| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
12/12/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 12 December 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
ladies and gentlemen, three things as part of the evidence
adduced by the prosecution that I ought to have mentioned
yesterday, which I failed to do, and which I mention now.
Firstly, when I was referring to the fibres on the schedule,
in relation to the two dusters and the washing cloth,
dish cloth, found in the bin by the hangar, I made a point
about the fibres in that they were from the blue carpet
and either the boot or the house.
Of course there was also blue carpet in the school. so
the point could be made, well, perhaps Ian Huntley was
right - that they had been used at the school. The second
point in relation to the switching off of Jessica's mobile
phone. At the time I ought to have reminded you that during
the course of the beginning of this evidence, Mr Bristowe,
the expert, did also say that if the battery was running
down and got so low the telephone completely powered down,
that would also cause it to switch off.
So you have to imagine that the battery is getting lower
and lower and happened to run down at that moment. Finally,
in Dr Cary's evidence, I discussed the bruising spoken
about, the fracture that he spoke about on the inner skull,
due, he thought, to the effect of fire when the body was
being burned. I ought also to have referred to one other
possibility that he described as theoretical - and you
will remember what I said about theoretical possibilities
- but let me remind you of it the fracture of the inner
skull is very unlikely to be the result of external impact,
but I cannot absolutely exclude the theoretical possibility
that part of this bleeding and skull fracture happened
in life and not after death. those are three things I
should have mentioned yesterday.
I turn to the evidence of Maxine Carr who told you about
her early life and finding and meeting Ian Huntley in
the nightclub in Grimsby back in February 1999. She told
you how she had learned very shortly after meeting him
of the false accusation of rape and the effect that that
had had upon him. she said he talked about it a lot, saying
the police had it in for him because they couldn't pin
him down for rape.
He brought it up quite often. it was very important to
him. She told you I loved him very very much, I thought
he loved me. We were hoping to get married when he was
stable and secure in a job. He dealt with the money and
she thought he managed to save. She then told you how
much she liked working with the children and particularly
liked doing the messy jobs like painting. She knew Holly
and Jessica, they knew her.
They were, she said, lovely girls, the kind of daughters
I would want to have; polite, friendly, never a bad word
to say of anyone and really bright. Jessica was very sporty,
happy making wise cracks, she was smashing, and she told
you about receiving the card along with other cards from
other children, some five or six.
On the Saturday, 3rd August, she went to see her mother
in Grimsby, and was taken there by Ian Huntley's parents.
She said when I left the house it was very very clean
I sorted the washing out before I went away. I don't think
I left the washing out. If I had, Ian wouldn't have brought
it in or taken it out.
Nor would it have left it in the washing machine. I can't
stand mess. I clean everything and I have spoilt clothes
in the past from over use with bleach. Then she described
the telephone conversation she had just before the girls
came to the house. She said that what she had said to
his mother during that secretly recorded telephone conversation
was the truth. Remember what I said, the transcript is
not evidence against him, because he was not there taking
part in that conversation.
But when she comes in the witness box and says it was
the truth, it was evidence. Bear in mind the warning I
gave you about whether she has her own interest to protect
in relation to Ian Huntley. She said of that phone call
shortly before the girls arrived he was in the house when
I spoke with him, I could hear the TV in the background.
He was moving around telling me what he was doing, he
had got a video, four cans of his usual beer, he was going
to sit and watch the video. Then she said he was not happy
about going out, her going out with her mother. you will
remember that rather fast exchange she recollected between
him and her which you may think was a vivid reenactment
of the tiff they were having on the telephone about her
going out - why doesn't your mum get you a video, she
hasn't got a video recorder,so on and so forth. It came
rather fast and you may think rather realistically about
the exchange she told you about.
Then she said he stopped the conversation and put the
phone down, I asked him how Sadie was. he was holding
the dog at the phone saying its mummy then he said she
- Sadie - was not listening and she was gone and I went
out that night and got back very late in the evening,
about 1 am, and we had those witnesses statements read
about her going to nightclubs. I was a bit cross the next
morning, 5th August, and hung over when I took his call.
I was awake not really taking it all in.
I was very very tired, quite drained he said he had been
up all night searching for missing kids, he didn't say
whether they were boys or girls, or give their age. He
said they had been searching. Police had called round
so he opened up the college and had been searching and
had not got in until 5. he hadn't wanted to go into work
because he was a bit tired. He gave me no further information.
She said it went in and out of one ear because of the
condition that she was in. She then went to visit in the
morning, having spent the morning in the town centre with
her mother, your grandfather, 91, of Keelby some 12 miles
again, and spoke of the bus journey - only having a short
conversation with the driver on the way but speaking with
him in the afternoon. When she took the return journey
she described being at her grandfather's when the phone
call came that afternoon he didn't say where he was ringing
from.
I asked whether there was any news about the kids. He
didn't say, he didn't say really how he was feeling. He
said I need to tell you, the girls came from your school.
Which ones? Holly and Jessica. I said Holly Wells and
Jessica Chapman? He said yes. What do you mean, they have
gone missing? He didn't know where.
The thing is, Maxine, he said, the children came into
our house. What do you mean? he said one had a nosebleed.
While he was out on the front porch with Sadie the girls
approached the side of the car, and asked how is Miss
Carr. He has said he looked up and said she had not got
the job and was not very good. I asked what happened then?
He said the dark-haired one had blood on her finger, a
nosebleed, and he told them to go into the house there
was no tissue in the downstairs toilet so they went upstairs.
The girl was holding her head over the sink.
Ian Huntley, she told you, was speaking in a really funny
way - not in complete sentences. He said one of them sat
on the edge of the bed. I said what do you mean - I flew
into him he said that was the only place she had to sit,
and I said then what happened. First thing that came to
my mind would be that the girls were going to say that
they had sat on Miss Carr's bed, and I thought what if
Mrs Bryden finds out the children were in the house -
that was it. He told me the nosebleed had stopped, they
left the house, went over the bridge at the side of our
house and that was it.
He said he wished I had been there, he was finding it
hard to cope. The police thought he was the last person
to have seen the girls, and he sounded really unhappy
and anxious about that. As she told you, she didn't know
what to think I knew those girls. I knew they loved their
families and they wouldn't run away. They were not, as
she put it, good options. Lots of things were running
through my head. I said I wanted to come home and be there.
Deep down I was thinking my mum would be disappointed.
I said mum is not really happy. He said what is more important?
- remember she was going to have her check up the following
Thursday and she wanted to be there for that. she couldn't
remember whether that was the occasion she agreed to come
home but there was further discussion about it. Then she
told you about the return journey with Mr Walmsley - and
you remember Mr Hubbard's comment about that, that there
had already been agreement to say she was in Soham, why
was she drawing attention to herself with the bus driver
Mr Walmsley?
then she described being picked up the following day and
seeing the Fiesta outside after she had gone to get some
sweets for the journey. About 12.35 she saw the news,
the ITV lunchtime news, which recorded that they had not
found Holly and Jessica. This upset me, she said. She
could see people searching, pictures of the children,
and I was a bit upset. he said what is wrong with your
face?
I said I was really upset and ill because of this I was
crying. I couldn't settle the night before and had gone
to bed and then my sister had come round. It was the first
time on television after midday on that Tuesday that I
had seen the pictures. I couldn't imagine what it was
going to be like when I got back. I left and went to the
car. I had bought several things and had a holdall. I
opened the boot and put the bags in.
I put the bags in I suppose my face looked as though I
had been crying. I couldn't get over it. it didn't seem
like everyday life when you see someone you knew on television,
who had gone missing. She didn't really seeing Marion,
then she picked up the journey with the hitchhiker Mr
Jeynes. she had not heard any conversation about the word
'supposedly' being used.
Then she said of the boot, it was clean, the carpet looked
different. It looked like he had cleaned it and I thought
that about it at the time. normally she said there were
things like cobwebs on the windows and bags of sweets
and rubbish lying around and sometimes he takes the car
for a wash but not very often, and said it looks like
you have been busy and about time too.
He explained to me that Sadie had made a mess in the car
and he had to clean it. When she got there, there were
people, vans, cars satellite dishes all over our lawn.
Huntley went to open the door and Sadie came flying out
and he helped me take the bags in and dump them down.
The door to the dining room was open, the table was not
where it was supposed to be. The light fitting was down
and wires hanging down from the ceiling.
He had already told me Sadie had cracked the bath and
he had had to take the lights down. He told me that in
the car he said he had been washing Sadie and she was
all messy. She is quite a heavy dog. I kept saying where
have the girls gone? He kept saying they will be okay.
The floor carpet was a different colour. There were wet
patches.
He thought it would dry out on its own. I thought it needed
a dehumidifier. He said it would be okay. The kitchen
was dirty with pots unwashed, the washing machine was
full. masses of white inside the cover of the bed and
cover of the quilt in there, it had been on the bed when
I had last seen it. The duvet was only about a month old.
I had stripped the bed every week, changed the duvet cover
but not the quilt.
I was quite surprised because it is a new duvet, I think
there was a mat from the bathroom also in the washing
machine. I was surprised because he doesn't normally use
the washing machine. The first thing I thought was that
he had had a woman in the house, but didn't think about
that very long because I had too much else to think about
and didn't question him about it.
There was too much to do and lots of questions in my mind.
The bedroom was a tip, clothes were in a heap and I suppose
he was expecting me to pick them up. There was a winter
quilt on the bed with a duvet cover. It looked like he
had a bath and there was soap and a razor, I normally
clean up after him and normally sweet wrappers lying around,
chair cushions all higgledy piggeldy.
He said he was going see Ruth and Michael, his fellow
caretakers, and I put the kettle on. I wanted a full description
of what had happened; what the girls had said, what they
had asked or not asked. All he was interested in was stopping
the nosebleed, he said. I said they must have said something.
She and Ian Huntley had, she told you, a conversation
over one and a half hours. I asked were they upset, how
they looked and I asked where they said they were going.
The TV was on the in the living room. He was pacing up
and down, saying he was the last person to see the girls.
I said lots of people had seen the girls. A lady had seen
the two children, I had seen that on the lunchtime news.
He said people with such reports are not reliable I'm
the only one who has definitely seen the girls and spoke
to them, and he was really fretting about them. He kept
saying he thought he was going to be a suspect Oh God
I'm the last person who has see them. I'm going to be
a suspect, they are going to be after me for this. I have
already had a go about him letting the children in the
house, about what other children would say and whether
they would start up the allegation against him.
He was worried about the police and said he was going
to be fitted up for this and when they found out about
the previous allegation of rape. This upset me. I said
no it is not going happen. Why not go to the police first
and explain you saw the girls get out of the house so
they couldn't put a finger on you. He said No, I will
lose my job. It would be so much easier if you had been
there.
He went on about me being there when the girls came round,
maybe I was in the bed or the bathroom. I couldn't have
been in bed at that time, so the bathroom was the alternative.
I said but they knew I had been in Grimsby. He said nobody
knew I had gone away so if I said I was there - so he
suggested I should say I was there but I said who shall
I say it to?
He said tell anybody who asks. The police specifically
were not mentioned apart from when I told him to go to
the police. I was really thinking - she told you that
people would start talking about the girls having come
to the house, he told me the girls had left. I was making
sure people wouldn't spread rumours about the children
being in the house. Mrs Bryden said he shouldn't let children
in the house and if there was talk about, it rumours would
spread. He was the only source of wages.
I was just worried about everything, worried about him,
he would not be in a fit state. I was really scared so
I just agreed because I wanted it to be all right. I never
really thought about the girls they had left the house,
they were out of the equation. All I was worried about
was Ian, his job and his reputation.
There was no final agreement; it was open ended but I
could tell by the way he was that I had to go along with
the story. the girls, she repeated, were "not part
of the equation". I accept I lied persistently to
the police and journalists on television, I accept it
is not right to lie. I knew it wasn't right but I was
doing the right thing for that person. I was not concerned
because I knew he had not done anything.
I knew Ian wouldn't have done anything like that I have
not heard anything like that, and she was referring to
his account of what he said had happened in the bathroom
I have not heard anything like that before he gave his
evidence. I didn't know or believe he killed the children.
It never crossed my mind. I would have been out of the
house like a shot, straight to the nearest person or police.
Because, it was because I was concerned those girls had
walked away and were alive that I didn't think of the
effect of what I said on the investigation. I didn't want
Ian accused of anything he had not done. the police would
look into his background, find out about the rape allegation,
little lights would start to go on and they would say
that's the man. I wanted them to find the person who had
done it and stop blaming people who had not done anything
wrong.
She then said that she had never said to Mr Mahoney anything
about the girls having dropped the card in; in fact, Holly
had given her the card when another teacher was there.
She spoke about the kitchen tiles being white. She said
Ian painted them green and had not done a perfect job
so when she was using the scourer, paint was coming away.
She started cleaning on the Wednesday, kitchen; floors,
Thursday.
She had come back and tidied up on Tuesday night I was
going to go from one room to the next the normal route,
that was all I had to do. She lost the work as voluntary
assistant, that was over. "That was all I had to
do", she told you, "that was my job". Then
she told you about her life in Holloway after her arrest.
She was cross-examined on behalf of Ian Huntley to point
out that what she was telling you was different from what
she told the police, and in important respects you will
be able to see those inconsistencies. She repeated to
him that she had had to say, "I was in the bath".
He pushed me into a corner to tell lies - into a position
where I couldn't do anything about that. She said she
had no choice.
Remember, again, the warnings I have given you about looking
at her evidence and insofar as it affects Ian Huntley;
whether she may be saying things to make her position
look better and his position look worse. In that connection
I should remind you of what she said at one stage when
being pressed by Mr Coward You have no idea of the relationship
I had with Ian, no idea of the kind of person he was towards
me.
Don't start, well, I wonder what she is really saying,
what was life like with him and start using that against
Ian Huntley; it would be very unfair to do so. Nobody
went into it, for very good reason. We are really not
going have a trial about what their relationship was like
so do not start speculating about that. It would not be
fair.
Obviously she feels very different about him now, and
that would inevitably, whatever you feel about the truth
or otherwise of her evidence, colour what she says about
him. Don't hold it against him - and I won't go into that
- you will have got the flavour of what she was saying
at that point in the cross-examination. Let me turn then
to the cross-examination on behalf of the prosecution
where she repeated that what Ian had told her, that it
was the dark-haired girl who had the nosebleed.
If you are sure she was telling the truth, that was what
Ian Huntley was saying, because if that is so the nosebleed
can't have made much impression, if he didn't know which
girl it was who had the nosebleed. So that is why those
questions were asked. Then she was taken through different
conversations she had with Ian Huntley - and I won't repeat
that - but she was asked about what she had noticed in
the washing machine.duvet and cover in it.
But she told you it had never occurred to me that it was
something to do with the two girls. also, she was asked
what about her her suspicion that there had been a woman
in the house? She said she didn't put it to him but I
suspected he had had a woman on the bed. I was more bothered
about the girls to ask him a stupid question. I said what
the heck were the girls doing there. I was appalled that
the girls had come into the house. I couldn't believe
it. He seemed to have answers for everything.
He didn't give me a reason for washing the bed clothes
and I didn't ask him. It did not seem important. Again,
remember that feature of cross-examination, asking witnesses
what was said, what did people say, and I made a comment
about that in relation to Ian Huntley's evidence. There
again, the reason why the prosecution was asking questions
of her, she really had worried about the duvet in the
washing machine and thought it was a woman.
Why wasn't she asking about it, why didn't it occur to
her again when she was hanging out the duvet? Those sorts
of material questions about which you, as a Jury, can
test the truth or otherwise of the evidence. She was asked
about cleaning the house. She said she cleaned the house,
two pairs of curtains, the hall and the dining room curtains
and started with the two - I think she described them
as velveteen curtains.
She accepted she cleaned. She said, as I reminded you,
she didn't think again about why the duvet had needed
to be cleaned when she was hanging them out. She was asked
about the interviews and the use of the past tense when
describing the girls, and I have already made my comment
about that. She was asked about Johnson coming round for
house to house inquiries and butting in I should know
what T-shirt you were wearing, because I do your bloody
washing.
She accepted I was doing my best to make it look convincing
and lying to the policeman, although I acknowledged the
situation was deadly serious. She said I was not stopping
someone from being confronted who I believed to be the
perpetrator, but I knew the form that would be filled
in by the police would go into the system. I listened
to Ian Huntley lying and I lied. I wanted to convince
them we were telling the truth.
She said Sadie was in the house when he rang her so I
knew he was lying about that, I knew he was lying about
what he said was the cause of contact between him and
the girls. But Ian was talking to a lot of people and
I knew the girls had walked away, I said it because of
what I felt about that person, referring to him.
She then was asked in detail about the interviews and
although prosecution counsel was criticised for going
through them, it may not be have been wholly clear why
he was criticised for doing that, the fact of the matter
is the comment was made and you will have to consider
whether or not it is plain in those interviews that that
witness, Maxine Carr was trying to give the impression
to the police she was coming clean, and it is also now
apparent she's very far from coming clean during those
interviews and that is something you are entitled to bear
in mind when judging the truth, or otherwise, of the evidence.
On a number of occasions you may think she had the opportunity
to say what she was telling you and she failed to do so.
she said I knew a great deal more but it was my decision
to with hold it and you will see the tone of voice that
she adopted when the police pressed her. Towards the end
of the cross-examination she said this I accept that the
police investigation is a course of justice, these were
questions relating to count 5 - to feed false information
and to interfere with the investigation.
I accept I sent the officer off in a different direction.
I accept I couldn't be the judge of whether something
was worth saying; the police may know something I don't,
but I didn't want them to look at Ian, because it was
my intention they shouldn't look at Ian, and I lied to
achieve that very end. We two agreed to provide a false
story but I never believed he had killed them. I didn't
tell lies to protect him as a murderer.
I thought the situation looked bad, but I knew the police
were looking very, very carefully and would look very
carefully at him, if I revealed what I knew, but those
girls were out there, by that she meant, as he said on
number of occasions, they had walked away. Those were
important answers but that of course you must look at
in the context of all her evidence that you may think
it came very close to her really.
Admitting the intention relating to count 5, that of course
is marked for you. She said in re-examination I had not
worked out the children were dead and Ian Huntley was
responsible. I slept in the same bed as him until the
arrest and I wouldn't, had I known the truth, have been
in the same house and I wouldn't have used the same bath.
That was her evidence there was also a witness called
- unchallenged - about the cleanliness of her house when
they lived near Scunthorpe.
As soon as she finished a cup of tea or coffee she had
been offered there Maxine Carr would be clearing it away,
the house was immaculate. She cleaned the house every
day, scrubbed the tiles and walls where there had been
dog mess the house was spotless. Evidence to show that
she is very keen, and has been, on keeping things clean.
That is all I am going to remind you in respect of her
evidence.
Two final things, and then we are are going to discuss
the mechanics of the person who is going to be in charge
of the computer. The final two things are this if you
have not already done so, appoint a Foreman, someone who
can chair your deliberations, control the arguments one
way or the other and deliver your verdicts when you are
ready.
Finally this forget all you have heard or been told or
may have read about majority verdicts. Your verdicts in
relation to each of these charges against these defendants
must be unanimous, in other words verdicts upon which
you are all agreed one way or the other. because unless
you are all agreed (inaudible) When the Bailiffs are sworn,
you will shortly retire and consider your verdicts.
MR KHALIL
my Lord we rather hoped (inaudible).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
if heard that I don't know whether the defence have agreed.
MR COWARD
we have appointed a competent representative of our team
to do it Mr Elmer.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I do not want you to start deliberating before doing whatever
you want to do first. What we want to do is have one from
each team to go and watch Mr Khalil and make sure he is
showing you competently, one of you how to clip on, get
the menu right. I will come too and we'll have a shorthand-writer,
just so there is a record of what has gone in. It is rather
unusual to go into your room.
Shall we send the Jury in then and there, and then we'll
follow, telling them not to start discussing the case.
When the Jury Bailiffs are sworn, would you retire and
consider your verdict but do not start until we have all
been in there, come in with a shorthand-writer, the instruction
has been given and then we will all leave and then the
process will start. They will also have the tape recording.
MR KHALIL
they can if it is required.
MR HUBBARD
my Lord, I think they ought to have that.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
the only thing that you will have to send a note if you
want it as I have said, there are photographs of it if
you look carefully, the bath, with the position of the
crack, then you would have to say we want to see it. We
have made arrangements so your privacy would be retained.
One way of doing it is to go into the room and give the
instruction and come back and have the Jury Bailiffs sworn
to observe the formality, but I do not think that is necessary.
The Jury Bailiffs will be sworn, you go to your room but
please do not start discussing the case but wait until
we have been in there, it is much better to show you in
there because otherwise it won't be quite the same. Then
your deliberations will start after we have left.
MR COWARD
can I respectfully mention one small matter before the
Bailiffs are sworn? It has been drawn to my attention
your Lordship, yesterday in summing the case up to the
Jury you referred to the question of a dog bite on one
of the girls. Those around me have checked their note
and it was Dr Cary who dealt with this and he said he
found there was in the history of the medical records
on one of the girls reference to a dog bite but there
was no indication at the time of the post-mortem he found
any dog bite.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that is absolutely right, do you want me to repeat that
or just say that what Mr Coward has said is correct? I
think that is sufficient. what Mr Coward has said is correct
- so bear that mind. The Jury Bailiffs will be sworn.
(Jury Bailiffs sworn)
MR JUSTICE MOSES
there will be a slight pause after you have gone; take
your papers with you, there is one other thing I am going
to say in Court in your absence.
(Short
discussion in absence of Jury)
JURY RETIRES TO CONSIDER VERDICTS
MR JUSTICE MOSES
ladies and gentlemen I am sorry to keep you so long. When
you asked me the question I was getting an answer. We
will try and tighten up procedures for the future if you
have more questions. The question is please can we see
the bath and have a tape measure and a straight edge.
The answer to both questions is yes. I have been spending
a bit of time before.
What we will do is use the court like an extension of
your room so what we will do is clear I will send you
out, we will clear the court, you will be provided with
what we have got now, the tape measure and a straight
edge. We will have the officers bring the bath in so it
will be in here with that equipment. you will then be
brought in, you may want, as it were, to talk amongst
yourselves as if you were in there in front of the bath.
So the whole place will be completely cleared, nobody
can overhear you and the Jury Bailiff will be, at least
one out of that door and the other one out of this door,
so they will not be able to hear you just as they don't
in your room. When you are finished, tap on one of the
doors and they will bring you back. If you want to look
at it again, the same procedure. you go back into your
room - sorry about this - we will then clear the court.
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