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and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
14/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 14 November 2003
SKY News
MR LATHAM is the chief prosecutor and MR JUSTICE
MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07 08
MR LATHAM
STEPHEN JARVIS, please.
(STEPHEN JARVIS,
sworn Examined by MR LATHAM)
MR
LATHAM
Mr Jarvis, would you tell us your full name, please?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Steven James Jarvis.
MR LATHAM
Mr Jarvis, you are a retained firefighter at Soham fire
station, aren't you?
STEPHEN JARVIS
correct yes.
MR LATHAM
I think during the course of the late evening on Sunday,
4th August of last year, you became aware that two girls
were missing in Soham?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
and there came a time when you met up with a colleague
of yours,
DAVID HOBBS
, also a retained fireman somewhere up near Budgens Store,
did you?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think the two of you decided you would set about helping
in the search, and that it would be a good idea to go
and get some dragon lamps from the fire station?
STEPHEN JARVIS
correct.
MR LATHAM
I don't think there is any dispute about that. There came
a time after you had done that when you ended up back
in the area of the Lodeside site in the college out at
the front, parking the car near the turning circle in
front of the building?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes. Yes.
MR LATHAM
as you go out of the car did you see someone standing
over towards the caretakers's house?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
did.
MR LATHAM
did you in fact know, either by sight or indeed by name,
the caretaker on that night?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
no.
MR LATHAM
did you become involved in a conversation with that man?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
did he have something with him when you first saw him?
STEPHEN JARVIS
he had a cup in his hand.
MR LATHAM
a cup in his hand? did he come over to you or did you,
as it were, go past him?
STEPHEN JARVIS
we walked past him.
MR LATHAM
and I think some things were said as best you can, tell
us of anything that was said. how did it start?
STEPHEN JARVIS
he wanted to know what was happening.
MR
LATHAM
what was happening. what did you say?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
said two young girls have gone missing.
MR
LATHAM
did you at that stage know anything more about those two
young girls? Firstly, did you have any idea of their age?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did you understand on that night - I know it is difficult
- try and put yourself back in the state of mind you were
in at that point?
STEPHEN JARVIS
they were ten, the same age as my son.
MR
LATHAM
did you know their names?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
first names or full names?
STEPHEN JARVIS
I knew Holly Wells.
MR LATHAM
Holly Wells?
STEPHEN JARVIS
I knew the name Jessica, I had heard it spoken earlier.
MR LATHAM
you knew them as Holly Wells and Jessica?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
yes, two ten year-olds?
MR LATHAM
Yes. Did you know anything at all about their appearance
when you started your search?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
when I had the first conversation I asked what was going
on and they said the red tops.
MR LATHAM
red tops?
STEPHEN JARVIS
who had given you that information?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
that was Steven Powell.
MR LATHAM
another member of the public?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
yes, a member of the public.
MR LATHAM
I think you became involved in searching with him as well?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes. Yes.
MR LATHAM
so he had that information?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
when you were asked, "What is going on?" you
replied that you were doing what?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
searching.
MR LATHAM
searching for?
STEPHEN JARVIS
two young girls.
MR LATHAM
what did he say then?
STEPHEN JARVIS
he said did they have red tops on, one had blonde hair?
I said yes.
MR LATHAM
The one with blonde hair was Holly Wells?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
that's what was said.
MR LATHAM
yes, then what?
STEPHEN JARVIS
he said he had seen them earlier.
MR
LATHAM
"seen them earlier". did
you ask for more detail?
STEPHEN JARVIS
at what time he said after 6. I couldn't give you a definite----
MR LATHAM
is that what he said?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
is that what he said or you say?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
he said after 6.
MR LATHAM
to make absolutely certain about this where were you when
this exchange happened?
STEPHEN JARVIS
standing in front of the premises where he was standing.
MR LATHAM
very shortly after you got out of the motor car having
come from the fire station?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
at that point you had been to the fire station with
DAVID HOBBS
, hadn't you?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
and indeed, gone, I think in his car, haven't you, back
to the college site?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR LATHAM
you mention Mr Powell as somebody from whom you got the
information earlier on in the evening?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Were you - just the two of you at this stage - having
the conversation with the man, or had you been joined
by Powell and indeed someone else?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
me and David was the only ones that got out of the car.
MR LATHAM
having had that short conversation, what did you, either
the two of you, or if there were any more of you, then
do?
STEPHEN JARVIS
We carried on the search.
MR LATHAM
what happened to the man who had given you this information,
where was he?
STEPHEN JARVIS
he was still standing at the front of the premises.
MR LATHAM
right. Where did you go on the search?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
We walked round the school, up towards the sports centre
and round, there is another school.
MR
LATHAM
Yes up at the top, the primary school?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
As you went up there, did you see the man again?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Later, after we had searched we met up, yes.
MR LATHAM
When you met up with him where was it you met up with
him?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Within the Primary School area.
MR LATHAM
Did he have anything with him at that stage?
STEPHEN JARVIS
He had a large dog.
MR LATHAM
Was the dog on a lead?
STEPHEN JARVIS
No.
MR LATHAM
Did you have any further conversation with him when you
met up with him near the swimming pool?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Not near the swimming pool, that was towards the- there
is a road we went into, Fordham Road, and that's really
where we had another conversation.
MR
LATHAM
Can you tell us what you remember being said?
STEPHEN JARVIS
That's where everybody was congregating.
MR
LATHAM
So near the rendezvous point?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
He said "They are out in force."
MR
LATHAM
They are out in force?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes, and also "They are-, two small girls have gone
missing." It annoyed me actually, I can't remember
if he said I had better let them know what I know or what
I had seen.
MR LATHAM
Did you go into the group standing around at the rendezvous
point?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes I did.
MR LATHAM
What sort of time is this, it may be difficult to fix
it?
STEPHEN JARVIS
I would say close to three o'clock.
MR
LATHAM
How long had you been searching on the general area of
the the school site by then?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
I would say half hour, area, time, couldn't really be
precise.
MR LATHAM
Just trying to as best I can to fix the conversation you
had back down at the house at the first point. When you
got there did you see a number of other people you recognised?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Do you remember seeing SUSAN HURRELL ?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
I did.
MR LATHAM
You know her?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Indeed, at the time did you know Mr Chapman the father
of Jessica or not?
STEPHEN JARVIS
No, no I didn't.
MR LATHAM
Did someone point an individual out?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
They did.
MR LATHAM
As Mr Chapman?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes, they did.
MR LATHAM
And did you in fact speak to any police officer at that
time or around that time?
STEPHEN JARVIS
A bit later on I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
A man or woman?
STEPHEN JARVIS
It was a lady.
MR LATHAM
Did she appear to have any particular function on that
evening?
STEPHEN JARVIS
She seemed in charge of the point.
MR
LATHAM
And did you indicate something to her?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
I went over and asked if the caretaker had given her the
information.
MR LATHAM
That's the information that he had given you earlier on?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR LATHAM
We have already had the night described, it was a pretty
foggy night. By that stage, when you were talking to the
officer in charge, do you recollect whether the man you
had spoken to earlier who you had also seen with the dog,
was still around in evidence or?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
He was, yes.
MR LATHAM
Thank you. I wonder if that is an appropriate time.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Sorry, you have to come back at two. Do not tell anybody
about your evidence. Remember the warning I gave you.
Hearing adjourned - will resume after lunch
MR JUSTICE MOSES STEPHEN JARVIS, continued.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Yes.
MR COWARD
Mr Jarvis you told the Members of the Jury about realising
something had happened in The Village, going to get some
lamps to assist in the search and finally entering into
the grounds of Soham college. Can you put a time on that,
when you actually got on to the campus?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
I would say it would be after two we went up to the station
and got the lights and came back.
MR
COWARD
He was asking you what you were there for?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
And you told him that you were part of a search party?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
At that time he had got a mug or cup in his hand?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Had you decided by that stage any particular area you
thought you might be able to help in, any part.
STEPHEN JARVIS
We were just going to search around the school.
MR COWARD
But, as it turned out, you spent quite a bit of your time
up near St Andrew's school, didn't you?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Around that area, round the swimming pool and round there.
MR COWARD
After you had originally met that man, I think you were
joined, weren't you, by somebody called Steve Powell?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
When Steve Powell joined you, the caretaker with his dog
was with Steve Powell?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
And from then on you stayed as a group until the search
came to an end?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Not as a group, not right to the end. He walked with us
to the front where the control group was and then I met
some other people who I knew.
MR COWARD
And it was whilst you were in the vicinity of St Andrew's,
wasn't it, that you- the question cropped up about the
girls and the description of what they were wearing?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Not with me. I spoke to him about the girls at the beginning
when we first got out of the car and he spoke to me rather-,
asking what we were doing and I explained to him what
we was doing, who we were looking for.
MR
COWARD
I suggest your memory is at fault in that regard, it was
later on while the group was searching, the question cropped
up about the girls?
STEPHEN JARVIS
The only time I spoke to him was when I said, he said
"Oh they are here in force", and I said to him
"I should think they are, two small girls had gone
missing."
MR COWARD
You told the Members of the Jury at some stage he said
"I had better tell the police what I have seen".
A. Yes.
MR COWARD
Where do you say he was when he said that?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
When he was walking along the out road towards Fordham
Road with the school behind us heading towards where the
control point was.
MR COWARD
this was after the search had stopped?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
You were going toward the control?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
(inaudible).
MR COWARD
there is a difference between us as to where the conversation
took place. Let us look at the actual conversation. what
I suggest happened is that he began the conversation.
Just to remind ourselves, by the time you arrived at the
college you knew it was two girls, you knew their age?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR COWARD
you knew they were wearing red Manchester United tops?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR COWARD
and you knew one of them?
STEPHEN JARVIS
I knew one of them well.
MR COWARD
Yes. You knew she was a blonde?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
yes.
MR COWARD
the conversation, I suggest, went like this as the group
were together, he, the caretaker said, "what were
they wearing?" and one of you, I can't suggest which
it was, said, "red Manchester United tops"?
STEPHEN JARVIS
it wasn't me, not to my knowledge anyway.
MR
COWARD
he said, "Did one of them have blonde hair?"?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR COWARD
He did ask, did he?
STEPHEN JARVIS
he asked me that.
MR COWARD
you knew that Holly did?
STEPHEN JARVIS
yes.
MR COWARD
so you said "Yes "?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
That was the stage, wasn't it at which he said "I
saw the girls at my house."?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
He said "I've seen them" and he pointed, as
in towards the bridge way, that way.
MR
COWARD
Which would be where his house was as well? Transcript
delayed - will resume shortly
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Could I suggest that the time he actually gave, whether
it is accurate or not doesn't matter, the time he ctually
mentioned to you was about 5.45, six o'clock?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
That was the stage, wasn't it, at which he said "I
saw the girls at my house."?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
He said "I've seen them", and he pointed as
in towards the bridge way, that way.
MR
COWARD
Which would be where his house was as well?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Yes.
MR COWARD
Could I suggest that the time he actually gave, whether
it is accurate or not doesn't matter, the time he actually
mentioned to you was about 5.45, 6 o'clock?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Around, well he said after six.
MR COWARD
Your recollection is it was after six?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
After six.
MR COWARD
Fair enough. Did he at any time after that ever say to
you or friends, mates that were with you searching, "Don't
tell anybody what I have just told you, keep it secret"?
STEPHEN JARVIS
He never said that to me.
MR COWARD
When you got down to the control point there was a woman
officer who was obviously in charge, there was also somebody
called Sue Hurrell that you knew, wasn't there?
STEPHEN JARVIS
Correct.
MR COWARD
Did you see at any time the caretaker, the man with the
dog, talking to Sue Hurrell?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
I never saw her, no.
MR COWARD
You never saw her? Anyway you went over to the woman police
officer in charge and said to her, in effect, the college
caretaker says he saw the girls?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
Yes, I did.
MR COWARD
It is a long time ago now, Mr Jarvis, can you remember
whether you told the woman officer in charge what time
had been said that he had seen them?
STEPHEN
JARVIS
No, I can't remember.
MR COWARD
Fair enough. Thank you very much.
MR
LATHAM
No re-examination. Thank you very much.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
Thank you very much.
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