I am more than happy to deal with them now.
(DISCUSSION IN ABSENCE OF JURY)
(IN THE JURY'S PRESENCE)
MR JUSTICE MOSES
there are admissions, parts of the evidence not in dispute.
MR COWARD
members of the Jury, copies will be provided on Monday
morning. Mr Latham gives his speech, but I will read them
out now. 1, on 30th June 1998 the Crown Prosecution Service
discontinued an allegation of rape against Ian Kevin Huntley
2, until Ian Kevin Huntley entered a guilty plea to the
count of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice on
this indictment, he had no previous convictions recorded
against him as either Ian Kevin Huntley or Ian Kevin Nixon
3, as at 23rd October 2002, no evidence had been served
or disclosed by the prosecution to the effect that Holly
Marie Wells was susceptible to nose bleeds, 4, the last
recorded incidence of a nose bleed of Holly Marie Wells
was 9th July 1997 5, no police officer or anyone connected
to the prosecution has any record or recollection of Patricia
Wiltshire notifying them of a second path to the deposition
site at any time in the year 2002.
MR HUBBARD
one short admission, members of the jury. Maxine Carr
has no previous convictions recorded against her.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
would you go now and I will have a word with counsel.
(DISCUSSION IN ABSENCE OF JURY)
Hearing adjourned - will resume on Monday
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