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17/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 17 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Mr
Justice Moses is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07 08
09
MR KHALIL
Can you give us your name, please?
MICHAEL GEE
Michael Lewis Gee.
MR KHALIL
Mr Gee I want to ask you about events last year. In the
summer last year were you employed as assistant site manager
for Soham Village College?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Was site manager Ian Huntley?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
And were the other assistants Ruth Oddy and Jonathan Butler?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, they were.
MR KHALIL
And was there a casual employee for the summer period
called Peter Jordan? I think at the time you were also
second to that, a lay preacher?
MICHAEL GEE
That's correct.
MR KHALIL
We have heard about the sites. I'm not going to ask you
about the detail of where the buildings are, all right?
I want to ask you firstly about keys to the buildings,
please. So far as keys to interior doors within the site,
how many access doors are there, please, to the different
areas?
MICHAEL GEE
I have ten keys for the Lodeside half of the building.
MR KHALIL
Just keep your voice up?
MICHAEL GEE
Sorry. I had ten keys for the Lodeside half of the building
and some of those keys opened two or three doors.
MR KHALIL
All right. Are the doors alarmed?
MICHAEL GEE
Only exterior doors, actually into the building, (inaudible)
lambs into Lodeside and Beechurst.
MR KHALIL
How many exterior entrance points are there for the principal
buildings?
MICHAEL GEE
Lodeside there would be.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Can we get some sort of agreed evidence on this? I'm sure
we can.
MR KHALIL
That's certainly an alarm. Who had keys for access?
MICHAEL GEE
Myself, Ruth Oddy, and Mr Huntley.
MR KHALIL
Would either the principal or vice principal hold keys?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, I believe the vice principal would have had near
enough a full set of keys and the principal, Mr Gilbert,
would have possibly just had one key to get to Beechurst
where his office was.
MR KHALIL
the persons who were able to use the alarm, who would
they be?
MICHAEL GEE
myself, Mr Huntley, Miss Oddy, principal, the vice-principal
and probably one of the other vice-principals as well.
MR KHALIL
mobile telephone, was a mobile phone provided for work?
MICHAEL GEE
yes, myself and Mr Huntley used to share it.
MR KHALIL
all right. Who would have the phone, whoever was an duty?
MICHAEL GEE
generally throughout the week Mr Huntley would have the
phone, and then we would work, we would be on call alternate
weekends at which point I would then receive the phone.
MR KHALIL
I think at the time your wife was due to give birth last
July time, is that right?
MICHAEL GEE
that's right.
MR KHALIL
was your last weekend 28th July? Was that the last day
you had the mobile phone?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
Sunday, 4th August were you out during the course of the
day and then remained in during the evening and at night?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
when did you first become aware that two children had
gone missing, please?
MICHAEL GEE
about 8 o'clock the Monday morning.
MR KHALIL
where did you go at that time?
MICHAEL GEE
on the Monday.
MR KHALIL
yes?
MICHAEL GEE
I would walk into the main Lodeside doors into the office.
MR KHALIL
you went to work, who did you see there?
MICHAEL GEE
Mr Huntley.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with him?
MICHAEL GEE
I did.
MR KHALIL
what was said?
MICHAEL GEE
well , I just said a general good morning to him and----
MR KHALIL
his response?
MICHAEL GEE
he said "Have you heard the news?"
MR KHALIL
what was his manner or demeanour?
MICHAEL GEE
he didn't seem too concerned, he just, you know, didn't
look particularly happy.
MR KHALIL
but did he tell you what the news was?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
what was it?
MICHAEL GEE
that two girls from Soham had gone missing.
MR KHALIL
did anyone mention names?
MICHAEL GEE
I don't think so, not at the time.
MR KHALIL
all right. Did he say whether he had been helping?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
what did he say?
MICHAEL GEE
that he had been out, I think, most of that night helping
the police, I think they had actually come into the college
building itself.
MR KHALIL
did he tell you how long he had been helping for?
MICHAEL GEE
not an exact amount of hours, but I could hear it had
been a considerable time from what he was saying.
MR KHALIL
did he say this just the once or not?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, the once.
MR KHALIL
You walked in during the rest of the day - he didn't continue
to talk about it? Did he say what time he had finished
helping?
MICHAEL GEE
not that I recall.
MR KHALIL
for the rest of that day, were you involved in any searches
or anything like that or not?
MICHAEL GEE
No, it was on Monday. I was involved in more trying to
look after the press, working out codes and things for
the car park.
MR KHALIL
Did you, as it were, put your own mind to wondering about
where the children could have been?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Did you set about at any time to check the areas which
seemed most likely to you?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Where did you intend to check?
MICHAEL GEE
The Lodeside boiler house.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak to anyone about that?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, I spoke to Mr Huntley about it.
MR KHALIL
What did you say to him?
MICHAEL GEE
I just said has anybody checked upstairs in the Lodeside
boiler house.
MR KHALIL
Did he respond?
MICHAEL GEE
He did, he just said yes its already been checked.
MR KHALIL
Did he say by whom?
MICHAEL GEE
I think he said by himself and the police.
MR KHALIL
Now, were you aware that on the Tuesday, Mr Huntley went
to Grimsby some of the day?
MICHAEL GEE
That's correct.
MR KHALIL
Did you hear a short time on the Wednesday there was a
search of school premises, including the hangar area?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Were you aware of those events occurring?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
So far as your conversation about the boiler room with
Ian Huntley was concerned, can you assist when it was
in relation to those two events I have just described?
MICHAEL GEE
I suppose it may have been late morning, on the Monday.
MR KHALIL
All right. Did you assist in any way with the police search
of the hangar area, on the Wednesday, so the Jury have
it page 11 of the chronology, at the top of the page.
I want to ask you, please, about what was required by
way of assistance in the search of the hangar area, was
that a building that was ordinarily locked?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, it was.
MR KHALIL
Was there an alarm to that building or not?
MICHAEL GEE
No.
MR KHALIL
Did you have a set of keys to the hangar or not?
MICHAEL GEE
Not personally on my own bunch of keys, but there was
a key on the key hook in the office.
MR KHALIL
Can you recall who it was that opened the hangar for the
police on the Wednesday?
MICHAEL GEE
I believe it was myself, I think I went in and got the
key.
MR KHALIL
Where did you get the key from?
MICHAEL GEE
From the key cupboard.
MR KHALIL
Where is the key cupboard in?
MICHAEL GEE
In our office in Lodeside.
MR KHALIL
Did it have a particular place in the office or not?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, it did.
MR KHALIL
I want you to have a look at this photograph, we can see
what is written on the fob. Is that the set of eys of
which you speak, or a different set?
MICHAEL GEE
yes, it looks very similar to those, yes.
MR KHALIL
all right. So you went and obtained them from the office
box?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
then went where?
MICHAEL GEE
straight to the hangar where the police were waiting.
MR KHALIL
did you then start to open the hangar?
MICHAEL GEE
yes, yes.
MR KHALIL
how many locks are there of the hangar that require opening?
MICHAEL GEE
the hangar itself is divided in half by a partition wall.
one door would have a half padlock in it. Once you have
undone that you can then open the door itself and obviously
then move round to the other side of the building to get
into the other half using the same procedure.
MR KHALIL
again, you are dropping your voice a little, it is not
a conversation between the two of us; the Jury all have
to hear what you say as well. So what did you do, please?
MICHAEL GEE
I first went to the CDT site of the hangar and the doors
were opened.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
the doors were opened or open?
MICHAEL GEE
opened, yes, I undid them.
MR KHALIL
by whom?
MICHAEL GEE
myself.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
"I opened the
doors", I got that.
MR KHALIL
others doors?
MICHAEL GEE
I went round to the PE side of the hangar and I undid
the padlock and that door was actually undone, the main
door was unlocked.
MR KHALIL
Let's take this carefully. there was a padlock first,
was there?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
which you undid with the keys?
MICHAEL GEE
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
is there another lock?
MICHAEL GEE
yes, there is actually a lock in the door itself.
MR KHALIL
did that lock require you to open it with a key or not?
MICHAEL GEE
no, the door was undone.
MR KHALIL
ordinarily, would you have anticipated having to use a
key or not?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
I think the police finished their search sometime shortly
before 11 o'clock in the morning?
MICHAEL GEE
that is correct.
MR KHALIL
did you lock up there?
MICHAEL GEE
I did.
MR KHALIL
about the lock that was in fact open, can I ask you about
that did you leave it like that?
MICHAEL GEE
I locked it.
MR KHALIL
what did you do with the keys?
MICHAEL GEE
I took them back to the office in Lodeside.
MR KHALIL
what did you do with them there?
MICHAEL GEE
put them back in the key-holder in the cabinet.
MR KHALIL
right. Having finished your duties there did you see Ian
Huntley?
MICHAEL GEE
I did.
MR KHALIL
where did you see him please?
MICHAEL GEE
just before I had taken the keys back to the office, I
come round the side of the hangar and he said to me "Do
you want to come for a cold drink at my house?" I
wanted to put the keys away, so I went to his house once
I had put the keys away.
MR KHALIL
We know that's 5 College Close. Did you go round there?
MICHAEL GEE
I did.
MR KHALIL
Who did you see?
MICHAEL GEE
Ian and Maxine.
MR KHALIL
Where were each of them?
MICHAEL GEE
Both in the kitchen.
MR KHALIL
Can you help us please as to what each of them was doing
there?
MICHAEL GEE
Mr Huntley made me a cold drink. It was a very hot day
and Miss Carr was scrubbing the kitchen tiles, the wall
tiles.
MR KHALIL
Was anything said about either of them about what she
was doing?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, she was complaining that the tile paint was coming
off because she was scrubbing too hard.
MR KHALIL
Did you notice a hoover in the home?
MICHAEL GEE
I did, it was standing by the kitchen door.
MR KHALIL
Do you recall the colour or style of it?
MICHAEL GEE
It was a Dyson, either green or grey.
MR KHALIL
As you were in the kitchen and Miss Carr was scrubbing
the tiles, can you describe how she was going about this
task for us, please?
MICHAEL GEE
She seemed very busy.
MR KHALIL
Do you recall what she was using?
MICHAEL GEE
I think it was just like a scouring pad.
MR KHALIL
Did she appear to be about to take on any other cleaning?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, she was about to clean the kitchen floor.
MR KHALIL
How was that apparent?
MICHAEL GEE
As me and Ian were about to leave she opened the kitchen
door to the garden to let the dog out because see wanted
to clean the floor.
MR KHALIL
Did you leave after that?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Were you aware that Ian Huntley had a motor vehicle?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
What was that?
MICHAEL GEE
It was a red Fiesta.
MR KHALIL
Have you been in that motor car?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Can you recall roughly how many occasions you have been
in it?
MICHAEL GEE
Maybe only half a dozen times around Easter time to take
the exam papers, the school exam papers, to the Post Office.
MR KHALIL
When you went in that motor car what was its general condition
inside, please?
MICHAEL GEE
It was tidy but there was a few dog hairs often on the
seat covers.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you about the seat covers, please. Where
were there seat covers?
MICHAEL GEE
There was definitely one on the passenger seat and I think
they were on the back seats as well.
MR KHALIL
When you say the passenger, you mean front passenger?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, front passenger.
MR KHALIL
And over the rear, can you recall the driver's seat or
not?
MICHAEL GEE
No.
MR KHALIL
Can you recall what colour the seat covers were?
MICHAEL GEE
grey.
MR KHALIL
where had you seen that vehicle parked ordinarily?
MICHAEL GEE
outside Mr Huntley's house.
MR KHALIL
all right. I can I ask you, please, about Ian Huntley's
attitude and demeanour during the first week once the
children had gone missing. We know and will hear there
was a significant amount of press or media attention in
the locality, wasn't there?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
what appeared to be his attitude towards that during the
first week?
MICHAEL GEE
the first week he was quite nervous about them; he was
trying to keep away from them, hide from - at one point
he even said he was me and I was him, just to avoid the
press.
MR KHALIL
did that attitude remain consistent or did it change?
MICHAEL GEE
it remained consistent the first week and then the second
week it changed.
MR KHALIL
how did it change, please?
MICHAEL GEE
the second week it almost seemed as if he was courting
the press, you know, make himself seen at press conferences
and things.
MR KHALIL
towards the end of that second week did he take some time
off?
MICHAEL GEE
I think the Principal had had a word with him to, okay,
you know, have some time off.
MR KHALIL
the principal being Mr Gilbert?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR KHALIL
were you aware that he took some time off?
MICHAEL GEE
I think the second week he was mostly at work.
MR KHALIL
I'm asking about the end of that second week, what do
you recall of that?
MICHAEL GEE
I know he was at work on the Friday. I'm afraid, apart
from that, I really can't remember.
MR KHALIL
did you have any conversation with Maxine Carr about anywhere
else that they had been?
MR KHALIL
yes, I think at some point they, one afternoon, they had
gone to Huntstanton.
MR KHALIL
what did they say about that?
MICHAEL GEE
it was just a nice warm afternoon and they walked along
the beach.
MR KHALIL
any conversation about police presence or searching?
MICHAEL GEE
around the college building.
MR KHALIL
yes?
MICHAEL GEE
yes, I mean, Mr Huntley said on frequent occasions when
I would come in in the mornings that he had been out again
with the police that night.
MR KHALIL
did you become aware of any hobby or habits he had?
MICHAEL GEE
yes, he was an avid plane spotter.
MR KHALIL
how did you become aware of that?
MICHAEL GEE
even when I began my job at the college I went to his
house one day and he had got quite a few pictures of aircraft,
got a few models of aircraft and, just in conversation,
it came up.
MR KHALIL
did he say where he would go plane spotting?
MICHAEL GEE
yes, Lakenheath air base.
MR KHALIL
when you went into his home on the occasions you did,
apart from seeing Miss Carr cleaning as you describe,
what was the general appearance of the interior?
MICHAEL GEE
The house always appeared to be quite clean and tidy.
MR KHALIL
Were you aware that in the hangar there was a sweeper?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
How was that fuelled?
MICHAEL GEE
Petrol.
MR KHALIL
Anyone ever ask you about that?
MICHAEL GEE
You mean the police.
MR KHALIL
The police or Mr Huntley or Miss Carr?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, the police obviously in my statements asked me was
I aware of the sweeper.
MR KHALIL
Did you have any conversation with Ian Huntley about the
fuel for it?
MICHAEL GEE
Just----
MR KHALIL
Sorry, my Lord?
MICHAEL GEE
Just at some point within those two weeks the girls had
been missing Mr Huntley did ask me where the petrol can
for the sweeper was.
MR KHALIL
Were you able to assist him with that?
MICHAEL GEE
I was not sure myself so I just said "I assume it
is with the sweeper."
MR KHALIL
Are you able to in any way within that fortnight to narrow
the time frame as to that for best information or not?
MICHAEL GEE
It may have been.
MR KHALIL
Please do not guess, but if you are able to?
MICHAEL GEE
It may well have been the first week.
MR KHALIL
Inside the hangar there are a number of yellow plastic
style bins with a metal interior?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Were you aware of that?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
As far as you were concerned, where were they normally
kept in the hangar, which side?
MICHAEL GEE
The PE side.
MR KHALIL
When you went with the police and they searched there,
did you see the bins in the hangar?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, I was standing right next to them.
MR KHALIL
Were they where you would expect to find them or not?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
As far as the bag or bin bags that go into those bins,
did you have anything to do with that?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, on odd occasions I have emptied the bins myself,
yes.
MR KHALIL
Would you replace bags into the bins?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
If you took one out, did you ever tie it off?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR KHALIL
How would you tie off the bin bag?
MICHAEL GEE
Just by taking two of the corners and tying them together
in a bow.
MR KHALIL
Sorry I missed.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Tied them in a bow.
MR KHALIL
Thank you. That's all I ask, thank you very much, Mr Gee.
MR COWARD
Mr Gee, from the morning, there was a massive police press
presence at the college day after day?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR COWARD
Did you get a fair amount of harassment yourself?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, especially when it came to locking up in the late
afternoon.
MR COWARD
It was quite a stressful time for everybody, wasn't it,
that worked at the college?
MICHAEL GEE
it was.
MR COWARD
You could see with your own eyes, from that Monday onwards,
that Mr Huntley was looking more and more ill?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR COWARD
he actually told you, I think, that he had been to see
the doctor, didn't he?
MICHAEL GEE
that's correct .
MR COWARD
the keys that we have on the screen - I do not ask, I
have no need to ask, because it has happened already -
these are, this is the actual bunch that was kept in the
office for anyone who wanted to go into either side of
the hangar?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR COWARD
these keys, you never had a set of hangar keys on your
big bunch, did you?
MICHAEL GEE
no .
MR COWARD
to the best of your knowledge and belief Mr Huntley did
not have hangar keys on his bunch?
MICHAEL GEE
not that I know of.
MR COWARD
So if any of you ever wanted to go into the hangar, you
would go to the cupboard, get this particular bunch of
keys with the green tag on, do the job and then, unless
you forgot, put them back in the office?
MICHAEL GEE
that is correct.
MR COWARD
You mentioned seat covers on the red Ford Fiesta. Were
you at the college when Mr Huntley arrived?
MICHAEL GEE
no.
MR COWARD
you joined after him, when did you start?
MICHAEL GEE
about the middle of March.
MR COWARD
No doubt from the middle of March right up until August
you would be seeing his car regularly?
MICHAEL GEE
yes .
MR COWARD
yes you mentioned you saw the car had seat covers on,
your recollection is that they were grey?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR COWARD
Would I be right in suggesting that those seat covers
came off the seats, round about May of 2002?
MICHAEL GEE
I have no idea.
MR COWARD
You can't say? the petrol can that was used to put petrol
in the sweeper; you recall a conversation where Mr Huntley
asked you if you knew where the red petrol can was?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR COWARD
could I suggest that was Tuesday, 6th August. let me go
through the sequence and let us see if you agree or not.
on Tuesday, 6th August, Mr Huntley told you, didn't he,
that he was going up to Grimsby to collect Maxine?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR COWARD
And he obviously would be going in the red Fiesta?
MICHAEL GEE
yes.
MR COWARD
Wasn't that the occasion before he set out to Grimsby
where he asked you if you knew where the red can was?
Is that ringing any bells?
MICHAEL GEE
none.
MR COWARD
Are you saying, "No, you are wrong" or, "It
may be that, but you can't be sure"?
MICHAEL GEE
I'm afraid can't recall - it may have been that or it
may not have been.
MR COWARD
Do you remember him at any time saying to you that he
seemed to have a small petrol leak in his car?
MICHAEL GEE
No I don't believe he has ever said anything like that
to me.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
A small petrol leak.
MR COWARD
Mr Gee, thank you.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Gee, Wednesday, 7th August, there is a break in searching
the hangars and Ian Huntley suggests you go to his house
for a drink?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
So it follows that as you went into the kitchen Maxine
Carr was already there?
MICHAEL GEE
That is correct.
MR HUBBARD
Seemingly to you going about household chores?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
Doing a daily round, as it were. As you walked in, for
example, she didn't immediately stop and try to conceal
what she was doing?
MICHAEL GEE
No.
MR HUBBARD
In fact it is very much the opposite, isn't it? She drew
attention to what she was doing?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
And she told you, didn't she, that she had been having
problems with these tiles when she cleaned them because
the paint came off as she cleaned them?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes, but I mean, how long that had been going on I have
no idea, it may just have been scrubbing them very hard
that day.
MR HUBBARD
Did you look at the tiles? In due course the jury will
see these tiles, I don't know if you were seeing them,
they were white with hand painted green on them?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
And the green was coming off?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
Do you remember them?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
It was done in a fairly amateurish way, wasn't it, the
painting?
MICHAEL GEE
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
No other questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Thank you very much indeed.
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