| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
17/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 17 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Mr
Justice Moses is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
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MR KHALIL
Your full name, please, Mr Fitchett. I want to ask about
5th August last year, that whole evening you were out
searching for Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
Yes.
MR KHALIL
About. . (inaudible) you were walking in Soham close,
together with your mother-in-law---
STEPHEN FITCHETT
I was.
MR KHALIL
----you were walking towards the college?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Did you walk past a house you knew to be that occupied
by the college site manager or caretaker?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Did you see somebody at that house?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
I did.
MR KHALIL
Can you describe the person, male of female?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
Male.
MR KHALIL
What was he doing?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
Standing outside smoking a cigarette.
MR KHALIL
Do you remember if there were any vehicles outside the
house?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
No , I don't.
MR KHALIL
We know subsequently you discovered that was Ian Huntley,
is that right?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
Yes.
MR KHALIL
How was he dressed, please?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
In blue trousers and a blue T shirt.
MR KHALIL
As you walked past did either you approach him or he approached
you?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
He approached us.
MR KHALIL
Was anything said?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
He asked how the search was going.
MR KHALIL
Did you reply?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
Yes, we said very well.
MR KHALIL
Did he say anything?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
He said the police had already searched his house and
it makes you look guilty.
MR KHALIL
Any response from you?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
we said, "Why would you feel guilty if you have got
nothing to hide?" He replied, "Yes, but it still
makes you look guilty."
MR KHALIL
did you pass anything further?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
no.
MR KHALIL
was there any talk of involvement in searching?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
no.
MR KHALIL
either your searching or Mr Huntley's searching?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
he said he had been out all the night before looking and
he (inaudible) to go out looking again.
MR KHALIL
about how long did this last?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
probably two to three minutes.
MR KHALIL
Apart from that did you see him again?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
I saw him at a meeting at Soham Village College.
MR KHALIL
is that one of the public meetings?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
one of the public meetings, he stood near me but I didn't
talk to him.
MR KHALIL
when you were stood near him on the meeting on the Monday,
what was his manner, his appearance?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
fine, he seemed normal.
MR KHALIL
wait there, there may be some more questions.
MR COWARD
so, Mr Fitchett, this was the first time you had taken
any part in the searching, this is now Monday, 5th August?
you had not been out overnight, had you?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
I was out Monday daytime.
MR COWARD
yes. Roughly how many people on this occasion when you
helped by taking part in the search, the evening of 5th
August, roughly how many people were there helping?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
5 or 600, I guess.
MR COWARD
one minor detail, what Mr Huntley actually said to you
was "The police have already searched my house and
it makes you look guilty"?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
yes.
MR COWARD
you said to him "If you have got nothing to hide
... ", and he repeated, "But it makes you look
guilty"?
STEPHEN FITCHETT
yes.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
no questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much indeed.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, there are entries on the chronology for the next
bit of a statement that I read. The Jury, I think, will
recollect from my opening as soon as I read this bit,
page 1276, and I only need read a couple of lines of the
statement. It is the statement of Simone Knight, the store
manager at Blockbusters video shop in the High Street
in Soham "From records held we would say we have
a customer account in the name of Ian Nixon of 5 College
Close, Soham, Cambridgeshire", and she handed a printout
of the account to the police. "this printout broadly
consists of all the films, whether video or DVD, that
have been hired from us by this customer, Mr Nixon. From
this account I can say that at 2.31 pm on Sunday, 4th
August, a DVD of a film called 'The Last Castle' was hired
out to Mr Nixon." She gives the name of the employee
who dealt with the transaction. "Then at 9.18 p.m.
on Monday, 5th August, I can say the film was returned
to the shop." She goes on to say "I don't recall
the film actually being returned as some films are either
left in the drop box at the front of the shop or just
left on the counter. " My Lord, the Jury will find
the two entries, the second one, the return is on the
page we have been looking at, page 9 of the chronology,
21.18.
MR KHALIL
I call PAUL FORDHAM, please.
MR KHALIL
Your name, please?
PAUL FORDHAM
Paul Raymond Fordham.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you about- you were a retired firefighter,
based at Soham fire station, is that right?
PAUL FORDHAM
No, sir, I am a retained firefighter.
MR KHALIL
Retained, well thank you. On that Monday, did you report
for duty at the fire station?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes, sir.
MR KHALIL
Were you thereafter to assist in the search for Holly
Wells and Jessica Chapman?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Searched in the Soham area between 12.30 and 2.30 p.m.,
went home to rest and returned for duty at 6.30 a.m. to
continue with your efforts?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
By 9.15 you came to the end of the search?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Did you come to the Lode side of Soham Village College,
parked directly outside what you now know to be the school
site manager's house?
PAUL FORDHAM
That's correct, the only available parking space.
MR KHALIL
Whilst there you were then facing towards College Road?
PAUL FORDHAM
That's right.
MR KHALIL
Was it now dark?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
There was some street lighting around?
PAUL FORDHAM
That's right.
MR KHALIL
Having been searching all day, you no doubt tired, did
you sit on your front bumper?
PAUL FORDHAM
Correct.
MR KHALIL
And did you see another vehicle approaching?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Where was that coming from?
PAUL FORDHAM
Coming from the direction towards me, from down College
Close.
MR KHALIL
Headlights on?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes, sir.
MR KHALIL
Onto the area of the site managers house is that right?
PAUL FORDHAM
Directly in front of the front door.
MR KHALIL
Did it come to a halt there?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Could you see what type of car it was?
PAUL FORDHAM
I did.
MR KHALIL
What was the car?
PAUL FORDHAM
A Ford Fiesta, red.
MR KHALIL
Lights switched off and the driver door opened and did
the driver get out?
PAUL FORDHAM
Correct.
MR KHALIL
Did you see anybody else in the vehicle?
PAUL FORDHAM
No.
MR KHALIL
Having got out of the vehicle, did the driver turn towards
your direction?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes, he did, he locked the door of the car first.
MR KHALIL
We now know you subsequently were to discover it was Ian
Huntley , is that correct?
PAUL FORDHAM
correct.
MR KHALIL
was he carrying a drink?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes.
MR KHALIL
did he approach your vehicle?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes.
MR KHALIL
Did he get to the front of your vehicle?
PAUL FORDHAM
he did, within four feet.
MR KHALIL
were you still by now in the vehicle or----?
PAUL FORDHAM
no, I was sitting in the passenger side.
MR KHALIL
Were you able to look down out of the vehicle and speak
with him?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes.
MR KHALIL
did you speak to one another?
PAUL FORDHAM
we had a conversation, yes.
MR KHALIL
what was said, please?
PAUL FORDHAM
basically he had seen the girls that evening, on the Sunday.
MR KHALIL
Take it steadily he just approached the vehicle?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes.
MR KHALIL
you didn't know who he was?
PAUL FORDHAM
I had no idea who he was at the time.
MR KHALIL
did he introduce himself?
PAUL FORDHAM
he said he was the site manager.
MR KHALIL
did he tell you where he had come from?
PAUL FORDHAM
no, sir.
MR KHALIL
did he tell you what he had been doing?
PAUL FORDHAM
no, sir.
MR KHALIL
did you introduce yourself?
PAUL FORDHAM
I didn't introduce myself by name, (inaudible).
MR KHALIL
he told you he had seen the two girls?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
when exactly was it he said he had seen them?
PAUL FORDHAM
ten past six on the Sunday.
MR KHALIL
the previous night?
PAUL FORDHAM
the previous night.
MR KHALIL
did he tell you where the girls had come from?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes, sir.
MR KHALIL
where did he say they had come from?
PAUL FORDHAM
from the direction of the Ross Peers sports centre along
by the river and approached his house.
MR KHALIL
did he say whether they had stopped?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes, sir.
MR KHALIL
what did he say?
PAUL FORDHAM
he said they had had a conversation, but he didn't say
what it was about.
MR KHALIL
did he say where they were going to?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes, sir.
MR KHALIL
where?
PAUL FORDHAM
he said they went over the bridge and down towards the
town, down College Close.
MR KHALIL
then did he say anything about who else might have seen
them?
PAUL FORDHAM
no, sir.
MR KHALIL
what about his sighting of them?
PAUL FORDHAM
he said he was probably the last person to see them.
MR KHALIL
we know that there had been a press conference set up,
hadn't there, that day?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes.
MR KHALIL
was there any conversation about that?
PAUL FORDHAM
he said he had got to set out chairs for a press conference
for the police.
MR KHALIL
when was that to be held?
PAUL FORDHAM
The next day.
MR KHALIL
what was his attitude about that?
PAUL FORDHAM
It seemed as if he was supposed to be on holiday and it
was something else he had to do apart from his usual duties,
as it appeared to me.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
You are letting your voice drop, I'm not very clear what
you are saying.
MR KHALIL
Just raise your voice he said, the attitude you thought
something about as if he was meant to be on holiday and
another thing?
PAUL FORDHAM
It was an inconvenience to him at the time.
MR KHALIL
Did you ask him about that, the position?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
What was said?
PAUL FORDHAM
He said he was the site manager and I said "Do you
mean the caretaker?" and he replied "Yes."
MR KHALIL
Did you ask him where he lived?
PAUL FORDHAM
He said that he lived in the house where he had parked
the car.
MR KHALIL
Did he say who he lived with?
PAUL FORDHAM
His said he lived with his partner.
MR KHALIL
Any pets?
PAUL FORDHAM
He said he either had one or two dogs and rats.
MR KHALIL
Did you have conversation about the rats?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR KHALIL
Was there any comment about the police who had been to
his home?
PAUL FORDHAM
He said they had been to his home in the morning and searched
the house, being the Monday morning.
MR KHALIL
Someone else. The computer (inaudible)?
PAUL FORDHAM
There was a man pulled up as we were having a conversation
and he was driving a silver Volvo estate car and said
he had computers that was going to aid the police in their
search and he was looking for Beechurst College.
MR KHALIL
Did he simply ask for directions?
PAUL FORDHAM
He did, sir.
MR KHALIL
Were they given to him?
PAUL FORDHAM
They were.
MR KHALIL
By whom?
PAUL FORDHAM
By Ian Huntley.
MR KHALIL
Did anyone receive a phone call?
PAUL FORDHAM
The man in the Volvo.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
MR COWARD wonders where this all going and I echo his
thought.
MR KHALIL
Did that man move on?
PAUL FORDHAM
Once he had been given directions he then closed his window
and drove off.
MR KHALIL
Did Mr Huntley leave as well?
PAUL FORDHAM
He didn't at that point, no.
MR KHALIL
Shortly afterwards?
PAUL FORDHAM
He did.
MR KHALIL
Did he say anything about leaving?
PAUL FORDHAM
When he was about to leave he said "Well, I have
got to go now, the Mrs has got my dinner ready, and I'm
hungry.
MR KHALIL
Where did he go?
PAUL FORDHAM
He walked back to his house, opened the front door with
a key and shut the front door behind him.
MR KHALIL
The time you were in his company, what was his manner
or demeanour, please?
PAUL FORDHAM
Very cool and calm.
MR KHALIL
Just wait there please.
MR COWARD
Mr Fordham, the statement I have from you is dated 16th
September so that is roughly six weeks after the events
that you are describing. Had you been in touch with the
police between the 4th August when the girls disappeared
the 16th September?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
how long before the 16th September had you been in touch?
PAUL FORDHAM
up to the week after the girls disappeared; the police
done a traffic survey in the village and I was in contact
with them then because I thought I had seen something
else which might have been of consequence but it turned
out not to be. Then after there----
MR COWARD
can I stop you there so we have the sequence? You saw
something else you thought might be significant?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes.
MR COWARD
and you told the police about that. Did they take a statement
from you about that?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes, it was about a car.
MR COWARD
we know the day the girls disappeared was 4th August.
You obviously heard about the arrest of Mr Huntley and
Miss Carr; had this statement about the other matter that
turned out to be irrelevant been made before they arrested
Mr Huntley?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes, it had (inaudible).
MR COWARD
can we take it that earlier statement by you made no reference
to this conversation with Mr Huntley?
PAUL FORDHAM
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
how did that statement of 16th September come to be made?
Did the police come to you or did you go to them?
PAUL FORDHAM
no, on the Saturday that Huntley and Carr were arrested
I was departing for a holiday for a fortnight, and they
were arrested on the Saturday afternoon; I left for the
airport after six o'clock on that Saturday and returned
a fortnight later.
MR COWARD
so we have got the sequence of that; the Monday is the
5th August, so the Saturday would be the 10th August -
and you came back a fortnight later?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes.
MR COWARD
which would be 24th August. quite right. I am looking
at the wrong date, I am looking at the day you spoke to
Mr Huntley.
PAUL FORDHAM
The girls were actually - Huntley and Carr were arrested
a fortnight virtually after that.
MR COWARD
arrested in the very early hours of the Saturday, 17th
August. you go on holiday then and you have your fortnight
so you come back, right, at the end of August?
PAUL FORDHAM
yes, that's correct.
MR COWARD
Saturday, 31st?
PAUL FORDHAM
I can't remember the date.
MR COWARD
you had two weeks ?
PAUL FORDHAM
I did.
MR COWARD
right. you come back from your holiday, what happened
then?
PAUL FORDHAM
the person who picked me up from the airport late on Saturday
night said I had better get to the police and give a statement
the next day, because I couldn't get over the fact that
he had said that he was hungry and his wife, his Mrs,
had got his dinner ready and he was hungry. That played
on my mind and I went to the police the very next day
the Sunday, Sunday morning, and the police had set up
a temporary police station in the fire station and that's
where I went, that was in Soham .
MR COWARD
Is this the day you went on your holiday?
PAUL FORDHAM
The day after I got back, which would have been the Sunday.
MR COWARD
So what happened between then, the very end of August
and maybe 1st September and the 16th September which is
the date of the statement we have?
PAUL FORDHAM
Well, I made, I gave a statement, whatever you want to
call it, a temporary statement, or I gave the police some
information and I suppose because of the sheer volume
of work they had to go through they didn't get to me until
the date they put on the statement.
MR COWARD
I will leave that topic for now if there is such information
I'm sure it can be checked exactly where it is, (inaudible)
may have been given at the very beginning of September.
It was between quarter past and half past 9 that you saw
this man?
PAUL FORDHAM
Correct, sir.
MR COWARD
And Members of the Jury, if we look at our chronology
for the 5th August you see the Fiesta draw up and a man
get out of it. It is on page 9, video logged in at Blockbuster
at 9.18 and this a sighting between quarter past 9 and
half past 9 coming back into the college?
PAUL FORDHAM
Correct.
MR COWARD
The man got out of his car and he was carrying something,
wasn't he, in two hands, a cup of some sort, a can of
some sort in the other?
PAUL FORDHAM
No he had a cup in one hand and keys in the other and
he put his keys into his pocket. I saw no bag.
MR COWARD
I suggest, Mr Fordham your memory is playing your tricks
here, he had in one hand a can of coke and in the other
hand he had a carrier bag of the sort you get from the
fish and chip shop?
PAUL FORDHAM
No, sir, that's not correct and it wasn't a can of coke
either, it was a cup with a lid with a straw in, the kind
you get from Burger King or Kentucky Fried Chicken, one
of those sort of cups.
MR COWARD
I suggest that you did not ask him where the girls had
come from, all that happened was he said he had seen the
girls and you talked about seeing them outside his house?
PAUL FORDHAM
No, sir, that's not correct. Didn't say I asked him if
he had seen the girls. He told me that he had seen the
girls at ten past six the previous day.
MR COWARD
I'm not disputing that, what I'm disputing is that he
said where he had seen the girls coming from to get to
where he talks to them?
PAUL FORDHAM
No, as I said, he told me, the girls had come towards
the direction of Ross Peers Sports Centre and walked along
the road alongside the river.
MR COWARD
Did you know the site well?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes, sir, I (inaudible).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Can you keep your voice up; you lived there all your life,
I didn't hear the last bit?
PAUL FORDHAM
I went to the school.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Thank you.
MR COWARD
To get from the sport centre entrance door to number 5
College Close where Mr Huntley lived, you know the sight
well enough, don't you know there is no need to walk down
to the river and then up the river to get to number 5?
PAUL FORDHAM
Yes, I do know that, sir.
MR COWARD
You could actually see number 5 from the sports centre?
PAUL FORDHAM
You could do, yes.
MR COWARD
The final matter, Mr Fordham, I want to deal with is this
at the end of the conversation, what Mr Huntley said to
you was simply this "I have got to go in now, my
tea is going to be getting cold".?
PAUL FORDHAM
No, sir, that's not true.
MR COWARD
Thank you.
MR KHALIL
MR COWARD was asking that earlier - can I hand that back.
(to the witness) Would you just wait there for a moment?
MR COWARD
I have no further questions, my Lord.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Is that it?
MR KHALIL
Can I just confirm the date on the document relating to
the first information of 1st September.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Thank you very much indeed.
MR KHALIL
Thank you very much
(the witness withdrew).
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