| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
13/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Thursday, 13 November 2003
SKY News
MR LATHAM is the chief prosecutor and MR JUSTICE
MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07
MR LATHAM
Mr Bull, will you give us your full name, please?
MARCUS BULL
Marcus Alexander Bull.
MR LATHAM
I think you work with your cousin, BENJAMIN
HICKLING for a limited company called Solartec.
Is that right?
MARCUS BULL
That's right.
MR LATHAM
I can take it shortly. I think in March last year, together
with Mr Hickling, you went to Soham Village College to
have look at the windows there and to advise the college
on whether or not they complied with certain regulations,
is that right?
MARCUS BULL
That's correct.
MR LATHAM
I think you were expecting to meet the principal, Mrs
Bryden, but in the event were taken round by the caretaker,
Ian Huntley, although you may not have known his name
at the time?
MARCUS BULL
That's right.
MR LATHAM
During the course of going round and viewing the college,
I think the conversation got on to aircraft?
MARCUS BULL
Yes, it did.
MR LATHAM
And was that as a result of, in fact, a military aircraft
flying overhead at some stage while you were wandering
around the site?
MARCUS BULL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
It became, I think, a topic - or could have, did it not?
MARCUS BULL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Do you yourself have any particular interest in aircraft?
MARCUS BULL
Not particularly, no.
MR LATHAM
What about your cousin, Mr Hickling?
MARCUS
BULL
He is interested; I don't believe has any great detailed
knowledge.
MR LATHAM
He has more interest than you, I take it?
MARCUS
BULL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
While you were discussing military aircraft with Mr Huntley,
did he say something about Lakenheath Airbase ?
MARCUS BULL
Yes, he did, during the course of the conversation, he
was particular in his knowledge of the planes and the
base, and he did discuss keenness in plane spotting.
MR LATHAM
Did he say anything about plane spotting in relation to
Lakenheath?
MARCUS BULL
Yes, he did, he gave the impression that he had access
to somewhere that he could get to to watch the planes,
but it either wasn't available to others or was not widely
known.
MR LATHAM
Either not available or not widely known? Did he describe
in any detail where that was or just say it was somewhere
where he could watch Lakenheath? Airbase?
MR LATHAM
Telephones. There is obviously a number of telephones
dotted around, I'm talking about land lines?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Do those land lines go through switchboards with the same
number or are there several phones that have their own
individual numbers?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No, there are some phones with individual numbers.
MR LATHAM
The Jury looked through the window because the kitchens
were locked when they went there. In the corner of the
kitchen is a small office?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
There is.
MR LATHAM
Are you aware whether or not there is an landline in that
office?
MARGARET BRYDEN
There is a landline and it is on a separate telephone
number.
MR LATHAM
So it has its own individual billing number with a separate
number?
MARGARET BRYDEN
It has.
MR LATHAM
Caretaker rooms on site. We start with Lodeside, was there
a designated room for the caretaking staff in that building?
MARGARET BRYDEN
There was.
MR LATHAM
Where was that?
MARGARET BRYDEN
That's at the back of Lodeside.
MR LATHAM
Again, that's the room the jury went into when they went
on their view on Monday, up on to the stage and into the
passage way behind the stage?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
That's right.
MR LATHAM
Did that have a landline last year?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
No.
MR LATHAM
It didn't? in order to get into Lodeside with the alarm
set what is the access route?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
you would go into the entrance at the gym door at the
back of the Lodeside Hall.
MR LATHAM
is that a pair of double doors with a fairly narrow passageway
that runs down the side of the hall with the kitchen on
the right hand side?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
and then the Jury saw the panel - I need not detail it
further - the panel where you punch in the code to deactivate
the alarm?
MARGARET BRYDEN
but you wouldn't need to deactivate it if you were accessing
the caretaker's office or the main hall or the gymnasium.
MR LATHAM
it is only if you want to move round into other areas
of school you need to deactivate?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
that's right.
MR LATHAM
while on the subject of caretaker rooms, at Beechurst
is there anywhere there for the use of caretaker staff?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes, we have what we call the switch room in Beechurst.
MR LATHAM
we walked past your office - again, on the view the Jury
may have noticed your name on the door - as you go into
Beechurst through the main entrance doors via the hall
on the left-hand side you turn right and go the passageway,
and your office is on the right hand side is it not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
and the switch room is the first one on the left.
MR LATHAM
on the left. And the jury just looked into that; a fairly
small room, isn't it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
did that have a telephone in it?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
yes, it did.
MR LATHAM
a landline?
MARGARET BRYDEN
only with the switchboard.
MR LATHAM
right. so in order to use that phone you had to go through
the main switchboard of the school?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
did that have a computer in it?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
it did.
MR LATHAM
and what was the computer for?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
that was for the caretaker's use for answering e-mails
and for me sending communications through for jobs and
work that needed to be done.
MR LATHAM
by the time the caretaking staff had become established
in 2002, who was it that normally responded via the computer
to you?
MARGARET BRYDEN
It would normally be Ian Huntley.
MR
LATHAM
Those are the two rooms and the landlines. Mobile telephones.
What arrangement did you come to, if there was any arrangement,
with Ian Huntley?
MARGARET BRYDEN
When he first arrived there was a caretaker's mobile telephone
he was given and, unfortunately, that went missing round
about June time. That was a pay-as-you-go phone, he was
then given a rental phone that happened to belong to the
old principal and that was a replacement, so we had some
means of contacting him. Unfortunately, I was told that
was not ringing so there was another telephone purchased
on the last day of the summer term.
MR
LATHAM
Of course, very shortly before the girls went missing?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, yes in July.
MR LATHAM
Can I ask you it may be the easiest way of doing it to
have the green lever-arch file and can I ask you to turn
to page 3, please. I'm only going to ask you about the
numbers near the top, for obvious reasons. The first two
numbers are both mobile numbers. One is described as Huntley's
mobile - I'm only going to use the last three digits the
607 telephone. You recognise that number now or----?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I don't recognise it at this moment. I would have to refer
to my diary.
MR LATHAM
Ian had a mobile provided by the school that was a replacement
mobile issued at the very end of the summer term.
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Was there also a Soham Village College mobile to which
Mr Huntley had access?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, that was the one that wasn't working, hence the purchase
of the new mobile.
MR LATHAM
Then we see there listed three landline numbers, the main
telephone, that is the 100 number?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
That's correct.
MR LATHAM
Is that the switchboard?
MARGARET BRYDEN
That's the switchboard number.
MR LATHAM
Then the 297 number, community education office number?
MARGARET BRYDEN
That's correct, that has its own line.
MR
LATHAM
Own line, which part of the college building is that in,
that telephone?
MARGARET BRYDEN
As you walk into Lodeside there is a reception area, community
education reception area, and it is on literally the right
hand side as you walk in.
MR LATHAM
So that is as you go through the main doors into the building
, is that correct?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
The Jury went in there on the Monday and it is on the
right hand side there with the glass screen?
MARGARET BRYDEN
It is, yes.
MR LATHAM
That is a separate line into that room?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
To get into that room, if the alarm is set in the building,
do you need to deactivate the alarm?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
You could go in by the side door, there is a door at the
back of that office, that if you walked in there you wouldn't
deactivate the alarm.
MR LATHAM
You already mentioned the college kitchen office has its
own landline, the 354 number?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Correct.
MR LATHAM
To get into the kitchen area would you need to deactivate
the alarm?
MARGARET BRYDEN
no.
MR LATHAM
in the early days of Ian Huntley being employed at the
college did you see Maxine Carr around the college part
of it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, did.
MR LATHAM
what was she doing around college in the early days?
MARGARET BRYDEN
to begin with, locking and unlocking doors with Ian Huntley,
and if he was locking up she would be there for locking
up too.
MR LATHAM
going round with him while he was doing his job?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that's right.
MR LATHAM
indeed, she was actually doing some of the locking herself?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
was that, as it were, as a result of any instruction you
gave or was she just doing it on a voluntary basis, as
it were?
MARGARET BRYDEN
she was doing it on a voluntary basis. It was one of the
reasons for the move into the house very, very quickly,
the fact she felt she wanted to be in her own home rather
than sharing a home with Ian Huntley's parents.
MR LATHAM
so if Ian Huntley was on site, she preferred to be there
rather than back at Littleport?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
she did.
MR LATHAM
did you in fact suggest she might take some sort of job
on site in the early days?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I did, I did , I suggested maybe she would like to do
a cleaning job if she wanted to be on site and that would
formalise the reason for her being there.
MR
LATHAM
yes. I do not want to go into the details, was she keen
to do that or not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
no.
MR LATHAM
did she, however, raise the possibility of her working
in some other way within the Soham College site generally,
something other than cleaning?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
she actually mentioned during the interview process that
she was very keen to become a learning support assistant.
MR LATHAM
was she interested in working in the college or in the
primary school?
MARGARET BRYDEN
more interested in the primary when we talked about it.
MR LATHAM
did you become aware that is precisely what happened,
that she took up as a voluntary LSA at the primary school
after a time?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you get that information from - that she was
doing that work?
MARGARET BRYDEN
from Ian.
MR LATHAM
Ian? because it is an entirely separate school, isn't
it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes, it is completely independent to Soham Village College.
MR LATHAM
do you in fact have much contact with the staff in the
primary school?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Only when year 6 are coming into year 7 I do primary liaison
visits.
MR LATHAM
as it were, a hand-over when they graduate to senior school?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
Can you help us a little with Ian Huntley and how he functioned
during 2002? You, I take it, would have quite a bit to
do with him, given that he was, as it were, managing the
site, the building, the facilities, and you had heated
discussions. What would happen if you felt it necessary
to, as it were, let it down to say you can't do it, what
was his reaction?
MARGARET BRYDEN
He very often would get upset, could even have tears in
his eyes and walk out of the office.
MR
LATHAM
If he had, if there was such an incident, tears in his
eyes and walking out of the office, how would that resolve
itself, what would happen next if he walked out? Would
anybody else come in?
MARGARET BRYDEN
He would return later and come into my office to discuss
it. Very often after school hours.
MR
LATHAM
Did he come on his own on those occasions?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Unfortunately not, although there were times when I had
not realised he wasn't.
MR HUBBARD
To what issue does all this go.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
I have no idea. I'm sure we'll get there sometime. I was
more concerned about MR HUBBARD.
MR
HUBBARD
Well, I was concerned about----
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
We have got to be patient.
MR LATHAM
Who was it, if anyone else did, who came to your office
when there was such problems?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Very often Maxine Carr.
MR LATHAM
Of the two of them, who was it in those circumstances
who was, as it were, in charge of the problem or in charge
of resolving the problem?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I would say that Ian would discuss the issues with me
when she would be waiting outside as if to ensure that
he had gone to discuss it.
MR LATHAM
If I can move on to the events much closer to the girls
disappearance, the end of term was the very end of July,
was it not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Correct.
MR LATHAM
Were you due to go on holiday in early August?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I was due to go on holiday at the end of July. I did go
off for the weekend, returning on the Tuesday where we
had flooding so I delayed the holiday.
MR
LATHAM
Can we deal with the issue again, it may be important.
You had a problem days after the holiday started?
MARGARET BRYDEN
We did on the Tuesday, the day after the holiday. We had
a major flash flood throughout Beechurst and Lodeside.
MR LATHAM
Did that cause a lot of damage?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
A tremendous amount of damage, we had a ceiling down in
Beechurst----
MR HUBBARD
Sorry to interrupt the witness, could my learned friend
say as a preface page, then we know where we are? There
are about eight or nine statements from this witness and
it is impossible to follow my learned friend. He knows
where he is going.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
It is not impossible because I'm doing it but anyway you
help--- Anyway a flash flood in Beechurst and Lodeside.
MR LATHAM
The problem is a lot of it is in my head. I have read
it. I know what she is speaking of I can't immediately
go to it, there is of course a section with the flood.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Yes, there is.
MR LATHAM
My Lord 1018 will help my learned friend.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
yes, anyway let us get on.
MR LATHAM
apart from the ceiling damage was there quite a bit of
damage to carpeting and so on?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
There was, particularly in Lodeside.
MR
LATHAM
what did you have to do as a result of that - by "you"
I mean what did the school have to do?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
we had to clear all the wet carpet out of school so we
had to hire a skip in order to do it.
MR
LATHAM
where did the skip go?
MARGARET BRYDEN
the skip arrived on the Thursday.
MR
LATHAM
where the skip was put down?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
it was dropped outside the resource centre.
MR LATHAM
that perhaps we could - this may be a time the site plan
will help - the resource centre, is that the Lodeside
or Beechurst part of the site?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
it is here.
MR LATHAM
the sports centre?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that is there, if you move over, there is a bit of the
T-shaped building - an upside down T shape, that is the----
MR LATHAM
where the arrow is now?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that alleyway between that and the science block, the
white area there is where the stick was placed.
MR LATHAM
is the arrow now pointing in the right place?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes, it is.
MR LATHAM
were you in effect having to dump a lot of carpeting into
this skip, wet carpeting?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes, we removed all the carpet from Beechurst and in two
classrooms in Lodeside, as well as lino tiles.
MR LATHAM
was Ian Huntley involved in that exercise?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
very much so.
MR LATHAM
that brought you back to the site after you thought you
were going to be on holiday. It happened, I think, on
the 30th July, didn't it----
MARGARET
BRYDEN
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
the flooding? were you round and about on the
site up to Friday, 2nd August?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I was.
MR LATHAM
and did you then leave the site at about 7 o'clock on
Friday?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I did.
MR LATHAM
and go back on to your holiday which had been rudely interrupted?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I didn't go that Sunday; I had spoken with Kevin Wells
on the Sunday morning about window cleaning.
MR LATHAM
you knew Kevin Wells?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
to complete the picture there had been a time, apart from
when he was cleaning windows, when he had actually worked
on site, being responsible for security at the end of
the day?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that was right; from September up to January, after Ian
had been appointed, he worked on site.
MR
LATHAM
then the hand-over period dealing with----?
MARGARET BRYDEN
he mainly did locking up in the evenings.
MR
LATHAM
so in order to lock up on a site like that, you have to
know the site fairly well?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Now, when you left the site which way out of the site
did you go on that Friday?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Out of Beechurst through the large gates.
MR
LATHAM
Those large gates, once the site is closed, what happens
to the gates in normal circumstances?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
They would be locked.
MR LATHAM
How were they locked?
MARGARET BRYDEN
With a padlock and chain.
MR LATHAM
Who has access to the padlock and chain keys, a lot of
people?
MARGARET BRYDEN
It doesn't have a key it has a code.
MR
LATHAM
Right. Would Ian Huntley have known the code to the gate?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, all the caretakers would know the code.
MR LATHAM
Having gone on holiday, did you discover on the Monday,
the 5th, that the girls had gone missing?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
Did you know either of the girls at all before the events
of early August?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You had met them both?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And would you have been able to put a name to them?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Particularly Jessica because she had been helping with
the prom we were having in June.
MR
LATHAM
You could have named her, Jessica Chapman, if you had
seen her in the school?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I could.
MR LATHAM
What about Holly, would you have known her first name
or her surname?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I knew of Holly and would have recognised her, yes.
MR LATHAM
Now, did you in fact come back to the site in the early
days of the search for the two girls, in other words,
from Monday onwards?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No.
MR LATHAM
But having said that you didn't come back to the site,
were there occasions when you spoke to anyone in relation
to what was going on on the site on the telephone?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, there were several occasions.
MR
LATHAM
Did you make any diary entries relating to those telephone
conversations or not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
If you have got them, at the time or shortly after the
calls I take it you would make diary entries, did you?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No, I actually made diary entries as soon as the- on a
day-to-day basis.
MR LATHAM
Yes, if you wouldn't mind going to get your diary for
this period immediately after the Monday, 5th August.
Perhaps we could start with the Tuesday? Did you speak
to anyone on the Tuesday?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I spoke to Ian concerning the press in Lodeside Hall.
MR LATHAM
Was that to do with providing conference facilities, as
it were, for the press?
MARGARET BRYDEN
That's correct.
MR LATHAM
On Thursday, did you speak to Ian Huntley on the Thursday,
the 8th August?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I did. Ian rang me and it was inappropriate that
I actually spoke to him at that time. I was in a shop
in a ladies toilet so I had to ring him back on that .
MR LATHAM
Actually what did he say?
MARGARET BRYDEN
He actually said he was being hounded by the press and
the police and he needed to go away for the weekend.
MR LATHAM
In normal circumstances albeit it was school holiday time,
what is the position of the caretaker, who is in charge
of the site in the holidays?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
In the holidays in normal time there would not be conference
facilities needed, so they would provide, the caretakers
would provide that, the principal Harold Gilbert was there
all the time, he was in charge.
MR LATHAM
With staff absent because it is holiday time the site
manager or one of the other caretakers was in charge of
the site on the ground?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Responsible for getting things ready, yes.
MR
LATHAM
That's getting ready for the press but the question was?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
The question was about holidays generally.
MR
LATHAM
Yes the staff, during holiday time, the site is still
there. Who was responsible for the site on a daily basis?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Normally the site officers would contact me if there was
anything untoward.
MR LATHAM
So here he had a problem in the sense that there was a
request for facilities, initially from the press and then
of course the police were very much on site and he said,
he got in touch with you on Tuesday to talk about that
sort of thing. Who, if anyone, had to give approval for
use of the college for any purpose during the vacation?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Mr Gilbert the principal was on duty during that fortnight
of my holiday.
MR LATHAM
Did he speak to you on Friday, 9th August?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes, he did, he rang to ask which (inaudible) was referring
to. I had a conversation with Kevin Wells before I had
a conversation with Ian on the 8th August, and I mentioned
to Kevin that there was a house in the road when the (inaudible)
lived and I knew that house to be empty. He rang me to
ask which house I was referring to on Sand Street.
MR LATHAM
Did he tell you you what the police wanted to do in relation
to that house?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No. I spoke to the police officer direct whilst he was
telephoning me to point out which house it was.
MR LATHAM
Why did he need to know where the house was precisely?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Because he was with police officers who had asked him
where the house was that I was referring to.
MR LATHAM
What did you understand the police wanted to do with the
house?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Well I suppose check the grounds to see if they could
find the girls.
MR LATHAM
On Tuesday, 13th August did you speak to him?
MARGARET BRYDEN
That was the night of the Warren Hill incident.
MR LATHAM
Yes
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I rang Ian.
MR LATHAM
If we just pause there, you say the night of the Warren
Hill incident. I think there had been a report, hadn't
there, broadcast in the media, about Warren Hill?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Some recently disturbed earth had been found in the place
at Warren Hill?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And was that a topic of discussion when you spoke to Ian
Huntley?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, it was.
MR LATHAM
What did he say?
MARGARET BRYDEN
We talked about the possibility of the girls actually
not being alive at that point, if that's what the Warren
Hill investigation was going to prove and facilities would
have to be provided in school.
MR LATHAM
Did he say anything about himself at that time or anything
he had done in relation to the Warren Hill search that
was going on?
MARGARET BRYDEN
He told me that he had been to his GP and that he had
been given medication and was being tested for depression
and had high blood pressure.
MR LATHAM
Did he say anything about his own reaction to the Warren
Hill search that was going on?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I can't recall.
MR LATHAM
Did he ever say anything to you during the course of this
fortnight after the disappearance of the girls about his
own direct involvement in any way in the disappearance
of the girls?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, he told me he was the last person to see them alive.
MR LATHAM
Do you remember when he first told you that?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I would think that was the Warren Hill night that
he started to talk about them.
MR LATHAM
That he said he was the last person to see them? Did he
say anything else about seeing them?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I questioned him on how could he be the last person to
see them alive. He also said "If only I had said
something different".
MR LATHAM
What did he tell you, if anything, about that last sighting?
MARGARET BRYDEN
He talked about seeing the girls and the last thing after
Maxine Carr, and him saying she was not very well following
the fact she had not got a job at the primary school.
MR LATHAM
Did he say to you just once that he had been the last
person to speak to them during that conversation?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No, he said it several times.
MR LATHAM
Yes. Did you speak to him on Thursday, 15th August?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
What was that about?
MARGARET BRYDEN
there was a conversation. It was the night where there
was a meeting in Soham, a big public meeting, and I rang
him and he actually rang me on two occasions. One was
to speak about whether or not - the first time he rang
to ask if I was going to the public meeting and I said,
"No." and I also informed him that I had said
to Kevin Wells the previous evening that, indicating my
relief that the girls had not been found on Warren Hill,
if there was another evening where Kevin felt he needed
some space he was only to go round and collect the keys
from Ian and have access to the building if he wished
to have it. I told him that on that morning.
MR LATHAM
so that is Kevin Wells "having space" by being
on the school premises where he could be private, as it
were?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
on 16th August, the Friday, did you again speak to Ian
Huntley?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
what was that about?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I had had a phone call left on a voice-mail message from
the principal asking about ground maps. I spoke to Ian
saying we needed to go through carefully all the areas
because there could be certain areas of the school that
had not been searched.
MR LATHAM
underground areas?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did he say about that and the police searching underground
areas?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I went through the whole of the area with him and there
were certain areas he felt that, yes, they had been searched
fully but there was an area at Beechurst Hall, there is
an access in the ceiling for maintenance and when I went
through that he said they had not actually been there,
nor under the stage.
MR LATHAM
did - 101, the bottom of the page - did Ian Huntley, back
to more general conversation, ever mention any particular
interests outside work that he had?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
yes, he was involved in plane spotting and often would
spend a lot of time over at Lakenheath.
MR
LATHAM
can I ask about his motor car; were you aware he had a
motor car?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
and what sort of car was it?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
it was a red Fiesta.
MR LATHAM
where was it kept?
MARGARET BRYDEN
it was kept on the paving stones outside the caretaker's
house, outside 5 College Close.
MR LATHAM
that's the front of number 5?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
as it was in August last year we can see some paving slabs
leading up to the front door very much, as it were, pedestrian.
I put it that way, were they wide enough to take the width
of a motor car?
MARGARET BRYDEN
just about, but as you see from the photograph very often
the tyres would miss the paving stones.
MR
LATHAM
As you went round the site, your job in the eight months
leading up to August, would you go past number 5 or see
it in the distance on a regular basis, an almost daily
basis?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Not on a daily basis, but at least two or three times
a week as I did bus duty as part of my role as a member
of staff.
MR LATHAM
If the car was parked there, was it always parked in the
same way or did it vary day by day?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Roughly in the same way.
MR LATHAM
And would it be parked facing the house or reversed up
to the house?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No, it would be parked facing the house.
MR
LATHAM
Did you ever get fairly close up to that motor car so
that you could see the general condition of it, the way
it was kept?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Can you describe - did it vary in appearance or was it
normally in the same sort of condition when you saw it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Generally in the same condition. If they had been out,
you know, there would be mud that was on the car or if
they had been out plane spotting there might be the odd
papers in the back seat, etcetera.
MR
LATHAM
What sort of condition would he keep it on the inside,
for example did you ever see through the windows to see
what sort of condition it was in?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Well, generally , I would say that most of the storage
was in the back seat of the car.
MR
LATHAM
You have mentioned the dog that Ian and Maxine had with
them. Did that come with them to the site?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Oh yes, yes, she was quite an old dog.
MR
LATHAM
And you mentioned when we were talking about the house
that at the beginning you weren't concerned that they
should have pet with them in the house, did you have any
concerns about the dog ?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Ian had had an accident and I visited him in June. I became
concerned about the dog and how aggressive she could be,
as I visited him and I was on my way out and she was quite
aggressive, they had to control her and I was quite surprised
at that aggression.
MR LATHAM
It is indicated I think Mr Huntley would appreciate a
short break.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Very well. We'll stretch our legs, ten minutes that's
all and I bet you will be taken somewhere so you can't
speak to anybody. {short adjournment} .
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Mrs Bryden, page 1012. One building on the site near the
Lodeside buildings we have been referring to as the hangar,
I do not know if that is the school term for it. Do you
understand what I mean?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, it is the sports stroke technology storage area.
MR LATHAM
The Jury has been into that building so I can take matters
very shortly. There is a partition through the centre
of that building, isn't there?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
That's correct.
MR LATHAM
Not right up to the ceiling, and it is divided by purpose
into technology and machinery one side and sports equipment
at the other?
MARGARET BRYDEN
That's right.
MR LATHAM
I think you were aware that there were keys for the door
to the technology end and the main door to the sports
end?
MARGARET BRYDEN
That's correct.
MR LATHAM
And then there is a roller shutter as well, isn't there,
at the sports end?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, to allow the grounds maintenance to get PE equipment
in and out easily.
MR LATHAM
Yes. I think the college had quite a few keys for those
two locks, did it not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, they did.
MR LATHAM
Were you invited by the police to do your best, as it
were, to catalogue them in the sense of working out how
many had ever been acquired for those two doors - I'm
talking about the main access to each end - and where
they all were?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I think in the weeks after August of last year you were
able to catalogue virtually all the keys?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes, virtually all keys.
MR LATHAM
Perhaps I can deal with this way, would Mr Huntley have
had keys to the hangar?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, he would have had keys to the hangar. He would have
had access to those keys via the technology suite.
MR LATHAM
Presumably the building needs a significant number of
keys in order to- I'm talking about Lodeside and Beechurst,
there are an awful lot of doors with locks on?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Are they kept on central, for obvious reasons there is
no need to go public about where all keys to the buildings
are kept but are they kept for all doors in various places?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, they are and locked cabinets.
MR
LATHAM
And would the caretaker by definition have access to those
cabinets?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Oh yes.
MR LATHAM
By having access to those the caretaker would have access
to the hangar keys?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Correct.
MR LATHAM
1024, bin liners, bin bags. Now, I think on the site there
were some matching yellow large waste bins used outside
the buildings during term time?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Bright yellow ones we are talking about.
MR
LATHAM
Yes?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes, they were used on the playing fields, for the children
to put their litter in at lunch time.
MR
LATHAM
where did the school get the liners, the liners which
would be used in those bins?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
from a company called (inaudible).
MR
LATHAM
I think you checked the school records to find whether
or not there had been any order delivered of bags in the
summer of 2002, did you not?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
you found there to be a significant delivery in late June,
correct?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that is correct.
MR LATHAM
two and a half thousand in fact, 5 packs of 500?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
Where would they have been kept?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
they are stored by the caretaker and some them are actually
put in cleaning cupboards so one box at a time was distributed
amongst the (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
someone would obviously need to be on hand for those bins
to be changed to change over the bins when they were full
and put bags in?
MARGARET BRYDEN
the normal routine is there would be clean bags in the
bottom of the bin and then a bag spread over the top to
put litter in.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
so sorry - somebody made a noise and I missed a bit.
MR LATHAM
the normal procedure would be that you have----
MARGARET BRYDEN
we would have the storage of bin bags in the bottom of
the litter bins so that you had a full bin, tied it up
and there would be another plastic bag there ready to
use.
MR LATHAM
1025 H. As a site manager operating two significant buildings,
obviously the majority of the material consumed by the
site would tend to be delivered and paid for by paper
transactions by the school?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
That's correct.
MR LATHAM
2,500 bin liners, it would not be a case of paying somebody
cash when they turned up with the bin liners, but would
the site manager need access to small quantities of cash
during the course of normal working week or month?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, he would be allowed to spend money as petty cash,
for example, petrol, or if there was any other payment
needed in the holidays.
MR LATHAM
Did you come to an arrangement at the very end of term
with Mr Huntley in relation to petty cash and the holiday
which was just about to start?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes, we did.
MR LATHAM
What did you do?
MARGARET BRYDEN
We actually gave him cash so that he could actually purchase
any small maintenance equipment or any small sundries
that he may need for any works that he was doing.
MR LATHAM
At the end of the holiday he would need to do what?
MARGARET BRYDEN
At the end of the holiday he would need to hand in receipts
so he could hand over surplus money.
MR
LATHAM
Do you remember how much cash he was given?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I can't recall at the moment, 2 or 300 pounds.
MR LATHAM
Did Ian Huntley ever speak to you about his relationship
with Maxine Carr?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, there were times when- where they had had arguments
and Ian would be seen on site, particularly towards the
end of the summer term Ian came to my office, he was cleaning
out filing cabinets one evening and he said that Maxine
had not got the job at the primary school and she was
very upset and he didn't know how he was going to cope
with her at that time.
MR LATHAM
Apart from that specific occasion when clearly there was
upset as a result of disappointment over the job application,
did he ever talk to you about the relationship more generally?
MARGARET BRYDEN
There were occasions when he would refer to- he had an
argument with Maxine.
MR LATHAM
Would you describe the type of argument and what happened?
MARGARET BRYDEN
It would be more in the form of shouting and throwing
things at each other.
MR LATHAM
Was it just on one occasion that he described once incident
like that or did it happen more than once?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I think he made reference on two or three occasions, it
is hard to recall.
MR LATHAM
Did he indicate to you who was, as it were, in control
of the relationship in any way.
MR HUBBARD
That really is (inaudible).
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
it can't be evidence against her.
MR
HUBBARD
it is almost in the form of a leading question, too.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, it suggests something - you can ask a question that
starts did he say anything else about the relationship.
MR HUBBARD
the damage has been done.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
anyway, you go on, MR LATHAM.
MR LATHAM
did he give any other indication to you about the nature
of the relationship, how they related to each other?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I think that----
MR LATHAM
not what you think - it is what he said to you I'm interested
in?
MARGARET BRYDEN
he would make reference at times to a relationship whereby
Miss Carr would be telling him what to do.
MR
LATHAM
can I revert to the conversation you had with him on the
telephone on the night of what you have been describing
as the Warren Hill incident, when you said that he described
to you being the last person to have seen or to have spoken
to the girls. you were describing that shortly before
we broke off; you described that he mentioned that the
conversation with the girls had involved Maxine Carr?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
reference to Maxine Carr?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR LATHAM
did he give you any indication at all during that conversation
of the whereabouts of Maxine Carr?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I asked him over the whereabouts of Maxine Carr because
I had seen her on TV and I was under the impression that
she had gone away for the week. He told me that she had
never gone.
MR LATHAM
now, the conversation was obviously centred on the two
girls and what had been going on at Warren Hill. Did he
say anything about his views about the status of those
two girls by that stage, by the Warren Hill time?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I don't recall.
MR LATHAM
the girls had not been found at that stage and would he
make any reference to (inaudible) what happened there
on in relation to those two girls?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I still believed until the Saturday the girls were found,
I still believed we would find them alive. I was asked
by Ian what did I think, where were they or did I think
they were still alive and I said yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
What did he say, if anything, about his belief?
MARGARET BRYDEN
he didn't.
MR LATHAM
he didn't? you said that you had met Jessica Chapman at
the time of the preparations for the prom and she was
not yet a pupil at college, she was still at the junior
school. Was there some work being done in the college
toward the end of June which had involved another member
of the Chapman family?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes, the older daughter was involved in being a prom committee
member and they have a prom when they all dress up and
do celebrations.
MR LATHAM
Rebecca the eldest sister was involved in that?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, she was.
MR LATHAM
During the time Rebecca was doing the work sorting out
getting ready for this prom, was Jessica around at all?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, Jessica came in because Mrs Chapman had (inaudible)
Rebecca and brought Jessica into school she assisted with
as it were streamers etcetera that Ian Huntley was erecting.
MR LATHAM
So Ian Huntley was also helping with the preparations
for the prom?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, along with "Michael Gee", they were actually
the caretakers supervising in putting the decorations
where the children asked for them to go.
MR
LATHAM
Rebecca was working on the decorations too?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes all working in the same room? Yes, all in Lodeside
hall.
MR LATHAM
And you said Jessica was there as well for a time?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Jessica came in with her mother and they stayed because
Rebecca was not ready to be collected at that time.
MR LATHAM
Were you aware of an announcement which was made by the
then officer in charge of the inquiry, that a message
was going to be left on Jessica's voice mail message box
on her mobile telephone?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Were you aware that that was going to happen? In relation
to the conversation you have already told us about with
Ian Huntley concerning the public meeting on the Thursday
night of the second week, that was at around the time
of the announcement of the message which was to be left
on the telephone, wasn't it?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
The message on the telephone had to be read by midnight
of that Thursday evening.
MR LATHAM
Did you ever speak in any way to Mr Huntley about that
topic?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I had a conversation about mobile phones and whether or
not how could you charge up a mobile phone and the example
I gave when we talked about this----
MR
LATHAM
This is talking to?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Talking to Ian Huntley at this time on the telephone my
husband and I both shared but we had different connections
to charge them and I spoke about well even if you had
a Nokia telephone and the battery was dead, you don't
necessarily have the same connections and gave that as
an example. I also said that there was a way of transferring
information via sim cards but didn't know how to do it.
The children would know how to do that.
MR
LATHAM
What, if anything, did he say when you were providing
this personal information that you were aware of, what
if anything did he say about this topic?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
What we have to bear in mind is we were talking in general
at that time, the facts were that he asked me what, how
would they charge the phone if it was dead.
MR LATHAM
Who raised that topic, do you remember?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I think possibly he may have raised that topic.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much, would you wait there?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
thank you.
MR COWARD
how many children are there in the school, in both Beechurst
and Lodeside put together?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
do you want at the time of the events or do you want now?
At the time of the events there would be 1,035.
MR COWARD
(Inaudible) There were concerns, weren't there, shared
by the governors of the school about the position and
how (inaudible) he was the site manager, and therefore,
during the interviewing process, all of the applicants
were asked some rather tricky questions as to how they
would deal with a potential difficulty that might crop
up?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley, you have told the members of the jury, answered
the questions in an exemplary fashion, and you were impressed
by the way he said he would deal with things?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I was.
MR COWARD
the essence of what he was saying to you at that interview
was, should that situation arise - with a girl too close
to the caretaker - that he would report it to a senior
member of staff for the position to be dealt with?
MARGARET BRYDEN
yes.
MR COWARD
in actual fact, it happened, didn't it?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
yes, it did.
MR COWARD
sometime in July?
MARGARET BRYDEN
that's correct.
MR COWARD
and it was reported to you and dealt with?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
it was not only reported to me, it was reported to the
principal too, and we both dealt with it. I dealt with
it with the girl in question.
MR COWARD
so far as alarm systems are concerned, you said that three
of the caretaking staff had knowledge of the alarm systems,
Mr Huntley, Ruth Odey, and Michael Gee?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
correct.
MR COWARD
did any members of the staff have access to alarm systems
as well?
MARGARET BRYDEN
myself.
MR COWARD
and Mr Gilbert?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Mr Gilbert would only have access to Beechurst.
MR COWARD
he being particularly concerned with Beechurst?
MARGARET BRYDEN
simply because his office is on that side.
MR
COWARD
I see. You told us about the floodings that took place
on 30th July; that was quite serious flooding, wasn't
it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
it was very serious.
MR COWARD
if the jury remember, the hall with the steps up which
lead you to the caretaker's office, if you are standing
on the steps looking over the hall, the water came down
the corridor and covered the entire floor of the assembly
hall didn't it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No, it didn't cover the entire floor of the assembly hall;
it actually stopped, fortunately, at the doors. I'm sure
the jury would remember that it was a parquet flooring
in that hall when they walked on it, and that would have
led to a major crisis, so we were fortunate it didn't
get as far as that.
MR COWARD
Inevitably, carpeting was sodden by the water?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
And a quantity of it was thrown away in a skip, wasn't
it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
A large quantity, yes.
MR COWARD
You went away from the site, and perhaps the concern as
well, on Friday, 2nd August, about seven o'clock in the
evening when were you physically back in Soham?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I came back after the weekend that the arrest had been
made, I came back on Monday.
MR COWARD
During one of the conversations you had with Mr Huntley,
you told us he said to you that he was being hounded by
the press and he needed to get away for the weekend. When
he came back, what was the press involvement then, how
many members of the press were there?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
I didn't see any when I arrived back, the police had cordoned
off.
MR COWARD
They had left by then?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
You he said he was planning to go away for the weekend
because of the flooding. Did Mr Huntley have jobs to do
over the summer break?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
Was there quite extensive work that had to be done?
MARGARET BRYDEN
A great amount of work had to be done. Some of the cleaning
that had already taken place before the flooding had to
be redone and skirting boards of floors etcetera, there
was a tremendous amount of work to be done.
MR COWARD
You have spoken of a number of telephone calls you had
with Ian Huntley before you came back to Soham and you
spoke about one of them on the Warren Hill day which we
know was the 13th August?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
You told the Members of the Jury that you rang him. He
told you he had been to his general practitioner and he
- according to the evidence you have given today - said
to you he was "the last person to see them alive".?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
Are you sure that's right?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes, because I asked how could he be the last person to
see them alive, there had been sightings of the girls;
he was not the only one that had seen them.
MR COWARD
Before you came into court to give your evidence, Mrs
Bryden, did you have an opportunity to look at numerous
statements that you have given to the police?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I did.
MR COWARD
I wonder in that connection if you could have a look,
please, at the statement at 1009 I shall be referring
to, which is in a statement dated 18th August, I would
be grateful if a copy of the 18th August statement could
be handed to you. Thank you very much. Would you turn,
please, to the 4th page of that statement, it may have
1009 at the bottom right hand corner. About eight or nine
lines up do you see this "He also said he had been
the last one to speak to them. He kept repeating this
phrase throughout our conversation". Having had an
opportunity to look at that afresh, and to remind yourself
what you are saying on the 18th August, would you like
to change what you have already said to the Jury?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I think there were times where he said during that conversation
he was the last one to see them alive and he was the last
one to have spoken to them.
MR COWARD
Have look, would you, Mrs Bryden, to see if you find anywhere
in this statement the phrase "He was the last person
to see them, or he was the last person to see them alive".
it is not there, is it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No.
MR COWARD
How can that be?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Basically I gave my statement to the police on the first
day. I think you will find in other statements I have
referred to it.
MR COWARD
You see, here you are, and it is no criticism of you because
time has passed, in November 2003 doing your best to recollect
a conversation in August 2002?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
Do you remember your diary does not give details of the
conversation, it just said rang in or Ian rang?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
At the time you gave this information it is five days
after the telephone conversation?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
And no doubt you were doing your best at that time to
reflect accurately what you and Ian Huntley discussed,
weren't you?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
And doesn't it follow as day follows night that what you
were saying on the 18th August is likely to be right and
what you now recollect is likely to be slightly wrong,
to be fair?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I would say that there were occasions where he referred
to being the last person to see them alive, although it
is not in the statement.
MR COWARD
You see Mrs Bryden when you gave your evidence about this
topic, never did you issue, as I noted, that he had said
the words he was "the last person to speak to them".
You did say was, he said "If only I had said something
different "?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Excuse me it says on the bottom there that he also said
I was the last to speak to them.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
You are not following the question, ask it again in a
more simple form.
MR COWARD
When you gave your evidence to the jury earlier on today
you said to them "He told me he was the last person
to see them alive, I think it was the Warren Hill night
we had that conversation, and he said, 'If only I had
said something different'". For him to say to you
"If only I had said something different", suggests,
doesn't it, that he was speaking about conversations that
he had had with them?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
You were asked whether there were other occasions, you
have said there were other occasions from which you cover
this topic. My Lord I'm looking at 1025 M so you can have
it as well, it is a statement of 16 pages, dated 27th
January of this year.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Have you got it there?
MARGARET BRYDEN
No.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
1025 A, 27th January .
MR COWARD
A statement of January this year. About five lines down
in that statement, you are recorded as saying this "I
recall saying to him 'Tell me what you said to the girls,
why do you think it makes you the last person to see them'
and he said "Well, I was the last person to have
seen them, I was the last person to speak to them"?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I'm afraid I have not got that reference.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
It is not mine 1025 A.
MR COWARD
M for mother. Now, this is in January of this year, you
are being asked again to go over some ground we have covered
over five days, that was events on 18th August in that
statement. So have you it? I will read it again "I
recall saying to him, tell me what you said to the girls.
Why do you think it makes you the last person to see them?"
and he said "Well, I was the last person to have
seen them, I was the last person to speak to them".
Is that one of the the passages that you were referring
to?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes.
MR COWARD
When you said you had dealt with this topic on other occasions.
Why was it, Mrs Bryden, that you put it as you did on
the 18th August that he said he was the last person to
have spoken to them, and by January, and in your evidence
now, you are talking about him seeing them as well, the
last person to see them. How can it be?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Those are the facts, that's exactly as I recall the conversation.
On the January one that was quite intense interviewing
I was given, then, on the Sunday following the girls being
found, it was a very very quick interview procedure.
MR COWARD
Can I put it this way, by January 2003, am I right in
thinking you appreciated the significance of the difference
between the two speaking to them and seeing them?
MARGARET BRYDEN
no.
MR COWARD
do you appreciate the significance now?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
no, because those are the facts (inaudible).
MR COWARD
just think about it if a person says "I was the last
person to see X" and, "I was the last person
to speak to X "; do you see the difference?
MARGARET BRYDEN
oh yes, I there is a difference but both statements were
made.
MR COWARD
but the other half does not seem to have got into your
statement of 18th August for some reason, does it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
no.
MR COWARD
can I just deal with one other topic with your help, please?
That concerns the conversation about mobile telephones.
What had happened was that there had been a press conference,
hadn't there, where a senior police officer had given
whoever was believed to have abducted Holly and Jessica
an opportunity to ring him to hand over the girls, not
make to make things worse - this was the essence of it,
wasn't it?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I don't know whether that was the essence, all we were
led to believe was there was a message on a mobile phone,
that the police had left a message there. What the message
was I have no idea.
MR COWARD
you had a conversation with Mr Huntley about this?
MARGARET BRYDEN
did----
MR COWARD
do you recollect that Mr Huntley was saying to you that
he had spoken to people with regard to how you retrieve
phone messages in circumstances that applied, and you
were saying you weren't sure how it would work?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I was, I wasn't sure how you could recharge the phone;
I did mention the SIM card, I had already said I wasn't
sure how you worked out how to put SIM cards into the
machine.
MR COWARD
you were not pretending to be an expert on mobile phones
with your passing on what you understood from other people?
MARGARET BRYDEN
and to what I know - I know my phone couldn't be charged
by my husband's connection, I had information that SIM
cards could be taken from previous knowledge in a school
where children have actually done that, but how to do
it I just didn't know.
MR COWARD
that was the level of the conversation you were having
with Mr Huntley?
MARGARET BRYDEN
it was.
MR COWARD
thank you very much.
MR HUBBARD
you are being invited to comment on what Mr Huntley said
to you about his relationship with Carr. Mr Huntley confided
with you over many aspects of his private life, did he
not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
could I say what do you mean by, "many aspects"?
MR HUBBARD
did he ever confide in you about his private life?
MARGARET BRYDEN
if he had had an argument with Maxine he very often would
refer to it because he could be quite sullen.
MR HUBBARD
I'm not specifically dealing with Maxine, in other areas
of his private life he confided in you for some reason,
didn't he?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, he did. He confided in me about his father.
MR HUBBARD
I'm not going to go into detail but you said he made some
pretty shocking and outrageous allegations about his father,
did he not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
He did.
MR HUBBARD
He made some pretty shocking allegations about what had
happened to him in his early life?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
That's correct.
MR HUBBARD
Did it ever occur to you that he lived in a world of his
own fantasy?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I don't understand the question.
MR
HUBBARD
Did you ever think he was making things up?
MARGARET BRYDEN
There were times when I felt he exaggerated things but
not made them up.
MR HUBBARD
Because you judged his nature, I think, to be always eager
to please and gain praise?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
That's correct.
MR HUBBARD
And you Mrs Bryden have a pretty good judge of character
in relation to (inaudible). In this case you had to make
a judgment about Mr Huntley and you found him suitable
for the job?
MARGARET BRYDEN
I found he was suitable for the job.
MR
LATHAM
One matter you have been asked to look at two witness
statements, the one you need immediately, that was when
the girls disappeared, found dated 18th August. I think
you have that in front of you?
MARGARET
BRYDEN
Yes.
MR LATHAM
The top right hand corner of the first page, does it tell
you how many pages there are in that statement?
MARGARET BRYDEN
It says six.
MR LATHAM
You have said that "the police came to you at a later
stage" and you used the word "interviewed you"?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, it seemed like that, yes.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
"More intensive interviews"
is what she said.
MR LATHAM
More intensive interviews. You have also got that witness
statement in front of you. I think that starts at 1025
A, have you not?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, I have.
MR LATHAM
The front page of that statement, does that indicate how
long that statement was?
MARGARET BRYDEN
Yes, 1 to 16.
MR LATHAM
My Lord no other questions.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
Thank you.
MR LATHAM
Thank you very much, Mrs Bryden
(the witness withdrew).
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