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18/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Tuesday, 18 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen
Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Michael
Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice
Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
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MR LATHAM
my Lord, I read the next statement 1349. I am not going
to call unless I am asked, Constable Butcher who, again,
is a searching officer both pre- and post discovery. He
is here if anybody wants him, covering ground that has
not been challenged during the course of the morning.
My Lord, it is the statement of Tom Fredericks, a Senior
BBC news producer, page 1349 "I am a senior producer
for BBC news, working predominantly for News at Ten. recently
I have been working with news teams on the disappearance
of the gate from Beechurst towards the college."
The male began to talk to him. He said words to the effect
"'I hear they that all police have gone to Ely'.
I began to chat to the male about the interest in the
Ely angle, because I did not know about this development.
The male discussed how odd the case was, the girls have
disappeared. I noticed the male had with him a bunch of
keys. I believe there was more than one key on the bunch
as it registered with me that this was the caretaker and
his girlfriend who were relevant to the Soham news items
I was involved with.
I would describe the male as white, with a dark top, blue.
He was around five foot six, with short hair and a northern
accent. He had a slight build. The female was white with
dark hair, wearing a neutral top, maybe light coloured.
I think she was slightly taller than the male. I cannot
recall the female saying anything at all.
I began to walk back to the BBC vehicles, which were parked
near the college hall, to progress the Ely development,
which the male had spoken to me about. The male followed
me with the female. I stopped at the vehicles as I saw
the male walk towards a house that I subsequently discovered
was the caretaker's house. just prior to that, the male
had told me he had spoken to the girls on Sunday.
I can say the male had made efforts to speak to me, I
had not approached him. By this time the light was fading.
About 20 or 30 minutes later the male reappeared from
his house on his own. He approached me again and asked
if I had found anything else out about Ely. I told him
that I had contacted the police but got no answer, and
that I didn't know any more. He went back into his house
again.
Later, around 9 pm, he again came out of his house and
again asked me if I had heard anything. He was becoming
a nuisance by now. I told him I hadn't heard anything.
He made a comment like, they won't find anything sitting
in the police station. He did come out again and by this
time I was editing the package for the Ten o'clock News.
it appeared as if he was trying to see into the edit van
which we do not like.
I eventually shook his hand and he left." Then he
later identified the man as Ian Huntley and he also indicates
that he had spoken to Huntley on a mobile telephone number,
and he gives the number which is on the attribution (inaudible).
He said he had been on that mobile telephone number. "
I wanted to discuss the card given to his girlfriend by
the girls. He was reluctant to allow an interview."
SARAH LEE, please, page 1355, my Lord, page 10 of the
chronology, on the Tuesday, the last entry on the chronology
for the Tuesday. Can you start please by telling us your
full name?
SARAH LEE
special Constable SARAH LEE based at (inaudible) police
station, Cambridge.
MR LATHAM
I think on the evening of Tuesday, 6th August last year
you were due to attend Parkside Police Station for a lecture
that was supposed to be happening at 7.30 that evening?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I think in the light of the disappearance of Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman you were asked to go over to Soham
to assist in the town during the evening, were you not?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I think you went with two other special constables, in
particular a David Fuller?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
you went in a marked police van, arrived first of all
at the college and then went up to St Andrew's Primary
school at the other end of the site?
SARAH
LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
did you meet there Inspector (inaudible) who was the senior
officer on site that night?
SARAH LEE
no, we didn't, we rang him, special constable (inaudible)
rang him on the phone.
MR LATHAM
I think you were asked to do a high visibility foot patrol
within Soham?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
did you all - that's you and your fellow officers - walk
off in different directions but into the centre of Soham?
SARAH LEE
that's correct, we paired up, I paired up with special
Constable fuller.
MR LATHAM
did you in fact work at that task for at least an hour,
probably longer?
SARAH LEE
that's right, just over an hour.
MR
LATHAM
obviously it would start to get dark around 9 -ish?
SARAH LEE
I suppose so, yes.
MR LATHAM
over mobile equipment, was it decided you would all start
making your way back to the van you had come in?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
who was with who at that stage?
SARAH
LEE
With special Constable David Fuller.
MR
LATHAM
did you return to the school site from one end of the
site near a bridge over a stream?
SARAH
LEE
that is correct, we returned from the opposite direction
(inaudible).
MR LATHAM
can you see the Lode stream running left to right on the
map there. Were you approaching somewhere at the top of
the plan?
SARAH LEE
sorry, where do you mean?
MR LATHAM
you can see the blue Lode stream running across the plan,
Sand Street with the war memorial, Sand Street you see
the war memorial there, were you coming back into the
college site at the end of your time in Soham from the
top of the plan or from somewhere down at the bottom?
SARAH LEE
where is the bridge?
MR LATHAM
there is a bridge in Sand Street which goes over the Lode
and then a small bridge at the bottom of College Road?
SARAH LEE
yes, it was towards the bottom.
MR LATHAM
the College Road part?
SARAH LEE
yes.
MR LATHAM
you are coming down College Road into the school site?
SARAH LEE
that's right.
MR LATHAM
I think we have established that when you left the site,
you had left your van somewhere up near St Andrews School,
had you not?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
which of course is at the other end of the site, up here?
SARAH LEE
that's right.
MR LATHAM
you came over the bridge and as you do, you are confronted
by a small row of houses, aren't you?
SARAH
LEE
yes.
MR LATHAM
in order to get on to the college site you have to swing
to your left and there is a large grass area and a turning
circle and you are looking at the front of the Lodeside
site?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
were you familiar with this area or not on that night
as you came on to the site?
SARAH LEE
no, I wasn't.
MR LATHAM
had you ever been there before in your life as far as
you are aware?
SARAH LEE
not to the college, no. I had been to Soham many years
before.
MR LATHAM
did you make a decision with your fellow officer as you
were coming into the site from College Road, about what
you would do as you went over to St Andrew's School?
SARAH LEE
yes we did. We thought we would check the school was secure
as we do when we are out on duties. On Friday nights we
check schools are secure and there are no youths hanging
around, and that's exactly what we planned to do that
evening.
MR LATHAM
having skirted around that little row of houses you are
now in the area of the turning circle?
SARAH
LEE
yes.
MR LATHAM
help us with where you started to go?
SARAH
LEE
we started to head across what I would describe as the
hard surface playing area and we were heading to go out
back to the vans. We were heading towards the playing
field between two buildings.
MR LATHAM
on this plan here can you help us, if I take the arrow
back, you come in through College Road, you turned left
and then come round the houses into the area of this turning
circle. where did you go next?
SARAH
LEE
we were heading across here diagonally.
MR
LATHAM
can you describe it - we can't see where you are pointing,
I think you are pointing towards the left-hand side of
the plan?
SARAH LEE
that's right. The college would be on the left-hand side.
MR LATHAM
your left?
SARAH LEE
and a small out-building on the (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
there is an area of tarmac where the arrow is now, is
that the area you are referring to?
SARAH
LEE
that's right, yes.
MR LATHAM
you said you were intending to go across the playing fields?
SARAH LEE
that's right.
MR LATHAM
as you come down this tarmac area there is a corner of
the main college building which is where I have got the
arrow now?
SARAH LEE
yes.
MR LATHAM
there is then a separate building, which we refer to as
the hangar?
SARAH LEE
right.
MR LATHAM
there is a gap between the two buildings, or indeed you
can go round the back of the hangar?
SARAH
LEE
that's right.
MR LATHAM
which way were you intent upon going on that night?
SARAH LEE
we were intending going between the two buildings.
MR LATHAM
So you would be coming across here through the two buildings
and then out on to the playing fields, is that right?
SARAH LEE
That's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
across the playing fields?
SARAH LEE
that's right.
MR LATHAM
how far did you get on that intended route before anything
happened?
SARAH LEE
not very far, we were just approaching probably that corner
that you alluded to.
MR LATHAM
the gap between the hangar?
SARAH LEE
yes, we were probably about 50 meters from there.
MR LATHAM
on the hard standing?
SARAH LEE
on the hard standing, yes.
MR LATHAM
what happened?
SARAH LEE
we were called from behind and somebody shouted, "Excuse
me, excuse me", from behind, which made us both stop.
MR LATHAM
did you turn round in the direction of the call?
SARAH LEE
we did, yes, we turned round and started going towards
the person who had shouted.
MR LATHAM
you actually began to turn round and retrace your steps?
SARAH LEE
we started walking backwards, yes.
MR
LATHAM
how far away from you was the person who had called out
to you?
SARAH LEE
about 20 meters at that stage, but we were walking towards
each other by then.
MR LATHAM
you would have covered the 20 meters very quickly, ten
paces each or so?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
how had those words that first attracted your attention,
in what way were they uttered?
SARAH
LEE
they were quite sharp. It made me jump and I quickly turned
round, it was a sharp abrupt, "Excuse me, excuse
me", somebody obviously wanted to speak to us.
MR LATHAM
in fact, how were you dressed on that night?
SARAH LEE
in high visibility clothing, reflective yellow jacket
with hats on.
MR LATHAM
so a uniform with a reflective over the top of the top
part?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
as you met, were you still on the hard standing?
SARAH LEE
we were, yes.
MR LATHAM
what did he say, the person who called you?
SARAH LEE
he asked us what we were doing.
MR LATHAM
what were you doing?
SARAH LEE
what we were doing.
MR LATHAM
did he introduce himself at all, either by name or occupation?
SARAH LEE
yes, he introduced himself as the caretaker of the college.
MR LATHAM
so "I'm the caretaker", yes?
SARAH
LEE
I'm the caretaker, yes.
MR LATHAM
did he ask you anything?
SARAH LEE
he asked if we were involved in the hunt for the two missing
girls, the search.
MR LATHAM
what did you say?
SARAH LEE
We said not directly, but we were doing high visibility
patrols of Soham, because at that time everybody else
was diverted down the A10, the road between Cambridge
and Ely.
MR LATHAM
everyone had been diverted to the A10 as a result of some
other information which had been given?
SARAH
LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
did you explain what your intention had been, which you
have explained to us you formed as you came into the site.
What you were in fact going to do as you were walking
back to the van, did you explain that?
SARAH
LEE
we said it is no problem, we are just on our way back
and we want to just check the school is secure and there
are no youths hanging around.
MR LATHAM
what did he respond?
SARAH LEE
he responded there was no need to because he would check
the college every hour.
MR LATHAM
did he ask anything about- once he had established what
you were doing there, and he said he was the caretaker,
did he ask anything about progress?
SARAH
LEE
he asked if there was any news, but we didn't know anything
and had nothing to offer.
MR LATHAM
did he tell you something about himself in relation to
the girls?
SARAH LEE
he did, he said to me he was the last person to see or
speak to them, and then made reference to some video footage,
some CCTV footage . Transcript edited by Sky News
MR LATHAM
Did you go anywhere near that hangar building on that
night?
SARAH LEE
no, walked in the opposite direction.
MR
LATHAM
if he had not interrupted you, where would you have gone?
SARAH LEE
We would have carried on to our intended route between
the two buildings.
MR LATHAM
at the end of- he is helping you through the building,
unlocking a door, taking you through building, taking
you out the other side?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
You end up on a path somewhere near the tennis courts?
SARAH LEE
yes, we came out between another two buildings and the
tennis courts fence was then in front of us.
MR LATHAM
how long did he remain with you once you had emerged from
a locked building with him?
SARAH LEE
we said our goodbyes and walked straight off to the van.
MR LATHAM
did he say anything as you said your goodbyes?
SARAH LEE
he did. He said "Thank you for the information."
MR LATHAM
had you given him any information?
SARAH
LEE
not that we were aware of.
MR LATHAM
I think in fact you later were able to identify, from
a film, Mr Huntley as being the person who you had dealt
with, in the incident you have just described?
SARAH LEE
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
thank you, will you wait there, please
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD .
MR COWARD
officer, that Tuesday night was a shambles so far as you
were concerned?
SARAH LEE
no.
MR COWARD
you go on duty at Soham, expecting to be working there,
you are called to Ely, is that right?
SARAH
LEE
no that's not correct. (inaudible) we were going to Parkside
for a lecture.
MR COWARD
and you were called out to where?
SARAH
LEE
to Ely, Ely police station.
MR COWARD
when you got to Ely, did anybody have a clue what you
were supposed to be doing?
SARAH LEE
no, there was a lot of confusion .
MR
COWARD
where did you travel to next?
SARAH
LEE
We made a group decision to go to Soham Village College
to see if we could find anybody there to give us directions,
and en route telephoned Inspector Causer.
MR
COWARD
when you got to Soham Village College there were no police
that there all, were there?
SARAH LEE
no that's correct. We had already spoken to Inspector
Causer by then.
MR COWARD
no police activity at Soham at all when you arrived?
SARAH LEE
that's right. As I say they were all diverted down the
A10 on what was considered more urgent duties.
MR COWARD
some news had broken that there may well have been a sighting
on the A10?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR COWARD
which meant in effect, from the point of view of the caretaker
of the college, nothing was going to be happening at the
college with the police that night. That seemed to be
the position didn't it, until you turned up?
SARAH LEE
yes, that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
did you know, if you went to the college, where to contact
the caretaker?
SARAH LEE
no, no.
MR COWARD
you obviously would be aware there was a caretaker of
the entire complex?
SARAH LEE
yes.
MR COWARD
You took no steps to try to find out where he lived and
say, we are just coming to have a look round?
SARAH LEE
no, we would have no need to, no, most times we are welcomed
and left to continue our patrol.
MR
COWARD
are you left to walk around the college really to reassure
the public that there were police about?
SARAH
LEE
that's correct.
MR COWARD
then you met this man who turned out to be the caretaker?
SARAH LEE
that's correct.
MR COWARD
from the moment you explained to him why you were there,
is it fair to say he was cooperative and helpful?
SARAH LEE
that wasn't really the nature of our discussions, really,
it was general chit chat and he offered to show us the
way out, which I suppose could be construed as helpful
at the time.
MR COWARD
he bothered to unlock doors for you to be able to leave?
SARAH LEE
he did unlock doors, yes.
MR COWARD
to get back to your----?
SARAH LEE
yes.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR LATHAM
it has been put to you generally; unlocked doors to enable
you to get back to your vehicle?
SARAH
LEE
that's right.
MR COWARD
had you been intending to go through any building in order
to get back to the vehicle?
SARAH LEE
no, absolutely not, because we had no keys we wanted to
continue in the route we were going which looked like
the obvious way out.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much.
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