| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
14/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 14 November 2003
SKY News
MR LATHAM is the chief prosecutor and MR JUSTICE
MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07 08
MR LATHAM
sergeant Nelson, please.
(Sergeant PAULINE NELSON, sworn Examined by
MR LATHAM)
MR LATHAM
will you start, please, by giving your name, rank nd
station, please?
PAULINE NELSON
I'm PAULINE NELSON, a Police Sergeant of Cambridgeshire
Constabulary, currently stationed at Ely police station.
MR LATHAM
I think you were stationed there last year, weren't
you?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
On Sunday, 4th August last year, were you on a tour
of duty which started at four in the afternoon and was
due to finish at midnight?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And I think you had two constables on the four to midnight
period and then two further constables due to overlap
from ten until six the following morning, correct?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Where were you at around ten o'clock when you first
heard about the two girls missing in Soham?
PAULINE NELSON
In Ely police station.
MR LATHAM
I think over the radio you heard that there had been
this report of the two ten year olds?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you dispatch two police officers, constables Bradley
and Bloodworth to go to the address of the informants
who you understood were the Wells family at Red House
Gardens in Soham?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
Did you tell them that they were to report back to you
as soon as they got some detailed information?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you also notify the force control room so that the
duty inspector would be aware that there were two missing
people?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you then get a telephone call from Constable Bradley
at the Wells family home giving you, as it were, a first
report?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And did you learn that he had spoken to both mothers?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
The mothers of Jessica and Holly, as it turned out to
be, and that other family members were already out searching
for the girls?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes I did.
MR LATHAM
I think whenever there is an incident of any sort of
a missing person, those on the ground - that's police
officers, have take to make a pretty quick assessment
of the seriousness of the situation, don't they?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes, they do.
MR LATHAM
I think by talking to Constable Bradley you formed a
very early assessment of the position here, didn't you?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
And what was that?
PAULINE NELSON
I was very concerned for the safety of the two young
ladies.
MR LATHAM
Yes. From everything you were learning from the first
information onwards, did you gather that this was the
sort of behaviour that you would expect from the two
girls that you were concerned with?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR LATHAM
Out of character?
PAULINE NELSON
Totally out of character from what I had been given.
MR LATHAM
I think before you left Ely police station you got a
street map of Soham ran off, got somebody to run off
lots of photocopies and did you collect together a special
box before leaving the station?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
can you tell us what that was?
PAULINE NELSON
basically, a large metal box which contains items that
you may require at a major incident.
MR LATHAM
yes, what sort of things in it?
PAULINE NELSON
such as barrier tape, papers, pens.
MR LATHAM
dragon lamps as well?
PAULINE NELSON
they are not actually in the box, collected those separately.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
if you lead though, it is wholly uncontroversial.
MR LATHAM
with the greatest respect, in the light of the cross-examination
of the witness not five minutes ago, it might be highly
controversial.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
right.
MR LATHAM
did you get to Soham?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you go when you got into Soham?
PAULINE NELSON
I stopped in the High Street and then I went to Red
House Gardens.
MR LATHAM
did you speak to Constable Bloodworth there or Constable
Bradley?
PAULINE NELSON
Constable Bradley.
MR LATHAM
having spoken to them and made a more detailed assessment,
did there come a time when you began to organise the
search in Soham ?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
and where did you base yourself in order to organise
the search?
PAULINE NELSON
at the main entrance to Soham Village College on Sand
Street.
MR LATHAM
what sort of time was it that you set up the search
centre?
PAULINE NELSON
I believe it was around about 11 o'clock.
MR LATHAM
from then onwards were you static or did you move around
the town herself?
PAULINE NELSON
no, I stayed in one place.
MR LATHAM
how many police officers did you have working with you
from 11 o'clock onwards?
PAULINE NELSON
I can't remember off the top of my head but I did make
a note of it.
MR LATHAM
approximately how many people?
PAULINE NELSON
about eight.
MR LATHAM
I take it they had come from places other than Ely station?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
how many members of the public were you dealing with
once this search got under way from the rendezvous point?
PAULINE NELSON
ranging between 20 and 40.
MR LATHAM
did you have a helicopter up for a time?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did you do in relation to the search of Soham?
how did you organise it?
PAULINE NELSON
the map that I had photocopied I divided into squares
and then delegated officers a copy of the map I had
with their square that they were to search.
MR LATHAM
I think you had an officer with a trained dog for a
time, we have heard about that, Constable Burton?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you also get a list from the families of all the
possible locations that they could think of where the
girls might have been or ended up?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
during the course of the early hours of the morning,
were you getting any information as to sightings of
the girls after they had left the family home in Red
House Gardens?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR LATHAM
Were you aware of any CCTV street cameras in Soham?
PAULINE NELSON
There were none at the time.
MR LATHAM
By two o'clock in the morning you said you divided Soham
up into various squares to be searched, how had the
searching of those squares progressed as you understood
as co-ordinator of the search?
PAULINE NELSON
As officers were returning to me I was colouring in
my copy of the map and the squares were all being filled
up.
MR LATHAM
With no reports?
PAULINE NELSON
No reports of any sightings.
MR LATHAM
Were you aware that it was believed that Jessica had
a mobile telephone with her?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Were you also doing your best to get information if
it could be found from the cell site, the service provider
of that telephone?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Was it just the centre of Soham that was being searched?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR LATHAM
Where else were you searching - I don't want everywhere
but can you give an indication of the sort of size of
the search you were co-ordinating by two o'clock in
the morning?
PAULINE NELSON
Approximately a five mile radius of where I was.
MR LATHAM
As you co-ordinated this search, did there come a time
when you became aware of one man in particular who was
in the crowd, that from time to time was gathering at
the rendezvous point?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Was he on his own or with something?
PAULINE NELSON
He was with something.
MR LATHAM
What?
PAULINE NELSON
The dog.
MR LATHAM
Did you come to learn what you understood to be the
name of the dog at any stage during that night?
PAULINE NELSON
Something like Sheila.
MR LATHAM
Was the dog on a lead?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR LATHAM
Was the dog remaining static or moving about?
PAULINE NELSON
It would no, it was moving around.
MR LATHAM
What was the man doing from time to time?
PAULINE NELSON
. Calling it.
MR LATHAM
At some stage did you get quite close to the man before
in fact you ever spoke to him?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you notice anything about him ?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Just describe it if you will, please?
PAULINE NELSON
He smelt as if he was freshly bathed, you could smell
soap or after shave, some sort of smell.
MR COWARD
My Lord I noticed at that stage my learned friend in
part was leading the witness to his proximity to the
man, can I ask that he does not lead in future? Was
she at one stage very close to the man.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Anyway, I didn't, I thought my antenna were fairly good
about
MR LATHAM
but obviously they were not sufficient. Anyway.
MR LATHAM
In saying that he smelt as he did, you obviously worked
out that takes you into the early hours of the morning
in and so on and having people coming into work early
shifts and so on?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes?
MR LATHAM
Can you help in relation to that?
PAULINE NELSON
I would equate his odour with that of my officers when
they come on duty on an early turn that could be six
o'clock in the morning when they are all fresh and bathed.
MR LATHAM
How did he compare with the other people out searching
from time to time coming back to the rendezvous point,
now well into the early hours of the morning?
PAULINE NELSON
Everybody else, myself included, was rather bedraggled
and stale.
MR LATHAM
Did he seem to be doing anything as you noticed him
around and about at the rendezvous point?
PAULINE NELSON
No, just hanging around.
MR LATHAM
Now, did there come a time when a member of the public
approached you and gave you some information, a woman.
MR COWARD
My Lord, again, with the greatest of respect to my learned
friend, my learned friend can ask the witness to go
through the sequence of events. We know that that was
a difficult question, because we know there are three
people. Suddenly there is a direction to it and it is
not right.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
You will be very careful of the points when it does
matter I'm sure.
MR LATHAM
Sorry if I sound somewhat irritated in the last few
minutes, my Lord, it is because I am trying not to lead
where I have been asked not to lead, but I had not understood
there was any dispute----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Well you do now. Anyway, what happened next.
MR COWARD
My Lord I turned about four pages , I can go through
all that if my learned friend wants but I do not want
to.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
You ask what you were going to ask, and try not to suggest
an answer.
MR LATHAM
Perhaps I can get at it this way. You have described
a man with a dog moving around and at one stage being
close enough to you that you could smell him?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Was there ever a time that night when you spoke to that
man?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
I want to look at that and the events leading up to
your speaking to him, alright? If I can take that one
way. How did it come about that you ever ended up talking
to him? What happened before it started?
PAULINE NELSON
A member of the crowd asked me what time the girls had
last been sighted. I told them the time.
MR LATHAM
What time did you give them?
PAULINE NELSON
I believe it was half past six.
MR LATHAM
Where did you understand that was coming from, the half
past six time?
PAULINE NELSON
From the home address.
MR LATHAM
So your understanding was what as at that point?
PAULINE NELSON
That the girls had last been seen in Red House Close
at half past six.
MR LATHAM
had you at that stage any information of any other contact
with any members of the public, so far as those girls
were concerned?
PAULINE NELSON
no.
MR LATHAM
right. So a member of the public asked when were they
last seen?
PAULINE NELSON
when I replied I was told the caretaker had seen them
beforehand.
MR LATHAM
who told you that?
PAULINE NELSON
Mrs Hurrell.
MR LATHAM
the caretaker had seen them?
PAULINE NELSON
prior to half past six.
MR LATHAM
prior to half six? how far away from you was Mrs Hurrell
when she gave you that information?
PAULINE NELSON
about five or six feet.
MR LATHAM
had she been standing there, as it were, stationary,
and told you this after the inquiry from the crowd,
or did she move towards you to tell you?
PAULINE NELSON
she started to move towards me.
MR LATHAM
what was her demeanour at that stage?
PAULINE NELSON
she was anxious.
MR LATHAM
and what did she tell you?
PAULINE NELSON
she told me that the girls had been sighted before the
time that I knew of.
MR LATHAM
by?
PAULINE NELSON
the caretaker.
MR LATHAM
had you had that piece of information before that moment?
PAULINE NELSON
no.
MR LATHAM
what was your reaction to receiving that information?
PAULINE NELSON
I was annoyed.
MR COWARD
what was the witness's reaction is of no concern to
this jury.
MR LATHAM
it may affect the way the witness behaved.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
ask another question.
MR LATHAM
I will try again. What did you say to her when you started
to get this information?
PAULINE NELSON
I wanted to know where the information came from and
how she knew it, and she pointed out Mr Huntley and
told me that he was the one who had told her that he
had seen the girls earlier.
MR LATHAM
two questions arising out of that. firstly, at that
moment, did you in fact know the name Ian Huntley or
are you applying a name now in the light of your present
knowledge as opposed to your knowledge on the night?
PAULINE NELSON
I have learned that subsequently.
MR LATHAM
where was Mr Huntley when she pointed him out?
PAULINE NELSON
he was about eight to ten feet away from me.
MR LATHAM
what did you do as soon as you had had this man pointed
out to you?
PAULINE NELSON
I pointed at him and virtually shouted, "You, here!".
MR LATHAM
right. what did he do?
PAULINE NELSON
he came towards me.
MR LATHAM
about how far away would he have been from you when
he came towards you, when he got to you?
PAULINE NELSON
as he got nearer, I began to feel more uncomfortable
and when he got----
MR LATHAM
how far away from he from you when you talked, when
you began a conversation with him, how far away from
him?
PAULINE NELSON
About three feet.
MR LATHAM
What did you say, who started the conversation between
the two of you?
PAULINE NELSON
I did.
MR LATHAM
What did you say?
PAULINE NELSON
I wanted to know about his knowledge of the sighting
of the girls.
MR LATHAM
Yes. Were there other people around?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Immediately before you had started the conversation
with Mr Huntley, what had those other people been doing?
PAULINE NELSON
There was general background chatter, they were talking
amongst themselves.
MR LATHAM
From the moment you began the conversation with him,
what happened?
PAULINE NELSON
It went very quiet.
MR LATHAM
Did you make a note of this conversation that you are
about to describe?
PAULINE NELSON
No, not at the time.
MR LATHAM
When did you first, if ever you did, reduce what was
said to writing?
PAULINE NELSON
In my statement that I made.
MR LATHAM
Had you made any note of what was said?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR LATHAM
Before that at all?
PAULINE NELSON
There was a couple of references in the conversation
that I recorded in the missing from home book.
MR LATHAM
Can I just jump ahead if I may? When did you go off
duty that morning. You told us in fact you were due
to go off duty at midnight. ...I went off at 9 o'clock
in the morning.... or did you go back to Ely police
station before you finished your turn of duty?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
At 9 o'clock, given you had been in charge of a missing
person inquiry, what did you do when you got back to
the police station?
PAULINE NELSON
After debriefing my officers and ascertaining exactly
what information we had, sat down at the computer and
started the missing from home log.
MR LATHAM
The missing from home log, what is that?
PAULINE NELSON
When a person goes missing, the database we have in
Cambridge constabulary for missing from homes is started
and you start a new log for each person and you record
personal detail and then a free text.
MR LATHAM
And within the free text in this log that you started
to create that morning, did you include any reference
at all to the conversation that you are about to describe?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
In any detail or just the fact that you simply had spoken
to Mr Huntley?
PAULINE NELSON
Just that we had spoken.
MR LATHAM
Right. That is a computerised record, I think isn't
it
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Do I take it you can get a printout of the record if
one wants it?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Can I take you back, if I may, to the conversation you
have started to describe? As best you can recollect
it, tell us what was said?
PAULINE NELSON
I asked him how he came to see the girls and where.
he told me that he had seen them at Lodeside, the Ross
Peers centre. he told me they had asked after Miss Carr.
he said that they had asked about how she was feeling.
MR LATHAM
did he indicate when he had seen them?
PAULINE NELSON
I can't remember at the moment. it was about half past
five, I believe he said.
MR LATHAM
did you ask him something?
PAULINE NELSON
I would have done but I can't remember at the moment
what it was.
MR LATHAM
do you have any note at all in relation to this conversation
or not?
PAULINE NELSON
from my statement.
MR LATHAM
the statement was 21st August. I'm not suggesting she
should refer to her statement, my Lord. he had mentioned
the Lodeside site and the Ross Peers centre?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
you said you thought the time he gave was half past
five?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
you have said this was the first you had heard of him
in the minute or so leading up to this conversation
when Mrs Hurrell had mentioned it to you?
PAULINE NELSON
that's right.
MR LATHAM
here you were in the early hours of the morning, so
hours later. did you ask him any question about that?
PAULINE NELSON
I asked why he had not told anybody.
MR LATHAM
yes. what did he say?
PAULINE NELSON
he said that he had.
MR LATHAM
did he indicate who he had told?
PAULINE NELSON
he waved his arm at the crowd and said he had told them.
MR LATHAM
did you ask something when he indicated the crowd?
PAULINE NELSON
I wanted to know if he had told a police officer, but
he hadn't.
MR LATHAM
he hadn't? given that this information had now been
given to you about the Ross Peers centre, were you interested
in that centre in the light of what had been said by
Mr Huntley?
PAULINE NELSON
very interested.
MR LATHAM
so what did you do?
PAULINE NELSON
I dispatched an officer to a person who had identified
himself as a caretaker of the Ross Peers centre to go
and check their CCTV which he said covered the car park
area.
MR LATHAM
somebody indicated there was a CCTV camera, did you
know that already or was this news to you?
PAULINE NELSON
this was news.
MR LATHAM
he told you that he had told someone and gestured towards
the crowd but no, he had not told a police officer?
PAULINE NELSON
that's right.
MR LATHAM
did you say anything or ask anything when he said he
had not told a police officer?
PAULINE NELSON
I asked why.
MR LATHAM
what was the explanation?
PAULINE NELSON
he didn't think it was necessary. .
MR LATHAM
Going back to what he had already told you, did you
ask any other questions to try and get any more detail
of his sighting that he was describing? Did he tell
you anything else about this sighting that you recollect?
PAULINE NELSON
Not at the moment, no.
MR LATHAM
Right. You have mentioned that earlier you had thought
you had learned the name of his dog?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
When do you think you learned the name of the dog?
PAULINE NELSON
When he had been calling the dog.
MR LATHAM
Right. Was there any other reference to the dog on that
night?
PAULINE NELSON
I spoke to him about his dog.
MR LATHAM
Right, help us about that, if you will?
PAULINE NELSON
He didn't seem very comfortable talking to me and being
aware that not everybody likes talking to the police,
I thought I would talk to him about his dog, being a
dog owner myself so I asked him about whether it was
a pedigree dog, or a 'Heinz' dog, a dog or bitch, whether
it got on with children, whether he could have the dog
at school.
MR LATHAM
In relation to the dog, did he then tell you something
else?
PAULINE NELSON
He said the dog was on heat.
MR LATHAM
Anything else of interest to you rather than just general
conversation about his dog in relation to the children?
PAULINE NELSON
That the children liked the dog and he was with the
dog when he had seen the children.
MR LATHAM
So he told you that, did he?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you ask him about any other details about the two
children?
PAULINE NELSON
I asked him about the relationship with Miss Carr.
MR LATHAM
Yes?
PAULINE NELSON
Because I found it strange that two ten year olds would
ask after, is turned out to be their classroom assistant.
MR LATHAM
Did you know that up to that moment in the conversation?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR LATHAM
Did he explain that?
PAULINE NELSON
He explained that she was their classroom assistant
and her contract had not been renewed.
MR LATHAM
Her contact had not been renewed and anything else about
the girls apart from about Miss Carr?
PAULINE NELSON
They were wondering if she was all right.
MR LATHAM
In relation to the time when he said this had happened,
was the time as far as you were concerned of any importance,
the time of this incident?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you ask any further questions about the time?
PAULINE NELSON
How he could be certain of the time.
MR LATHAM
What did he say?
PAULINE NELSON
Just said that he knew it was that time.
MR LATHAM
Did he give you any description at all of the girls?
PAULINE NELSON
He said they were wearing red tops.
MR LATHAM
About how long were you talking to this man, who turned
out to be Mr Huntley?
PAULINE NELSON
about 10 minutes.
MR LATHAM
thank you. would you wait there, please
Cross-examined by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
could I try to follow exactly what you have said with
regard record keeping? you had obviously taken pen and
paper to the control point at the College so you could
give that out to the team so they could jot down any
notes they needed?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
is there also an incident book in which all relevant
material is logged as a sort of diary as to what is
happening?
PAULINE NELSON
if you start one off, yes.
MR COWARD
did you on this missing persons' inquiry start such
a hand written record?
PAULINE NELSON
I didn't start a major incident log, but the officers
attending the addresses would have started off a missing-from-home
log which is the paper copy which is later transferred
to the computer.
MR COWARD
so for a major incident inquiry, as this was treated
as, would there be a method by which there is a recording
of what members of the public are saying, not necessarily
to you, but to your team of officers?
PAULINE NELSON
not at that time, no.
MR COWARD
so if for example Mrs Smith comes up to PC Jones and
says, "I think I saw Holly and Jessica outside
the bakers shop", no procedure was then in existence
to noting that down?
PAULINE NELSON
it would have been in the officer's pocket book.
MR COWARD
each officer has a pocket book for important information?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
and you have a pocket for important information?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
you had your pocket book with you that night?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
what does your pocket book contain of the events of
that night?
PAULINE NELSON
Holly and Jessica's names, and the descriptions and
Mrs Hurrell's details.
MR COWARD
and?
PAULINE NELSON
Mrs Hurrell's details.
MR COWARD
Mrs Hurrell's details. nothing about Mr Huntley?
PAULINE NELSON
that's correct.
MR COWARD
when Mr Huntley spoke to you did you write anything
down?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
in a book?
PAULINE NELSON
no.
MR COWARD
what was it on?
PAULINE NELSON
a piece of paper.
MR COWARD
right. Why were you using pieces of paper when you have
a notebook?
PAULINE NELSON
the paper was being used so that when I got back to
the police station I could collate it all in one place
because I knew it would be going on to the missing from
home database.
MR COWARD
it quickly became apparent to you, when Mr Huntley began
speaking to you, that what he was saying could well
be significant?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
was not that the moment at which to say, hang on a minute
I'm going to put this in my pocket book?
PAULINE NELSON
with hindsight.
MR COWARD
we do have the pieces of paper, do we?
PAULINE NELSON
I don't know.
MR COWARD
what happened to them when you wrote down what Mr Huntley
told you?
PAULINE NELSON
They were handed to the inspector that came on in the
morning along with all the other printed maps.
MR COWARD
Have you hunted for them since?
PAULINE NELSON
I haven't.
MR COWARD
Have you had somebody to hunt for them for you? To the
best of your knowledge and belief have they turned up?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR COWARD
So you never saw the notes again after you handed them
to the inspector on the morning of the 5th when he took
over from you?
PAULINE NELSON
That's correct.
MR COWARD
As a matter of fact the statement that we have before
us from you is dated 21st August?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
I think you have indicated to the jury that is the first
time you put down in writing the events of that night?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
Why did it take so long?
PAULINE NELSON
Because we were told that officers would be coming to
take our statements.
MR COWARD
Well, officers obviously didn't come, in your case,
until 21st August. Did it occur to you to jot down any
notes between the 5th and 21st so you could refresh.
(inaudible)
MR COWARD
By the end of the night when darkness came in and you
had to abandon the search until there was light in the
morning, how many police officers turned up?
PAULINE NELSON
No extra officers had arrived.
MR COWARD
So how many did you have?
PAULINE NELSON
About eight.
MR COWARD
Did you ask for more?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
Other commitments made it not possible?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
You and the eight were trying to do something which
obviously needed a lot more?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
That's a fact of life and you had to live with. Do you
know Susan Wren?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR COWARD
You didn't know her on that night?
PAULINE NELSON
She was helping me on the night but I didn't know her
personally.
MR COWARD
You had never met her before?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR COWARD
Did you discover she was called
SUSAN HURRELL
that night?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
Were you aware that night she had her daughters with
her?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR COWARD
Can I test one feature of your memory tell us again
how and in what circumstances Mr Huntley came up to
where you were?
PAULINE NELSON
At which point, sir?
MR COWARD
Before you spoke to him and before he spoke to you?
PAULINE NELSON
I just became aware of him being about.
MR COWARD
Where was he according to you when you became aware
of him being about, in relation to where you were standing
either with one of the Members of the Jury or the edge
of the dock, give the sort of distance we are talking
about, give us the picture?
PAULINE NELSON
About as far as this lady, about ten feet. .
MR COWARD
what do you say you said?
PAULINE NELSON
"you, here!"
MR COWARD
"you, here!" if I were to suggest to you,
sergeant, that that did not happen, and that
SUSAN HURRELL
walked across with Mr Huntley to where you were, what
do you say?
PAULINE NELSON
I would say I would stand by what I said.
MR COWARD
if I was to suggest to you that
SUSAN HURRELL
's daughters were with her at that stage, what would
you say?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
and the conversation, as you have described it to be,
you are forced to rely on your memory now of what it
is and what you may have said on 21st August, some fortnight
after the events?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
do you accept that possibility, sergeant, that you may
have made serious factual errors with regard what you
remember Mr Huntley saying?
PAULINE NELSON
no.
MR COWARD
according to the evidence you have given to the Jury
today, Mr Huntley said that he had seen the girls at
Lodeside and at the Ross Peers centre. you stand by
that?
PAULINE NELSON
they are one and the same area.
MR COWARD
as you understood it it is one place?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes, the Lodeside which is the Ross Peers area.
MR COWARD
that is your understanding, is it?
PAULINE NELSON
yes, Lodeside.
MR COWARD
any particular part of the Lodeside/Ross Peers area
that you recollect him saying?
PAULINE NELSON
not as I recollect.
MR COWARD
did Mr Huntley ever say he saw the girls outside his
house, number 5 College Close?
PAULINE NELSON
not that I recall.
MR COWARD
could I also suggest that there never was at this stage
with Mr Huntley any talk of anyone going to look at
the CCTV at Lodeside and Mr Huntley saying, "I
will go with him" and you said "You are not."
I suggest that simply didn't happen. what do you say?
PAULINE NELSON
I say it did.
MR COWARD
you see, what I suggest happened is that Mr Huntley
came, with Mrs Hurrell and the two daughters, over to
where you were, and Mrs Hurrell began explaining to
you what Mr Huntley could tell you. you said "I
want to hear it from him". Is that the sort of
thing you would have said?
PAULINE NELSON
possibly.
MR COWARD
get it from the horse's mouth other than relay it through
somebody else. makes sense, doesn't it?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
He began talking to you and got in a complete flummox
over it and
SUSAN HURRELL
chipped in again and began telling you the story and
you said "No, I want it from him", and he
had another go at it and made a flummox of it again
and
SUSAN HURRELL
tried again to tell you and you told her to go away
"I will deal with him and I will get the story
from him." That's what actually happened, isn't
it?
PAULINE NELSON
I don't recall it that way, no.
MR COWARD
You don't recall it that way? When he was able to speak
in a coherent manner to you, the account he gave, in
essence, was that he had seen two girls, it seemed as
if it was likely to be Holly and Jessica, outside his
house at around six o'clock. That's what he told you,
isn't it?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR COWARD
Could I just follow up one aspect of some evidence you
have given. You said when you had, at one stage, a crowd
there, the question arose someone said "What is
the last sighting of the girls that the police have?
". You have told the Members of the Jury you said
that that was 6.30?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
At the time you said that, were you just making up a
time or did you have in your possession information
that did suggest there had been a sighting at 6.30?
PAULINE NELSON
That was the information I had been given from the officers
at Red House Gardens.
MR COWARD
Did you have any reason at the time of talking to the
searching crowd, to doubt the accuracy of that?
PAULINE NELSON
No.
MR COWARD
You knew, as everyone else did, that the girls were
wearing very distinctive clothes - Manchester United
shirts with number 7 Beckham written on the back, didn't
you?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
In those circumstances, what Mr Huntley told you, on
your account of the matter, wasn't particularly significant,
was it?
PAULINE NELSON
I didn't know whether it was or not.
MR COWARD
Because on your account of the matter there had been
sightings, a sighting anyway, of these distinctive girls,
a significant time after it appeared Mr Huntley had
seen them?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
Thank you, Sergeant.
MR HUBBARD
Just before you finished talking to Mr Huntley that
night, you asked him this question, did you not "Where
is your partner now?"
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
Did he give a reply to that?
PAULINE NELSON
I recall that he wanted to know why I wanted to know.
MR HUBBARD
Did he give that in a fairly defensive way ?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
The time by now would be somewhere between four and
five o'clock in the morning?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes, 4, 4.20, something like that.
MR COWARD
I do apologise, and I apologise to my learned friend
as well. I am looking at page 1121----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you ask that.
MR COWARD
----of the witness's statement. and going on to 1122.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes.
MR COWARD
I apologise, I forgot to put some matters on 1122; I
hope it doesn't impact on my learned friend's----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
well, he can go again.
(Further cross-examined by MR COWARD)
MR COWARD
you told the Members of the Jury, sergeant, about the
conversation about him saying who he told about this,
and he said "I told them"?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR COWARD
Could you remind us again of the gesture that he gave?
PAULINE NELSON
a wave towards the crowd.
MR COWARD
was there anything more specific?
PAULINE NELSON
not that I recall at the moment, no.
MR COWARD
at that point you asked him if he had told any other
police officer, and he said he had not?
PAULINE NELSON
Yes.
MR COWARD
you were the first police officer to speak to him.
(re-examined by MR LATHAM)
MR LATHAM
one matter, you have just been asked by my learned friend,
MR HUBBARD , about the conversation, near the end, with
Mr Huntley when you asked where is your partner now
and he replied words to the effect, why?
PAULINE NELSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
you described him being defensive in answer to the question
did he in fact ever answer the question as to where
his partner was?
PAULINE NELSON
no.
MR LATHAM
I have no other re-examination. thank you very much,
sergeant.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
MR COWARD, I am looking at page 1121 which you did not
put to this witness. You spotted that.
MR COWARD
my Lord, I had not asked any questions about 1121.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
forgive me if it sounds rude; that's deliberate, is
it?
MR COWARD
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, thank you. Good. Thank you very much.
(The witness withdrew)
Page 01
02 03
04 05
06 07
08
|
| Contact : bernard.omahoney@bernardomahoney.com |
|
|
| Flowers in Gods Garden |
|
| Paul Pearson |
|
| Rosie Palmer |
|
| Sophie Hook |
|
| Sarah Payne |
|
| Victoria Climbie |
|
| Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman |
- Documents
- Audio
|
| The Yorkshire Ripper |
- Video
|
|
