| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
18/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Tuesday, 18 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen
Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Michael
Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice
Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
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MR COWARD
Mr Fuller, will you give the Court your name, rank and
station, please?
DAVID FULLER
David Arthur Fuller, special Constable in Cambridgeshire.
MR COWARD
Mr Fuller I can take this very shortly. You were with
a colleague, Sarah Lee, the lady who has just given evidence
and spent some of Tuesday, 6th August of last year on
foot patrol in the centre of Soham, did you not?
DAVID FULLER
correct, my Lord.
MR COWARD
conducting an exercise that might be described as giving
reassurance to the population?
DAVID FULLER
that's correct.
MR COWARD
many other police officers having been designated to do
work outside Soham that evening?
DAVID FULLER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
there came a time when (inaudible) you came to the front
of the Lodeside building walking back towards your van.
It was getting dark and you were finishing your duty in
Soham, weren't you?
DAVID FULLER
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
somebody called out to ask effectively what you were as
up to and you went up to that individual, and he turned
out to be the caretaker?
DAVID FULLER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
all I want to ask you about is conversation you recollect
of that meeting with the caretaker?
DAVID FULLER
from the point where he called out to us, he called "Excuse
me, excuse me", and we then turned and met him roughly
in the middle of that tarmac area, he asked us if there
was anything wrong at the school, to which I replied no,
as far as we are aware. He then introduced himself by
saying, "Well, I'm the caretaker". The general
conversation from then related to the fact that he told
us he did regular patrols of the school. I asked him if
he had trouble at the school. He said "Yes",
I asked him "What sort?" and he inferred children
breaking things.
MR LATHAM
I think in fact he then helped you, or supported you back
across the site towards the van didn't he?
DAVID FULLER
that's correct, my Lord. We asked him if we could get
to St Andrew's car park the way we were going. He said
we could, he asked if we wanted him to show the way, and
he guided us through the building to the exit on the car
park side.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much.
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD .
MR COWARD
you had explained to him why you were there on the college
site? You are high visibility patrol, weren't you?
DAVID FULLER
that's correct.
MR COWARD
he was able to show you, wasn't he, when you asked, how
you could get back to where your vehicle was. He was able
to show you a gap in a chain link fence you could go through,
which was a quick way of getting to your car?
DAVID FULLER
he certainly showed us through a gap in a chain link fence,
my Lord.
MR COWARD
was that, as it turned out, near where your car was?
DAVID FULLER
sorry?
MR COWARD
was that near where your car was?
DAVID FULLER
yes, it was, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
no re-examination thank you very much.
(the
witness withdrew).
MR LATHAM
my Lord, 1321, I will read a short statement, the statement
of Sergeant Mead, and on the chronology page 11 we are
on to Wednesday morning. Statement of Christopher William
Mead. I am a duty sergeant with Cambridgeshire police
training unit, currently seconded to Operation Fincham
murder inquiry as part of the family liaison team specifically
allocated to work with the Wells family since 6th August
2002.
My role is to deal with the range of issues relating to
the relationship between the entire team and family, such
as keeping them informed of developments, providing emotional
support and accompanying the family to press and public
conferences. As part of this role, I escorted the Wells
family to a press conference arranged for 10 am on Wednesday,
7th August 2002, which was held in the main hall of Soham
Village College.
We arrived in time and entered through the side door.
On conclusion, about 10.30, we again exited the same side
door near to which we were outside waiting for the press
to assemble on the front lawn of the college for a photo
shoot. At that time there was Kevin and Nicola Wells,
Les and Sharon Chapman together with three further family
liaison officers, Sergeant Trudy Skills, Detective Constable
Brian Steven and Detective Constable Amanda Bligh, all
of whom are Cambridgeshire officers.
At that time I noticed a white male with short, dark hair
in his late twenties walk towards (inaudible) from the
general direction of the caretaker's house; I don't recall
what he was wearing. He walked over and then stood next
to Kevin Wells, who at the time was stood about one to
one-and-a-half meters from me.
I believe where we were going would have been away from
the press line of sight. I became aware that Kevin and
this male were in conversation and, although I wasn't
listening, or could hear every word, the general feel
and tone led me to believe this male was one of many people
Kevin knew within the village.
I overheard Kevin explaining how they had been out looking
for Holly, his daughter. The male then replied, "Oh,
I didn't realise it was your daughter", which I took
as a response to the fact that Holly Wells was one of
the missing children. About this time I was made aware
the press were assembled and ready to take photographs
of the family.
I was conscious of the fact that Kevin was still talking
to this male while the rest of the families were ready
to go. As a result I then approached Kevin and explained
that we needed to go. At that Kevin introduced the male
to me as the school caretaker, at which I recall thinking
that he was young to be the caretaker, compared to my
own experience of caretakers.
I now know this male to be Ian Huntley. As we shook hands
I noticed he had gel on his hair which was flat on his
head and forward to his face. Kevin explained Huntley
had been out on the first night searching for the girls,
he went on to say that Huntley wanted to change a statement
he had made as he had got his timings wrong. This was
toned in such way that I believe Kevin was asking if I
could sort this out. Huntley then said "yes, I have
now realised I have got my timings wrong."
I asked Huntley if this was part of a written statement,
which he confirmed. Still being aware that the families
and press were still waiting I explained to Huntley that
I would feed his request into the incident room and someone
would probably come and take a further statement from
him. I don't recall, nor did I take or make a note of,
any specific times Huntley may have said.
At that I accompanied Kevin and the families round to
the front lawn; I can't say where Huntley went to from
there. Since that time I have had no further involvement
to Huntley." That's, of course, page 11 of the chronology
at 10.30 or thereabouts, as you can see.
MR
LATHAM
Mr Mahoney, will you give the Court your full name, please?
MARTIN MAHONEY
Martin James Mahoney.
MR LATHAM
Mr Mahoney, I think in August last year you were a self-employed
salesman selling cleaning materials to commercial premises,
including schools, is that right?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
that's right.
MR LATHAM
I think one of the schools you supplied in Soham - you
have been doing that for a good six years?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
that's right.
MR LATHAM
I think last summer in 2002, you discover that - sorry
in 2001, you discovered that the caretaker you had been
working with had been dismissed, and you were going to
have to wait until a new caretaker was appointed?
MARTIN MAHONEY
that's right.
MR LATHAM
did you, towards the end of the year, come to meet that
new caretaker?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think you knew him as Ian Nixon, did you not?
MARTIN MAHONEY
I knew him as Ian Nixon, yes.
MR LATHAM
and did you in fact refer to him by the surname Nixon
from then onwards?
MARTIN MAHONEY
Ian basically, I didn't really----
MR
LATHAM
did you ever change to Ian Huntley during the time you
dealt with him?
MARTIN MAHONEY
no, didn't realise it was Ian Huntley until I saw him
on the television.
MR LATHAM
keep your voice up, I know you are talking to me but everyone
needs to hear?
MARTIN MAHONEY
all right.
MR LATHAM
I think, as you had done with the previous caretaker,
once you had established a working relationship with Ian
Nixon, you then would visit the site on a fairly regular
basis, is that correct?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
about how often?
MARTIN MAHONEY
six to eight weeks.
MR LATHAM
yes. I want to move on to a time when- I think the early
part of August of last year. Were you aware of the disappearance
of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman as a result of the
national publicity of that event?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
I was aware of it, obviously, when it came on to the television.
MR LATHAM
you supplied Soham Village College and you knew they came
from Soham, and the disappearance had happened in Soham,
I take it?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think on Wednesday, 7th August, you called in at the
site as you were in the general area of Soham, didn't
you?
MARTIN MAHONEY
the reason I called that day was on a previous visit I
had sold certain floor polishing materials, among other
things which Ian wanted me to. I said I would call round
because he didn't really know how to apply them, so I
said the next time I'm round I will call in, which was
that day.
MR LATHAM
what sort of time did you get to the site on that Wednesday?
MARTIN MAHONEY
by round about 11 o'clock.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, the date of the statement was amended subsequently.
I think you covered the whole area of the college, which
was full of vans and cars belonging to press and media
people, correct?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you have some difficulty parking your own vehicle?
MARTIN MAHONEY
a little bit, yes.
MR LATHAM
Did you find Ian Nixon? I'm referring to him as Ian Nixon
as that's how you knew him?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you find him on the site?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
I parked my car outside the hall which is the back of
the (inaudible) normally.
MR LATHAM
don't worry where you parked. Did you find Ian Nixon,
where was he when you found him?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
I found him in his office.
MR LATHAM
We know he has, or had, access to more than one office,
which office was it that you are referring to?
MARTIN MAHONEY
the one at the back of the stage in the hall.
MR LATHAM
was he there on his own, or were there other members of
staff there as well?
MARTIN MAHONEY
there was other members of staff there.
MR
LATHAM
you had just walked past the media people and you told
us you knew of the disappearance of Holly and Jessica
from the press reports. Did you say anything about that
when you arrived in the office?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
not at that point. I don't think l did.
MR
LATHAM
How did it start, any conversation you had in the office?
MARTIN MAHONEY
well, the conversation as I walked in, I said "Good
morning", and Ian said to me "I'm a bit busy
today", or something like that.
MR
LATHAM
Sorry, he was a bit busy?
MARTIN MAHONEY
he was too busy today to see me, he was just on his way
to the senior principal, the other side of the school.
I said I will come for the walk anyway and I walked up
to the principal's office. He went into the office and
came back out again and we walked back down to the office.
MR LATHAM
you travelled across the Beechurst site which is where
the principal's office was?
MARTIN MAHONEY
right.
MR LATHAM
then back?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
was he making any particular complaint or referring to
anything in particular as you were walking backwards and
forwards?
MARTIN MAHONEY
just generally saying things like, I think I said to him
at that stage, you know, you look awful, or something
like that, and he said, well, it's because I have been
up 24 hours, whatever it was, and I said to him, why is
that? Because I have got to keep all the media vans plugged
in and so forth and run round after them, generally speaking,
because of the school.
MR LATHAM
having walked back down the site from the Beechurst part
of the site, did he invite you somewhere?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
we----
MR LATHAM
Did he invite you somewhere?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
he asked me if I would like to go for a cup of coffee,
yes.
MR LATHAM
where was he inviting you to go for a coffee?
MARTIN MAHONEY
it was, I think, to his house.
MR LATHAM
his house?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
Had you been to his house before?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
Yes, I had been there before, yes.
MR
LATHAM
did you actually go into the house?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
was the house empty when you went in or was there someone
else there?
MARTIN MAHONEY
I can't really - I did meet Maxine Carr in there, she
was in there when I went in or - whether she came in while
I was there I can't remember.
MR LATHAM
had you in fact met Maxine Carr before that day?.
MARTIN MAHONEY
oh, yes, yes.
MR LATHAM
you had?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
as you went, do you recollect saying anything to him?
MARTIN MAHONEY
as I was walking down from the back of the stage part
of the school around the green towards his house, I said
to him, "Awful business", something like that.
MR LATHAM
it is an awful business?
MARTIN MAHONEY
this is an awful business, that business, something like
that, I suppose they will catch them or something, and
he said to me, no, they will be dead. So I immediately
said, "Well, I have got three daughters of my own,
if they were mine ... "
MR LATHAM
Sorry, I am finding it very difficult to hear you?
MARTIN MAHONEY
I have got three daughters of my own and if one of my
daughters had been missing children, you wouldn't give
up after a couple of days - so----?
MR
LATHAM
You actually said, "You don't give up after a couple
of days", or words to that effect?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
once you got back into the house, whether Maxine Carr
was there or came in shortly after, you went into the
house there came a time when she was there?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and where were you, which room in the house?
MARTIN MAHONEY
in the lounge.
MR LATHAM
In the lounge?
MARTIN MAHONEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
did you have your coffee by then?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
yes, I think we had just got the coffees.
MR
LATHAM
did you say anything to Maxine car?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
I said a similar thing, this is a, I think I actually
said "This is a bloody sad affair", or something
like that and with that she handed me, off the mantel
piece or shelf, a card which was from- I looked at it
and it was like children do at that age, a drawing of
people, stick people, and said something like, "We
love you Miss", or "We miss you so much",
or something like that.
MR LATHAM
I would like you to look at the----.
MR
COWARD
I'm having substantial difficulty hearing the witness.
MR LATHAM
can I ask you this, I would like you to look if----
MR COWARD
I would prefer to go outside, my Lord.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
let's rise, (inaudible)
{short adjournment}.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible) any conversation that took place in relation
to the card that he was shown that morning. You said it
was Maxine Carr that passed it to you?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
Yes.
MR COWARD
what do you recollect, if anything, of what she said about
the card?
MARTIN MAHONEY
she just said "Oh look at this, here is the card.
I left last week and this is the card that they sent me
as a, you know, a sort of (inaudible) sort of thing."
MR COWARD
I am finding it very difficult to hear you?
MARTIN MAHONEY
she passed me the card and said "Look what the children
sent me last week, it came through the letterbox Saturday
night", whenever it was, and that was it.
MR LATHAM
"look at the card
they sent me last week, it came through the letterbox",
when?
MARTIN MAHONEY
on Saturday night, I think she said.
MR
LATHAM
when you said- you gave two days a moment ago,?
MARTIN MAHONEY
I said Saturday or Sunday.
MR LATHAM
Saturday or Sunday?
MARTIN MAHONEY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Was she saying Saturday or Sunday or was she specifying
one of the two days and you can't remember which?
MARTIN MAHONEY
I can't remember which.
MR LATHAM
thank you, will you wait there, please.
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD.
MR COWARD
according to your account of the matter, Mr Mahoney, was
this a delivery by the postal service or personal?
MARTIN MAHONEY
personal.
MR COWARD
as you recollect it, who had made the delivery?
MARTIN MAHONEY
can I just say when Ian Huntley came back in the house
and mentioned about this, this card, he said that oh yes,
the card came through the door Saturday night or Sunday,
whichever it was, and - oh no, the door went, that was
it, the door went, meaning the letterbox. I went to the
door and there was this card on the floor. I picked it
up and as I walked past the window which faces the green,
which look over towards the leisure centre, I saw them
walking away and I think I was the last person to see
them
MR COWARD
You have a distinct memory, have you, Mr Mahoney, of this
conversation?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR COWARD
that the card, a photocopy of which you have in front
of you was, according to Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr,
personally delivered through their letterbox?
MARTIN MAHONEY
that's what they said "The children obviously put
it in the letterbox." I don't think you get a post
at half past six at night.
MR COWARD
Ian Huntley actually saw the girls walking away from the
door after delivering the letter?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
that's what he said to me.
MR COWARD
are you sure about that?
MARTIN MAHONEY
I'm positive.
MR COWARD
are you as positive about it as you are positive about
"They are dead", or "They will be dead",
said by Mr Huntley?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR COWARD
I suggest on that topic that what Mr Huntley said to you
was "as time goes on you start fearing the worst",
or words to that effect?
MARTIN MAHONEY
he didn't say that to me.
MR COWARD
and you are sure you are right on that, as you are about
the card through the letterbox.
MR HUBBARD
did that card have written on it "You are the best
teacher".?
MARTIN MAHONEY
not as I can see, no.
MR HUBBARD
you told the police, didn't you, that the card she showed
you had those words written on it?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
I said to that effect.
MR HUBBARD
I read your statement "...and she handed the card
to me, I only glanced at the card, but it read something
like 'You are the best teacher, we will miss you.'"?
MARTIN MAHONEY
that's right .
MR HUBBARD
missing you is there, but there is nothing about you are
the best teacher, is there?
MARTIN MAHONEY
not on that card, no.
MR HUBBARD
in fact, you will recollect, I suggest that there were
a number of cards on the mantel piece?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
the only one I recollect is the one that was passed to
me.
MR HUBBARD
did you see other cards in the house?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
no.
MR HUBBARD
you only glanced at it, didn't you?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
I did.
MR HUBBARD
how can you say that's the card?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
as I said previously, I did glance at it and read it and
they said it was put through the door and I gave it back.
MR HUBBARD
what is it about the card that makes you feel sure it
is the one she gave you?
MARTIN MAHONEY
the smiling face.
MR HUBBARD
you didn't mention that in your statement, did you?
MARTIN MAHONEY
no, I didn't .
MR HUBBARD
why not? It stands out, doesn't it?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
it does, yes.
MR HUBBARD
like a sore thumb?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
surely that would have been the most important thing to
be able to remember it by; the circular face right in
the middle of that card?
MARTIN MAHONEY
yes.
MR HUBBARD
Why didn't you remember that?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
you don't remember everything, do you.
MR HUBBARD
you have got the wrong card, I suggest, Mr Mahoney.
MR LATHAM
my learned friend put earlier to the witness, he said
it was the card, can I ask the defence to make clear what
the position is? When I was examining the witness-in-chief,
my learned friend said, "That's the card", so
I can understand now what is being said.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
I don't think counsel has to answer your questions but
it may depend on how I re-examine if I do not know whether
- he does not have to answer your questions.
MR HUBBARD
I am happy the clear it up, I am told by my (inaudible)
equally I have to say (inaudible).
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
anyway, it is withdrawn, the earlier point.
MR LATHAM
I am grateful. How many cards were you shown that day?
MARTIN MAHONEY
one card.
MR LATHAM
who produced the card you were shown?
MARTIN
MAHONEY
Maxine.
MR LATHAM
when the card produced to you was shown by Maxine what
was the topic of conversation, the general topic?
MARTIN MAHONEY
the general topic of conversation at that time was the
police, as I said before, just come in, they have been
here before and been upstairs and----
MR
LATHAM
but what was the overall topic of the conversation in
the house that day?
MARTIN MAHONEY
generally we would speak about what was actually going
on in and around the house at that time, and the police.
MR LATHAM
what were the police there for on the site?
MARTIN MAHONEY
they were there obviously to try and find Holly and Jessica.
MR LATHAM
yes. I have no other re-examination.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much indeed
(the witness
withdrew)
MR JUSTICE MOSES
two o'clock, ladies and gentlemen.
(Luncheon
adjournment)
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