| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
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17/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 17 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Mr
Justice Moses is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
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MR KHALIL
police Constable Nicholas Thwaites, please?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
PC 1548 Thwaites, currently stationed at (inaudible).
MR KHALIL
On (inaudible) August last year you were with a group
of officers-----
NICHOLAS THWAITES
correct.
MR KHALIL
-----assembled at a rendezvous point outside St Andrew's
school where they were conducting house-to-house inquiries
in relation to two missing children. Is that right?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
at the end of that inquiry were you in a vehicle occupied
also by Sergeant (inaudible)?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
correct.
MR KHALIL
did a man approach that vehicle?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he did.
MR KHALIL
you discovered him in due course to be Ian Huntley, of
5 College Close, is that right?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
did he indicate what his job was ?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he did.
MR KHALIL
what did he say he did?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he said he was the school and college caretaker.
MR KHALIL
was that information he volunteered freely?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
He did.
MR KHALIL
did you get out of the van and speak with him?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
yes.
MR KHALIL
did you notice if he had a dog with him?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he did.
MR KHALIL
what was the appearance of Mr Huntley?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he appeared to be sweating, he appeared as if he had been
doing some kind of physical activity.
MR KHALIL
did you speak to him?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
I did.
MR KHALIL
what about?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he approached us, the van, he stated he had seen someone
across the field and wished to pass that information to
us.
MR KHALIL
you will have to keep your voice up I am afraid?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
He stated he had seen someone crossing the field and he
wanted to pass on the information to them?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
correct.
MR KHALIL
Did he describe the person?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
not really, no, he stated the male, white male person,
no clothing was described but appeared to be carrying
something heavy in both arms.
MR KHALIL
how is this thing being carried?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
his demonstrated with his arms outstretched in front,
he appeared to be heaving.
MR KHALIL
Did he describe that item apart from it being heavy?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
I don't believe so, no.
MR KHALIL
the direction the person was going?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
across the school playing field.
MR KHALIL
did he say if he, Mr Huntley, had spoken to that person?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he said he had shouted out to him, hey you, stop, something
like that.
MR KHALIL
how had that person reacted?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
no reaction.
MR KHALIL
did he wait in the area or had he left?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
as far as I recall, Huntley then came across to us and
the person disappeared across the fields.
MR KHALIL
did you look to see if there was anyone in the locality?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
we did.
MR KHALIL
was there anybody else there?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
no.
MR KHALIL
was your vehicle driven round from where it was parked
along Sand Street into Clay Street and College Road?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
it was.
MR KHALIL
and parked in the area of the sports centre?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
did Mr Huntley approach the vehicle again?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
he did.
MR KHALIL
was there any further conversation with him there?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
not by myself, no.
MR KHALIL
in all about how long were you speaking with him?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
I believe it was probably two to three minutes.
MR KHALIL
and the time he was in your company from start to finish?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
probably two or three minutes, the length of the conversation.
MR KHALIL
beyond the conversation, first seeing him, then seeing
him at the sports centre roughly how long?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
probably about 10 minutes later I saw him at the sports
centre and we were probably at that location for about
10 minutes.
MR KHALIL
wait there, please.
MR COWARD
Mr Thwaites, when you saw the man, how near did you get
to him?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
how close?
MR COWARD
how close were you?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
probably no more than two or three feet.
MR COWARD
and lighting conditions good enough for you to see his
face?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
yes.
MR COWARD
I think later you attended an identification parade and
picked him out on that parade didn't you?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
I did.
MR COWARD
just two matters are you sure your memory is right as
to how you said the man was carrying the bag or sack that
he had? Could I suggest that what he said to you was that
he had seen this man running with the bag over his shoulder?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
you can suggest that, I recall it was carrying it out
in front of him.
MR COWARD
did you make any note of the conversation you had with
this man afterwards?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
I made I brief note in my pocket notebook, yes.
MR COWARD
do you know what is in your pocket notebook, do you have
a copy of it? No doubt your original has been handed in?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
I have the pocket notebook with me.
MR COWARD
you have it with you?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
yes.
MR COWARD
may I see it please? {same handed} you may have to help
me with your writing, Mr Thwaites?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
okay.
MR COWARD
could you possibly read out for us the bit that's relevant
to this case about seeing Mr Huntley?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
"2300 hours,
I was given his name, his address, and his mobile phone
number and the entry saw a male carrying something on
playing fields/path, shouted but the man ran off.
MR COWARD
that's it, that's your entry; correct?
NICHOLAS THWAITES
correct.
MR COWARD
thank you very much.
MR KHALIL
thank you very much. special Constable Goldsmith, please
MR KHALIL
will you just give us your name, rank?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
my name is PC Goldsmith of Bedfordshire police, 5493,
based at Bedfordshire police station.
MR KHALIL
I think last summer you were a special Constable with
the Cambridgeshire police force, is that right?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
that's correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
on 5th August last year you and a number of other colleagues
were sent to Soham to assist with door to door inquiries?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
that was in order to help to look for the two missing
girls?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
that's right.
MR KHALIL
those inquiries take much of the evening and then come
to a conclusion at about 11 pm that day?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes.
MR KHALIL
you were picked up in a police vehicle carrier and taken
to the area of the primary school?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
correct.
MR KHALIL
you walk around the school, speaking to various other
special constables and at some point your attention was
drawn to to another man?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
that's right.
MR KHALIL
he was not part of your group?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
correct.
MR KHALIL
we now know that man to be Ian Huntley; did you know him
at the time or not?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
I did not know him at the time.
MR KHALIL
did you see if he had a dog with him?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, he had a dog with him.
MR KHALIL
was the dog on a lead?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
No.
MR KHALIL
did he speak about the dog?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, he did.
MR KHALIL
what did he say?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
he said the dog was a bitch and that it was in season.
MR KHALIL
did you try and go near the dog?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
and what was the attitude of the dog and the attitude
of Mr Huntley?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
the dog moved away or seemed to be scared and the reason
why this was Mr Huntley said that the dog was in season.
MR KHALIL
how close were you to Mr Huntley now?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
about a metre and a half away , I believe.
MR KHALIL
did you talk with him?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
Yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
what did you talk about?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
we had a general conversation about my dogs, because I
am interested in dogs, and a conversation about his dog.
MR KHALIL
what did he say about this dog?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
I was talking to him about play fighting with my dog and
how we had play fights with our dog, and he pointed out
some scratches on his face that he said his dog did in
a play fight.
MR KHALIL
did you bring up the subject of play fighting with the
dog or did he?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
I did.
MR KHALIL
he responded in terms to say he play fought with his dog?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
correct.
MR KHALIL
and pointed out some scratches?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
that's right.
MR KHALIL
where were they?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
on his left cheek his jaw line.
MR KHALIL
did you see how many scratches were there?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, on my statement I put three scratches.
MR KHALIL
is that correct?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
that is correct.
MR KHALIL
before he pointed out those scratches to you, had you
noticed them already or not?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
no.
MR KHALIL
just describe the appearance of those scratches, please,
how long were they?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
about an inch long.
MR KHALIL
can you help with the of the scratches?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
the direction.
MR KHALIL
yes?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
vertical, on the jaw line.
MR KHALIL
sorry?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
On the jaw line.
MR KHALIL
on the jaw line?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, vertical.
MR KHALIL
Were they all in that area or not?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, they were.
MR KHALIL
Apart from that, were there any other injuries apparent
on him or not?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
no.
MR KHALIL
did you become aware that there was a report made by him
about someone crossing the school playing fields?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, I did .
MR KHALIL
did you help search that area for such a person?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
I did.
MR KHALIL
Did you find anyone?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
we found no-one.
MR KHALIL
if you wait there there maybe more questions, thank you.
MR COWARD
I think, officer, there was someone called Viv Matthews
with you at time?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes, there was.
MR COWARD
when you were speaking to the man with the dog?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
correct.
MR COWARD
and there are three of you, yourself, Viv Matthews and
the man, and you are standing effectively in a triangle?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
that's correct. There was me, Viv Matthews and another
special Constable and also another special Constable (inaudible)
which I put in my statement.
MR COWARD
so at the time of the conversation about dog scratches
who was there - who was present and able to hear it?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
well, I'm not too sure whether the other two special constables
with me heard our conversation we were having; it was
possible it was just me and him who were involved in this
conversation we were having.
MR COWARD
they were there with you, how is it possible that they
did not hear it?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
well, they may have heard. I'm not too sure if they heard
or not, whether they have put it on their statement.
MR COWARD
I will put the question as simply as I can When you say
Mr Huntley mentioned some scratches on his face, which
police officers do you say were standing as part of the
group in a position to hear what was said?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
Viv Matthews and (inaudible) were the two special constables
with us at that time.
MR COWARD
not only - if you are right - were they in a position
to hear what was said, they would have been in a position
to see this injury on the face themselves?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
yes.
MR COWARD
there was no such conversation, officer, there was no
such injury?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
I know what I saw, and I know what was pointed out to
me.
MR COWARD
thank you?
RUSSELL GOLDSMITH
thank you.
MR KHALIL
no other questions.
RICHARD BENNETT
Police Constable Bennett formerly known as Edmonson.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I thought my hearing was going for a minute there.
MR KHALIL
officer I want to take you to Monday, 5th August last
year, you mentioned a tour of duty at four o'clock in
the afternoon due to finish on the Tuesday morning at
6 a.m., is that right.
NEW SPEAKER
that's correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
and were you, having reported at Ely police station, instructed
to take the mobile police station to St Andrew's school,
Soham?
RICHARD BENNETT
correct.
MR KHALIL
There was a crowd gathering and increasing press interest?
RICHARD BENNETT
correct.
MR KHALIL
When you arrived there, was it apparent there were some
50 to 200 people already there?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
you didn't feel you could cope alone, contacted the inspector
on duty instructed to talk to the press and public and
ask them to go home to prepare to return about 7 p.m.?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
at about 7 did you open the mobile police station door
by which time many more people had gathered in the area?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's correct, sir,.
MR KHALIL
fire engines and ambulance crews had also turned up?
RICHARD BENNETT
correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
(inaudible)?
RICHARD BENNETT
it did, sir.
MR KHALIL
did you in that time notice you man you subsequently learned
to be Ian Huntley?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, at some point, sir.
MR KHALIL
all right. Did he appear to be taking part with the others
or not?
RICHARD BENNETT
no, sir.
MR KHALIL
what was he doing?
RICHARD BENNETT
he was watching, observing everyone else.
MR KHALIL
I want to move on please to about 10.30, quarter to 11
that evening, An inspector I think decided to disperse
the public is that right?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's right.
MR KHALIL
there was then a house to house inquiry conducted by officers?
RICHARD BENNETT
that was being done at the same time, sir.
MR KHALIL
were officers then collected up and returned to the school,
St Andrew's school, about quarter past 11?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
and whilst there was some information brought to you about
someone having seen a person making off?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
in that vicinity did you see Ian Huntley?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, I did, sir, briefly.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with him?
RICHARD BENNETT
I did speak with him, sir, I think it was later on.
MR KHALIL
later on?
RICHARD BENNETT
I can't really remember.
MR KHALIL
all right. What did you do, having spoken with him?
RICHARD BENNETT
having received the information that somebody had run
off, we gathered up in the van, I took a van full of officers
round to where these youths were supposed to have been
seen.
MR KHALIL
did you understand them to be one or more people?
RICHARD BENNETT
I didn't really know at the time, sir, I think we based
on one person having been seen.
MR KHALIL
where did you go to?
RICHARD BENNETT
we drove into Sand Street, down to the war memorial, turned
left into Clay Street, and then left again into College
Drive. we eventually stop in the car park of the Ross
Peers Sports Centre.
MR KHALIL
is that roughly where I have put the arrow?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, it was towards Gidney Lane.
MR KHALIL
Gidney Lane we know to be there?
RICHARD BENNETT
it was at the entrance to Gidney Lane.
MR KHALIL
thank you very much?
RICHARD BENNETT
on the car park, sir.
MR KHALIL
did you see Ian Huntley, there?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, he was stood some way off and then walked towards
our vehicle.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with him then?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, I got out of the vehicle and went round the back
of our police van and he said words to the effect of "I
have just seen some kids or a kid run off with a bin liner
over his shoulder."
MR KHALIL
To pause again you used the phrase "kid" or
"kids", can you now recall whether it was one
or more persons he was speaking of or can you not say?
RICHARD BENNETT
in my statement that I made I believe it was "some
kids" was the term he may have used.
MR KHALIL
did you ask for more detail?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
did he give any more detail?
RICHARD BENNETT
no, it was quite clear on the bin liner but couldn't offer
any more detail about anything else he had seen.
MR KHALIL
as to the bin liner, any information as to whether there
was anything in the bin liner?
RICHARD BENNETT
not that I recall, sir.
MR KHALIL
did he say where this person or people had gone?
RICHARD BENNETT
he gestured and pointed in the direction of the hangar
in the main school area?
MR KHALIL
We know the hangar to be down here?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, we stood facing the sports centre.
MR KHALIL
Still in the area of Gidney Lane?
RICHARD BENNETT
Yes, correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
yes?
RICHARD BENNETT
as he was telling me this he gestured with his right hand
and pointed in that direction and he mentioned about running
off over the field I recall .
MR KHALIL
was anyone tasked to see if they could spot anybody there?
RICHARD BENNETT
no we did speak amongst ourselves and it quickly transpired
no-one else had seen this in the police vehicle.
MR COWARD
can I follow this, somebody, not Mr Huntley, passes some
information to your vehicle to the effect that someone
has been running away with a black bag, is that right?
RICHARD BENNETT
I believe the person that told us was Mr Huntley but I
got this information by the officers in the back of my
vehicle.
MR COWARD
you drove as quickly as you could on a route, Sand Street
into College Road?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
as a result of some information you had?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
as you understood it, what were you looking for then?
RICHARD BENNETT
as I understood it, I was looking for a youth or youths
with a black bin liner, the only information at that time.
MR COWARD
up to this stage you had not spoken personally to Mr Huntley,
had you?
RICHARD BENNETT
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
we are now familiar with the route, how you got into the
college. you actually parked in the sports centre car
park?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, sir
MR COWARD
You had not seen anyone carrying a bag of any kind on
that journey?
RICHARD BENNETT
no, sir.
MR COWARD
having parked the car, you then do what?
RICHARD BENNETT
well, as I say, it was a van, sir, and there were a number
of officers in the back. I stopped, some colleagues of
mine got out to speak to some youths that were with a
silver vehicle, and whilst my colleagues were speaking
to these youths I noted Mr Huntley emerge from the side
of the sport centre; I observed him in my wing mirror.
MR COWARD
these youths in the silver car were actually shown to
Mr Huntley, weren't they, to see if he could identify
any one of them as the person he had seen with the bag?
RICHARD BENNETT
I can't confirm that, sir, they were stood near to us
though when I spoke to Mr Huntley.
MR COWARD
do you remember him saying, "It could be one of them,
but I'm not sure"?
RICHARD BENNETT
I don't remember.
MR COWARD
you have no recollection of that?
RICHARD BENNETT
no.
MR COWARD
so at what stage did you have the conversation with Mr
Huntley - after you had parked the vehicle?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes.
MR COWARD
at the sports centre?
RICHARD BENNETT
I stopped the vehicle and I was waiting for my colleagues
to speak with the I think a youth with the car. I then
observed Mr Huntley emerge from the side of the sport
centre where, over my shoulder I did follow him in my
driver door wing mirror, and I watched him walk across
the car pack and go round the rear of our police van.
Then I asked if any of the officers were going to go and
talk to him and didn't hear anything, so I got out myself.
MR COWARD
you said words to the effect (inaudible)?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, that's what is in my statement.
MR COWARD
can you give us any idea what sort of time had elapsed
between you getting the message about this person with
the bag and you speaking to Mr Huntley?
RICHARD BENNETT
it was within a couple, may be three minutes - as long
as it took me to drive quickly from St Andrew's School
round the block - in effect to the car park Ross Peers.
MR COWARD
he told you what had he had seen, told you in which direction
the person had run off?
RICHARD BENNETT
he gestured in which direction and told me what he had
seen.
MR COWARD
you obviously were anxious if you could, to get a description
of the person that he had seen?
RICHARD BENNETT
absolutely.
MR COWARD
but he said he was not able to give you any description
other than it was male?
RICHARD BENNETT
yes, I mean he was sure on the bin bag but nothing else.
MR COWARD
thank you very much.
MR KHALIL
thank you, no other questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
MR KHALIL
sergeant Lowings please
MR KHALIL
name rank and station please?
RICHARD LOWINGS
sir, acting Inspector number 078 Richard James Lowings,
Cambridgeshire constabulary, currently serving on central
division in the (inaudible) police station.
MR KHALIL
on Monday, 5th August last year, you were on duty as a
uniformed police sergeant at St Andrew's school in Soham,
at about 11 p.m., is that right?
RICHARD LOWINGS
correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
and you and others had been involved in a house to house
search in the area?
RICHARD LOWINGS
That's correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
after that had concluded, were you given information that
someone was providing an account of a person having made
off in the area?
RICHARD LOWINGS
That is correct, sir.
MR KHALIL
did you subsequently approach that person and find him
to be Ian Huntley?
RICHARD LOWINGS
I approached the person and later discovered it was Ian
Huntley.
MR KHALIL
my Lord, pick up the page reference I gave a moment ago.
Can I help please using the map, where it was that you
were when you spoke with him what about he had seen?
RICHARD LOWINGS
you will have to bear with me; it was the first occasion
I had been to the school. It was in a car park area, on
the opposite side to the main building of St Andrew's
school where I had----
MR KHALIL
were your fellow officers, or some of them, speaking with
some youths in a car at the time?
RICHARD LOWINGS
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
Did you speak to Mr Huntley about the description of the
person he was talking about?
RICHARD LOWINGS
I did, sir.
MR KHALIL
and did you make any effort to compare what Mr Huntley
had seen with the youths in the vehicle?
RICHARD LOWINGS
yes.
MR KHALIL
tell us how it went, please in short?
RICHARD LOWINGS
in short I escorted Mr Huntley to the area where the youths
were and asked him if any of the youths we were talking
to fitted the description of a person he had seen?
MR KHALIL
how did he react to that?
RICHARD LOWINGS
he reacted by pointing to one of the youths who had dark
clothing and indicated that the clothing was similar,
it was dark but it was clear he was not indicating that
that was the person he had seen.
MR KHALIL
what was Mr Huntley's attitude and demeanour at the time?
RICHARD LOWINGS
he appeared to me to be calm, rational, comfortable in
my presence.
MR KHALIL
Did he say anything about the missing girls that you had
been looking for?
RICHARD LOWINGS
Yes, he did.
MR KHALIL
how did that come about?
RICHARD LOWINGS
After we had spoken about the youths near the car, I walked
Mr Huntley away from the youths and whilst we were standing
together he just came out with the fact that he was the
last person to see the girls, about 6.30, but it was okay
because (inaudible).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I cannot hear. he was already something.
MR KHALIL
spoken to by CID. (To the witness) What was his manner
when he gave you that information?
RICHARD LOWINGS
again, calm and rational.
MR KHALIL
no other questions, thank you.
MR COWARD
when you were with Mr Huntley and he was shown the people
in the light coloured car, what he said was they had dark
clothing, a bit like that, and pointed to one of the boys,
but it is right, isn't it, that he made no attempt to
claim that any one of the four of them was the man that
he had seen running across the fields?
RICHARD LOWINGS
no.
MR COWARD
the second matter is this it may be a matter of words
but when you were speaking to Mr Huntley about the events,
what he actually said to you was that he was one of the
last people to see the girls at about 6.30. Is that right?
RICHARD LOWINGS
my recollection is that he said he was the last person.
MR COWARD
the last? Apart from that you agree?
RICHARD LOWINGS
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
thank you.
(the witness withdrew)
MR LATHAM
Marion Clift, please, page 13.16, my Lord. The Jury will
need in the chronology to go back to the Saturday now,
page 3 of the chronology.
MR LATHAM
can you start first of all, please, by telling me what
your full name is?
MARION CLIFT
Marion Elizabeth Clift.
MR LATHAM
I think you live at an address in Grimsby, don't you?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
I have no need to trouble you with the precise address,
but can I ask you about a next-door neighbour that you
had in August of last year. I think that was a man who
you had come to know for some considerable time, wasn't
it?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
what was his name?
MARION CLIFT
Ian.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
MARION CLIFT
Ian.
MR LATHAM
Ian, the next door neighbour?
MARION CLIFT
oh, Glyn.
MR LATHAM
Glyn. Glyn Farrell was that?
MARION CLIFT
yes, had Glyn Farrell been your next-door neighbour for
the 13 or so years that you have been at your address?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
about five years or six years ago did Glyn Farrell start
a relationship with a woman?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you come to know that woman as time went by?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
and what was she called?
MARION CLIFT
Shirley.
MR LATHAM
Shirley Capp I think, isn't it?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
you and your partner or husband?
MARION CLIFT
partner.
MR LATHAM
you and your partner and Glyn Farrell and his partner
as she became, became quite good friends, didn't you?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
over the time as a result of that friendship did you come
to learn that Shirley Capp had two daughters by a previous
relationship?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
and in fact did you get to meet those two daughters as
the years went by?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
and I think those two daughters were respectively Hayley
and Maxine, weren't they?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
from time to time would Hayley and Maxine visit Shirley,
next door?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
after you had got to know Maxine, because she would come
and see Shirley, did you also learn after a time that
she had a boyfriend called Ian?
MARION CLIFT
Yes.
MR LATHAM
did you come to actually meet the boyfriend, Ian or was
it a case of just seeing him from time to time?
MARION CLIFT
just seeing him.
MR LATHAM
the early part of last year, I think, you learned from
Shirley that Maxine and Ian had moved down to Cambridgeshire
didn't you?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you know whether he or she had got jobs in Cambridgeshire?
MARION CLIFT
I knew Maxine was helping out at a school.
MR LATHAM
I want to take you on, if I may, to early August of last
year. I am told I can lead the dates. From Shirley you
learned Maxine was likely to be coming up to visit her
in early August didn't you?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
I want to take you on to Saturday, and, indeed Saturday
evening, that would be the 3rd August. I don't think you
actually saw Maxine arrive, did you?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you are here to tell people in court, particularly the
Jury about what you saw, so it is terribly important they
do hear what you saw. I know it is you don't give evidence
everyday, do make sure that they can hear. Right. Maxine
came up on the Saturday, yes.
MR LATHAM
on the Saturday, although she had not seen her arrive,
did there come a time when you in fact saw Maxine and,
indeed, Shirley Capp, her mother, outside your house?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
approximationly what time was that that you saw?
MARION CLIFT
around 7 -ish.
MR LATHAM
in the evening?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
was there another neighbour with them at the time a man
called Danny?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
and were they, as it were, going into Shirley's or seen
to be leaving Shirley's house?
MARION CLIFT
leaving Shirley's house.
MR LATHAM
right. So that is on the Saturday evening at around 7
o'clock. my Lord, that is the entry on page 3 of the chronology.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, thank you.
MR LATHAM
I want to jump on to the Sunday morning. Did you happen
to notice that the curtains were still drawn some considerable
time into the morning the next day?
MARION CLIFT
yes, they were.
MR LATHAM
and did you see either Shirley or Maxine during the course
of the daytime?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR LATHAM
but again, did you see them at some stage during the Sunday?
MARION CLIFT
yes, when they were going back at---
MR LATHAM
when they were going back out? Approximately on that occasion
what time was it?
MARION CLIFT
---round about between seven and eight -ish.
MR LATHAM
indeed I think you would rather have liked to go out yourself
that evening and passed an observation to your partner
to that effect?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
that's the Sunday , if we turn to the next day, the Monday,
did you see Maxine at all on the Monday?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
when did you see her on the Monday?
MARION CLIFT
in the morning.
MR LATHAM
again, not trying to tie you down to a fixed time but
some indication of when in the morning?
MARION CLIFT
around ten -ish.
MR LATHAM
where did you see her?
MARION CLIFT
outside McDonalds.
MR LATHAM
Sorry?
MARION CLIFT
outside McDonalds.
MR LATHAM
on this occasion not in your road, out in town in Grimsby
wasn't it?
MARION CLIFT
yes .
MR LATHAM
did you actually speak to her or not?
MARION CLIFT
i did speak to her.
MR LATHAM
anything important or passing the time of day?
MARION CLIFT
passing the time of day.
MR LATHAM
I think a short time later you went home and in fact saw
her mother Shirley Capp at home?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
did Maxine say anything about where she was going to go
that day or did you just chat about the weather, things
like that?
MARION CLIFT
I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
I think you did have a bit of a chat with Shirley though
didn't you?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you see Maxine again on the Monday?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR LATHAM
I would like , if I may, to move on to the Tuesday, please.
Now, on Tuesday, were you out in the street at some point
close to your home?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you see Maxine on the Tuesday morning?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
when you first saw her was she inside or outside?
MARION CLIFT
inside.
MR LATHAM
what was she doing?
MARION CLIFT
looking out the window.
MR LATHAM
looking out of the window? what sort of time was that?
MARION CLIFT
11-ish.
MR LATHAM
were you going somewhere?
MARION CLIFT
if it's coming in.
MR LATHAM
you were coming in, sorry. I think later on that morning
you went out, didn't you?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
to the shops?
MARION CLIFT
yes .
MR LATHAM
having been shopping, did you return to your home?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
now, this may be a more important timing can you help
with the sort of time it was you were coming back into
you street to your home having been shopping?
MARION CLIFT
12, 20 past 12.
MR LATHAM
are this detached houses or terraced houses?
MARION CLIFT
terraced houses.
MR LATHAM
is Shirley's right next door to yours?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
as you were walking along the street back to your house,
did you notice something?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
take it in stages what was the very first thing you noticed;
was it a person or a thing?
MARION CLIFT
person.
MR LATHAM
who did you see?
MARION CLIFT
Maxine.
MR LATHAM
was she on her own or with someone?
MARION CLIFT
she was with somebody.
MR LATHAM
did you recognise the person she was with?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
who was that?
MARION CLIFT
it was Ian.
MR LATHAM
this is Maxine's partner, whom you have never actually
spoken to but you knew by sight?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
were they inside or outside when you saw them?
MARION CLIFT
outside.
MR LATHAM
were they by something?
MARION CLIFT
by the side of the car.
MR LATHAM
the side of the car. What sort of car was it?
MARION CLIFT
a little red car.
MR LATHAM
where were they in relation to the car when you saw them?
MARION CLIFT
They were parked on the road facing the wrong way.
MR LATHAM
so - parked at the side, against the pavement?
MARION CLIFT
Yes, against the pavement.
MR LATHAM
but facing the traffic rather than----?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
was it on your side of the road or the other side of the
road?
MARION CLIFT
my side of the road.
MR LATHAM
how far away from either your house or from Shirley's
house was it?
MARION CLIFT
not very far.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
keep your voice up. not very far, yes.
MR LATHAM
where were the two of them in relation to this motor car,
what part of the motor car were they near to?
MARION CLIFT
they were near the boot.
MR LATHAM
by this point, when you noticed them and recognised them,
about how far away were you from them?
MARION CLIFT
as close as what I am to you.
MR LATHAM
so what, ten yards or so away? Were you walking back to
your house?
MARION CLIFT
yes, I was.
MR LATHAM
as you noticed they were epeople you recognised, had you
ever seen that motor car before or not?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR LATHAM
you said, it is "a little car", I think I can't
remember whether you said what the colour was?
MARION CLIFT
red.
MR LATHAM
they were near the boot of the car, was the boot open
or closed?
MARION CLIFT
open.
MR LATHAM
what did the two of them appear doing as they stood at
the boot of the car?
MARION CLIFT
looking into the boot of the car.
MR LATHAM
did you notice anything about Maxine?
MARION CLIFT
Maxine was crying.
MR LATHAM
people can cry silently with tears in their eyes or coming
down their cheeks or you can cry and you can actually
hear they are crying; are you able to say what sort of
crying this was?
MARION CLIFT
you could hear her crying.
MR LATHAM
what about Ian, how did he look?
MARION CLIFT
pale, shaking, didn't look very good at all.
MR LATHAM
didn't look very good. Do you have a garden fence or a
garden wall immediately in front of your front door?
MARION CLIFT
small wall.
MR LATHAM
is there something you need to go through in order to
get to the front door?
MARION CLIFT
a gate.
MR LATHAM
did you get to your gate?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
As you went through the gate is it a quiet gate?
MARION CLIFT
no, it squeaks.
MR LATHAM
did it squeak on that morning as you went through?
MARION CLIFT
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Did that have an effect on either or both of them as they
stood at boot of the car?
MARION CLIFT
yes, they jumped when they heard the gate, both stared
at me and Ian slammed the boot shut.
MR LATHAM
So the boot was slammed, what about Maxine?
MARION CLIFT
Maxine just looked, I could see the tears, and put her
head down.
MR LATHAM
did you say something in their direction
MARION CLIFT
Yes, to Ian.
MR LATHAM
what did you say?
MARION CLIFT
I asked if everything was going all right down there.
MR LATHAM
and the response?
MARION CLIFT
"yes."
MR LATHAM
after that single word, "yes", what did they
do?
MARION CLIFT
they went into Shirley's house .
MR LATHAM
did you see them again?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR LATHAM
thank you, would you wait there, please.
MR COWARD
by Tuesday, 6 August, Soham was very well known to everyone,
and the girls were still missing at that time?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
can you keep your voice up?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR COWARD
and you have been following on television, or in the paper,
both, what efforts were being made, to the search parties
and the like?
MARION CLIFT
not really, no.
MR COWARD
how did you manage to avoid?
MARION CLIFT
I heard through people and things like that about it,
but I never put the telly on to watch it or sat with a
paper in front of me and read it.
MR COWARD
are you not a great newspaper reader?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR COWARD
just two things. I suggest that your recollection is at
fault in two areas. One is that the boot of the car was
never in the up position, it was closed all the time when
you saw Ian and Maxine, and secondly----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
can we have one at a time.
MR COWARD
what do you say?
MARION CLIFT
it was open.
MR COWARD
secondly, I suggest Maxine was not crying?
MARION CLIFT
yes, she was.
MR HUBBARD
Mrs Clift, you knew by Tuesday early morning that Maxine
was upset ?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
you and her mother were very good friends?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and you knew that Maxine Carr was coming to Grimsby in
the first place?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
you also knew that her visit was being shortened by going
back early?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
now, I am going to suggest to you you are absolutely right
when you say the car boot was open and you are absolutely
right when you say that Maxine Carr, was, I am going put
it, tearful. You say she was crying and you could hear
her?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
certainly am going to suggest tearful and the boot up.
At the time you saw this, you thought nothing sinister
about it at all, did you, at the time?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
in fact, you thought she is probably putting her belongings
into the boot to the car to go back to Grimsby?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
to Soham. I am going suggest, Mrs Clift, that's exactly
what she was doing, but I don't know whether you were
able to see that?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
it looked that way, didn't it, as she just stood there?
MR HUBBARD
you don't know whether she put belongings in there before
you had seen her?
MARION CLIFT
no, I don't know.
MR HUBBARD
you put this time at about 12 to 12.20?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
you think you are right about that or might it have been
a bit later?
MARION CLIFT
I think I was about right with that.
MR HUBBARD
do I understand you to say that you are on your way back
from shopping when this happened?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
so you would have been going from your front gate to the
door of your house and into your house after you had seen
them?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
did you have a bicycle with you?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
do you have a bicycle?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and on that bicycle do you have child seat on the back?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
And you have a small child, I think?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
that you sometimes carry?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
are you sure you weren't on that bicycle?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
at some stage that morning?
MARION CLIFT
at some stage that morning, yes.
MR HUBBARD
you were? Right. Before or after you say you saw Maxine
by the boot of the car?
MARION CLIFT
before.
MR HUBBARD
did you leave your home on that occasion to go shopping?
MARION CLIFT
I left a couple of times.
MR HUBBARD
exactly, you left twice that morning, didn't you, to go
shopping. once with the bike, once on foot?
MARION CLIFT
no, not on my bike.
MR HUBBARD
not on your bike. Did you use the bike earlier on that
morning at some stage?
MARION CLIFT
About 9 o'clock.
MR HUBBARD
you don't think it would be a bit later?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
I am just going to see whether you can remember this at
some stage that morning when you were on your bicycle,
did you see Maxine Carr?
MARION CLIFT
on the Tuesday?
MR HUBBARD
on the Tuesday, yes, when you were out with your bicycle?
MARION CLIFT
when I was bringing the bicycle in the front garden, that's
when I saw her at the window the first time.
MR HUBBARD
I am going to suggest you saw her in the street and said
something like, or she said something to you like "Hi,
Marion", do you remember that?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
are you absolutely sure that you saw her by the boot of
the car as you were coming back from shopping?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
you remember making the statement to the police about
this?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
two weeks later on 20th August. Can you listen to what
I suggest you said in your statement and if you want to
come in, please say so. You said you were "looking
out at Shirley's front window at around 10.45 on the Tuesday
morning. I then went out to the shops around 12.20 p.m.
and as I walked towards my front gate from the door I
could see Maxine and Ian stood with their backs to me
at the rear of a small red car. " I'm going to stop
there. You were saying in your statement to the police
it was the other way about, weren't you, that on the way
from the house, from the front door to the gate, on the
way out to do the shopping, you saw Maxine by the boot
of the car; I'm wondering which is right?
MARION CLIFT
as I said, I went out a couple of times so it might have
been when I was going out again.
MR HUBBARD
might have been when you were going out again; it may
not matter much because as I say, I accept she was tearful,
I accept the boot was open. where did you see them go
after that?
MARION CLIFT
into Shirley's.
MR HUBBARD
are you sure about that?
MARION CLIFT
yes, I turned around. I had two kids with me one was lagging
behind.
MR HUBBARD
if I suggested the time you saw them by the boot of the
car was probably closer to one o'clock than half past
12, what would you say?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
I expect you knew that about that time Shirley went out
to work?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and she sometimes left the house shortly before one o'clock?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
did you see her get into the rear seat of that motor car
at some stage that morning?
MARION CLIFT
Shirley - no.
MR HUBBARD
you didn't?
MARION CLIFT
no.
MR HUBBARD
if this happened on the way back from shopping you went
into the house and didn't see any more, yes?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR HUBBARD
when did you next leave the house, can you remember?
MARION CLIFT
tea time.
MR HUBBARD
tea time.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes.
MR HUBBARD
Mrs Clift , can you help me, about how long does it take
to get from your door from you house to the shops you
went to, 5 minutes or longer than that?
MARION CLIFT
longer than that.
MR HUBBARD
you tell me, 10, 15, 20?
MARION CLIFT
depends on what shops I was going to.
MR HUBBARD
I see. Can you remember that morning which shops you went
to? Silly question.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
very silly question.
MR HUBBARD
the shops you went to that morning how far away and how
long did it take to get to them - roughly?
MARION CLIFT
I don't know.
MR HUBBARD
how long were you away from the house altogether, let's
see if we can get to it that way?
MARION CLIFT
I still don't know.
MR HUBBARD
thank you, Mrs Clift.
MR LATHAM
Mrs Clift, on the occasion you saw the two of them at
the back of the car, when you were describing it to me,
describing coming back to your home, it has been pointed
out to you that, reading your statement, it could be that
you were leaving your home, coming from the front door
to the gate and then out on to the street - think back
to the picture you had - whether you were leaving the
house or coming to the house?
MARION CLIFT
I was leaving the house.
MR LATHAM
leaving the house? As you came out through your front
door and walked down towards the gate a matter of feet
away, would you have been able to see the car and the
two of them as you were in your garden, or would you only
have noticed them as you came through the gate?
MARION CLIFT
no , I seen them from the garden.
MR LATHAM
were they doing anything at the back of the car or just
standing there?
MARION CLIFT
just standing there.
MR LATHAM
having come through the gate, and the noise of the gate
having attracted them to you, made them realise you were
there. Did you walk along the road past this parked or
in the opposite direction?
MARION CLIFT
went past the parked car.
MR LATHAM
when did they start to set off back in through the front
door of----?
MARION CLIFT
straight away when he slammed the boot.
MR LATHAM
that was when you actually spoke, asking if they were
all right?
MARION CLIFT
yes.
MR LATHAM
I have nothing further.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much indeed
(the witness withdrew).
MR LATHAM
my Lord the next witness is the hitchhiker who will take
a little time, I'm entirely in the court's hands.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
where has he come from?
MR LATHAM
I'm afraid I don't know, as my Lord knows, statements
nowadays have the addresses on the back so----.
MR COWARD
can I mention one matter on that topic, I have not had
opportunity this afternoon to speak to my client. I would
very much like to do so.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
You are saying not this afternoon.
MR COWARD
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
Right. Ladies and gentlemen, that is it for today. We
have had a good day, got through the evidence well, I
hope you will agree. Tomorrow, so you can make arrangements,
I do not know if it is good news or bad news, we can't
sit after three o'clock so any merit in a shorter lunch
or just arrange witnesses anyway?
MR LATHAM
we have certainly warned enough witnesses to keep us going
until three o'clock.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I think we'll have our normal lunch and start at half
past ten. if you can be here by 10.30. Hearing adjourned
- will resume tomorrow
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