| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
17/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 17 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Mr
Justice Moses is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
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HOWARD GILBERT
Yes.
MR KHALIL
When you first met Mr Huntley he was using the surname
Nixon?
HOWARD GILBERT
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Having offered him the full-time post was he also provided
with accommodation at 5 College Close?
HOWARD GILBERT
It was a tied house with the job.
MR KHALIL
And he was to live there with his partner, Maxine Carr?
HOWARD GILBERT
His fiancee at the time.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you please, about Monday, 5th August, last
year. You get into work in the morning sometime between
11 and 11.30?
HOWARD GILBERT
Indeed.
MR KHALIL
Were police already present on the site?
HOWARD GILBERT
There was a number of police outside St Andrew's school
as I approached Soham Village College.
MR KHALIL
Did Ian come into your office?
HOWARD GILBERT
He did shortly after I arrived.
MR KHALIL
Did he speak with you there?
HOWARD GILBERT
He did.
MR KHALIL
What did he tell you, please?
HOWARD GILBERT
The conversation started with me asking him if he was
all right, because of the expression on his face he seemed
very tired, so I said "Are you all right, Ian?"
and he then said to me he had been up most of the night
searching because the two girls had gone missing. I asked
him who they were he said at that point he didn't know.
MR KHALIL
for the rest of the day what did you do?
HOWARD GILBERT
I had an appointment with parents in the town which I
came into work to prepare for. Then I went to see the
families.
MR KHALIL
the following day, the Tuesday, we will hear that he was
to go to Grimsby. Were you aware of his intention to go
there?
HOWARD GILBERT
not at all.
MR KHALIL
were you aware on the Tuesday that he in fact did go to
Grimsby or not?
HOWARD GILBERT
no, I wasn't, I didn't see Mr Huntley until about 4 pm
that day.
MR KHALIL
did he speak with you then?
HOWARD GILBERT
at that point, a police search team had arrived and I
was looking for Mr Huntley so that he could help with
the search , and I saw him walk along the footpath.
MR KHALIL
did he tell you what he had been doing?
HOWARD GILBERT
no, not at all.
MR KHALIL
on the Wednesday, the following day, were you also on
the site?
HOWARD GILBERT
I was.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with Ian Huntley then?
HOWARD GILBERT
along with other caretakers, yes.
MR KHALIL
was there any conversation about the search, his conduct?
HOWARD GILBERT
During the course of the previous night, indeed by Wednesday,
Mr Huntley informed me he had been up again the night
before which, by my recollection, was three nights he
told me he had been searching the college. So that time
I advised him not to help with the search that evening
but to get another caretaker to do that on his behalf.
Because the police were contacting Mr Huntley through
his mobile I advised him to, if he got a message, to point
out Ruth Oddy and for her to do the search should that
be required that night.
MR KHALIL
can I move with you then to the following day, the Thursday,
please. Did you see Ian Huntley again on the Thursday?
HOWARD GILBERT
did----
MR KHALIL
was there any conversation about police searching?
HOWARD GILBERT
there was, he said that he had in fact conducted, helped
the police with the search the night before. I asked him
why he had done that. He said he received a a call about
8.20 and he felt it was only going to be a short search
at that point and that he didn't want to disturb Ruth.
MR KHALIL
was there any conversation about a press conference which
I think was to be organised?
HOWARD GILBERT
Yes, I had a phone call at home; press conferences were
organised every day at that time, which is one of the
the reasons I was in school so often during that period.
in the afternoon I had a phone call from Mr Huntley expressing
that he felt harassed by the press and unable to do his
job and could I use my influence to remove the press conference
from the college.
MR KHALIL
Did he say anything about the Wednesday evening?
HOWARD GILBERT
Not to my recollection.
MR KHALIL
On that following day were you also in the college?
HOWARD GILBERT
I believe so.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak to Ian Huntley on the Friday?
HOWARD GILBERT
Yes, I definitely was in because as a result of the conversation
the afternoon before, I came into speak to the police
about what Mr Huntley had told me he had said he had already
spoken to the police about the matter but wished them
to know.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
About?
HOWARD GILBERT
About the fact he felt harassed by the press so I went
into speak to David (inaudible), fronting the press conference
at the time, and also to meet with the caretakers.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak with Ian Huntley on that Friday?
HOWARD GILBERT
I did on numerous occasions.
MR KHALIL
Was there a press conference that day?
HOWARD GILBERT
There was, prior to the press conference I spoke to David
to let him know the pressure that Mr Huntley was telling
me he was under from the press.
MR KHALIL
At the press conference on the Friday, did Mr Huntley
attend it?
HOWARD GILBERT
He did, he surprised me, there seemed to be a contradiction
between a man----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Do not worry about your surprise.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak with him after it?
HOWARD GILBERT
I did.
MR KHALIL
What was his condition then?
HOWARD GILBERT
Told (inaudible) to remove him from the press conference
and direct him back to work.
MR KHALIL
Afterwards did you speak with him further?
HOWARD GILBERT
We had a meeting at 12 o'clock with all caretakers to
look at the jobs that had to be done. We had a flood in
the school, the school was in some disrepair.
MR KHALIL
Did you give Ian Huntley any advice as to what he should
do?
HOWARD GILBERT
At the end of the meeting when all caretakers had left
Mr Huntley stayed. John and I felt from the conversation
he was unable to do his job at that point so I advised
him to just not be at work, I asked him to vacate the
site.
MR KHALIL
For how long did you tell him to go?
HOWARD GILBERT
For the weekend.
MR KHALIL
Did he accept that from you?
HOWARD GILBERT
He did.
MR KHALIL
I want to move on, please, to the following week, did
the searches in general continue during the course of
the weekend of the following week?
HOWARD GILBERT
I'm not aware of the details.
MR KHALIL
All right. I want to take you to Thursday, 15th August,
please.
MR KHALIL
Was there to be another press conference that day?
HOWARD GILBERT
The 15th August I was informed in the morning that the
press conferences would be removed to Huntingdon.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak to Ian Huntley about that?
HOWARD GILBERT
I informed Mr Huntley of that.
MR KHALIL
What was his attitude to the press conferences moving
from the college to Huntingdon?
HOWARD GILBERT
He was very pleased.
MR KHALIL
Was that decision later reversed?
HOWARD GILBERT
It was. I discovered later that evening at the community
meeting.
MR KHALIL
Were you in the meeting itself?
HOWARD GILBERT
I was.
MR KHALIL
Was Ian Huntley there as well?
HOWARD GILBERT
He was. It was his job to set up the hall for the meeting.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak with him that day after the meeting?
HOWARD GILBERT
I did. I spoke to him prior to the meeting and again at
the end of the meeting.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you please, my Lord 1184, about information
provided during the course of the meeting on that Thursday.
Did a member of public who was attending speak about the
believed whereabouts of the missing girls?
HOWARD GILBERT
There was a woman at the meeting who claimed to have knowledge
of a woman in Austria who knew where the girls were.
MR KHALIL
Was she asked in due course to leave that meeting?
HOWARD GILBERT
At the end of the meeting, she was.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak to Ian Huntley about that lady and her interjection?
HOWARD GILBERT
Indeed. I asked Mr Huntley to escort her off the premises.
MR KHALIL
Can you tell me what he said?
HOWARD GILBERT
He commented he knew of other people claiming to be mediums
and who knew where the girls were. He said one in particular
claimed the girls were in Mildenhall.
MR KHALIL
Thank you very much.
MR COWARD
On that last topic, is that something you knew about before
Mr Huntley told you or was it Mr Huntley telling you that
one of the mediums had said the girls were at Mildenhall?
HOWARD GILBERT
It was Mr Huntley informing me.
MR COWARD
Thank you. Just one general question, Mr Gilbert the Members
of the Jury have been to the college with the school closed
and the place effectively was deserted. What was it like
during that fortnight between the girls going missing
and the eventual arrest of Mr Huntley and Miss Carr?
HOWARD GILBERT
There was significant press presence clearly with satellite
dishes and vans in Lodeside car park and on the green
with fairly regular press briefings being held by the
police, and obviously press reports from the college grounds.
I hesitate to say a number, maybe 50 to 100 press depending
on the day.
MR COWARD
Was it within your knowledge that a whole variety of people
were being approached to talk on radio or to talk on television
about what they felt and what they had seen and what they
knew?
HOWARD GILBERT
Yes, it was.
MR COWARD
And that was incessant?
HOWARD GILBERT
How incessant it was I couldn't comment but certainly
there were a significant number of people being interviewed
by the police.
MR COWARD
and the natural consequences of there being so many press
on the site, plus the conferences being held on site,
did it mean more work for the caretakers?
HOWARD GILBERT
indeed.
MR COWARD
on top of that, you had, at the end of July, quite a serious
flood in the school and you were hoping and expecting
the caretaking staff would get everything ready again
for the start of the new term?
HOWARD GILBERT
the caretaking staff were mainly looking at that point
at routine maintenance work because flood damage, by and
large we are looking at external contractors to solve;
it clearly added to their work load, yes.
MR COWARD
thank you very much.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
(The witness withdrew).
MR KHALIL
detective Constable ANDREA WARREN, please, my Lord, page
1196.
(ANDREA WARREN, sworn)
MR KHALIL
could you give us your name, rank and station, please?
ANDREW WARREN
Yes, I am Detective Constable 328 ANDREA WARREN, Cambridgeshire
police, based at Ely police station.
MR KHALIL
officer, on Monday, 5th August last year, were you at
Ely police station when you became aware that a missing
person inquiry was under way?
ANDREA WARREN
I was, yes.
MR KHALIL
And did that concern two girls missing from the area of
Soham?
ANDREA WARREN
correct.
MR KHALIL
did you speak to Simon (inaudible) and subsequently review
all available material to hand?
ANDREA WARREN
I did, yes.
MR KHALIL
you established the two girls were called Jessica Chapman
and Holly Wells?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
did you then speak to Detective Sergeant Darren Cooper
and he directed you to go to Soham with a view to speaking
to the caretaker of the college?
ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
you were made aware that he was called Ian Huntley and
he lived at 5 College Close in Soham?
ANDREA WARREN
that's right.
MR KHALIL
you were led to believe he may have seen the girls the
previous evening?
ANDREA WARREN
I was, yes.
MR KHALIL
did you go to Soham in company with detective Constable
John Taylor?
ANDREA WARREN
I did, yes.
MR KHALIL
you arrived at Soham about 1 p.m., by then there was a
mobile police station in the college grounds?
ANDREA WARREN
there was indeed.
MR KHALIL
did you try and find the address that you were looking
for, 5 College Close?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
the numbering is slightly out of sequence; you had bit
of trouble?
ANDREA WARREN
that's right.
MR KHALIL
what was the weather like as you were looking around for
the house?
ANDREA WARREN
it was raining very, very heavily.
MR KHALIL
did you find the house?
ANDREA WARREN
we did, yes.
MR KHALIL
did you park outside the address?
ANDREA
WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
was there anything else outside number 5?
ANDREA WARREN
a red Ford Fiesta.
MR KHALIL
was that parked A. Yes, that was.
MR KHALIL
in which direction was it facing?
ANDREA WARREN
Pointing towards the college.
MR KHALIL
Did you have protective clothing with you?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, I put on my reflective jacket, to protect myself
from the weather.
MR KHALIL
Did you get out of your car?
ANDREA WARREN
I did.
MR KHALIL
Go past the Fiesta?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
And towards the front door of number 5?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Were you able to see into the Fiesta as you passed it?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Could you see anything inside it?
ANDREA WARREN
Nothing at all.
MR KHALIL
How did it appear, what was its condition?
ANDREA WARREN
It was very very clean, very tidy.
MR KHALIL
Inside and out?
ANDREA WARREN
It appeared to be, yes.
MR KHALIL
Right. Did you wish to search the vehicle then or not?
ANDREA WARREN
No, we did not.
MR KHALIL
Did you knock on the door?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Did anyone respond at first?
ANDREA WARREN
Not initially, no.
MR KHALIL
Did you knock again?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
And then what happened?
ANDREA WARREN
I then heard movement within the house, heard a dog barking,
and then somebody opened the door.
MR KHALIL
Who was that?
ANDREA WARREN
That was Ian Huntley.
MR KHALIL
Did you ask him if he was the caretaker?
ANDREA WARREN
I did, yes.
MR KHALIL
He agreed he was, did he agree with the description of
his job?
ANDREA WARREN
No he said he was a site manager.
MR KHALIL
Did you tell him why you were there?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes I did.
MR KHALIL
What reason did you give, please?
ANDREA WARREN
I said I had been informed that there was a possibility
he had seen the two missing children on Sunday night outside
his house and I needed to speak to him about that.
MR KHALIL
Did you identify yourself to him?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes. I showed him my warrant card.
MR KHALIL
Did he speak with you there?
ANDREA WARREN
He initially held the dog back, put it in another room
and then invited myself and my colleague into the house.
MR KHALIL
Right. Did you go in?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, we did.
MR KHALIL
Where were you directed?
ANDREA WARREN
We were directed from the front door down to the left
into the living room?
ANDREA WARREN
Was this both you and your colleague?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
All right. Where did Mr Huntley go?
ANDREA WARREN
He went to another room, I think he was just checking
on the dog, then he followed us into the living room.
MR KHALIL
Did he come in and join you? Were you all seated on various
chairs?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
What was his appearance?
ANDREA WARREN
Very smart, very clean. He looked like he had just had
a shower - his hair was damp.
MR KHALIL
Did you notice any marks on him?
ANDREA WARREN
no, not at all.
MR KHALIL
what was his facial appearance, particularly?
ANDREA WARREN
He looked quite pale and clammy.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you about his clothing, please. What was
he wearing?
ANDREA WARREN
he had on beige chino trousers, a shirt and some boots,
brown leather boots.
MR KHALIL
could you help us to a little further with the description
of the boots, please?
ANDREA WARREN
They were brown leather, different coloured laces, they
tied around the ankle and they were very very clean, almost
looked brand new.
MR KHALIL
Can I show you a few, please. One boot and then the pair.
You see those?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
How do those compare with the ones you saw him wearing?
ANDREA WARREN
They are very similar to the ones I saw.
MR KHALIL
Do you notice any differences or not?
ANDREA WARREN
The laces, I thought laces were covered but----
MR KHALIL
What was his manner as he sat in the living room?
ANDREA WARREN
Very calm, very relaxed.
MR KHALIL
Did you explain what you wished to speak about?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
What did you say to him?
ANDREA WARREN
I told him I was there in relation to what he had said
to a police officer earlier on that morning, about he
may have seen the two children outside his house and it
is about that that I needed to take a statement from him,
if it was a definite sighting.
MR KHALIL
Did he respond in any way to the request to take a statement?
ANDREA WARREN
He asked me why did I need to take a statement, was he
a suspect.
MR KHALIL
What did you respond?
ANDREA WARREN
I said no, indeed not, we were asking to speak to everybody
who may have seen the girls last night.
MR KHALIL
Did he reply to that?
ANDREA WARREN
He said will you be taking a statement from everybody
then, and are they all suspects?
MR KHALIL
What did you say?
ANDREA WARREN
I said "No that's not the case at all."
MR KHALIL
Did he agree he would be prepared to make a statement?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he did.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you about the home, did you ask him about
the house at all?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes , I asked if he would consent to having a quick look
round his house to ascertain if the girls were not present
in his house.
MR KHALIL
What did he reply to that?
ANDREA WARREN
His said yes, that was fine.
MR KHALIL
Did you then begin to ask him about the events of 4th
and 5th August?
ANDREA WARREN
I did, yes.
MR KHALIL
In broad terms, can you explain how this next period went,
were you asking questions and him answering, or did he
simply give you an account?
ANDREA WARREN
I asked him to recall the events of Sunday for me, which
he did, and then he ran me through the events of the day.
MR KHALIL
All right. Did you, in due course- was a statement to
be written down and signed by him?
ANDREA WARREN
That's correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you, please, about what he told you his
account was for that Sunday, can you help us please?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he said that he had been at home all day, during
the course of the afternoon the dog had got out of the
house and run away, so he had to go and search for the
dog.
MR KHALIL
Take it steadily.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Its fine.
MR KHALIL
Did he describe the weather?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he said it was raining.
MR KHALIL
Did he say anything about the condition of the dog?
ANDREA WARREN
When the dog eventually came back, when he had managed
to find the dog, the dog was very dirty and he needed
to bath it.
MR KHALIL
Did he say whether it was a male or female animal?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes. It was female. It had got out and he thought it was
perhaps on heat.
MR KHALIL
Go on please?
ANDREA WARREN
He brought the dog into the house and bathed it and was
outside towel drying the dog when he was aware of the
two children.
MR KHALIL
just pause there did he tell you where it was he bathed
the dog?
ANDREA WARREN
no, just said in the bathroom.
MR KHALIL
in the bathroom?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
so he bathed the dog in the bathroom, then you said he
said he took it outside?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
He was towelling it dry?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
did he say where he was outside as he was towelling it
dry?
ANDREA WARREN
Just on the grass area at the front (inaudible) the two
girls said they were very sorry. she didn't get the job
and to him to pass that message on to Maxine and they
left.
MR KHALIL
did he indicate which direction they had gone?
ANDREA WARREN
they walked towards the College Road area.
MR KHALIL
did he describe the girls?
ANDREA WARREN
he described them as having a United football shirt with
"Beckham" on the back.
MR KHALIL
did he describe them any further than that, height or
anything like that?
ANDREA WARREN
he said that one had dark hair, one had fair hair, both
wearing tracksuit bottoms and he put them at about ten
years of age.
MR KHALIL
now, did you ask him whether anyone else had seen the
girls, or he had seen anyone else other than the girls?
ANDREA WARREN
he couldn't recall if anybody had seen him talking to
the girls.
MR KHALIL
did he comment as to whether he had seen them?
ANDREA WARREN
Again he said not.
MR KHALIL
was that in response to a question or did he volunteer
that?
ANDREA WARREN
I asked that question did you see the girls after they
walked away from you and he said not.
MR KHALIL
what was his manner or demeanour then?
ANDREA WARREN
a little bit agitated.
MR KHALIL
how did that manifest itself?
ANDREA WARREN
his hands had got ever so clammy and he slid them down
the side of the chair.
MR KHALIL
can you help what sort of time it was he had seen the
girl?
ANDREA WARREN
he put the timing at 6.30.
MR KHALIL
the girls then had left in the direction of College Road
did he say what he did thereafter?
ANDREA WARREN
He watched TV for the rest of the evening.
MR KHALIL
so far we have spoken only of him and what he had been
doing was there any conversation about anyone else?
ANDREA WARREN
he indicated his partner was present in the house watching
television with him.
MR KHALIL
how did he indicate that?
ANDREA WARREN
he just kept saying, "We watched television, we heard
noises outside later on in the evening", so I drew
the conclusion that his partner had been there.
MR KHALIL
that was later on, how did the girls arriving and him
speaking with them outside, any indication of whether
his car was present?
ANDREA WARREN
not to my knowledge.
MR KHALIL
Did you ask as to whether anyone else visited or stayed
that night?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
What did he reply?
ANDREA WARREN
No, they did not.
MR KHALIL
I take it in due course you did in fact take the formal
statement from him. Whilst doing that, was there any conversation
about where Miss Carr might be?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, I asked where Miss Carr was then on Monday lunchtime.
MR KHALIL
The time you were actually taking the statement?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Did he reply?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he said "She was out, after a child minding
job, as she had not got the job at the school she had
gone to see somebody that was in child minding in the
Soham area."
MR KHALIL
So in the Soham area looking for a job?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
What was his manner or demeanour as he was telling you
this?
ANDREA WARREN
It was a little bit off-hand, a little bit nonchalant
about it; he didn't seem to know exactly where she was.
MR KHALIL
Did he go on to describe the remainder of the Sunday and
Monday?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he did.
MR KHALIL
Can you help us as to how he continued, please?
ANDREA WARREN
About 11.30 he said he took the dog out for a a walk.
MR KHALIL
11.30?
ANDREA WARREN
Sunday night.
MR KHALIL
P.M. Sunday night,?
ANDREA WARREN
And he was aware of the people in college grounds.
MR KHALIL
Yes?
ANDREA WARREN
He spoke to somebody, there are two children gone missing,
that's what we are looking for, he then went back into
the house and he said he heard some vehicles.
MR KHALIL
Can you pause there? He spoke to a person, was it or more
than one person?
ANDREA WARREN
He said "I spoke to somebody who informed me there
was two missing children."
MR KHALIL
Did he give any indication as to whether he made a connection
between this conversation and the children he had seen?
ANDREA WARREN
No, not at all. He said "I didn't connect the two
straight away."
MR KHALIL
Go on please, he returned home and heard vehicles?
ANDREA WARREN
He went home and about midnight he heard vehicle movement,
went back outside and spoke to other people and other
people had said the description of the children.
MR KHALIL
What description?
ANDREA WARREN
The red Manchester United shirts with Beckham on the back.
He indicated to this person perhaps he had seen them earlier
on that night and that person advised him he should talk
to the police.
MR KHALIL
Did he say whether he had told the police?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he then sought out a police officer, approached them
and told them perhaps he had seen them earlier that night.
MR KHALIL
We know there was a significant search of the college
and the grounds that night, did he tell you what he'd
done during that time?
ANDREA WARREN
he said he returned to the house and got keys for everywhere
in the school and accompanied a police officer to search
the school grounds.
MR KHALIL
can you help us a little further. He spoke to some member
of the public about the sighting of the children?
ANDREA WARREN
correct.
MR KHALIL
can you help us please as to who it was he was saying
had decided to tell the police what of what he was aware?
ANDREA WARREN
he didn't say who he had he spoken to.
MR KHALIL
Who's decision was it he should speak to the police?
ANDREA WARREN
the person who he had been speaking to.
MR KHALIL
did he say whether he complied with that?
ANDREA WARREN
yes, he did.
MR KHALIL
at the end of that period of conversation with him, had
the statement now been written down?
ANDREA WARREN
no.
MR KHALIL
how much more time passed before the statement was written
down?
ANDREA WARREN
not too much longer after that.
MR KHALIL
all right, having written it down was it then read over
to him?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
I think it was in handwriting rather than typed; were
you (inaudible) with the writing?
ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
going through it, were any amendments made?
ANDREA WARREN
he wanted to amend the time he had seen the children.
MR KHALIL
the time?
ANDREA WARREN
he had seen the children.
MR KHALIL
was that amended?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
do you recall what the amendment was?
ANDREA WARREN
I think he wanted to put it at 6.15.
MR KHALIL
I now want to please deal with the statement itself. A
typed copy will be provided to the members of the jury;
they have this in their grey folder behind tab 1. Just
confirm, this is a typed copy of the statement written
down whilst at the home of Ian Huntley?
ANDREA WARREN
yes, that's correct.
MR KHALIL
we can see it is dated 5th August and signed by him about
three inches down on the front page, then at the foot
of the pages as well, and also signed by you?
ANDREA WARREN
yes, that's correct.
MR KHALIL
there is a declaration there, reading this statement,
consisting of two pages each, signed ... " ... true
to the best of my knowledge and belief, and I make it
knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be
liable to prosecution if I willfully state anything I
know to be false or do not believe to be true". Then
do we see his signature immediately under that?
ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
was this declaration drawn to his attention at the time?
ANDREA WARREN
yes, that was read out to him.
MR KHALIL
My Lord would it read follows "I am the above named
person, Ian Huntley, and reside at the address given overleaf.
I am employed by Soham Village College and I'm site officer.
I have a house on the grounds of the college. I am in
charge of the security and maintenance for the college.
On Sunday, 4th August 2002 I was standing at the front
of my house brushing my dog and I saw two girls from the
area of the college. It was about 6pm, they approached
me and one of them asked me about my partner, Maxine Carr.
Maxine had worked at St Andrew's school until recently.
However, she had had to reapply for her post and had not
been given the job.
Maxine was very upset about this. I did not know either
of the girls but they obviously knew where Maxine lived.
As I stood outside they obviously wanted to speak to me.
One of the girls just asked how Miss Carr was. I told
her that she was not very happy, that she had not been
given the job. The girls said they were sorry and walked
off in the direction of College Road. I did not see them
again.
I would describe them as follows. Both were wearing a
MAN U top with Beckham on the back, they both looked about
nine or ten years of age. One had shorter length blonde
hair, the other had shorter dark hair. I would say they
were both about 4 foot 9 inches tall, both slim build.
About 11 o'clock that night, I was out walking my dog
near to the sports hall and I saw three males. These males
asked me if I had seen two girls, kids, I told them that
I had not.
They did not give me any more detail about the kids so
I assumed I could not be of any further use. At about
midnight I saw some vehicle movement outside so I went
over there and spoke to a female police officer who asked
me to get my keys and show her around the building. I
now knew that the police were looking for two girls, but
never associated them with the two I had seen earlier.
This happened sometime later, when I spoke to some other
people who were out looking for the girls.
It was only when I heard that two girls were wearing Man
United shirts that I connected the fact I may have seen
the two girls earlier. When I had an opportunity I told
the police that I may have seen the two girls they were
looking for. Before yesterday I had not seen either of
these girls and nor have I seen them since they walked
away from me at approximately 6 p.m.
The weather at 6 p.m. was cloudy and overcast but still
warm. Prior to seeing the two girls I spent between 4
p. p.m. and 6 p.m. at home and before that 3.15 p.m. to
4 p.m. out looking for my dog who had run away. During
Sunday morning I was at home." That was all that
was placed in the formal statement, is that correct?
ANDREA WARREN
That is correct.
MR KHALIL
And then signed by Mr Ian Huntley and yourself?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
I'm sure the Jury are aware, it was explained earlier,
the four pages described are a handwritten statement taken.
Whilst that statement was being taken, was your colleague
also speaking to Ian Huntley?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he was.
MR KHALIL
Were there items around the room spoken about?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, there were some pictures on the walls of aeroplanes
and they were speaking about that.
MR KHALIL
To whom was Ian Huntley's attention principally played?
ANDREA WARREN
He was talking to my colleague Taylor while I was writing
and when I needed to ask a question to confirm something,
I interrupted the conversation to draw him back to myself.
MR KHALIL
Did you discuss his past at all?
ANDREA WARREN
Sorry.
MR KHALIL
Did you discuss his past, where he came from?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he mentioned he came from Grimsby.
MR KHALIL
That statement having concluded, did you remind him you
had asked him to search the house?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
He had already given his consent, I think?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
On being reminded of that request, what was his attitude?
ANDREA WARREN
He got a little bit agitated, as though he had perhaps
forgotten.
MR KHALIL
Did he agree you could?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Did you then start to search through the house?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
Did you, as far as you can recall, go and have a look
in all the rooms?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
Did you notice a garden?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Was there anything out there?
ANDREA
WARREN
A washing line.
MR KHALIL
Anything on the washing line?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, there were some items on the washing line.
MR KHALIL
You told us what the weather was like when you arrived,
what was it like now?
ANDREA WARREN
Still pouring with rain.
MR KHALIL
Any comment made about the things on the line?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes , I asked him if he wanted to go and get the washing
in and he replied he didn't.
MR KHALIL
In broad terms as you began the search and continued the
search around the house, what was his manner?
ANDREA WARREN
He was very relaxed.
MR KHALIL
Did he remain so throughout the search?
ANDREA WARREN
A couple of times he got a little bit agitated with me.
MR KHALIL
Any particular rooms?
ANDREA WARREN
The room he initially put the dog in.
MR KHALIL
Which was that?
ANDREA WARREN
That was downstairs, just to the right of the front door.
MR KHALIL
An office and then a bathroom and the kitchen. Can you
recall?
ANDREA WARREN
it was the bathroom.
MR KHALIL
did he allow you to look in there?
ANDREA WARREN
yes, he did.
MR KHALIL
was there anywhere else you say his attitude changed?
ANDREA WARREN
there was a cupboard underneath the stairs.
MR KHALIL
did you ask to look in there?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, I did I asked him what was in there.
MR KHALIL
did he reply?
ANDREA WARREN
He said nothing.
MR KHALIL
did you press further?
ANDREA WARREN
no, I just went and opened to look in the door.
MR KHALIL
did you see anything in there?
ANDREA WARREN
there was a pile of blankets.
MR KHALIL
did you interfere with those at all?
ANDREA WARREN
I stood on the blankets, prodding with my foot.
MR KHALIL
you were looking for children, of course?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR KHALIL
no children there?
ANDREA WARREN
no.
MR KHALIL
Did you ask whether he had a garage?
ANDREA WARREN
His response?
ANDREA WARREN
he did, but he didn't have keys for it, he had never used
it.
MR KHALIL
I think you did in fact go out to the garage?
ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
and he tried, did he - it didn't open?
ANDREA WARREN
no.
MR KHALIL
He then returned to get a screwdriver and forced the lock
open?
ANDREA WARREN
he did, yes.
MR KHALIL
although there were items there, nothing that caught your
attention?
ANDREA WARREN
no.
MR KHALIL
inside the home can you help us, in your terms, as to
what it appeared to be like - a tidy home, a messy home?
ANDREA WARREN
downstairs it was very, very clean. Upstairs was very
sparse. the main bedroom was very messy and in contrast
with the downstairs.
MR KHALIL
you say downstairs was very clean? Just its appearance
or anything else?
ANDREA WARREN
No, when I initially walked into the house I got a great
smell of lemon cleaning fluid.
MR KHALIL
had you ever been to that property before?
ANDREA WARREN
never.
MR KHALIL
did you return subsequently?
ANDREA WARREN
no, never been back.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you, please, about the bathroom which we
know to be upstairs. Did you go into that room
ANDREA WARREN
Yes , I did.
MR KHALIL
was there any conversation about that room?
ANDREA WARREN
he mentioned that's where he said he had bathed the dog
and the floor had got very wet.
MR KHALIL
can you recall what time it was when you left his home?
ANDREA WARREN
about 2.30.
MR KHALIL
did you see anything in the bathroom?
ANDREA WARREN
nothing, it was very sparse.
MR KHALIL
could you see any signs of water or wet in there?
ANDREA WARREN
no, not at all.
MR KHALIL
there were items out on the line, the washing line; can
you recall what they were?
ANDREA WARREN
no, I can't. I got the impression that there was some
form of bed spread or something like that though I can't
be 100 % certain.
MR KHALIL
All right. When in the bathroom did you note any items
one might see in a bathroom- mats, towels, things like
that?
ANDREA WARREN
No, the floor was bare.
MR KHALIL
Thank you very much, if you wait, there maybe further
questions.
MR COWARD
My Lord I wonder if it would be possible for my client
to have a short break.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Can we do it after this witness? Let's do it after the
witness. He can go down if he wants.
MR COWARD
Officer, can I understand the sequence of events so far
as your evidence is concerned? On the 5th August you are
asked to go and see Mr Huntley. You do go and see him,
you take a statement in writing from him, which we have
in our grey file and we have just looked at it. Am I right
in saying that it was not until the 19th August that you
were first asked to fill in any further things you remembered
about the visits to the house?
ANDREA WARREN
That's correct.
MR COWARD
And a fortnight later you were doing your best to try
to recollect everything that had happened from the moment
you met Mr Huntley to the moment you left him?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, that's correct.
MR COWARD
I think you accept that in trying that exercise of recollecting
everything you got some matters significantly wrong. Can
I take one? You were of the memory, weren't you, that
there was a bathroom downstairs with a bath?
ANDREA WARREN
I was initially, yes .
MR COWARD
Now, we know that is wrong, we have seen the house, we
have seen photographs of the house. When did you know
there wasn't a bath downstairs?
ANDREA WARREN
Whilst the officer who was with me was doing my interview,
they went round, I tried to sit back and take myself in
the house again, into every room and that's when I recalled
there was only one bath within the house and that was
upstairs.
MR COWARD
So it is not a case of anyone that had been speaking to
you or speaking to someone else, someone else saying she
has obviously got that wrong?
ANDREA WARREN
Not at all.
MR COWARD
Would you accept, officer, that when you are asked to
recollect something obviously important a fortnight later,
even though you are trying to do your best, it is possible
to get things in the wrong sequence in which you were
told?
ANDREA WARREN
My statement is a reflection of what happened that day.
MR COWARD
Your statement is a reflection of what you think you remember
happened that day? DREA WARREN That is how I remember
it from that day.
MR COWARD
that's how you remember it. I want to follow up one example
of that through three you have told the Members of the
Jury that Mr Huntley told you that before he saw the girls
the dog had come home, he had found the dog; she was in
a filthy condition, he had bathed the dog - you said initially
in the downstairs bath - and after bathing her, a lot
of water got on to the downstairs bathroom floor. He took
her outside to groom her and dry her outside. Did Mr Huntley
at any time say anything to you about something happening
to the bath?
ANDREA WARREN
the bath.
MR COWARD
yes?
ANDREA WARREN
not that I recall.
MR COWARD
did Mr Huntley at any time say anything to you about the
bath having cracked?
ANDREA WARREN
I think he said that to my colleague whilst they were
having a conversation, but I was writing at the time.
MR COWARD
but you are a few feet away from him?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, but I'm busy concentrating on what I need to write.
MR COWARD
what were you writing at the time?
ANDREA WARREN
I was writing a statement at the time.
MR COWARD
did you notice anything to do with the light fittings
downstairs when you were having the search?
ANDREA WARREN
in the dining room the light fittings were not on the
ceiling.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
were not - sorry?
ANDREA WARREN
not on the ceiling.
MR COWARD
not in its usual place in the ceiling?
ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley explained, I suggest, to the two of you that
he had been trying to bath Sadie in the bath upstairs
and his foot had gone against the side of the bath and
cracked it?
ANDREA WARREN
I don't recall that conversation.
MR COWARD
water had run out of the bath, down the hole through the
plaster on to the light fitting and that's why, as he
explained, the light fitting was not in position?
ANDREA WARREN
I never heard that conversation.
MR COWARD
he told you, didn't he, that when he saw the girls, the
first time he was aware of the girls was when he was outside
brushing his dog?
ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.
MR COWARD
brushing?
ANDREA WARREN
he was either brushing it or towel-drying it.
MR COWARD
you have told the Members of the Jury "drying",
the Members of the Jury have just read the statement taken
from Mr Huntley and that says "brushing", doesn't
it?
ANDREA WARREN
brushing, grooming.
MR COWARD
you see, officer, what I am suggesting is that you have
got the sequence of events in a muddle and that what Mr
Huntley told you was she came home, she was dirty, and
he had her outside, was brushing her to get as much of
the dirt and burrs and things off as he could, when the
girls arrived?
ANDREA WARREN
no, that's not correct.
MR COWARD
And that after the girls had gone he told you he then
took Sadie inside and bathed her and the bath got cracked
and the water ran downstairs and he had to take the light
fitting?
ANDREA WARREN
No that's not how I recall it at all.
MR COWARD
How do you recall the time he said he saw the girls when
you spoke with him before the written statement was taken?
ANDREA WARREN
Excuse me.
MR COWARD
What time did he say to you he saw the girls before you
began taking the written statement?
ANDREA WARREN
He said it was between 6 and 6.30.
MR COWARD
This is the third version , I suggest, now officer. Initially
you told the Members of the Jury he put the time at 6
o'clock?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, that's what I wrote in the statement.
MR COWARD
You said that after you had taken the statement from him
he wanted to amend the time he had seen the children and
I think it was altered to 6.15?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, he wanted to put it a little bit earlier.
MR COWARD
We have had the statement read out, haven't we, and what
does the statement say about 6 o'clock?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR COWARD
Can you explain, officer, how your evidence has altered
so much on this top page. I don't think it is right. He
puts the time as a very approximate initially, and then
he wants to amend it to a more definite answer.
Transcript edited by Sky News
MR COWARD
Leaving aside the witness statement, were you making any
notes as you were going along?
ANDREA WARREN
No, I don't make notes prior to a statement.
MR COWARD
So you are relying entirely on your memory?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR COWARD
Obviously not your memory now because you made the statement
on 19th August, but your memory of the events 14 days
before.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Do you mind if I ask a question you did not make notes
as he is talking so when it comes to writing out his statement
you have notes of what he has actually said?
ANDREA WARREN
No, no didn't.
MR COWARD
You said when you first saw Mr Huntley he looked quite
smart and you said there were no marks on him?
ANDREA WARREN
That's correct.
MR COWARD
Can I put that another way, there was no visible sign
of injury?
ANDREA WARREN
Correct.
MR COWARD
Obviously you were looking at his face for a substantial
period of time?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR COWARD
And remind us this is about one o'clock when you got to
the house?
ANDREA WARREN
When we arrived, yes.
MR COWARD
on the 5th. when he was recounting the events of the early
hours of the 5th August, as is clear from the witness
statement you took, there are really three stages, aren't
there? he finds some people at the college, first of all,
in round figures, at 11 o'clock; he sees people there
and meets a police officer, a woman police officer?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR COWARD
then a third stage where other people later are searching
and he told you that it was at that stage that someone
mentioned Manchester United shirts?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, when he went back out about midnight.
MR COWARD
and he made the connection then?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR COWARD
can I check your memory again, officer. You have obviously
seen the dog, the Alsatian?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR COWARD
did anything strike you as you searched the house?
ANDREA WARREN
just the----
MR COWARD
of the animal kingdom?
ANDREA WARREN
yes, there was some pets in a cage in the one of the bedrooms
upstairs.
MR COWARD
they were what?
ANDREA WARREN
I don't know.
MR COWARD
(inaudible)?
ANDREA WARREN
vermin, rats, gerbils.
MR COWARD
do you in your own mind see gerbils and rats as a different
category or are they all vermin to you?
ANDREA WARREN
I didn't actually see the animals, they were under sawdust;
I didn't actually see the animals but I did comment to
my colleague what they were, but I don't recall.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
officer, there is a distinction between something being
clean and something being tidy, yes?
MR HUBBARD
I don't think in your statement you ever noted the kitchen
was was very, very clean?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes, it was very clean.
MR HUBBARD
will you take it from me at the moment that as far as
I can see that is not in your statement what you said
in your statement was the kitchen, like all of the downstairs,
was immaculately tidy?
ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.
MR HUBBARD
but no reference in the statement to the kitchen being
very clean?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
give me a page number.
MR HUBBARD
1201.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
I may have got it wrong, but I don't think so?
ANDREA WARREN
I mentioned in the statement I could smell the strong
smell of cleaning fluid.
MR HUBBARD
that's right. you did. You said, "As I entered ...
I remember catching a strong smell of lemon, it reminded
me of the types of cleaning products often used in bathrooms
and kitchens." Right?
ANDREA WARREN
correct.
MR HUBBARD
as I stood in the hall the smell came from that area,
ie the bathroom or the kitchen?
ANDREA WARREN
correct.
MR HUBBARD
you talked in your statement, I suggest, about the bathroom
seeming very clean and tidy?
ANDREA WARREN
yes.
MR HUBBARD
whereas the kitchen was simply immaculately tidy?
ANDREA WARREN
the whole of the downstairs was immaculately clean and
tidy.
MR HUBBARD
I don't suppose either of you went along putting your
finger along the sides of the units to see if there was
dust there?
ANDREA WARREN
It looked immaculately clean.
MR HUBBARD
Did you do that?
ANDREA WARREN
No I didn't.
MR HUBBARD
You didn't. You, I am not being critical, but you simply
glanced around and it seemed to you always clean and tidy?
ANDREA WARREN
Correct.
MR HUBBARD
And that is as far as it goes?
ANDREA WARREN
It smelt clean and looked clean.
MR HUBBARD
It smelt clean but you never tested to see whether for
example there were crumbs on the top of a unit or underneath
a unit or anything like that?
ANDREA WARREN
Her was no crumbs on top of the unit, it was clean.
MR HUBBARD
Did you check to see underneath?
ANDREA WARREN
No I did not.
MR HUBBARD
How do you know?
ANDREA WARREN
It looked clean and smelt clean.
MR HUBBARD
There were dog bowls on the kitchen floor, weren't there?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
The only other thing I want to ask you about, you asked
Mr Huntley where Maxine Carr was?
ANDREA WARREN
I did, yes.
MR HUBBARD
When you were taking his statement, you noted when he
answered you he seemed very dismissive and uncaring in
relation to Maxine?
ANDREA WARREN
That is correct.
MR COWARD
My Lord I forgot to put one matter to this witness.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Fine.
MR COWARD
Officer, the only bathroom, upstairs there was in fact
a bath mat in the bathroom, wasn't there?
ANDREA WARREN
I don't recall.
MR COWARD
You have no memory of seeing a bath mat?
ANDREA WARREN
No.
MR COWARD
Thank you officer.
MR KHALIL
You have been asked about your recollection of whether
there was a bath upstairs or downstairs and you made your
statement on 19th August last year?
ANDREA WARREN
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Before concluding the statement, had you recalled whether
the bath was upstairs or downstairs?
ANDREA WARREN
I had.
MR KHALIL
And where was it?
ANDREA WARREN
Upstairs.
MR KHALIL
Thank you very much.
(the witness withdrew).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
We are nearly at one o'clock but you want a break.?
MR COWARD
My client does.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Very well. 25 past 12.
{short adjournment}
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