18/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Tuesday, 18 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen
Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Michael
Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice
Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
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MR LATHAM
Sergeant Barker, please
MARK BARKER
detective Sergeant 1121 MARK BARKER serving with Cambridgeshire
constabulary, currently serving at (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
sergeant Barker, I think you were the team leader designated
to conduct a search of the Soham College site on Tuesday,
6th August, weren't you?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
and the officer who has just given evidence was one of
the constables who came with you, I think, wasn't he?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
I don't want to cover, as it were, old ground that we
have already been through, but after you had only been
on this site for a short time on that Tuesday evening,
I think you got a call from Ely Police Station instructing
you to go back to the station, didn't you?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
That was at about 6.40 in the evening?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
had you during the preceding hour or so been helped by
the caretaker, Mr Huntley, as you were going round the
school site?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
was he with you when you got that message to return to
Ely?
MARK BARKER
he was.
MR LATHAM
what was - if there was any - his reaction to that news?
MARK BARKER
I think he said words to the effect of have they found
them.
MR LATHAM
and did you indicate yea or nay to that?
MARK BARKER
no. Neither.
MR LATHAM
was it intended you should come back to the site to continue
the search at some point?
MARK BARKER
that's correct, he was made aware that week we would have
to return to continue our search, being called away at
short notice obviously, but we didn't tell him when----
MR LATHAM
the situation was you went back first thing next morning,
didn't you?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I just want to ask you about one or two things. First,
did there come a time when you wanted to have a look at
what we have been describing as the hangar building?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
Yes. Was Huntley with you at the time you spotted that
building? Do you want to look at it?
MARK BARKER
yes, but it wasn't on the action plan plan.
MR LATHAM
what happened - someone obtained a site plan of the school,
quite a detailed one, hadn't they?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
did it descend to the detail of particular classrooms
and so on?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
but that plan didn't in fact have the hangar on it, did
it?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
So it was quite a new building?
MARK BARKER
so I understand.
MR LATHAM
so you appreciated, during the morning of the Wednesday,
that this was something, as it were, new?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
that needed considering. what is your recollection of
any conversation with Mr Huntley about gaining access
to the hangar, its general status and how, in fact, you
got into the building?
MARK BARKER
basically, the hangar was divided into two parts, one
is called the CDT site which we were taken to and he did
have keys for, he informed us; the other site, split by
a partition in the middle was a PE site where games equipment
was stored. He said he didn't have a key to that site.
MR LATHAM
he didn't have a key to that. Did you gain access to one
or both sides?
MARK BARKER
In the event the CDT site was opened for us and officers
proceeded to search that, two of the search team, PCs
(inaudible) and Tee went with Mr Huntley's assistant,
Mr Gee, whereupon we found the actual PE side was unlocked.
MR LATHAM
it was unlocked?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
so that's side was searched as well?
MARK BARKER
that's correct by the two officers I have just mentioned.
MR LATHAM
we have heard already the search at this side on the site
was for, as it were, two girls wasn't it, not for clues?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
now, I think you not only searched the Lodeside site but
went up on to Beechurst, another large school building
on the same site?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
while you were going over there, I think you wanted to
look at the gym there, didn't you, do you remember having
a conversation with Mr Huntley about a third party, about
his predecessor?
MARK BARKER
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
what did he say?
MARK BARKER
it was words to the effect of, the previous caretaker,
by the name of Michael Curtain had been either sacked
or dismissed from the school for having a relationship,
shall we say, with a pupil, he had been led to understand.
MR LATHAM
did he tell you something about that individual as a caretaker
in relation to general access to the building?
MARK BARKER
yes, he was of the opinion, albeit he said he had never
met him, that this Michael Curtain left prior to him arriving
at the school, he believed Mr Curtain may still have either
keys or access code to the alarm system.
MR LATHAM
did Mr Huntley then get in touch with someone else on
the site to give you further information?
MARK BARKER
another one of his caretaking staff assistants, Ruth.
MR LATHAM
she is called Ruth, the woman?
MARK BARKER
Ruth Oddy.
MR LATHAM
Of course he was telling you it was his predecessor and
he had not met him?
MARK BARKER
that's right.
MR LATHAM
now, you were on the site for several hours that morning,
I think, weren't you?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
can I ask you about general conversation with Mr Huntley
on the topic of the girls and in particular at a point
when that woman, Ruth Oddy, was also with you. Do you
remember Mr Huntley first of all saying anything to you
about the girls in particular in relation to his own situation?
MARK BARKER
I do. He said words to the effect of he thought he was
the last either to see them or know their whereabouts
on the night in question, being the Sunday night. When
he was asked by Ruth, I think she said words to the effect
of did Maxine see them; his reply was, no, she was in
the bath. He further went on to say he was either grooming
or walking his dog when he seen the girls on the night.
MR LATHAM
had there been any aircraft flying overhead - you were
on the site that day, the Wednesday?
MARK BARKER
yes, they had, they had most days.
MR LATHAM
anything said by Mr Huntley about that?
MARK BARKER
basically he was asking how long, how far, how detailed
the search would be for the girls.
MR LATHAM
what was your reaction when he said how far is this search
going, how detailed is it going to be - what did you say
to him, if anything?
MARK BARKER
I think I replied something to the effect of "until
we find them".
MR LATHAM
now as far as the two missing girls were concerned, did
you know their names at the time?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
should we get the picture that you only speak to him for
a couple of minutes, or was he with you, or round and
about with you, for several hours during the time you
were on the site, that Wednesday?
MARK BARKER
he was in contact with me personally probably more than
the rest of the search team because I was basically running
the written log of events that occurred.
MR LATHAM
so you had the map and you were designating officers to
search particular areas; is that the picture you are giving?
MARK BARKER
that's right, he was not with me the whole time, he went
off, unlocked doors, came back.
MR LATHAM
you needed to arrange for areas to be available for your
searching and you were using Huntley?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR LATHAM
during the time you were with him you said there was some
general conversation about the girls; did he ever refer
to them by name?
MARK BARKER
I don't recall him doing so, no.
MR LATHAM
how would he refer to them if he was talking about them?
MARK BARKER
it would be "them", or the girl".
MR LATHAM
thank you, would you wait there, please?
(Cross-examined
by MR COWARD)
MR COWARD
sergeant, on Tuesday 6th you were planning to do a major
search of the college site, weren't you?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR COWARD
it was going to take several hours, and then a message
was received that you were wanted back at Ely?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR COWARD
were you aware that a reason had been given that you were
wanted back, or were you just told all of you come back
to Ely?
MARK BARKER
Yes, it was as soon as possible get back here and there
was no questions asked, it was a get back here quick,
the phone was put down and that was it.
MR COWARD
so you were about to carry out an important job, and had
started it, and then something had cropped up which required
you to be withdrawn?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR COWARD
I suppose you and your fellow officers were very interested
to know what it was that was important enough to abandon
the search and go back to Ely?
MARK BARKER
absolutely.
MR COWARD
it seems Mr Huntley was the same?
MARK BARKER
yes.
MR COWARD
the hangar keys - are you sure your recollection is right,
that the PE side of the hangar was unlocked on the Wednesday?
MARK BARKER
this was relayed to me by my officers Tee and Windsor,
who had gone with the other gentleman Mr Gee. I actually
stood with Mr Huntley as the news was relayed back from
Mr Gee and my two officers to say it was in fact unlocked.
It was Mr Gee who actually said it to Mr Huntley and the
two officers were stood there.
MR COWARD
who said it was unlocked?
MARK BARKER
Michael Gee, the other caretaker.
MR COWARD
I suppose what Mr Gee might have said to you was that
one of the the two locks on the PE side of the hangar
was unlocked, but that he, Mr Gee, had unlocked the padlock?
MARK BARKER
no, he was saying "its unlocked", Mr Gee seemed
to think it quite out of the ordinary. It should have
been locked and it wasn't. Mr Gee was surprised that it
was unlocked, which is why he came running back to Mr
Huntley and myself to inform us of this.
MR COWARD
I think, officer, it was not until the 29th October that
you were first asked to make a statement in this case?
MARK BARKER
I can't remember the exact date, but I know it was quite
a time after the incident.
MR COWARD
was there any special reason why it took so long before
you put it in writing?
MARK BARKER
it was decided by the investigating team basically that
officers, detectives from another force, would come and
take statements from us. However, on 18th August the search
team and I got together and made the same notes together
in debriefing of events.
MR COWARD
so on 29th October you were trying to remember what happened
on 6th and 7th August?
MARK BARKER
no, because on the 18th August I had written down what
happened ten days before.
MR COWARD
may I see what you have written down?
MARK BARKER
yes . {same handed}. You see the date and time at the
top of it, whether or not the notes were made, the original
notes.
MR COWARD
one final matter, Sergeant Barker, is this At part of
your searching on another day, there was another caretaker
present called Ruth, we know her full name is Ruth Oddy?
MARK BARKER
Yes.
MR COWARD
you say, do you that whilst you were around carrying out
your search that Ruth Oddy said in the presence of Mr
Huntley "did Maxine see them? "?
MARK BARKER
that's right .
MR COWARD
and this on Wednesday, 7th August?
MARK BARKER
the second day of the search, yes.
MR COWARD
according to you, he said "no, she was in the bath"?
MARK BARKER
that's correct.
MR COWARD
I suggest, officer, that that conversation, including
what Ruth Oddy is claimed to have said, simply did not
happen?
MARK BARKER
it did, because Michael Gee was there, so was the other
search officers, about five people in total there, and
Ruth was no more than a meter and a half from me when
she actually said it.
MR COWARD
let's go through people you say were in a position to
hear this conversation. Mr Huntley, Ruth Oddy, obviously,
yourself, Michael Gee?
MARK BARKER
yes, he was there.
MR COWARD
carry on?
MARK BARKER
and two other search officers but I can't remember who.
MR COWARD
there were other search officers?
MARK BARKER
it could well have been PCs Tee and Windsor .
MR COWARD
Tee and Winter?
MARK BARKER
no, Windsor like the Duke of Windsor.
MR COWARD
and as you recollected they were all near to you enough
to hear that being said?
MARK BARKER
I was close to Ruth because she was no more than a meter
and a half away and he actually asked Mr Huntley what
we had just spoken about, which is how I managed to hear
the conversation so clearly.
MR COWARD
I suggest there was no such conversation. Thank you.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much, Mr Barker
(The
witness withdrew)
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