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13/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Thursday, 13 November 2003
SKY News
MR LATHAM is the chief prosecutor and MR JUSTICE
MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07
MR LATHAM
My Lord, JOHN WATKINS
(JOHN WATKINS,
sworn) Examined by MR LATHAM.
MR
LATHAM
Mr Watkins can you tell us first of all your full name,
please?
JOHN WATKINS
Jonathan Steven Watkins.
MR LATHAM
Mr Watkins, in August of last year, did you have a girlfriend
called Mary Norman?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I put it that way, I don't know whether she is still your
girlfriend - I am only concerned obviously with August
last year?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I think she lived in the Soham area, didn't she?
JOHN WATKINS
Wicken.
MR LATHAM
How far is Wicken from Soham?
JOHN WATKINS
Three miles.
MR LATHAM
Thank you. Did she have an occasional job at the Soham
sports centre?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And which days of the week did she tend to work at the----
JOHN WATKINS
It varied, Sundays, Saturdays.
MR LATHAM
Sometimes at weekends?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
did you used to come down and spend some time with her
often at weekends?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I want to ask you as I'm sure you appreciate, about Sunday,
4th August of last year. Was Mary, your girlfriend, working
on that evening?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
At the sports centre?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
How did she get to the centre to start work at the bar?
JOHN WATKINS
I took her.
MR LATHAM
You took her down, what in a motor car?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What sort of time do you think it was that you took her
there?
JOHN WATKINS
Half past six, twenty to seven.
MR LATHAM
Did you just literally drop her off, or did you park your
car and go in yourself?
JOHN WATKINS
I parked and went in.
MR LATHAM
You went in and did she have to unlock the bar and set
it up?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
She was working that evening in the bar and did you leave
or stay?
JOHN WATKINS
I stayed.
MR LATHAM
What time did the bar close that evening?
JOHN
WATKINS
About half past ten.
MR LATHAM
And who was responsible for actually closing the bar itself
up?
JOHN WATKINS
Mary.
MR LATHAM
I have just been reminded I think you got married shortly
after this time so she is now your wife?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did something happen while Mary was locking the bar up?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What was that?
JOHN WATKINS
MARK ABBOTT one of my friends came up and said there were
two girls missing.
MR LATHAM
Take it in stages, MARK ABBOTT, he is a friend of yours,
is he?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Had he been in the bar or did he come to the bar?
JOHN WATKINS
I don't think he had that evening.
MR
LATHAM
Where were you when MARK ABBOTT spoke to you?
JOHN WATKINS
(inaudible) I went down to see who it was and.
MR LATHAM
of course there is a security door, isn't there?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
did he come back up to the bar or did you remain on the
ground floor level with him once you had opened the door?
JOHN WATKINS
I'm not sure, I think I stayed down, I'm not sure.
MR LATHAM
and what was MARK ABBOTT 's concern when he arrived at
the doorway?
JOHN WATKINS
that two girls were missing.
MR LATHAM
two girls missing did he give you any idea of the age
of these girls or the size of these girls?
JOHN
WATKINS
no, he just said, "the two little girls" I'm
not sure.
MR LATHAM
did he give you any further information about the girls
apart from the fact that they were little girls?
JOHN WATKINS
knew they were wearing Manchester United tops.
MR LATHAM
did you know their names at that stage?
JOHN
WATKINS
he did tell me the names, I think, yes.
MR
LATHAM
now, as you stood talking to Mark, first of all, were
you able to help him at that point at all about two little
girls wearing Manchester United tops ?
JOHN
WATKINS
no.
MR LATHAM
in fact from the time of your arrival with Mary to the
point you went to the front door had you ever left the
building?
JOHN WATKINS
No.
MR LATHAM
Where is the bar area in relation to the front door? is
it on the same floor?
JOHN WATKINS
no, up one floor.
MR LATHAM
up one floor, and can you see the reception area once
you are in the bar upstairs?
JOHN WATKINS
no.
MR LATHAM
Mary was closing the bar up when this first happened?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
When did you next see her, where were you?
JOHN
WATKINS
I think I was still downstairs towards Mark when she came
down.
MR LATHAM
she joined you?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
having locked up?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the conversation that you had been having with Mark,
inside or outside the premises when he first spoke to
you?
JOHN WATKINS
it was probably in the foyer.
MR LATHAM
the foyer? the foyer is divided into two parts by the
security door, isn't it?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
you had opened the door for him, did you go out to him
or did he come in to you?
JOHN WATKINS
probably just stood in the doorway.
MR
LATHAM
Mary joined you and you couldn't help at all at that stage?
JOHN WATKINS
no.
MR LATHAM
you knew nothing about the two little girls, you have
told us?
JOHN WATKINS
no.
MR LATHAM
and was Mary put in the picture as you stood in the doorway
or not when she joined you?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
could she offer any information at all?
JOHN
WATKINS
no.
MR LATHAM
so there the three of you are; then what did the three
of you do?
JOHN WATKINS
well, there was another person there as well, up in the
bar and she come down with Mary so me and Mark went in
Mark's car and then Mary and Wayne went in Mary's car.
MR LATHAM
Right. What were you doing in these two cars?
JOHN WATKINS
Just driving round seeing if we could see anybody.
MR LATHAM
Before you set off to start driving round did you see
anyone else?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I want to ask about that and I want to take it carefully
in stages. This other person you saw, was that whilst
you were still group of three or when you had become a
group of four?
JOHN WATKINS
A group of four, I think.
MR LATHAM
Where did you see this person?
JOHN
WATKINS
They were walking along the path that runs beside the
sports hall.
MR LATHAM
If you are standing inside the sports centre in the reception
area, you come out of the doors sort of sideways on, isn't
it, and immediately you come out there is a concrete path
running in front of you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You go right, you go into the sports centre car park,
don't you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
The Lodeside school is opposite you?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
The path runs off to your left?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where was this person when you first saw them?
JOHN WATKINS
Walking up the path from my right to the left.
MR LATHAM
So the car park on up towards the Primary school and tennis
courts?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did the man, the person have anything with him?
JOHN WATKINS
A dog.
MR LATHAM
I am grateful. Did you, on that night, did you know who
that person was?
JOHN WATKINS
No.
MR LATHAM
As far as you are aware, had you ever met that person
before?
JOHN WATKINS
No.
MR LATHAM
I think you later discovered him to be Ian Huntley, didn't
you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What I want to do now is, did you end up by - you, either
you or the people who were with you, in your presence,
end up saying anything to this man?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I want you to as best you can tell us your recollection
of what was said - who started from?
JOHN
WATKINS
I think I did, either me or Mark, I'm not 100 per cent.
MR LATHAM
What did you say?
JOHN WATKINS
I said have you seen two little girls and he said no,
I think he said he had been away and he was just walking
his dog.
MR LATHAM
Did you get any information from him at that stage as
to whether he was in any way associated with the immediate
area or whether he was a complete stranger, that happened
to be walking past?
JOHN WATKINS
Well, MARK ABBOTT said that he was the caretaker and then
he asked who the two girls were and Mark told him.
MR LATHAM
Let's take that in stages. Did you know he was the caretaker
from what Mark said to you before ever you spoke to him?
JOHN WATKINS
No.
MR LATHAM
it was during the conversation, this man was the caretaker?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
the information Mark gave to the caretaker was what about
the girls?
JOHN WATKINS
he told him their names and said they were wearing Manchester
United shirts.
MR LATHAM
so very much what you had just been told, the information
you had been given beside the doorway?
JOHN
WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
so he said he had been away until shortly before you saw
him?
JOHN WATKINS
yes, I think so, yes.
MR LATHAM
and he was doing what at the time - what did he say he
was doing?
JOHN WATKINS
walking the dog.
MR LATHAM
what about the two girls when you asked him the question?
JOHN WATKINS
he said he hadn't seen them.
MR LATHAM
How long did that conversation take?
JOHN
WATKINS
A couple of minutes, five minutes.
MR
LATHAM
was any much more said than you have just been through
with me?
JOHN WATKINS
not that I can remember, no.
MR LATHAM
so just a few sentences?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
you have already described, then, going to the two vehicles,
Mary's car?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
which I take it you had come in?
JOHN
WATKINS
it was actually my car but Mary was driving.
MR LATHAM
so your car that you arrived in, and you went off with
MARK ABBOTT ?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
and over what period of time that night were you trying
to help?
JOHN WATKINS
well, I think it was about half past four, five o'clock
when we stopped looking.
MR LATHAM
and during the course of the evening did you become aware
that there were police officers around and about who were
also involved in the search?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
were they based in any particular place or did you just
bump into them from time to time as people were going
around searching?
JOHN WATKINS
they were based by the entrance to the Primary School.
MR LATHAM
up near Sand Street in the driveway?
JOHN
WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
the big gates, the iron gates?
JOHN
WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
now, did there come a time when the police made a request
of either you or somebody you were with in relation to
the sports hall which led you to go back to the sports
hall?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
it may be difficult to put an exact time on it but roughly
this period, between half past ten when this first started
and your stopping searching well on into the morning,
what sort of time was it roughly?
JOHN
WATKINS
I think it might have been three o'clock, I can't be sure
though.
MR LATHAM
what was the request that was being made?
JOHN
WATKINS
Mark told him that he worked at the sports hall and told
them they had cameras, and the police asked could they
go and view the tape.
MR LATHAM
Were you there when that happened?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where did you conduct that exercise, where was the equipment
that you were looking at?
JOHN WATKINS
In the office of the sports centre.
MR
LATHAM
The one in the reception area, you go through the security
doors and then round the corner to get into the office
itself, don't you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Who was looking through the tape, who was actually operating
the machinery to look at the tape?
JOHN
WATKINS
Mark.
MR LATHAM
Were you there or not?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Were you trying to help?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
While you were doing that, did you see anyone else who
you had seen earlier on that evening?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Who was that?
JOHN WATKINS
Ian Huntley.
MR LATHAM
Yes. And where was he, what happened?
JOHN
WATKINS
Well, there was Mark and Mary and me and the police officers
who viewed the tape and the lights were on and Ian walked
into the reception.
MR LATHAM
You were on the office side of the window there is that
the reception area , if I understand what you are saying?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where was he, Ian Huntley?
JOHN WATKINS
He was the other side of the window.
MR
LATHAM
Did he have his dog with him at that stage or not?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you hear him say anything, what was he doing?
JOHN WATKINS
I can't really remember, I think he asked us did we have
the tape.
MR LATHAM
Did you give, either you or anybody you were with, give
any indication of whether you did or not?
JOHN
WATKINS
I'm not sure, I was watching the tape.
MR
LATHAM
By the time you packed up the search in the early hours
of the morning, can you describe what sort of morning
it was?
JOHN WATKINS
Very foggy.
MR LATHAM
Was it daylight by the time you stopped?
JOHN
WATKINS
It was about half past four, I think I can't remember.
I think it was still dark but I'm not---.
MR
LATHAM
What had the weather been like that night as you were
driving around that night?
JOHN WATKINS
Really foggy.
MR LATHAM
I mean, as you were driving round did you need wipers
on or not because of the fog?
JOHN WATKINS
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
I think you went home for a very short time, didn't you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
With Mary?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you make a decision about what you would do next when
you had only been home a pretty short time?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What was that?
JOHN WATKINS
We decided to go out about six o'clock when it was lighter
to see if we could help.
MR LATHAM
To see if you could help again? Now on that occasion,
how did you get to the college from Wicken which s what,
three miles you told us?
JOHN WATKINS
In Mary's car.
MR LATHAM
Where did you drive in the car when you got to the college?
JOHN WATKINS
We drove into the sports hall car park, there was nobody
there so we turned round and drove back out and pulled
up outside at the front of the college.
MR
LATHAM
The front of the college. Just get your bearing on the
map we see there. The sports centre is the arrowed large
square there and the car park immediately above it on
he plan there?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And of course the access to it down College Road and along
by the side of the stream?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You said you drove into the car park, nothing there so
you drove back out again?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And the main part of the college, are you talking about
the Lodeside site, the main building we see on the plan
there?
JOHN WATKINS
No, the south side.
MR LATHAM
There is a turning circle in front of the colleges, is
that what you're talking about or not?
JOHN
WATKINS
We were on the right hand side as you drive out.
MR LATHAM
So near the Lode stream you got to the car park of the
sport centre and you drove back out of it?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
There is only one way you can drive the car out of there?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes but you can go round in a circle can't you.
MR LATHAM
You came out of the mouth of the car park?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where there is a circle with grass and trees in the centre,
isn't there?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where did you park in relation to that?
JOHN
WATKINS
We drove on the right hand side so (inaudible) to our
left.
MR LATHAM
You get back up to College Road or stop?
JOHN
WATKINS
We stop because there are parking bays on that road there,
aren't there?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Is that where you stopped?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
As you pulled up in front of the college did you see somebody
immediately in front of the car?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Who was that?
JOHN WATKINS
Ian Huntley.
MR LATHAM
Was there a vehicle, did you know where he lived at that
stage?
JOHN WATKINS
No, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
Where did you see him?
JOHN WATKINS
He came out of the house.
MR LATHAM
Is that the one looking out onto that turning area, number
5?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And was there a car there at that time?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
What sort of car?
JOHN WATKINS
A red Fiesta.
MR LATHAM
Where was it?
JOHN WATKINS
Facing the house.
MR LATHAM
And parked in front of the house?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And did he come over to your car?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did he ask something?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
what was that?
JOHN WATKINS
for a cigarette.
MR LATHAM
I don't know if you are, but Mary certainly was a smoker
back last year?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
had she been smoking as you arrived?
JOHN
WATKINS
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did he say to you as you were parked there?
JOHN WATKINS
he asked could he have a cigarette, (inaudible) he had
run out.
MR LATHAM
then what did he say I he was going to do?
JOHN
WATKINS
go to bed.
MR LATHAM
did you stay there or did you decide to drive off?
JOHN WATKINS
we decided to drive off.
MR LATHAM
did you see anything that has anything to do with Ian
Huntley after you left?
JOHN WATKINS
yes
MR LATHAM
Where were you?
JOHN WATKINS
We drove down (inaudible) Street to the Cherry Tree pub
and we were coming back into Soham.
MR
LATHAM
as you were, what did you see?
JOHN
WATKINS
I met Ian Huntley driving out.
MR LATHAM
in?
JOHN WATKINS
in his Fiesta.
Cross-examined by MR COWARD
MR
COWARD
Mr Watkins, on the Sunday night we are concerned with,
you explained how you had been at the sports centre ith
Mary. Were you smoking on the bar?
JOHN
WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
do you smoke yourself?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
are you an occasional smoker or, if you are honest, do
you smoke a fair few a day?
JOHN WATKINS
I was occasional then.
MR COWARD
occasional then?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
and now?
JOHN WATKINS
every day.
MR COWARD
the closing time for the club was half past ten?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
the bar. A bit of drinking-up time so it has gone half
past ten when you decide to leave, and Mary is closing
the bar up?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
you see MARK ABBOTT when you are down at ground floor
level?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
He tells you something and there is just the two of you
there together then?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
tell us again, would you, what Mark told you then with
the two of you there?
JOHN WATKINS
sorry?
MR COWARD
what did Mark tell you with just the two of you there?
JOHN WATKINS
he asked had we seen two little girls who were missing.
MR COWARD
asked if you had seen?
JOHN WATKINS
two little girls.
MR COWARD
two little girls? And had you?
JOHN
WATKINS
no.
MR COWARD
what else did Mark say to you before anybody else joined
you, if anything?
JOHN WATKINS
I can't remember.
MR COWARD
you can't remember? thank you. Mary finished sorting the
bar out?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
Mary comes and joins you at ground level?
JOHN
WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
Mark, you and Mary, where were you planning to go together?
JOHN WATKINS
home.
MR COWARD
you were planning to go home? as you go through doors
out of the sports centre into the open air, you see a
man?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
You now know that is Ian Huntley?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
And he had his dog with him?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
You asked Ian Huntley a question, didn't you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
You asked him if he had seen two small girls on his travels?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
And he said he hadn't and said he was taking his dog for
a walk. Did he then continue walking towards the Primary
school?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Where was MARK ABBOTT at the time you had your conversation
with Ian Huntley?
JOHN WATKINS
Mark was with me.
MR COWARD
Was with you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Are you sure?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Are you sure that Mark didn't join you a little later
and tell you that the man you had just been speaking to
was the college caretaker?
JOHN WATKINS
No, Ian asked who the girls were and Mark told him.
MR COWARD
So you now remembered something that you had not remembered
a few moments ago that Ian asked who the girls were and
Mark told him?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Why did you forget that, Mr Watkins , when I asked you
for the first time?
JOHN WATKINS
I don't know.
MR COWARD
You don't know? If I was to suggest to you that MARK ABBOTT
came up after Mr Huntley had walked on and MARK ABBOTT
told you that the man you had just been speaking to was
the school caretaker, what would say to that?
JOHN WATKINS
Mark was there with me.
MR COWARD
You think that's wrong, Mark walking up, you say Mark
was there in the conversation?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Right. Would you have a look, please, Mr Watkins (my Lord,
page 1052) at a statement, apparently made by you on 16th
August? 16th August starting about half-way down the page
"At about 10.35 p.m., whilst Mary was closing the
bar area, my friend MARK ABBOTT came
to the door and rang the bell as the door to the sports
centre bar was by this time locked. Answered the door
to Mark and spoke with him. He asked me whether I had
seen two girls who had gone missing". when you say,
Mr Watkins, you answered the door, is this the door at
upper level or ground level?
JOHN WATKINS
Ground level.
MR COWARD
You had gone down to ground level. "I answered the
door to Mark, I spoke with him. He asked me whether I
had seen two little girls who had gone missing. Mark told
me the girls names and said they had not been seen for
hours. I told him I had not seen them at all. Mary then
joined us by the door and we all left together. I went
off with Mark out of the sports centre. While outside
I saw a man with an Alsatian looking dog walking towards
the Primary school. I asked the man if he had seen two
small girls on his travels and he said he had not seen
anybody and he was just taking his dog for a walk. He
continued to walk towards the Primary school. Mark then
joined me and told me the man I had just spoken to was
the college caretaker. I left the college with Mark in
his car and we went around the local area in search of
the two missing girls as Mark knew the family very well
and wanted to help out". Just one preliminary question
Mr Watkins in relation to that do you know somebody called
WAYNE SHORT?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Was WAYNE SHORT with you that night?
JOHN
WATKINS
He was, yes.
MR COWARD
According to you was WAYNE SHORT part of the conversation
with Mr Huntley?
JOHN WATKINS
I can't remember.
MR COWARD
Well, had WAYNE SHORT been in the bar?
JOHN
WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
And when you left to go searching was WAYNE SHORT one
of the searchers?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Was WAYNE SHORT in your car?
JOHN WATKINS
He was with Mary.
MR COWARD
He was with Mary? Did WAYNE SHORT hear any of this conversation
with Mr Huntley?
JOHN WATKINS
I can't remember.
MR COWARD
It is worse than that, Mr Watkins, isn't it, because on
the 16th August you don't seem to be able to remember
he is even there?
JOHN WATKINS
What?- but I said in my later statement that he was.
MR COWARD
I will come to the later statement in a moment. I will
be corrected if I am wrong, but in the first - let me
follow the story through. You get into two cars. You are
with Mark and Wayne is with Mary and you go searching;
as a pair?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
You are stuck together?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
And it is from 10.35 through to what time did you eventually-
the two cars stop searching four -ish, five -ish, six
-ish?
JOHN WATKINS
No, earlier, Wayne went home because he had to go to work
and Mary got in with me and Mark.
MR
COWARD
What time did Wayne leave you?
JOHN
WATKINS
Maybe about 12 o'clock.
MR COWARD
So it has been roughly an hour and a half in the car with
Mary?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
searching. And you knew he was in the car with Mary?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
can you find any reference at all, Mr Watkins, in this
first statement, to Wayne at all? can I suggest it is
not there? not mentioned. if I am right, how can that
be? what is happening?
JOHN WATKINS
because I have just forgot to mention him, but I have
said that in my later statement.
MR
COWARD
how can you forget that, Mr Watkins?
JOHN
WATKINS
because there was a lot going on that evening.
MR COWARD
but this man has been in a car with your fiance for at
least an hour and a half. does it puzzle you now that
there is no reference to Wayne in this statement?
JOHN WATKINS
I just forgot to mention him.
MR COWARD
because by the time you were making a statement, you realised
what you were saying was important, didn't you?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
very important. turn on to the second page right at the
very bottom "the reason I have given a statement
is because I found out the caretaker at the college had
been arrested and I felt that it was important that I
notified the police of what I had seen and heard the night
the two girls went missing". does anything strike
you about this statement now we have looked at it again,
the statement of 16th August, anything odd about it? anything
missing?
JOHN WATKINS
I forget to mention Wayne, but----
MR
COWARD
forget to mention one of the four of you altogether, right.
second, let me help, Manchester United tops?
JOHN WATKINS
yes.
MR COWARD
yes. That's not in, is it?
JOHN WATKINS
no.
MR COWARD
the names of the girls, it is not in, is it?
JOHN WATKINS
no.
MR COWARD
right, that's the 16th August. could you now be handed
a statement of 29th August, please. this is statement.
You say "further to the statement I made on 16th
August I would like to clarify the following", then
you go through your movements again on the night of the
Sunday. "Mary opened the bar which is on the first
floor, I stayed in the bar for the whole of the evening
only a few customers on the night, but the only one I
can remember by name was WAYNE SHORT." So WAYNE SHORT
has come into the picture on 29th August. "throughout
the evening I drank a maximum of three pints of Carlsberg,
this had very little effect on me. the bar closed at approximately
10.30, the same day. Around this time my friend MARK ABBOTT
rang the bell to the front door of the reception and I
let him into the premises. On his arrival, Mark informed
me that two young girls were missing. He appeared to be
upset and panicking. Myself and Mark left via the main
doors and at hat point I saw a male with an Alsatian dog."
You describe the direction in which he is going. "I
had a short conversation with the male which is included
in my first statement. At this point I was standing within
two feet of male one, there was no obstruction between
male one and myself, the lighting is street type lighting
and good enough to see a person's features and I had him
in my sight for about two minutes. I remember MARK ABBOTT
speaking to male one. Male one asked what are the girls
names and MARK ABBOTT informed him of their names".
Where has this come from Mr Watkins?
JOHN
WATKINS
Because I realised I forgot to put it in the my statement.
MR COWARD
In the earlier statement we have looked at what you are
doing- talking to the man with the dog, aren't you?
JOHN WATKINS
I think I asked him and I didn't know the girls names
so I asked Mark.
MR COWARD
But now, on 29th August, MARK ABBOTT is saying the names
of the girls when the man asked him what names they had.
Can you explain this, what has happened, what is going
on, why the difference? Can I have a shot at it Mr Watkins.
I will put it bluntly. You told the police in that first
statement everything you knew and it was right what you
told the police in the first statement, about the conversation
with the man with the dog. Following the arrest of Mr
Huntley, he became public enemy number one and you felt
under pressure to try to help a bit more. Is that fair?
JOHN WATKINS
No.
MR COWARD
So bits of conversation that didn't happen start coming
into your account of the matter at the end of August.
Is that fair?
JOHN WATKINS
I realised that I forgot all the full details and it is
a lot to remember at once.
MR COWARD
You understand the difference between saying to a man
at half past ten at night, "have you seen a couple
of girls on your travels" and saying to a man "have
you seen a couple of girls on your travels? They are in
Manchester United tops, one is called Holly, one is called
Jessica." You can see a difference, can't you?
JOHN WATKINS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Thank you
(cross-examined by MR LATHAM)
MR LATHAM
Which was it, Mr Watkins "Did you see...?",
"Have you seen a couple of little girls?", or
did you go on to give further details?
JOHN
WATKINS
I asked "Have you seen two little girls?" and
it was at that time p.m. Mark told him what they were
wearing.
MR LATHAM
What about names?
JOHN WATKINS
Mark told him.
MR LATHAM
And how had the question of names arisen at all?
JOHN WATKINS
Because Ian Huntley asked who they were.
MR
LATHAM
yes. I have no other re-examination.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
Thank you very much.
(the witness withdrew)
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