| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
14/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 14 November 2003
SKY News
MR LATHAM is the chief prosecutor and MR JUSTICE
MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07 08
MR LATHAM
SUSAN HURRELL, please
(SUSAN HURRELL
sworn).
MR LATHAM
Mrs Hurrell would you start telling us your name, please?
SUSAN HURRELL
Susan Mary Hurrell.
MR LATHAM
Mrs Hurrell, I think you work at St Andrew's Primary School
is that right?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
You are a teacher there?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, in the reception class.
MR LATHAM
I think you started in January of 2002, at that school
didn't you?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
But just to get the position clear you have lived in Soham
for 13 years now, I think?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, I lived in (inaudible) for 5 years. I have been in
Soham most of my life.
MR LATHAM
Obviously you know a number of the local people
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes I do.
MR LATHAM
Particularly through your work as a teacher, no doubt?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, and through the various organisations I'm involved
in.
MR LATHAM
And can I just deal with one family in particular? Did
you know the Chapmans before the events of August of last
year?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I have known them since they moved to Brooke Street.
MR LATHAM
so - many years?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, several years - I think it was 1991, I think.
MR LATHAM
as a teacher at St Andrew's, did you come to know Maxine
Carr, who worked there on a voluntary basis as a temporary
classroom assistant?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
was that, as it were, recognising a face or were there
occasions when you talked to her during 2002 while she
was working at the school?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did have a few conversations with her, yes.
MR LATHAM
can I take you on to very near the end of the summer term
last year. Did you become aware that Maxine Carr had applied
for a permanent position at the school?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, I had.
MR LATHAM
to change her status from that of a temporary classroom
assistant?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you say something to her on Tuesday, 23rd July just
before the interviews or before that?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, I came out of the nursery; I was teaching the nursery
at the time.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I don't think Mr .....
MR COWARD
I think you----
MR LATHAM
I think you wished her good luck?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, she was sitting in the reception area.
MR HUBBARD
(inaudible)
MR JUSTICE MOSES
over MR HUBBARD's voice I think you said you wished her
good luck?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
indeed, did you discover the next day that she had not
got the job?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
it was the Wednesday before the end of term, wasn't it?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, it was.
MR LATHAM
I think one of the other teaching assistants did a collection
to get her some chocolates, flowers and wine and so on?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, she did.
MR LATHAM
I think you had a short word with her at about lunch time,
said you were sorry she had not got the job and in fact
she worked on through that Wednesday and Thursday before
the end of term?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, that's right she did, yes.
MR LATHAM
despite knowing she had not got the job?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, she did.
MR LATHAM
and I think you said something to the effect if it had
been me I wouldn't have come in for the last two days?
SUSAN HURRELL
I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
do you remember what she said in reply to that?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes. She said, "Yes", she said, "I was
gutted", she said, but she said Ian said, "You
go in", he said, "You show them".
MR LATHAM
right. can I move on to the events of Sunday, 4th August?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think in the late evening you came to hear that there
was at least one child missing, did you not?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
can you help us with the time as best you can when you
first learned there was a problem?
SUSAN
HURRELL
I believe it was about 10.45 in the evening; we were watching
the closing ceremony of the Commonwealth Games when Mr
Chapman's sister, Mandy Drummond, came round to ask me
whether I had seen Jessica or my daughter who is 9, if
she had seen her that evening.
MR LATHAM
your daughter by then was asleep?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
she couldn't help, and when she was woken up she had not
seen Jessica, had she?
SUSAN HURRELL
No.
MR LATHAM
I think you rushed round to Sharon Chapman's home, didn't
you?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
there were police officers present?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
you immediately began knocking on neighbours' doors?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
trying to search for her. You have I think an 18 year-old
daughter called Michelle, haven't you?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, she is now 19, she was 18 at the time, yes.
MR LATHAM
did you agree that you had to do something and the two
of you went in a motor car to begin searching?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, my daughter said, it was after the police helicopter
search had been abandoned - because of the fog it had
to be abandoned. My daughter said, "Look, mum, grandad's
car is out there in the driveway, let's go and search."
We also took my daughter, who was then 17, and my mother;
the four of us went out searching.
MR
LATHAM
I think you were involved in driving around in the area
for quite some time?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
as you were driving around were there occasions you were
either going up or down Sand Street?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you become aware there was a rendezvous point which
seemed to have been established in the mouth of the school's
driveway down to Sand Street?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think there were several police vehicles there, weren't
there?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I think there was Sergeant Nelson's van and possibly
two other vans at one time, and there were other vans
going around Soham with dogs.
MR LATHAM
Mrs Hurrell, having spent a considerable time driving
around, did there come a point when you came back to that
rendezvous point - I don't know whether you were still
with the car or you walked there - but came a time when
you were back at the rendezvous point on foot?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, we parked the car in Sand Street, and the operation
was that we, the local----
MR LATHAM
If you try and answer the question. I appreciate you want
to give us much detail as you can, but if you just listen
carefully to the question. Did you walk over to the rendezvous
area?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, we parked the car and joined everybody else, yes.
MR LATHAM
By that time how many people were there congregating around
that point?
SUSAN HURRELL
Possibly about, it could have been about 30, I would imagine.
MR LATHAM
I appreciate sometimes timing is difficult, but can you
do your best to recollect where we have got to now in
the early hours of the Monday morning?
SUSAN
HURRELL
It must have been between two and 2.30. In the immediate
areas we thought of--
MR LATHAM
You heard when there was a problem it was Jessica, Jessica
Chapman?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
When did you first hear it was a double problem and in
fact two girls were missing?
SUSAN HURRELL
When I was in Sharon's driveway, when the helicopter was
searching?
SUSAN HURRELL
So very shortly.
MR LATHAM
Yes.
MR LATHAM
As a matter of interest, did you know Holly Wells as a----?
SUSAN HURRELL
I had seen her at school but I didn't ever speak to her.
MR LATHAM
If you had seen her in the street would you have been
able to say that's Holly Wells or simply that's a girl
who goes to my school?
SUSAN HURRELL
Actually in June I saw - -
MR LATHAM
A simple answer, not complicated?
SUSAN
HURRELL
I saw her once for the first time, my daughter identified
her she was walking along the road so----
MR
LATHAM
The answer is on the 4th August?
SUSAN
HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
If you had seen her in the street could you have said
that is Holly Wells?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, yes.
MR LATHAM
Right. And as you were searching round the streets on
that night did you have any information about the clothing
that the girls had been wearing when they were last seen?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, the football shirts.
MR LATHAM
You knew that as you were driving around?
SUSAN
HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I take you back to the rendezvous point?
SUSAN
HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
People discussing what to do next. Did you see someone
who was sitting down rather than standing up?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Who was that?
SUSAN HURRELL
It was Ian Huntley, the caretaker.
MR
LATHAM
Again, I need to ask you this were you on that night able
to put a name to him or was he simply a face you knew?
SUSAN HURRELL
No, I could easily put a name to him.
MR
LATHAM
I don't want to go into the details but I think you had
had one or two dealings with him by virtue of your involvement
on the school sites, is that right?
SUSAN
HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you know he was the partner of Maxine Carr, for example
?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
So you saw him. Where was he when you first saw him?
SUSAN HURRELL
At the rendezvous point.
MR LATHAM
Where in the site in relation to to everyone else?
SUSAN HURRELL
To my left on the grass on the left-hand side of the driveway.
MR LATHAM
And I suggested sitting, is that right, was he sitting
or standing?
SUSAN HURRELL
Actually I tried to remember and I can't remember whether
it was sitting or standing but know when I spoke to him
I was standing. I can't remember now whether it was sitting
or standing.
MR LATHAM
Did you go up to him?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Right. Again I want to take this in short stages, as best
you can recollect. Who opened the conversation that took
place?
SUSAN HURRELL
I did.
MR LATHAM
What do you think you said to start with, what was the
first thing you said?
SUSAN HURRELL
I said "Hi Ian. I am Sue Hurrell", he remembered
me. We had met last week when we had a break-in at the
Lode Centre.
MR LATHAM
You had a break-in?
SUSAN HURRELL
We had a burglary the week before. And I said "I
work with Maxine".
MR LATHAM
What was his response to that?
SUSAN
HURRELL
He said "Yes."
MR LATHAM
You said?
SUSAN HURRELL
I said we had been talking about the Sports Centre. I
said "You live near the Sports Centre - two girls
have gone missing. Have you seen, did you see anything,
have you seen anything of them?"
MR
LATHAM
Yes. His response?
SUSAN HURRELL
He said "Yes, I think I might have seen two girls,
one with blonde hair and one with brown hair."
MR LATHAM
Pausing there. One with blonde hair, one with brown hair?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Carry on?
SUSAN HURRELL
Then I said "Did they speak to you?" and he
said "Yes they did", and I said "What did
they say?" He said "One of them asked me 'How
is Miss Carr?'", and I said "It must have been
Jessica and Holly because I know that she is the general
assistant in their classroom at school".
MR LATHAM
Did he indicate what he had said, if anything, when one
of them had asked "How is Miss Carr?"
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, he did because I questioned him and said "What
did you say to them?" and he said "She is not
very good or happy at the moment because she didn't get
the job."
MR LATHAM
Right. So you, in your own mind, had worked out, these
are the two girls?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, yes I had and I said it must be Jessica and Holly.
MR LATHAM
Did you ask him a further question, he having described
what he had, he had seen them?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes I did. I asked him, "What time did you see them?"
and he said, "Ten to six." I said, "Are
you sure about that?" and he said, "Yes".
I said, "It wasn't before and it wasn't after?"
and he said, "No, definitely ten to six." he
said his dog was on heat and she had been running across
the fields all afternoon and she had got dirty because
it had rained quite a lot in the afternoon and he said,
"I was outside my house sorting out the dog when
they came past."
MR LATHAM
he was describing to you a sighting, and he had given
you the time?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you then ask him - what next?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, I then said to him "where did they go next?"
and he pointed and said, "Over the Bridge",
which would be College Road leading towards the library.
MR LATHAM
right. So here was a piece of information being given
to you. Had you in fact met anybody else on the evening
in your earlier travels who was reporting having seen
the girls after they had gone out on to the street?
SUSAN HURRELL
no, as far as I was aware this was the first sighting
of the girls that evening.
MR LATHAM
and what was your reaction to this information that you
had just described being given to you?
SUSAN
HURRELL
I was quite excited and said, "Quick, better go and
tell the police sergeant, we must share this information,
we had better go and tell the police sergeant."
MR LATHAM
yes. and?
SUSAN HURRELL
so I took him over to the police sergeant but he didn't
seem as excited as I was, I really wanted to get him over
to the police sergeant to share the information and he
was more reluctant to go with me.
MR
LATHAM
did you get the attention of the sergeant?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, I did, I said to the police sergeant, I have got
someone here, I think you need to listen to this, I think
he has seen the girls.
MR LATHAM
yes. what was the sergeant's reaction as you were saying
this - you are gesturing with your hand?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, "I think you really need to listen to this,
you need to listen to this!"
MR
LATHAM
what was her reaction. she?
SUSAN HURRELL
she just stood there waiting to hear the information.
MR LATHAM
and he?
SUSAN HURRELL
he started to explain but he floundered a bit and really,
didn't say much more, so I interrupted to add the information
he had just given me. The police sergeant said, "No",
she said, "I need to hear it from him" and he
said, "No, that's all right, she can tell you",
he said, "I'm tired and my head is muddled."
MR LATHAM
from what the sergeant was saying to both of you hat did
you understand she wanted to happen?
SUSAN
HURRELL
I was so excited at having seen that he had seen the girls
this was the first positive sighting that I was not really
very calm myself and trying to get the information across
to the police sergeant.
MR LATHAM
What did the police sergeant indicate to you?
SUSAN HURRELL
Well, he then started again because she said I need to
hear it in his own words, so then he started again, but
he also floundered again and didn't really say very much
so I interrupted again to try and relay this information
and the police sergeant said "Look", she said
"I need to hear it in his own words so go away."
She sent me away.
MR LATHAM
Did you go away?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, I rejoined the rest of the group.
MR
LATHAM
Did that conclude your dealing with Ian Huntley on that
night?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, it did.
MR LATHAM
Of course we are all aware that matters moved on over
the next few days and the girls were not found. Did you
have to go to his home for a particular reason on Friday,
9th August?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
So the Friday of the week that had just started ?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
What sort of time of day was it?
SUSAN
HURRELL
It was about half past three, four o'clock time.
MR LATHAM
In the afternoon?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, in the afternoon.
MR LATHAM
You went to his home?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes I went to his house. Transcript delayed - will resume
shortly
MR LATHAM
Was the door open or closed when you got to the house?
SUSAN HURRELL
The door was closed.
MR LATHAM
What did you do?
SUSAN HURRELL
I knocked for a long time and I stopped and knocked again
and I concluded that although the car was in the driveway
there wasn't anybody at home and I started to go back
towards the car when Ian appeared at door.
MR
LATHAM
When he appeared at the door did he seem to recognise
you?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And what happened next?
SUSAN HURRELL
He insisted that I went into the house and I said "No,
I haven't got time, my mother and my children are in the
car." and he said "No, come in, come in",
he said, "We have been bothered by lots of press
and police and journalists" and he didn't want to
stand on the doorstep. He insisted I went into the house.
MR LATHAM
Which room of the house did you go into?
SUSAN
HURRELL
We went into the lounge.
MR LATHAM
Was there someone else in the lounge?
SUSAN
HURRELL
Yes, Maxine was in the lounge as well.
MR
LATHAM
I think in fact you had got a domestic problem in the
sense that some property had got left behind in the Lode
Centre, hadn't it?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, from our play scheme we had had the week before.
MR LATHAM
and it was secured and you needed to get a key to get
into the Lode centre?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
what was his response when you explained why you wanted
to be there?
SUSAN HURRELL
he said that he couldn't take me over to the Lode centre,
and I couldn't have the key because he was having a day
off, he said Howard Gilbert the principal of the College
had given him the day off because he had not been sleeping;
he had been working really hard and had to go to College
for the press conferences, so he was really tired and
had been given the day off.
MR LATHAM
you mentioned already on the doorstep he explained why
he wanted you to actually come in?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
did he expand upon that at all when you went into the
living room?
SUSAN HURRELL
he just said that he had been bothered by the police and
the press, and it was awful living there with everything
that was going on.
MR LATHAM
did Maxine Carr say anything while you were there or not?
SUSAN HURRELL
we were just discussing the press quite a lot because
my daughters, two daughters who were 17 and 18, had been
interviewed a few days earlier and I was not there and
I tried to get (inaudible) for the BBC. We spent a long
time discussing the press and the police.
MR
LATHAM
was she involved in that conversation?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, she was.
MR LATHAM
I think you left at that point?
SUSAN
HURRELL
Yes, I was only there about 10 minutes.
MR
LATHAM
saying wait until another time to get the key to retrieve
the property?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
you told us that on that occasion in the afternoon, the
Friday afternoon, it had taken an awfully long time before
he answered the door?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
did he touch upon that, the fact that he had not in fact
first answered the door, and explain why?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, he said that he had to check first to see who it
was before he actually anchored the door.
MR
LATHAM
you have mentioned the press, did he say anything else
about the press and not answering the door?
SUSAN HURRELL
just that he had been plagued by them
MR
LATHAM
To do what?
SUSAN HURRELL
because he had seen the girls and they were wanting to
talk him and he didn't want to talk to them; he didn't
want to talk to the press at all.
MR
LATHAM
thank you, would you wait there.
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
I think, Mrs Hurrell, there was huge press interest from
5th August?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR COWARD
So by this Friday, 9th August, can you give us a picture
of roughly how many representatives of the newspapers
and television were permanently in Soham?
SUSAN
HURRELL
The car park at Village College was absolutely parked
full of satellite vans, journalists - the town was just
full of people in suits with mobile phones and journalists
everywhere and television cameras.
MR
COWARD
So we are talking about in the hundreds are we?
SUSAN HURRELL
I don't know, there could have been, there could have
been, lots and lots. Yes.
MR COWARD
I think you have given us a picture. Before you spoke
to Mr Huntley on the night of, it is now the early hours
of the first, by the rendezvous point at the police control,
had you spoken to two people, a man called Mr Hobbs and
a man called Mr Jarvis?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes , I spoke to Mr Jarvis, yes.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
We are not having questions where you told one witness
what another witness said. Put it in another way.
MR COWARD
I will try and think of another way of putting it. When
you spoke to Mr Jarvis, can you now remember what you
talked about?
SUSAN HURRELL
We were talking about the girls going missing and we had
been searching, and he said that he had become involved
because we had been searching a derelict area next door
to where he lived. He had heard all the noise and so he
had come and that was why he had joined the search; he
heard us calling.
MR COWARD
To the best of your knowledge and belief, during your
conversation with Mr Jarvis he did not mention the caretaker?
SUSAN HURRELL
I think he did - I think he did mention the caretaker,
I think we were talking - did we say who is that over
there or, and I said it is the caretaker of the Village
College? I don't know if he asked me or how we got talking
about him, but yes I remember telling him it was the caretaker
of the Village College.
MR COWARD
When you had the conversation with Mr Huntley near the
control point?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR COWARD
You were in possession, weren't you, of an important bit
of information because when Mr Huntley said to you one
of them asked "How is Miss Carr?"
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR COWARD
Because you knew Maxine taught. There was a link, suddenly
it all fell into place?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR COWARD
You told Mr Huntley that must be Jessica, it must be the
two missing girls because they mentioned Miss Carr?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes, definitely, yes.
MR COWARD
Only one other matter, Mrs Hurrell. Could I suggest to
you that when the question of the time that Mr Huntley
saw the girls cropped up, he said about six o'clock?
SUSAN HURRELL
No he definitely said ten to six, he definitely said ten
to six, because I did question him. I said "Are you
sure it was ten to six?", and he said he was sure
because of what he had been doing with his dog. Whether
he had looked at his watch or whatever I don't know, but
he said it was because of his dog he could pin-point to
it that time.
MR COWARD
there we are. Thank you. Before Maxine Carr became a temporary----
MR HUBBARD
before Maxine Carr became a temporary assistant at the
school she came as a volunteer?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes, she was.
MR HUBBARD
you found that surprising?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, did.
MR HUBBARD
normally volunteers are mothers, fathers, grandparents
or relatives of the children in the school?
SUSAN HURRELL
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
you explained she was giving her time and energy for free?
SUSAN HURRELL
I did.
MR HUBBARD
did you gain the impression she absolutely adored that
job?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did did.
MR HUBBARD
and equally absolutely adored those children she worked
with?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes, I did.
MR HUBBARD
it would be fair to say, from what you observed of her,
that she gave her all?
SUSAN HURRELL
definitely yes, yes. I didn't actually see her working
in the classroom but she definitely enjoyed being in the
school.
MR HUBBARD
you saw her in the reception area, I think, from time
to time, the staff room, things like that?
SUSAN
HURRELL
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and of course you were talking to her over the months
that she was there?
SUSAN HURRELL
yes.
MR HUBBARD
thank you.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
(The witness withdrew)
MR LATHAM
MICHELLE HURRELL, please.
MR COWARD
while MICHELLE HURRELL is being brought into court there
is only one minor matter I would ask her questions about,
I put to SUSAN HURRELL, the mother, the conflict over
the time that was said; it is not something I think Michelle
specifically deals with.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
put your case anyway.
MR COWARD
the next witness, Louise Hurrell, the only point there
would be the time. she is a young girl and I don't require
her to----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
do you want to call Louise.
MR LATHAM
I would just ask for Michelle to come to court and we
can take that shortly anyway.
MR LATHAM
can you give your full name, please?
MICHELLE
HURRELL
Michelle Jane Hurrell.
MR LATHAM
you appreciate that I want to ask you about the night
of Sunday, 4th August of last year, into the early hours
of the Monday morning. Transcript delayed - will resume
shortly I think you were out with our mother and, indeed,
your sister, and, for that matter, many other people in
Soham, looking for the two missing girls, weren't you,
who you knew to be Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman?
MICHELLE HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
that's at the time you knew you were looking for those
two girls?
MICHELLE HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
after you had been out driving around and searching for
some considerable time you went back to what had become
the rendezvous point at the mouth of the school driveway,
didn't you?
MICHELLE HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
where there were various police vehicles and indeed a
congregation of people that had been searching?
MICHELLE HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
there came a time shortly after you had got there when
your mother became engaged in a conversation with a man?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Were you there when that conversation took place?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Was that a man who, on that morning, you recognised?
MICHELLE HURRELL
No, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
You didn't know him at all?
MICHELLE
HURRELL
No.
MR LATHAM
Did you, on that night, know what his job was?
MICHELLE HURRELL
No.
MR LATHAM
So it is simply a man who was at the scene?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you hear the beginning of the conversation or did
you just pick up once the conversation got under way what
was being----?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Picked up once under way.
MR LATHAM
Shortly after you started to listen, did the man indicate
something, or describe something, that had happened earlier
on that evening that involved him?
MICHELLE
HURRELL
Yes, he said that he had seen a dark haired girl and a
blonde haired girl walk past his house.
MR
LATHAM
Walked past his house?
MICHELLE HURRELL
He had seen them that Sunday night.
MR
LATHAM
Seen them that Sunday night?
MICHELLE
HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I think your mother become quite excited?
MICHELLE
HURRELL
Yes she did, yes.
MR LATHAM
And asked whether anything had been said between them?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
When there had been this meeting. Then asked that they
should or he should go over and speak to the police sergeant
who was there?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Do you remember anything else about the onversation between
your mother and the man once it had got under way and
he had mentioned seeing the two girls go past his house?
MICHELLE HURRELL
No, just that it was a blonde haired girl and a brown
haired girl.
MR LATHAM
Thank you, wait there, please.
MR COWARD
To jog your memory was there a mention of him saying they
asked how Miss Carr was?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes.
MR COWARD
The only other thing I would like your help on is this
when you, your mum and the caretaker Mr Huntley, went
over to the police sergeant, the police sergeant sent
your mum away, didn't she?
MICHELLE
HURRELL
Yes.
MR COWARD
You noticed, didn't you, as Mr Huntley was talking to
the police sergeant that she was writing down in a notebook?
MICHELLE HURRELL
No, I didn't notice anything, I just saw him talking to
the police sergeant. I didn't see the police sergeant
writing anything down.
MR COWARD
Miss Hurrell, would you have a look at your statement,
please, made by you on 19th August. I would ask you to
look at the second typed page, about 7 or 8 lines down
it says this "He did follow and began speaking to
the police sergeant. I remember the police officer sending
mum away?"
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes I do remember it now.
MR COWARD
Here you are, it just shows it is a long time ago?
MICHELLE HURRELL
Yes, it was.
MR COWARD
and it was fresh in your mind at the time, so the police
sergeant was writing down what he was saying?
MICHELLE HURRELL
yes.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
no questions.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much
(the witness withdrew)
MR LATHAM
what I intend to do is just call Louise Hurrell to deal
with the one point.
MR COWARD
unless your Lordship requires me to put it again, she
is young girl - I see no point.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
unless she would like to give evidence.
MR
LATHAM
she's young girl, but she is 18.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
let's have Louise Hurrell, she has probably hung around
a couple of days then to be sent away without coming into
court.
MR LATHAM
can you start by telling us your full name, please?
LOUISE HURRELL
Louise Ann Hurrell, Louise.
MR LATHAM
Louise, I only want to ask you about one matter, it relates
to the conversation your mother had with the man at the
rendezvous point in the early hours of the Monday morning
after you had been out with your mother and sister searching
for the two missing girls for several hours. there came
a time when your mother began talking to a man, is that
right?
LOUISE HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you hear the beginning of the conversation or just
suddenly become conscious of the fact there was a conversation
going on?
LOUISE HURRELL
I didn't hear the start, I only picked up bits, I (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
did you hear a man describing something about having seen
two girls?
LOUISE HURRELL
Yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
can we pick it up here and see what you recollect him
saying about seeing or meeting the two girls; that's all
I an interested in, all right?
LOUISE
HURRELL
yes.
MR LATHAM
tell us what you remember being said by him?
LOUISE HURRELL
I remember him saying that, saying he had seen them at
ten to six and they were walking past his house towards
the library, so away from his house.
MR
LATHAM
did your mother ask something when he mentioned what you
just described?
LOUISE HURRELL
sorry, I can't remember, I'm trying to think.
MR LATHAM
don't worry, take a deep breath, she?
LOUISE
HURRELL
she she asked if they said anything, if they spoke, and
he said, yes, they asked how Miss carr was. They were
wearing Manchester United shirts as well.
MR
LATHAM
the time you mentioned that he gave was?
LOUISE
HURRELL
ten to six.
MR LATHAM
ten to six?
MR LATHAM
thank you, will you wait there, please.
MR
COWARD
Miss Hurrell, I suggest he said it was about six o'clock?
LOUISE HURRELL
no, definitely ten to six.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
no questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much
(the witness withdrew)
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