| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
18/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Tuesday, 18 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen
Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Michael
Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice
Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07 08
09
MR LATHAM
ROBERT JEYNES, please
(ROBERT JEYNES,
sworn)
MR LATHAM
Mr Jeynes can you start please this morning by telling
us your full names?
ROBERT JEYNES
Robert Thomas Jeynes.
MR LATHAM
I think you are a self-employed car delivery driver, are
you not?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
is that a job you have done for about five or six years?
ROBERT JEYNES
it is.
MR LATHAM
and were you doing it in August last year?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think that involves you delivering a car obviously in
one direction and then having to get to another point
before collecting another car to take it somewhere else?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's right, yes.
MR LATHAM
by last year were you expected to hitch-hike from the
drop off of one car to the collection of the next car?
ROBERT JEYNES
that is the way I do it, yes.
MR LATHAM
that's the way you do it?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think you carry (inaudible) around with you?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's right, yes.
MR LATHAM
does that make it easier sometimes to get a lift?
ROBERT JEYNES
it does, yes I don't think I would get a lift without
it.
MR LATHAM
I want to ask you about Tuesday, 6 August last year, the
first delivery from Birmingham?
ROBERT JEYNES
from Birmingham.
MR LATHAM
from Birmingham, sorry, to car auctions in Darlington?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
then worked your way across the country until you ended
up at Grimsby town centre?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
what sort of time would it have been that you got to Grimsby?
ROBERT JEYNES
working backwards from when I left Birmingham it probably
would have been round about 12.30, quarter past 12, 12.30,
something like that. I didn't have watch on so I can't
be certain of the time.
MR LATHAM
where was the next place you had to get to from Grimsby?
ROBERT JEYNES
a small town called Alford.
MR LATHAM
that's south of Grimsby I think isn't it?
ROBERT JEYNES
Yes.
MR LATHAM
sort of south east?
ROBERT JEYNES
Yes.
MR LATHAM
not on the coast, but certainly towards the coast?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's right.
MR LATHAM
were you intending, if you could, to get there by hitch-hiking?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you get a lift straight away, or did you have to wait
a bit before you got one?
ROBERT JEYNES
I had to walk out of the town centre of Grimsby to get
to a suitable point to actually hitch a lift and then
I got a lift fairly quickly after that.
MR LATHAM
how far did that first lift take you?
ROBERT JEYNES
not very far, just to- just near a town called North Thoresby,
I think the town is called.
MR LATHAM
I think you were by this stage on the A16, weren't you?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
I would like you to have look - I'm not asking you to
identify specific places on the map, but I think we are
looking at Grimsby up on the coast here, are we not?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
and I think, in fact, you were up getting the first lift
just a few miles south, is that right?
ROBERT JEYNES
the first lift.
MR LATHAM
I have got the arrow precisely where you were but you
went a few miles south - you were intending to get to
this sort of area down here?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's right, yes.
MR LATHAM
you were looking for another lift at North Thoresby on
the A 16, and was there a large public house somewhere?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, there was.
MR LATHAM
was this an easy lift or did you have to wait rather a
long time?
ROBERT JEYNES
well, I had to wait about 30 minutes, the problem was
it was a fairly fast road so not everyone will stop anyway.
MR LATHAM
did there come a time, however, when you did get a lift?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
now you will appreciate I want to ask you in some detail
about that. let's start the beginning. the car that gave
you a lift, what happened, how did it come to a halt?
ROBERT JEYNES
well, like a lot of cars on that road it was travelling
quite fast, and it came up towards me and it went past
me. Then I heard the it brake pretty sharply. I turned
round and seen it had gone past me and come to a stop
and then it started to reverse back.
MR LATHAM
right. What colour of car was it?
ROBERT JEYNES
red.
MR LATHAM
what sort of size?
ROBERT JEYNES
a small hatchback.
MR LATHAM
how many doors?
ROBERT JEYNES
four.
MR LATHAM
a four-door hatchback?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
so with the hatch the fifth door?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
so as soon as you realised it had stopped and was reversing
back towards you, did you begin to walk towards it?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
how many people in the car?
ROBERT JEYNES
two.
MR LATHAM
and the sex of each of them?
ROBERT JEYNES
one male and one female.
MR LATHAM
who was driving?
ROBERT JEYNES
the male.
MR LATHAM
The man obviously in the driving seat, where was the woman
in the car?
ROBERT JEYNES
the passenger seat.
MR LATHAM
at the front?
ROBERT JEYNES
at the front, yes.
MR LATHAM
as you approached the car, was either the driver or the
passenger doing anything in relation to items within the
car?
ROBERT JEYNES
I think the driver was sort of leaned round and moving
some items from the back seat where I was going to sit
behind the passenger, pushing them out the way.
MR LATHAM
as you approached the vehicle, I take it you were going
to the rear near side door, were you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
so he seemed to be doing something on the back seat to
clear that half of the seat?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's it, yes.
MR LATHAM
can I jump ahead? You got into this car----?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
----and you were given a lift?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
approximately how far were you taken on this lift?
ROBERT JEYNES
having looked at the map and calculated, it was about
12 kilometres.
MR LATHAM
how long would you have actually been in the car?
ROBERT JEYNES
roughly about 10 minutes.
MR LATHAM
did you get into the car before anything was said or was
your intended destination mentioned first of all?
ROBERT JEYNES
I think they asked me where I was going.
MR LATHAM
did you tell them?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
that is just off the A16?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did the driver say?
ROBERT JEYNES
as I got in the car he said "You know I'm going that
way, get in", and I started to talk to him about
where he was going, to find out how far down that road
he was actually going and how far I could get a lift.
MR LATHAM
what was he saying about it?
ROBERT JEYNES
he said he was on the way to Soham.
MR LATHAM
did he mention how far he would be able to take you?
ROBERT JEYNES
not at time. I think he said he would be turning off round
about Louth.
MR LATHAM
so that's about as far as you were going to get with him?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you have a map with you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
I suppose it is essential to do what you were doing. Did
you get the map out once he mentioned Louth?
ROBERT JEYNES
I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
did that suit you in the sense that he was taking you
towards Halford?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
who mentioned Soham of the two in the car?
ROBERT JEYNES
the male actually mentioned where they were going.
MR LATHAM
and what was your reaction to that? This was Tuesday morning,
the 6th August last year?
ROBERT JEYNES
I said, "Soham - that rings a bell", because
obviously I had heard of it somewhere but I couldn't remember
where.
MR LATHAM
and which of the two of them responded to that, "that
rings a bell"?
ROBERT JEYNES
the female did.
MR LATHAM
what did she say?
ROBERT JEYNES
She said it is where the two girls have gone missing.
MR LATHAM
At the moment she said that did that announcement mean
anything to you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, I had seen it on the news, yes.
MR LATHAM
did you in fact, had you ever been to Soham in your life?
ROBERT JEYNES
no.
MR LATHAM
Do you have any idea in fact of its size?
ROBERT JEYNES
No, I just presumed it was a very small town.
MR LATHAM
assuming it was a small town, when she said it is where
the two girls had gone missing, did you make an observation?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, I asked if they knew the girls.
MR LATHAM
and the response?
ROBERT JEYNES
the female said she used to be their classroom assistant.
MR LATHAM
at that point did the man say something?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, he said straight away then that, he said that up
until the woman who appeared on the television the previous
night, who had supposedly seen them, he said, "I
was the last one to see them alive", and he said
the police had already searched his house and interviewed
him.
MR LATHAM
once you had realised that Soham equals the two missing
girls and it meant something to you, had you in fact seen
anything on the television or read anything in the newspapers
by that Tuesday as you were having that lift, which related
to a report of a sighting by a woman?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's it, I had seen the woman being interviewed on the
television, saying that she had seen them, I think it
was on the, early on the Monday morning.
MR LATHAM
so when he said the woman on the television had supposedly
seen them, you knew what he was talking about?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
now, during the course of this short discussion about
Soham and the two girls, did either of the people you
were talking to, or who were talking to you, seem in any
way upset by what you were discussing?
ROBERT JEYNES
not at all, no.
MR LATHAM
What was the demeanour of each of the two, would you take
them in turn, please?
ROBERT JEYNES
the female spoke a lot more than the male did, he didn't
really say much at all apart from little bits. but she
was turned round towards me talking sort of her arm on
the back of the chair, turning round facing me. As she
was talking and telling me about it, it was just basically
she was very cold and there was no emotion there.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
not your expectation.
MR LATHAM
you couldn't detect any emotion anyway?
ROBERT JEYNES
no.
MR LATHAM
turning to the man, he didn't say as much you say, but
what was his demeanour generally in the motor car during
the 10 minutes you were with them?
ROBERT JEYNES
just basically normal.
MR LATHAM
yes. Now, as you were approaching Louth you just obviously
had to start thinking about your next move to get down
to your destination, was there any discussion in the car
about what you might do next?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, I found out whereabouts he was going to turn off
the main A16 and there was talk of whether there was a
bus service that ran from Louth to Alford. Sometimes when
going off the main road it is just as easy to get a local
bus.
MR LATHAM
did either of them seem to have any local knowledge or
not?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes. The female asked the male whether he knew if there
was a bus service that ran from Louth to Alford and he
said that he thought there was and he offered to stop
to let me out to go to, pointed me in the direction of
the bus station.
MR LATHAM
now, as best you can, can you fix a time for this journey
with these two people?
ROBERT JEYNES
it was round about quarter past, 20 past one, I would
imagine.
MR LATHAM
is that when you were picked up, quarter past, 20 past?
ROBERT JEYNES
Around about that, yes, working back from when----
MR LATHAM
then we add about 10 minutes for the journey down to the
outskirts of Louth. Did they in fact take you into Louth?
ROBERT JEYNES
no.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I understand there is no dispute about the identity
that the two people in the car were the two defendants?
Can I ask you something about the inside of the car, if
I may, to see what you can recollect about that. You describe
a small four door hatch back?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
and it was red. Can you remember the colour of the interior?
ROBERT JEYNES
I think the back seat actually was covered with a blanket.
MR LATHAM
I would like to ask you about that. You actually sat on
the back seat didn't you?
ROBERT JEYNES
Yes.
MR LATHAM
as this was a small car, how in fact were you sitting
in the car?
ROBERT JEYNES
I was sort of sitting with my knees pointing towards the
centre.
MR LATHAM
so slightly round over to one side?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did you do with- your left shoulder would be against
the door, obviously, or near the door, what did you do
with your right hand and arm?
ROBERT JEYNES
it was resting on the back of the seat.
MR LATHAM
yes. Now, it being a hatch back, of course, there would
be access over the back seat into the boot area?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
was there a fitted parcel shelf in there?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
the type that lifts up as you----?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes. I rested my hand across the back seat with my fingers
wedged between the parcel shelf and the seat.
MR LATHAM
you were telling us about something over the back seat.
Just describe what it felt like, what it looked like as
you were sitting in it and, indeed, touching it with your
hand?
ROBERT JEYNES
it felt as though it was like a soft fleecy type blanket,
I think it could have been a green colour but I can't
be 100 per cent certain because----
MR LATHAM
soft and fleecy like, what sort of weave did have?
ROBERT JEYNES
well, just very----
MR LATHAM
did it take your mind back to a particular piece of fabric
in your own life?
ROBERT JEYNES
that's it, yes. We used to have one when my stepson was
a young boy that was similar, like a sort of cot type
blanket that he had when he was young.
MR LATHAM
did you notice something about the edge, any of the edge
of this material which is sitting on the back seat?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, it had like a silky type edge to it.
MR LATHAM
where did you see that in relation to this piece of----?
ROBERT JEYNES
I think that was hanging sort of below the seat along
the edge, the bottom overhanging the seat.
MR LATHAM
over the (inaudible)?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
whatever this was, did it cover all, most or just part
of the rear seat?
ROBERT JEYNES
I think it was all the seat.
MR LATHAM
right across onto the part you weren't sitting on?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
now, would you describe it as a light or a heavy weight
material?
ROBERT JEYNES
fairly light weight.
MR LATHAM
and the colour you thought it was?
ROBERT JEYNES
like a light green.
MR LATHAM
and of course you had to sort of tussle your way in, one
knows what it is like getting into the back of a fairly
small car and you wiggle your way in and sit down. As
you sat on this material, whatever it was, did it move
about and as it were start to fall from the seat?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, not that I recollect.
MR LATHAM
how did it seem to be to you when it was on the seat?
ROBERT JEYNES
it was very - it was wedged over the back and between
the parcel shelf and the back of the seat.
MR LATHAM
casting your mind back as best as you can, do you remember
anything about the front seats?
ROBERT JEYNES
I don't think they had covers on.
MR LATHAM
what about the floor, can you remember anything about
the floor?
ROBERT JEYNES
they could have had mats on, like small mats, carpet-type
mats.
MR LATHAM
would you want to be positive about that or not?
ROBERT JEYNES
well, I can't be positive because, I mean, on that day
I had to be in, you know, seven different cars.
MR LATHAM
I quite understand, Mr Jeynes, I just wanted to get you
to tell us if this was a positive recollection or you
are just saying possibly?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, possibly. Could I have a drink, please?
MR LATHAM
How was the car being driven during the 10 minutes or
so you were in it?
ROBERT JEYNES
fairly quick, basically typical of a young man driving.
MR LATHAM
when you finally came to a halt, when you were being dropped
off, how did you come to a halt?
ROBERT JEYNES
he stopped pretty quickly and he pulled over a bit too
far over to the left because there was a bit of gravel
on the edge of the kerb and the left wheels went on the
gravel and he stopped pretty sharply.
MR LATHAM
I think the situation was this that you went on holiday
shortly after that, didn't you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, the following Saturday.
MR LATHAM
and while in Spain you saw some Sky News and saw faces
on Sky News which you recognised, didn't you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
and who got in touch; was it you getting in touch with
the police or the police getting in touch with you?
ROBERT JEYNES
I got in touch with the police from Spain.
MR LATHAM
from Spain, you telephoned them, didn't you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much, would you wait there, please
MR COWARD
Mr Jeynes, what make of car was it?
ROBERT JEYNES
I can't be 100% certain, although I deliver cars, I drive
a lot of cars, I'm not, you know, that into cars that
I know every model and whatever. I just remember it being
a small red car.
MR COWARD
so no idea what make?
ROBERT JEYNES
well, no. I just know it was a small red car because,
as I say, I just walked quickly to the car, got in it
and when I got out they just drove off, so----
MR COWARD
when the police saw you, you were able to try and help
them, I think this was in March of this year, as to what
make of car it might have been?
ROBERT JEYNES
well, I said it could well have been an Astra. I did say
I wasn't 100 per cent certain on that.
MR COWARD
do you know of the Ford Fiesta?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, I know about it now, yes.
MR COWARD
You know a Vauxhall Astra?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
what are the differences between the two?
ROBERT JEYNES
I don't know.
MR COWARD
try and describe them?
ROBERT JEYNES
I would say the old type of Fiesta is, I would say, is
fairly similar to the Astra but I don't, I wouldn't know.
If you put the old Fiesta and the old Astra next to each
other I couldn't be certain I would definitely choose
the right one.
MR COWARD
just checking your powers of recollection again, did that
car have anything dangling down from it, the sort of things
to stop car sickness?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, it could have had like one of the strips that come
down from the back.
MR COWARD
how do you mean could?
ROBERT JEYNES
well it could have. Like I have said before that day I
had actually got into seven different cars and obviously
I can't recollect everything, looking at the car, but
I do remember exactly what was said, but not what I'd
seen.
MR COWARD
but it follows from that, does it, that you have some
memory of a static conductor hanging from the car?
ROBERT JEYNES
from a car, yes it could have been that car. I didn't
say it was definitely on that car.
MR COWARD
the police didn't ask you about any other car, just this
one?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
so you have a mental picture at the time the police are
asking you that the car you travel in had a static conductor?
ROBERT JEYNES
I said, yes I remembered one, yes.
MR COWARD
did you also remember a GB sticker on the car?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes, I did say when I made my statement I didn't know
if it was on that car or not.
MR COWARD
the car stops?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
it reverses and you get in. the person who moved things
over on the back seat so there was a space for you to
sit down, was in fact, the lady, wasn't it?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, she turned round and I thought that it was her that
moved it but then whenever things was going through my
mind after I gave the statement to the police I was thinking
I remembered it was actually the man, as I was getting
in the car he leaned round and moved it over. Whether
she had moved it some of the way and he was moving it
the rest, I don't know.
MR COWARD
you are saying, I think, initially when the police asked
you what you remembered, you did say----?
ROBERT JEYNES
I did say it was the lady, yes.
MR COWARD
you have described in great detail a memory of seeing
a blanket over the back seat?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
green with a satin edge?
ROBERT JEYNES
I think it was like that, yes.
MR COWARD
are you sure that's not another car you travelled in,
Mr Jeynes?
ROBERT JEYNES
well, again, everything about what I saw I can't be 100%
certain that it was in that car.
MR COWARD
for the reason you travel?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
you hitch a lot of lifts in a lot of cars?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
so there is a real possibility that you may be wrong about
that, about the blanket?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, there was definitely a blanket there because I remember
it feeling soft, but as for what the colour was, that
I'm not 100% certain of, but there was definitely a blanket
on the back seat.
MR COWARD
if there was definitely a blanket on the back seat; it
follows doesn't it, that you know definitely what colour
it was?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, because I don't, I don't get into a car to look at
what colour things are. I remember, when I put my hand
between the seat and the back shelf, it was quite soft.
MR COWARD
but that may have been another car you travelled in?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, that was in that one. I remember that feeling soft
there.
MR COWARD
you remember it feeling soft and you can't now say what
colour it was for sure?
ROBERT JEYNES
I think it was green.
MR COWARD
you think?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
I suggest to you there was no blanket of that type, description
or colour in the car on the day you were given a lift?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, there was a blanket there.
MR COWARD
so far as conversation was concerned, when Soham cropped
up you, at first, didn't realise the significance of Soham?
ROBERT JEYNES
I knew straightaway that I had heard it recently.
MR COWARD
but what it was about?
ROBERT JEYNES
I wouldn't, I couldn't remember straightaway, no.
MR COWARD
and then the lady told you it was about the two girls
that had gone missing?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR COWARD
then you put two and two together and it clicked. You
told the members of the Jury that the man did little of
the talking; the female did more of the talking. I would
like you to listen to this remark by the man to see whether
it fits in with your recollection of what he said that
up until a woman appeared on TV who had seen them the
following morning, he thought he was the last person to
have seen them?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, that's not what he said.
MR COWARD
in what way is what you recollect different?
ROBERT JEYNES
he actually said, he actually said, "Until the woman
who was on the television last night supposedly seen them,
I was the last one to see them alive."
MR COWARD
well, I suggest he didn't say "supposedly",
I suggest he didn't say "alive", he just said
"the last person to see them"?
ROBERT JEYNES
no, he definitely said those words, because I thought
about actually saying something to him to the effect of
you want to be careful because according to, you know,
when you watch films it was always the last one who saw
them alive who ends up getting done by the police for
the murder. But I didn't say that but it went through
my mind and that wouldn't have gone through my mind if
he hadn't have said those words.
MR COWARD
Thank you Mr Jeynes.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Jeynes you said the male mentioned where you were going?
ROBERT JEYNES
Yes.
MR HUBBARD
What did he actually say?
ROBERT JEYNES
he said they were going to Louth, sorry not Louth, going
to Soham. I asked which way they were going and, as it
turned out, they were going through I think a place called
Sleaford.
MR HUBBARD
I'm going to suggest you have got that wrong. It was the
female who said they were going to Soham, wasn't it?
ROBERT JEYNES
she could well have said they were going to Soham but
he said they were going - yes, she actually said they
were going to Soham and she asked him which way they were
going and he said they were going through Sleaford.
MR HUBBARD
initially the male told you that he could give you a lift
as far as Louth?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR HUBBARD
you checked your map at that stage, didn't you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and you asked them where they were going to and the female
said Soham?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR HUBBARD
that is exactly what you told the police, wasn't it, when
you made your statement on the 29th August, I just quoted
your words to you?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR HUBBARD
no doubt about that, it was the girl, the woman?
ROBERT JEYNES
if that's what I said, yes.
MR HUBBARD
isn't that your recollection now?
ROBERT JEYNES
my recollection then - obviously it happened a lot closer
to the time then than now.
MR HUBBARD
because when she said Soham you questioned her again,
didn't you, you said to her, not to him, Soham, that rings
a bell?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR HUBBARD
so it is obvious she was the one doing the talking?
ROBERT JEYNES
yes.
MR HUBBARD
no reluctance on her part was there to tell you exactly
where she was going?
ROBERT JEYNES
no.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, anything else.
MR LATHAM
I have no re-examination.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much, Mr Jeynes. It may be you can get
home without hitching a lift
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07 08
09
|
| Contact : bernard.omahoney@bernardomahoney.com |
|
|
| Flowers in Gods Garden |
|
| Paul Pearson |
|
| Rosie Palmer |
|
| Sophie Hook |
|
| Sarah Payne |
|
| Victoria Climbie |
|
| Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman |
- Documents
- Audio
|
| The Yorkshire Ripper |
- Video
|
|
