17/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 17 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Mr
Justice Moses is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
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(JONATHAN TAYLOR, sworn)
(Examined by MR KHALIL )
MR
KHALIL
Name rank and station, please?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Jonathan Maxwell Taylor, detective constable stationed
at Parkside police station. On Monday, 5th August last
year, did you become aware that two girls Jessica Chapman
and Holly Wells were reported missing from Soham village?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I did, yes.
MR KHALIL
Did you go with detective constable Andrea Warren to the
address 5 College Road in Soham?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
when you arrived there was it raining heavily?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
it was.
MR KHALIL
and did you eventually find the address and park outside?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
was there another car parked outside as well?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
there was.
MR KHALIL
do you recall what type of car?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
yes, a red Ford Fiesta.
MR KHALIL
were you able to look into it?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
there was nothing stopping me looking into it, but I didn't
particularly look into it.
MR KHALIL
Can you describe its appearance?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
it appeared clean and tidy.
MR KHALIL
can you recall which way it was facing or not?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no, I can't.
MR KHALIL
the time I think now, one o'clock in the afternoon, was
the front door knocked and eventually Ian Huntley arrived?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
your fellow officer introduced herself and asked if she
could speak with him?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
he agreed to that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
did she run to the police car?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
why was that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I think she wanted to get her bag.
MR
KHALIL
when she returned to the police vehicle did you stay with
her or remain at the front door?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Remained at the front door.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with Mr Huntley?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Yes.
MR KHALIL
what was said?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Mr Huntley told me about a dirty red Ford Fiesta which
he had seen in the area the previous day.
MR
KHALIL
did he say where he had seen it?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
in the car park, the area at the front of the Lodeside
part of the college.
MR KHALIL
did he say how many people had been in it?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
he thought there was one man in it.
MR
KHALIL
did he say what the vehicle had been doing when he saw
it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, he said it was driving round slowly, not like boy
racers.
MR KHALIL
did he give you any time for this sighting?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no, in the afternoon.
MR KHALIL
during that conversation, was your colleague still at
the police station?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
she was at the police vehicle and returning from it.
MR KHALIL
all right. Upon returning did you all then go into 5 College
Close?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Was there a lengthy conversation about the movements and
whereabouts of Mr Huntley the previous day?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
at the end of which he was read a written statement which
he subsequently signed?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
can I ask you, please, was there any conversation about
sleep or whether he had been sleeping previously?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes, there was.
MR KHALIL
what was that about?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I was surprised when he answered the door that he was
dressed as I was aware from papers that I had read earlier
that he had been up and speaking to a policeman at 3.30
in the morning.
MR KHALIL
Yes?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
He looked red and tired around the eyes, pale and drawn,
I asked him if he had had a good sleep, he replied that
he had not been able to sleep at all.
MR
KHALIL
Right. Did you then hear the account he gave as to his
movements the previous day?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Yes, that's correct.
MR KHALIL
And seeing two girls who then left his company?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Do you recall whether or in what direction it was he indicated
that they had gone once they had left?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Yes, he indicated that they had gone from his house over
the small bridge and up College Road.
MR
KHALIL
Right?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
A short distance.
MR KHALIL
Did he tell you about helping the police searching?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, he did.
MR KHALIL
Did he speak about any particular officer with whom he
had had dealings?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, he mentioned a WPC called Anna who was a dog handler
and from this I assumed he meant Annmarie Burton.
MR KHALIL
What had did he say he had done with her?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
He said he had gone out searching with her and opened
all the doors to the college to allow her access.
MR KHALIL
Whilst in his home, did you notice things about the walls?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
About the walls?.
MR KHALIL
Yes?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, in the lounge of the house I noticed that there was
probably two pictures of aeroplanes.
MR
KHALIL
Did you ask him about those?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
I did, in an attempt to make conversation.
MR
KHALIL
What was his attitude?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
His attitude, well his answer was he wasn't really interested
in aeroplanes, he had been given these pictures by his
father and put them a up out of respect to him.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Didn't hear- asked to put them up by his----?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
He had been given the pictures by his father.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Father. Sorry, yes. Thank you.
MR KHALIL
When describing his time out searching, did he speak about
meeting members of the public?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
I think he mentioned he had met somebody.
MR
KHALIL
Did he indicate when it was that he made any sort of connection
between the missing girls and the ones who he said he
had seen?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Well, from what I gather that he was trying to say was
that it was more or less at the time he had gone to a
policeman and put together the fact that he had seen two
girls earlier and he had learned somehow that they were
wearing Manchester United shirts.
MR
KHALIL
We know he was asked if he would consent to a search of
the home?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
he agreed to that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
correct.
MR KHALIL
did you go into the area of the dining room?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
did you make any comment about that?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Mr Huntley said, "Excuse the dining room we have
had a flood."
MR KHALIL
when you looked in the room, were there any indications
that that may have been so?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
the light fitting, which I think was probably three spotlights
all in one base, was hanging down from the ceiling supported
only by the cable which supplied the electricity to it.
MR KHALIL
any signs of water?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
there appeared to be some wet patches,, some wet marks
on the walls.
MR KHALIL
did he say when the flood had been?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
no.
MR KHALIL
I think he agreed that he had a garage?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
which he allowed you to enter in due course?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR KHALIL
and at the end of your time there, did you in fact provide
him with any sort of form in relation to the search of
his house?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no I didn't.
MR KHALIL
should you have done?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I should have done, yes.
MR KHALIL
were you subsequently to remember that?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
I did, yes.
MR KHALIL
did you return to speak with him about that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I did on the following Wednesday.
MR
KHALIL
right. Was that the Wednesday of the same week?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes, Wednesday of the same week.
MR
KHALIL
when you returned, did you see him at the same house?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I did, yes. when I got there I was with another officer
and it appeared that a press conference had just broken
up.
MR KHALIL
all right. Were you able to speak with him?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I did , I called him over.
MR KHALIL
where were the two of you now?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
we were in the car parking area adjacent to the front
of the house; not the front of the house but to one side
of the house.
MR KHALIL
so you spoke with him?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
did, yes.
MR KHALIL
what did he say, please?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I explained the reason that I wanted him, in other words,
to sign this consent-to-search form and to give him a
copy of it.
MR KHALIL
did you do that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
we did, yes.
MR KHALIL
did you speak further or did he speak further?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
he spoke further to me.
MR KHALIL
what about?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
he said "you think I have done it, I was the last
person to see them or to speak to them." Then he
started to cry.
MR KHALIL
previously, when you had been out of the company of your
fellow officer on Monday he told you about motor car?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
a muddy or dirty red Fiesta?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Correct.
MR KHALIL
Was there any further conversation about that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, he volunteered the fact that with regard to that
car, he recalled telling someone else about it and he
went away from where I was and came back with a lady who
I think was Hilary Scarlet and he said to her - asked
her rather - to explain what he told her and that conversation
was between Hilary Scarlet and the other officer that
I was with.
MR KHALIL
Is that at the same time, on the Wednesday?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, the same time.
MR KHALIL
You told us a moment ago that he spoke to you saying that
you thought he had done it, he was the last one to see
or speak to them then he began to cry?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
That's correct.
MR KHALIL
Did you respond to that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I did.
MR KHALIL
How did you respond, please?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
I told him not to persecute himself, pull himself together,
I told him that other people had seen the girls in that
area and in the High Street.
MR KHALIL
How did he respond to that?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
That seemed to cheer him up a bit and he left my company
very shortly afterwards.
MR KHALIL
I want to deal with one or two others features , if I
may, about the conversation you had with him in the house
when you had been there with on Monday, with your colleague,
had there been any mention of Miss Carr?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Yes.
MR KHALIL
What had he said about her presence or absence from the
home?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
He explained to us, when DC Warren asked him where Miss
Carr was at that time, he said that he didn't know but
he thought she was out at an interview for a child minding
job.
MR KHALIL
Where was she looking for that job?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
I think that was in Cambridge.
MR KHALIL
We know that it was raining; did you see a garden?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, I saw a garden through the windows of the house.
MR KHALIL
See anything outside?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
There appeared to be hanging on the washing line some
bedding or some curtains.
MR KHALIL
Was anything said about those items?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
I don't recall.
MR KHALIL
You told us that when looking in the dining room there
was mention of them having a flood and the light fitting
hanging down?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
That's correct.
MR KHALIL
You also went upstairs, did you?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Yes.
MR KHALIL
And see a bathroom there?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, I don't recall looking in the bathroom.
MR KHALIL
Was anything said whilst up there?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Specifically, to do with the bathroom?
MR
KHALIL
Bathroom, or anything that may have occurred?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Not that I can recall.
MR KHALIL
Right. He spoke we know of his dog?
JONATHAN
TAYLOR
Yes.
MR KHALIL
That afternoon. Did he say what condition his dog had
been in?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes, he said the dog was filthy, she was an Alsatian,
she had run away, she was on heat and she had returned
during the afternoon a filthy state.
MR KHALIL
he described the state, what was on her or anything
like that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
he did, whilst he sat in the lounge he mentioned that
there was some sticky things on the dog and he indicated
the size of those with his finger and thumb to be about
one inch in diameter.
MR KHALIL
right?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I took them to be burrs rather than----
MR KHALIL
I have no other questions, thank you.
MR COWARD
officer, who actually took the written statement from
Mr Huntley?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
D C Warren.
MR COWARD
who was doing the talking to Mr Huntley?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
D C Warren was asking him about what had happened, and
I was just trying to make conversation. It would fill
in the time when there was no conversation.
MR COWARD
I understand that - but?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
whilst she was writing I told her about the things.
MR COWARD
whilst she was writing what?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
while she was writing what Mr Huntley told her about
the version of events.
MR COWARD
that's a page and a half isn't it; we have got it in
type form, it is 4 pages in manuscript, that took what?
20 minutes? The writing of that statement?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, 20 minutes to half an hour.
MR COWARD
what was happening the rest of the time you were there
- an hour and a half?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
there was other conversation and looking around the
house and the garage.
MR COWARD
were you making any notes of what was being said?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no.
MR COWARD
why not?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
because none had seemed pertinent at the time, chat
about aeroplane pictures and things.
MR COWARD
here is person who very early from meeting him at his
house was telling you he had seen the girls the night
before. Everything he said as a witness was potentially
important, wasn't it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
but not a single note was taken?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no.
MR COWARD
your statement, officer, is dated 23rd August?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's correct.
MR COWARD
tell me, were you one of the officers that interviewed
Maxine Carr on tape?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
and had that interview with Maxine Carr occurred before
you made this statement on 23rd August?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
of course by the time you made the statement on 23rd
August, you were in possession, weren't you, of a lot
of significant information about this inquiry?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
you were aware by the time you made this statement that
Maxine Carr, it appeared, was in Grimsby at all material
times, weren't you?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
but at the time you saw Mr Huntley at one o' clock-ish
on the 15th August, the whereabouts of Maxine Carr the
evening before were of no concern to you, were they?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR COWARD
And because they are of no concern to you, I suggest
there was no conversation about Maxine Carr at all,
where she was that day, where she had been the night
before; it never cropped up?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
It did.
MR COWARD
Of course, by the 23rd August, it was, in your mind,
highly significant what Mr Huntley may have said about
Maxine, wasn't it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
When do you say in the sequence of events on the 5th
August the conversation about a red Fiesta cropped up?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
At the door just after one o'clock, after we rang on
the door bell.
MR COWARD
How did it crop up?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Mr Huntley volunteered it straight away.
MR COWARD
So you and the officer arrived, you say to him "We
want to ask you - ask for your help, about your apparent
sighting of the two girls the night before", and
he starts talking about a red Fiesta?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
When do you say he said he had seen this red Fiesta?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
The previous afternoon.
MR COWARD
The previous?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
Not several weeks earlier?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR COWARD
Did he tell you he had reported the sighting of a red
Fiesta several weeks earlier to Mrs Bryden, the vice
principal?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, not as far as I can recall.
MR COWARD
What did he tell you he was doing with the dog outside
when he saw the girls?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Cleaning it.
MR COWARD
Cleaning it? Brushing it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Brushing, yes.
MR COWARD
Is that the word you remember?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I can't recall if it was brushing or grooming or cleaning.
MR COWARD
Take it from me officer, check it if you like, that
you used the word brushing in your statement of 23rd
August?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
(nodded).
MR COWARD
He also told you about bathing the dog, didn't he?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
He may have done, yes.
MR COWARD
He may have said lots of things. Don't you remember
that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Not specifically.
MR COWARD
Don't you remember him telling you that he bathed the
dog in the bath?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR COWARD
It is a fairly unusual thing, to bath the dog in the
bath, that doesn't stick in your mind ?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, it doesn't.
MR COWARD
Do you remember him telling you he climbed into the
bath to bath the dog and he cracked the bath?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, I don't recall that.
MR COWARD
But you do recall there was something unusual about
the light fitting in the dining room which we know lies
underneath the bathroom and you spotted that when you
were having a look round?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
And Mr Huntley told you then, didn't he, that after
the bath had cracked water from the bathroom had come
through onto the light fitting which is why he dropped
it down?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I don't recall him saying that. The only thing I can
remember was that they had had a flood.
MR COWARD
You told us he mentioned the flood and you saw the light
fitting in an unusual position what did you say when
you saw the light fitting there?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I think I saw the light fitting at the same time as
he told me they had a flood. I probably made a remark
like, "Oh yes, I see".
MR COWARD
there was a carpet, wasn't there, in the dining room
and you noticed, didn't you, that it was wet on the
carpet beneath where the hole was, where the light fitting
had been?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no, I don't recall seeing the wet carpet.
MR COWARD
what do you recall seeing wet in the dining room?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
the wall.
MR COWARD
the wall?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
which wall?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
the one that was between the dining room and the lounge.
MR COWARD
just to remind ourselves, the light fitting in the dining
room is pretty much in the centre of the dining room,
wasn't it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
I suggest that your memory is at fault and that what
was pointed out to you was wetness on the floor below
the place where the light fitting was. What time did
he say he saw the girls?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
about 6.20.
MR COWARD
about 6.20?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
as far as I can recall.
MR COWARD
you got him to describe what he had done the night before,
and he went through the various stages of seeing people
searching, meeting the woman who is obviously with her
dog and then later on, with other searchers, he heard,
for the first time, the girls they were looking for
were wearing Manchester United tops. That's the sequence,
isn't it ?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's correct.
MR COWARD
After he had given you that sequence of events, you
were supposed to seek his written consent for a search
of the house; this is is standard procedure, is it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
but through an oversight you failed to do so?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
that's true.
MR COWARD
and when was it - this is the Monday, the 5th, lunch
time you are seeing him - when do you reckon it was
that you saw him to get the consent form?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
the middle of the morning on Wednesday, the 7th.
MR COWARD
you went back to the house to do that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
we didn't go to the house. We went to the area of the
house, as I say.
MR COWARD
where was Mr Huntley?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
he was coming from the Lodeside part of the school towards
his house.
MR COWARD
you explained why you were there?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
and you were with a fellow officer, I think, Mr Cooper,
weren't you?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
That's correct.
MR COWARD
And he signed the form for you?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
And then you got back on to the question of the Ford
Fiesta, didn't you?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
He mentioned it, Mr Huntley.
MR COWARD
He told you something didn't he about the Ford Fiesta,
that there was somebody else who could help you on that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
And that somebody else that could help was a lady called
Mrs Scarlet, wasn't it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
Who was a neighbour?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Correct.
MR COWARD
Was Mrs Scarlet in?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I don't know where she was but came back in a very short
time.
MR COWARD
And Mrs Scarlet explained what she had seen of a red
Ford Fiesta?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I wasn't party to any conversation with Mrs Scarlet,
I was speaking to Mr Huntley at the time.
MR COWARD
Sorry I'm not sure I understand that. He has said, look,
you are asking about a Ford Fiesta, there is a lady,
I will fetch her, who can help. Surely the four of you
stood together as Mrs Scarlet explained what she was
saying?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
That's your assumption, Mr Huntley and I stood on one
side of the police car and Mr Cooper and Mrs Scarlet
stood some way away on the other side of the police
car.
MR COWARD
Is there any reason now you can think of why you should
have done that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, it was just where we got out of the car.
MR COWARD
Because, according to you, officer, whilst Mrs Scarlet
was talking to Mr Cooper you were standing with Mr Huntley
and he said something to you and broke down in tears?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I think "broke down in tears" is a little
over stating what happened.
MR COWARD
How would you put it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Started to cry.
MR COWARD
I suggest what happened was that Mrs Scarlet was fetched
and the four of you stood together and Mrs Scarlet explained
in your presence and Mr Huntley's presence that she
had seen his red Fiesta some weeks prior to 4th August.
You were there and you heard her?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR COWARD
I suggest there was no remark by Mr Huntley "you
think I have done it", and beginning to cry; that
didn't happen?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
It did, sir.
MR COWARD
That was 9th August - 7th August?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
Did you have pocket book with you?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR COWARD
Did you have anything to write on?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR COWARD
You had the back of a search form for a start didn't
you?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I did but didn't record what he wrote.
MR COWARD
Did he not strike you that this was said, it was interesting
remark from Mr Huntley? ?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, I didn't think it was at that time, because my answer
to him "Don't persecute yourself, pull yourself
together", would indicate.
MR COWARD
When did you say you first reported to anyone this remark
"You think (inaudible) in your statement of 23rd
August?"
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, during an interview from which that statement was
written on the 21st August.
MR COWARD
Let me explain, I think this was the procedure. on 21st
August you underwent what is known as a cognitive interview?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Correct.
MR COWARD
Where using every experience they have to dredge out
of you every bit of information you may have?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
That's correct.
MR COWARD
That was the first time you mentioned to anyone that
Mr Huntley had said this, 21st August?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
That's correct.
MR COWARD
How long have you been a police officer?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
29 years.
MR COWARD
How long have you been in CID?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
15 years.
MR COWARD
I also suggest, officer, that there was no conversation
with you and Mr Huntley about Maxine Carr and child
minding. By the time you were trying to recall in the
cognitive interview on the 21st August everything that
Mr Huntley had said, were you aware by that stage through
your interview with Maxine Carr and information you
had been fed surrounding that interview, or that series
of interviews, that in fact Maxine Carr, when she had
not got the job at the school, was looking for work
child minding?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Had I been fed.
MR COWARD
Yes?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Only by Mr Huntley.
MR COWARD
Did it crop up in your interview with Maxine Carr about
her looking for work as a child minder?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I don't recall. I couldn't answer that question one
way or the other safely.
MR COWARD
No doubt that is something that can be checked in due
course. So there is no possibility in your mind that
you brought across into what you say Mr Huntley was
saying, something that you learned in connection with
Maxine Carr?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, I don't think it is possible.
MR COWARD
So, when you left the house you had not a single note
of what had been said, you didn't even have a signature
on the consent to search form; so far as you were aware,
your fellow officer was writing out the statement bit
by bit as Mr Huntley told the story, but was not taking
any other note. That's the picture, is it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
That's correct.
MR COWARD
When the statement made by Mr Huntley was finished----?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
----it was obviously read over to him and he signed
it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes, he pointed out a mistake and then signed.
MR COWARD
Was it read out loud?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR COWARD
when it was read out loud, it said this "on Sunday,
4th August I was standing out the front of my house
brushing my dog when I saw two girls approach from the
area of the college. it was about 6 pm"?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
can you explain, if what you say is right, that, if
it was 6.20 he mentioned, how it got to be about 6 pm
in the statement?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no , I can't.
MR COWARD
When that was read out, he, having told you by word
of mouth it was 6.20, didn't you, as an experienced
detective, say to him "hang on a minute, you told
me it was 20 past six".?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no, I didn't.
MR COWARD
why not?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
does it not say, "about 6 pm" in the statement.
MR COWARD
it says it was "about 6 pm" I am quoting the
words from the statement?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
now, timing was important in this case, officer, wasn't
it? Who saw the girls and when was important?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
yes.
MR COWARD
and according to you - you had been told by word of
mouth 6.20 - you find that written down is "it
was about 6 pm", and then on the second typed page
we have, five lines from the end, "before yesterday
I had not seen either of these girls nor have I seen
them since they walked away from me at approximately
6 pm". He has repeated it. So if you missed it
the first time, here is a second chance for you to say
"Hang on a minute, you have told us by word of
mouth 6.20, why are you changing it?" But you never
said that?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no.
MR COWARD
do you remember being puzzled at the time?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no.
MR COWARD
how can you not be puzzled as an experienced police
officer if he has given you a specific time - he has
not said quarter past, half past, 12 to - he has said
20 past six and he is now putting down approximately
6 pm. there is only one answer, officer 20 past six
is a figment of your imagination?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
I don't think so.
MR COWARD
all he said was what is in the statement "about
six o'clock". and you have got a false memory of
him saying 20 past six?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no, I don't think so.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
on one of the walls, the wall between the dining room
and the lounge, and we are in the dining room, there
appears to be wet patches on the wall?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
as far as I can recall, yes.
MR HUBBARD
they were, presumably, closer to the ceiling?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
no, they were closer to the floor, as I remember.
MR HUBBARD
you never made any note about this in your statement,
you never mentioned it?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR HUBBARD
Why not?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
It didn't occur to me at the time.
MR HUBBARD
This is something that has suddenly occurred to you
as you have given evidence this morning ?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
Can you be more specific about it than you have been?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, it didn't look very wet.
MR HUBBARD
But it was wet. You said the wall was wet in answer
to MR COWARD.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
If you ask him more times he might change his mind,
once is enough.
MR HUBBARD
I am getting enthusiastic.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Don't be too enthusiastic.
MR HUBBARD
No, my Lord, it is lunch time.
MR KHALIL
When you made your statement did you sit down with detective
Constable Warren to decide what would go in the statement
or not?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No.
MR KHALIL
I think I asked you this morning, as to whether you
had seen any signs of flood or anything like it, yes?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Had you been asked that directly before or not?
JONATHAN TAYLOR
No, I don't recall being asked that directly.
MR KHALIL
I have no other questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Thank you very much, officer.
(the witness withdrew).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Two o'clock, ladies and gentlemen
{luncheon adjournment}
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