| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
13/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Thursday, 13 November 2003
SKY News
MR LATHAM is the chief prosecutor and MR JUSTICE
MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07
MR LATHAM
My Lord, my learned friend
MR COWARD
has indicated he wishes to raise a matter with my Lord
we will need to resolve , I wonder if it is a convenient
time at ten to one if the jujury have a slightly longer
lunch break. Hearing adjourned - will resume after lunch
MR LATHAM
Mr Butler can you look across towards me, talk to me and
make sure that I can hear what you are saying and then
we'll all be able to hear. Can you start by telling us
your full name, please?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Jonathan Lee Butler.
MR LATHAM
How old are you now?
JONATHAN BUTLER
18.
MR LATHAM
I think in October 2001 you got a job at Soham Village
College, didn't you?
JONATHAN BUTLER
That's right.
MR LATHAM
And what was your job there?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
As caretaker.
MR LATHAM
Were you the only caretaker on the site at the time?
JONATHAN BUTLER
There was another caretaker there before me.
MR LATHAM
I think by Christmas time of 2001 Ian Huntley had started
work?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Correct.
MR LATHAM
I think he was in charge of the caretakers at the site,
wasn't he?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
So he was the person to whom you reported directly, if
you needed to sort something out?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes, that's right.
MR LATHAM
Correct? I think you worked with Ruth Odi and Michael
Gee as well?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you have an office, the four of you, at the school?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where was it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Behind the stage.
MR LATHAM
Right. Over in the Beechurst site there is a little room
called the switch room, isn't there?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
From time to time would you go to that room?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And there was a computer in there, I think, wasn't there?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you ever use that computer?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
At the time I didn't.
MR LATHAM
Who was the person who used the computer in the switch
room?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Ian and Ruth and Michael.
MR LATHAM
You worked with Ian Huntley from the time of his arrival
at the school through to August of last year, didn't you?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I want to ask you about a number of matters. Firstly,
this you worked with him for eight months, nine months
or so, did you go out with him socially at all?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Many times or just a few?
JONATHAN BUTLER
A few occasions.
MR LATHAM
I think on one occasion, on the weekend of Friday, 2nd
August, Saturday 3rd, Sunday 4th, and then of course the
disappearance of the girls in Soham, which was public
knowledge on the Monday, wasn't it, that weekend, you
had a conversation with Ian about doing something with
him socially didn't you?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes
MR LATHAM
Can you remember what he said first of all - he expected
was going to happen that weekend so far as he was concerned
and Maxine?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
You can't remember? Did you see him on the Saturday?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
you did?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you in fact go anywhere with him on the Saturday?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you go?
JONATHAN BUTLER
The Black Horse pub in Littleton.
MR
LATHAM
was that evening?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
Saturday evening. How did you get to the Black Horse?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Ian's car.
MR LATHAM
what sort of car did he have?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
a red Fiesta.
MR LATHAM
did you go on your own with him or was there somebody
else in the car?
JONATHAN BUTLER
my friend had come as well.
MR LATHAM
was that somebody who worked at the college?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no, just a friend of mine.
MR LATHAM
you - friend of yours?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you meet him to get in his car? Did he come
and collect you or did you go to him?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
went to his house.
MR LATHAM
you to his house?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
on that Saturday did you see Maxine Carr there or not?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no.
MR LATHAM
did he say anything about Maxine either when you got to
the house or during the course of the evening?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
did you know where she was?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
he said she was in Grimsby.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
she was in or going?
JONATHAN BUTLER
going to Grimsby.
MR LATHAM
she was going to Grimsby?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
did he say when she was going to Grimsby?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
how far is the Black Horse from his home? Is it in Soham?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no, it is in Littleport.
MR LATHAM
Littleport?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Littleport.
MR LATHAM
a few miles away from Soham, isn't it?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
was the Fiesta that you went in on the Saturday evening
a car you had ever been in before?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
I want to ask you one or two things about the car if I
may - page 104 what sort of condition was it in, how clean
was it when you went in it?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
tidy condition.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
JONATHAN BUTLER
tidy condition.
MR LATHAM
tidy condition, was it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
what about inside the car, what is was it like inside?
JONATHAN BUTLER
clean.
MR LATHAM
what did it have on the floor?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
on the floor?
MR LATHAM
the floor of the car?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I don't remember.
MR LATHAM
can you remember the colour of the floor, if you can't
remember what was on it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
(inaudible).
MR LATHAM
you told us on the Saturday evening you went to Littleport
in the car, do you remember driving in it again before
Ian Huntley was arrested?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
you did?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
how soon was it before he was arrested that you went in
the car again?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I'm not sure.
MR LATHAM
was it after the Saturday you went to Littleport that
you went in the car again? Did you notice anything about
the car when you got into it on that occasion?
JONATHAN BUTLER
after?
MR LATHAM
yes, the next time you went in it after going to Littleport?
JONATHAN BUTLER
the smell.
MR LATHAM
it smelt?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
can you try and help the jury with what you mean by smelt,
what sort of smell was it?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
a strong smell. I said it smelt like Polyfilla.
MR LATHAM
Polyfilla?
JONATHAN BUTLER
body filler.
MR LATHAM
body filler?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
you could smell it, could you?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
did either of you say anything about the smell?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
who raised the topic of the smell?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Ian.
MR LATHAM
what did he say?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't really remember.
MR LATHAM
Did you drive with the windows closed on that occasion?
JONATHAN BUTLER
They were.
MR LATHAM
Was the car locked before you got to it or was he already
driving it, what was the position?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I think it was locked.
MR LATHAM
It was locked and you were going somewhere in it with
Ian, were you?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Were the windows closed when you first got into it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Closed.
MR LATHAM
Did you open the window or leave it closed?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Sorry.
MR LATHAM
Did you open the window or did you leave it closed?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I--
MR LATHAM
What about his window?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I think he as well. . [inaudible]
MR
LATHAM
On the Sunday did you go into the centre of Soham around
lunch time?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you see Ian Huntley that day at all?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where did you see him?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Drove past at first then he came over to us.
MR LATHAM
You saw him driving by and then later on foot?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you see where he had been, or what he had done? Did
he tell you where he had been?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
He said he was going to rent a DVD.
MR
LATHAM
Rent a DVD? Are there many places to get a DVD in - where
do you get them in Soham?
JONATHAN BUTLER
There is only one place.
MR LATHAM
Where is that?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Near the war memorial.
MR LATHAM
Do you know what it is called?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Blockbusters.
MR LATHAM
Blockbusters? That was Sunday, on the Monday, did you
go into work?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What sort of time would you start work?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Half seven or eight o'clock.
MR LATHAM
Was there a time you were expected to be at the school
by?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I'm not sure, I think eight o'clock.
MR
LATHAM
But you got there before eight, did you?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
When you got there, did you see Ian Huntley that morning?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
How soon after you arrived at the school?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
As soon as I arrived.
MR LATHAM
Did he say something to you, did he tell you something?
JONATHAN BUTLER
He asked me if I knew anything about two missing girls.
MR LATHAM
Did you know anything about two missing girls, and did
you at that point?
JONATHAN BUTLER
That was the first time I had heard.
MR
LATHAM
Where was this said?
JONATHAN BUTLER
(inaudible).
MR LATHAM
Did you know anything about two missing girls, you didn't?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No.
MR LATHAM
What did he say then?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
Was anything further said about these two missing girls
on that morning ?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
You had just got to work, did he say anything at all about
what he had been doing before you got there?
JONATHAN BUTLER
About the searching with the police.
MR
LATHAM
Searching with the police. When was that, did he tell
you when it was he had been doing this searching?
JONATHAN BUTLER
The night before.
MR LATHAM
The night before?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you notice anything about his appearance on that morning?
JONATHAN BUTLER
He wasn't wearing his normal work clothes.
MR
LATHAM
He wasn't wearing his normal work clothes and what about
his physical appearance?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Tired.
MR LATHAM
Tired? Did he say anything about what he intended to do
that day? You had turned up to start your work day?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
If it had been a more normal day, if there had not been
the two girls who had disappeared, would Ian Huntley have
been on the site that day?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Do you remember if he was on the site that morning or
not, after you had met up in the little office?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
Can I ask you about different topic, the hangar, do you
know the building I'm talking about when I say the hangar?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you ever go into the hangar as part of your duties?
We know it was divided into two sides, the technology
side and the sports side. Both sides you go into or just
one?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Just the PE side.
MR LATHAM
The?
JONATHAN BUTLER
PE side.
MR LATHAM
The PE side. Was that hangar normally locked, or would
it be unlocked during the day time?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Locked.
MR LATHAM
it is quite a large site, the school college site, and
the jury has been round and had a look. was there a petrol-driven
machine used for keeping the site clean and tidy - where
was that kept?
JONATHAN BUTLER
that was in the case.
MR LATHAM
the other side of the hangar?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
who drove it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I normally did.
MR LATHAM
you told us you would go into the PE side as part of your
job, how would you get the sweeper, if you drove that,
if it was in the technology side?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I would ask one of the technology technicians for the
key.
MR LATHAM
and drive the sweeper out and use it on the site. it had
a petrol engine, I think, didn't it?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
where was the petrol for the sweeper kept?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
the petrol?
MR LATHAM
Yes, obviously it had a petrol tank on the machine, but
where would you keep spare petrol?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
with the sweeper.
MR LATHAM
what was it kept in?
JONATHAN BUTLER
a petrol can.
MR LATHAM
a petrol can. the colour of the petrol can?
JONATHAN BUTLER
red.
MR LATHAM
now, if you were using the sweeper regularly, obviously
you would use petrol, you fill up the tank of the machine
again from your red petrol can, what would happen once
the can was empty?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I would get either Ian or Michael to fill it up.
MR LATHAM
Right. .
MR LATHAM
Get them to fill it up?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Who would be paying for the petrol, did you know?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No.
MR LATHAM
So you would just hand over the can?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Would you use the sweeper on the site during the holiday
period or was it used normally only when the site was
operational with---?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Mostly when the site had the children.
MR
LATHAM
When it had children around?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
In fact had you used the sweeper between the end of term
and the time when the children went missing?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You had?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you see the red petrol can at all after the girls
had gone missing at any stage?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You did?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where was it when you saw it?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I had given it to Ian.
MR LATHAM
You gave it to Ian? Where did you give it to Ian?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember where I was.
MR LATHAM
Sorry?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember where I was when I gave it to Ian.
MR LATHAM
Once you had given it him, did you see him again with
that red petrol can?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I didn't see him with it, no.
MR LATHAM
You didn't?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No.
MR LATHAM
Having given it to him did you ever see the red can again?
JONATHAN BUTLER
When it had petrol in?
MR LATHAM
When it had got petrol in?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where was it then?
JONATHAN BUTLER
In the office.
MR LATHAM
In the office? Can you remember which day that was that
you saw the petrol can in the office?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't.
MR LATHAM
How soon was that after the girl's disappeared did you
see the can in the office?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
Was it just sitting there on its own or was somebody with
it at the time you saw it?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Ruth was in the office and (inaudible).
MR
LATHAM
That's Ruth Odi?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Anyone else?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No, just Ruth.
MR LATHAM
The petrol can, what did you do with it, if anything,
when you saw it in the office, did you touch it or just
leave it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Picked it up to see if there was petrol in it.
MR LATHAM
Did it have petrol in?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Had it been empty when you handed it to Ian, when you
handed the can to him?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You picked it up and it was full. Did you see it again
after that?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No.
MR LATHAM
Did you take it away or leave in the office?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I left it where it was.
MR LATHAM
Did you in fact ever use that red can again?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no.
MR LATHAM
did you use the sweeper again on the site before the girls'
bodies were found and the hangar was closed up?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no.
MR LATHAM
can we deal with the red can? You are saying if, handing
it over to Ian empty then feeling it was full when you
saw it in the office that time when Ruth Odi was there.
Have you told us about the Monday that you went into work
when Ian told you he had been out looking, or helping
the police look, for the girls the night before. There
came a time, didn't there, nearly a fortnight later, when
the hangar was suddenly closed down by the police and
you weren't allowed, no-one was allowed, to go near the
hangar, do you remember that?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
were you working on the site in August-September that
time last year?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
you are still at the school; now, what happened to the
hangar last year, was anything put up near the hangar?
Have you been able to get into the hangar this last year?
Why can't you get into the hangar?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
it had green----
MR LATHAM
the green shuttering round?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
JONATHAN BUTLER
Do you remember when the police took over the hangar and
put the shuttering around?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
no.
MR LATHAM
The keys to the hangar you told us if you needed to get
into the technology site to get at the sweeper you would
ask one of the technology assistants for the key - and
then what? You would hand the key back to that person
when you had finished
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
If you wanted to get into the other side, the sports side,
where would you get the key in order to do that?
JONATHAN BUTLER
the key (inaudible)
MR LATHAM
in the caretaker's office there was a key for the hangar
side?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
a hook for the keys?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you need to go into that side just occasionally or
regularly as part of your job?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
almost every day.
MR LATHAM
was there something stored in that side that you needed
to get at on a daily basis?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yellow bins.
MR LATHAM
the yellow bins?
MR LATHAM
during terms time, what would happen with those yellow
bins?
JONATHAN BUTLER
they would be put out in the playing field.
MR LATHAM
put out on a playing field? did they stay out overnight?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No, they would be brought back in.
MR
LATHAM
whose job was it to do that?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
mine.
MR LATHAM
so you had, at the beginning of the school day, you had
to open that part up, get the bins out and at the end
of the day pack them away again?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR LATHAM
I would like you to look at a photograph if you will,
please. Do you recognise that from the photograph?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
That is the inside of the sports side of the hangar isn't
it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
We can see there several yellow bins, do you recognise
those?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Are those the bins you have been talking about?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
When you took them out onto the playing field, would you
use the roller shutter door or the double - I think they
are metal doors closer to the bins we see in the photograph?
JONATHAN BUTLER
The smaller doors.
MR LATHAM
The smaller doors. The bin, the plastic bins, yellow bins,
have an external yellow plastic skin with a sort of bucket
- aluminium galvanised bucket?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did they also have bin liners?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Not always.
MR LATHAM
So some the bins, when you put them out on the playing
field what, would just have the galvanised bucket?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No, I put the bag in them.
MR LATHAM
You put the bag in. So when you put them out for use they
would always have a bag in?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
How quickly would they fill up, everyday or---?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Depending if it was a hot day.
MR LATHAM
Would you empty them every night or wait until the bags
were full?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I would wait until they were full.
MR
LATHAM
When the bag was full, you would have to take it out of
the bin?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What would you do with the top of the bag as you took
it out of the bin?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Tie it.
MR LATHAM
Right. Now, were these bags, did they have any handles?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No.
MR LATHAM
They were just a plain top to them?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
How would you, did you tie them in the same way or just
any old way or did you have a special way to do it as
far as you were concerned?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I done it same every time.
MR LATHAM
The same. All the time? Could you just show us or tell
us how you would do up the knot?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I would get the two sides and tie them, then tie it again.
MR LATHAM
So you scrunched up each hand, bring it across?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Tie it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Then?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Tie the same bits you have in your hands.
MR
LATHAM
Again?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
A full knot?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
That's how you would tie up the bins?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Obviously you would be gradually using these bin liners
up as they were filling up and you were getting rid of
them?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where would you get the replacement liners from?
JONATHAN BUTLER
From one of the cleaners' cupboards.
MR
LATHAM
And carry it just one at a time or would it take a lot
over?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Sometimes take a handful, to save keep going back.
MR LATHAM
Where did you put the full bin liners on the site to get
rid of them?
JONATHAN BUTLER
In a skip, or leave them there and take them the next
day.
MR LATHAM
There is a skip somewhere you would use?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where was that skip?
JONATHAN BUTLER
It was in Lodeside car park.
MR LATHAM
The keys that you would use that you got from the cupboard
for the hangar, there is another photograph, do you see
that is the bunch of keys with the green label?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Do you recognise that or not?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Right. What is that bunch of keys for?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
The hangar.
MR LATHAM
The hangar? Where did the bunch normally live?
JONATHAN BUTLER
In the key cabinet.
MR LATHAM
Is that the bunch you would use if you wanted to get into
the PE side?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you ever go into Ian Huntley's house, number 5?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Just going the once or regularly or from time to time,
what would you do?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Nearly every break.
MR LATHAM
Nearly every break?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
When would your breaks be in the day?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Between about half ten and 11 o'clock.
MR
LATHAM
So middle of the morning?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Any other time of day?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Again, now and again at 1 o'clock.
MR
LATHAM
Most working days you would go in at break time?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Unless Ian was working.
MR LATHAM
Yes, so if he was about the two of you would go back to
his house for the short break?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What part of the house would you go into?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
The kitchen.
MR LATHAM
And there is, or was, a back doorway of getting into the
kitchen and then there was the front door in the house,
which way in would you use?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
The front door.
MR LATHAM
So you would go in through the front door, through the
hall and the kitchen door would be on your right hand
side, wouldn't it as you came into the hall?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you ever go into other parts of the house or did you
just stick to the kitchen?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I had gone into other parts of the house.
MR
LATHAM
Sorry?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes I have gone into other parts of the house.
MR LATHAM
What other parts of the house have you been in?
JONATHAN BUTLER
The downstairs toilet and the living room.
MR
LATHAM
Right. How would you describe the inside of the house
on the occasions that you visited?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Spacious.
MR LATHAM
Spacious and tidy. What was the kitchen like - you say
the house was tidy, what was the kitchen like.
JONATHAN BUTLER
Sometimes dirty plates.
MR LATHAM
Dirty plates?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Just one thing can I take you back to the Saturday night
when you went out to Littleport to the pub for a drink?
You remember if while you were there Ian Huntley got any
telephone calls?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
You can't remember? Would you wait there, please.
MR COWARD
Just a few things for you, you talked about an occasion
when you went to the Black Horse at Littleport with Ian
Huntley and one was on the Saturday, we know that was
the 3rd August. You met at his house, you didn't see Maxine
Carr there, do you remember Ian Huntley said to you that
she had gone to Grimsby, do you remember Grimsby?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR COWARD
Did he say she had gone to Grimsby?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR COWARD
You talk about an occasion when there was a smell in the
car. I have had a chance to look at a statement that you
made (my Lord page 1047).
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
Yes.
MR COWARD
When you say that you think that occasion when you smelt
the smell of the car was Friday 16th August?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR COWARD
Now you were making that statement back in 2002 in October,
things will be clearer in your mind then than you remember
now wouldn't they?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR COWARD
It may well be that it was 16th August if that's what
you said?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Is anybody going to ask what body filler smells like?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Obviously you all repair your own cars so you all know.
MR COWARD
All the time.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Probably get somebody to do it. Anybody want to ask or
is it assumed we all know.
MR COWARD
Mr Butler can you describe in any other way the sort of
smell, I know smells are difficult to describe, what body
filler smells like?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Like a sweet smell, it gets in the back of your throat,
a strong smell.
MR COWARD
Have you ever done any aircraft modelling?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
No.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I thought you were going to say don't.
MR
COWARD
One other matter of the petrol can. There had been a flood
at the school at the end of July, quite a bad one and
I think you used the sweeper after you had the flood at
school?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR COWARD
The petrol can had become empty, the red one?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR COWARD
Now it wasn't your job to buy more petrol, that was for
Ian to do. You took the can to Ian and he got some petrol
so that you could use it if you needed it again for the
sweeper?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
we know that on the Tuesday after the girls went missing
on the Sunday Ian Huntley went to Grimsby and picked up
Maxine. Did you know he was going to Grimsby?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no.
MR COWARD
could you have a look at a photograph, please, we may
have it on our magic screen. it is the photograph of the
boot of the car and in our bundles, members of the jury,
it is next to the end in section 7, you have it on the
screen now. Now, that is a photograph taken, Mr Butler,
of the boot of Ian Huntley's Ford Fiesta, and we can see
there is a petrol can in that boot?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
is that petrol can the same as, identical to, the one
you had at the college?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes, identical to.
MR COWARD
exactly the same?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
as that one there?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
when you wanted some petrol putting in the can, did you
bring the can into the caretaker's office at Lodeside
to give it to Ian?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I took it in.
MR COWARD
you took it in?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
when you saw it filled up was that in the office at Lodeside?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
do you know what happened to the can after that?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no.
MR COWARD
because if this is the same can, we see it has got into
the boot of the Fiesta - but you can't help us as to how
it got into the boot of the Fiesta?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
no.
MR COWARD
very well. a final matter I think you are a smoker, or
you were then?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
when you and Ian had your break you used to go back to
his house and have a bite to eat and a cigarette?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
on occasions when you went there there were dirty plates
in the kitchen. when you used to go to Ian's house, was
Maxine there every time, some of the time or none of the
time?
JONATHAN BUTLER
some of the time, not every time.
MR
COWARD
some of the time?
JONATHAN BUTLER
yes.
MR COWARD
did you notice any difference about dirty plates in the
kitchen on days when Maxine was there?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
no.
MR COWARD
you can't remember one way or the other?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
no.
MR COWARD
Mr Butler, thank you very much.
MR
HUBBARD
Mr Butler, Saturday 3rd August you are in the Black Horse
with Mr Huntley and your friend Gary?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR HUBBARD
at that time you knew, or Huntley had told you, Maxine
Carr was in Grimsby - you knew that by the Saturday, didn't
you?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR HUBBARD
I want to see what you can remember and jog your memory
a bit. you were asked just a moment ago by the prosecution
whether there was a telephone call on that Saturday, 3rd
August, from Maxine Carr do you remember a telephone call
now?
JONATHAN BUTLER
No.
MR HUBBARD
After the public house visit you went back to Ian Huntley's
home didn't you?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Say that again please.
MR HUBBARD
On 3rd August, Saturday, 3rd August, leaving the public
house, you go back to Huntley's house?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
No.
MR HUBBARD
Where did you go?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Was dropped off outside a shop in Soham.
MR
HUBBARD
I want you to think carefully. Do you remember one of
the first questions you were asked by the prosecution
as you came into the witness box was whether Huntley had
told you the car was going to Grimsby, do you remember.
(inaudible) she did. Are you beginning to remember things,
you are in the witness box now, about the Saturday, are
things coming back to you?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Sort of, yes.
MR HUBBARD
Sort of. You told the police didn't you, I am going to
suggest it was on 18th August, when you made a statement
to them, you told them that you went to Ian's that evening
on the Saturday about 6.30 p.m.?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
Yes. And he was unpacking his grocery shopping in the
kitchen?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
You remember that now?
JONATHAN BUTLER
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
Quite a few carrier bags, weren't there?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
And then the telephone rang, didn't it?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR HUBBARD
You told the police this, didn't you, then Maxine rang
from Grimsby, the conversation was about the shopping?
JONATHAN BUTLER
If that's what I said, that's what happened.
MR HUBBARD
By all means you can look at it but will you for a moment
take it from me that's what you said?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I must have said----
MR HUBBARD
In your statement on 18th August. My Lord can we just
remind ourselves on the schedule of telephone calls, the
green folder, section 2, Saturday 3rd August, 18.22 a
call is shown from Carr's mobile to Huntley's mobile with
the Grimsby "Cole" site. At half past six or
thereabouts you got to Huntley's house, a telephone call
is very shortly after you arrive at the house isn't it?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I don't know.
MR HUBBARD
If you told the police Maxine rang from Grimsby it seems
to suggest, doesn't it, that you by then knew she was
in Grimsby, you knew she was in Grimsby?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I must have done.
MR HUBBARD
Must have done. Secondly you must have been able to recall
a telephone conversation or telephone call from her?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR HUBBARD
We now know you see there was one about that time, 18.22?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR HUBBARD
You look puzzled?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember.
MR HUBBARD
Just think, you originally, during the week before this
Saturday, were offered a lift to Grimsby yourself, weren't
you?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I can't remember that either.
MR HUBBARD
just think. Mr Huntley said to you, didn't he, that Maxine
was going to Grimsby for a week to see her parents. think,
Mr Butler, please?
JONATHAN BUTLER
I am thinking.
MR HUBBARD
that's what he told you, didn't he?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I really can't remember.
MR HUBBARD
forgive me, you told the police you had been offered a
lift?
JONATHAN BUTLER
it has been so long now I can't remember.
MR
HUBBARD
I expect you were told you could refresh your memory from
your statement before you came into court?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and I dare say, knowing this was an important case, you
did----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I think you have to be a bit careful here and I think
MR LATHAM
will tell you why.
MR HUBBARD
yes, I am being given the information now. did somebody
read to you what you said in your statement?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no.
MR HUBBARD
they didn't?
JONATHAN BUTLER
no.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
why can't we short-cut this and read the bit that you
want out, so we can all see it here. It is very difficult
for this witness for reasons that will be obvious to the
jury, that at some stage you read to him what he said
much nearer the time.
MR HUBBARD
I am looking at 1045.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
or 1033.
MR HUBBARD
this is what you - by this time we are into October, 3rd
October - told the police "Ian had told me before
the weekend that Maxine was going to her family in Grimsby
and, as mentioned in earlier statements, had invited me
to travel with them. I decided not to go to Grimsby, and
likewise Ian didn't go either as he told me his father
had taken her instead. She was supposed to be going for
a week to see her mother but she returned home early on
Tuesday". Does that ring a bell now?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't remember the statement.
MR HUBBARD
you can't?
JONATHAN BUTLER
not all of it anyway.
MR HUBBARD
I am going suggest this to you you shared an office with
Ruth Odi, Ian Huntley, and Mr Gee?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
yes.
MR HUBBARD
the four of you. it was common knowledge, wasn't it, certainly
by Tuesday evening, that Maxine Carr had been in Grimsby
over the weekend. you all knew that?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't remember conversations.
MR HUBBARD
I expect you remember seeing Maxine Carr giving interviews
to the effect that she was here, there in Soham that weekend?
JONATHAN BUTLER
can you repeat that, please.
MR HUBBARD
do you remember hearing on the news or reading in the
newspapers that over that weekend Maxine Carr was saying
she was in Soham, not in Grimsby?
JONATHAN
BUTLER
I can't remember that either.
MR HUBBARD
you can't remember that either?
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
any questions?
MR LATHAM
I have no re-examination.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
thank you very much indeed, thank you
(the witness withdrew).
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