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18/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Tuesday, 18 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen
Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Michael
Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice
Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
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MR LATHAM
I will read part of the statement , if I may, my Lord
"(inaudible) is a special contable, he was also on
duty, at the Soham College on the 6th and 7th", I
only want to deal with the 7th, the Wednesday. He says,
just putting it in context, "I was aware there had
been a press conference scheduled from the college at
10 a.m." over the page, "It was now about 8.30
when I was approached by (inaudible), she stated she had
been viewing the CCTV, showing the girls in the picture.
(inaudible) I informed them of the CCTV tape and what
had been relayed to me.
One of the officers who - I don't know his name - came
with me to the main office, together with Claire Norton,
Susan Taylor, the receptionist of the sports centre, a
search officer and myself viewed the tape. I was told
it was in a locked safe. (inaudible) Just after 10, the
press conference got under way which lasted about 25 minutes.
I just remained in the conference hall during the conference.
At about 10.30 a.m. I spoke to Inspector Shield and informed
him of the tape and was instructed to retrieve it. I went
and obtained the tape from Claire Norton and handed it
to the Inspector. I remained on site continuing a police
presence as instructed. I can't remember the exact time,
but it was after 1 p.m. the same day the man as I know
as Ian with the keys and radio came up to me and said
"I'm concerned about the people parking, blocking
the access and contravening health and safety regulations,
I have got staff on the premises".
Then Inspector Shield turned up. While the inspector was
on the phone arranging for cones to be sent", that's
cones for the parking outside the school, "I remember
this, Ian saying "What do you think happened to them?",
at the same time dipping his head slightly and giving
me a stare". 1372, my Lord, Special Constable Kerr.
MR LATHAM
could you give us your full name, rank and station, please?
MICHAEL KERR
special Constable 479 MICHAEL KERR of (inaudible) constabulary
currently based at (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
I think with your (inaudible) in August last year, weren't
you?
MICHAEL KERR
yes, I was.
MR LATHAM
Wednesday, 7th August I think, having started off at the
police station in Peterborough, you came down with other
officers in a police carrier and arrived in Soham at about
20 past two in the afternoon, didn't you?
MICHAEL KERR
I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
there came a time during the afternoon, the middle of
the afternoon, when you first met a man you later discovered
to be Ian Huntley, I think, didn't you?
MICHAEL KERR
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
and it became apparent to you that he was the caretaker
or the site manager and you had a conversation about his
function, his job, didn't you?
MICHAEL KERR
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think initially there had been concerns on the part
of Ian Huntley about various health and safety matters
hadn't there?
MICHAEL KERR
yes, there had, with car parking.
MR LATHAM
car parking and the like. I need not go into the detail
of that. But did the conversation then get on to the reason
you were there and, indeed, all the police were involved;
namely, the disappearance of the two girls?
MICHAEL KERR
it did, yes.
MR LATHAM
that's where I want to pick it up, if I may. What do you
recollect being said? Who brought the topic up?
MICHAEL KERR
I can't remember how the conversation came round.
MR LATHAM
tell us what you remember of the conversation?
MICHAEL KERR
I remember Mr Huntley asking us about----
MR LATHAM
keep your voice up?
MICHAEL KERR
sorry. I remember Mr Huntley asking us about DNA evidence.
MR LATHAM
he asked you about DNA evidence? What did he actually
say?
MICHAEL KERR
words similar to what do the police need for DNA evidence.
MR LATHAM
what answer, if any, did you give?
MICHAEL KERR
may be they need a hair, skin cells or saliva, such as
can be taken at the police station.
MR LATHAM
was it you or another police officer, Special Constable,
who was actually giving that answer about saliva, hair,
pieces of skin cell?
MICHAEL KERR
I answered him.
MR LATHAM
right. So having given that general answer about skin,
saliva, hair, did he ask you any further details about
that?
MICHAEL KERR
I can't recall in all honesty.
MR LATHAM
did you give any further detail apart from the general
one?
MICHAEL KERR
I think I said DNA could be taken from a single hair.
MR LATHAM
I think in fact, you were engaged at the site for quite
a long time, weren't you, and had contact with a number
of people during the course of the day?
MICHAEL KERR
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
you have made a long statement, but I do not intend to
ask you about all those other contents. will you sit there,
please.
Cross-examined by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
You have said to my learned friend, "I can't recall
in all honesty."
MICHAEL KERR
Yes.
MR COWARD
For a start, you did not make a note in a pocket book
of the (inaudible) did you?
MICHAEL KERR
no, I did not.
MR COWARD
And it was not until, I think, the 22nd August, that,
really, you had to cast your mind over something which
did not seem particularly significant at the time. That's
fair, is it?
MICHAEL KERR
yes, it is.
MR COWARD
Exactly who said what about DNA, and the exact words,
if any?
MICHAEL KERR
In all honesty you can't say, can you.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
there are two questions there. Could you split it up Who
and what was said are two different questions.
MR COWARD
Who actually said what? You cannot in any accuracy say,
can you?
MICHAEL KERR
I believe what I said at the time to be true, and it is
(inaudible).
MR COWARD
Even at the time you were asked to recollect it, it was
some two-and-a-half weeks after a conversation which did
not appear significant at the time, is that right?
MICHAEL KERR
it was, yes.
MR COWARD
Did you feel any difficulty at all in having this discussion
with Mr Huntley?
MICHAEL KERR
no, not at time. It didn't seem relevant.
MR COWARD
It just seemed a natural conversation to have?
MICHAEL KERR
yes, like he was interested, as any member of the public
probably was at that time.
MR COWARD
Exactly.
MR LATHAM
it has been suggested to you that you cannot remember
who, as it were, initiated the conversation, said precisely
what. Before this conversation took place, did you have
DNA on your mind?
MICHAEL KERR
no , I did not.
MR LATHAM
did you have any interest whatsoever in raising DNA with
Mr Huntley?
MICHAEL KERR
no, I did not.
MR LATHAM
I have no other re-examination.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
MR LATHAM
Special Constable Peacock, please.
Transcript
edited by Sky News
MR LATHAM
we have heard from Special Constable MICHAEL KERR, with
whom you went to Soham on Wednesday as part of a significant
police presence on the site, is that correct?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
that's correct .
MR LATHAM
I want to ask you about one topic if I may. After you
had been there some time, did you meet the school caretaker?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
I think at the time you were with special Constable Kerr,
weren't you?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
that's correct .
MR LATHAM
initially there was some discussion about health and safety
issues, I think, related to his job as caretaker and the
number of vehicles which were parked on the site.
NICHOLA PEACOCK
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
I want you to tell us about any other conversation you
recollect having on a different topic with the caretaker,
please.
NICHOLA PEACOCK
he also went on to mention about how far the search had
spread, looking how wide they were looking for the girls
and also he was asking questions on DNA.
MR LATHAM
On that topic I would like to ask you about- he was asking
you questions on DNA?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
how did the conversation go?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
He asked where would they get the DNA from, how much DNA
would they need.
MR LATHAM
did you know the answer to that or not.
NICHOLA PEACOCK
I didn't, no.
MR LATHAM
how did you respond.
NICHOLA PEACOCK
I said didn't know.
MR LATHAM
what about your fellow officer, Mr Kerr.
NICHOLA PEACOCK
my fellow officer looked at me and he shook his head and
he said he didn't know, neither of us knew at the time.
MR LATHAM
How was it raised at first, who first raised the topic
of DNA?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
the caretaker.
MR LATHAM
that was after he asked as to how far the search would
extend.
NICHOLA PEACOCK
it was----
MR LATHAM
Did you answer the question.
NICHOLA PEACOCK
no.
MR LATHAM
Did you know?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
At the end of the day it was concerned with the job I
was doing on the day.
MR LATHAM
wait there, please.
MR COWARD
do you have any recollection, officer, of the fellow officer
with you, Special Constable Kerr, actually saying to Mr
Huntley "you only need one single human hair to get
DNA"?
NICHOLA PEACOCK
to be fair, I was watching the entrance and half joining
in a conversation, when my colleague looked at me, and
I had heard the question, and I said didn't know. So to
answer you correct, I can't remember what my colleague
said .
MR COWARD
it maybe the conversation went on between Mr Huntley and
Mr Kerr, and because you weren't taking notice you can't
now remember it.
NICOLA PEACOCK
I can remember, the caretaker looked at me, he turned
his attention to me and I looked at the caretaker.
MR COWARD
you have no memory of Mr Kerr answering the question?
NICOLA PEACOCK
I can remember him saying something, but I can't answer
on behalf of him to give an honest answer of what he said.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much.
SHARON GILBERT
please page 1380, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
start please by telling us your full name?
SHARON GILBERT
my full name is SHARON GILBERT
.
MR LATHAM
I think you are a special constable based in Peterborough,
is that right?
SHARON GILBERT
that's correct, Bridge Street Police Station.
MR LATHAM
you were so based in August of last year, I think?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
on Wednesday, 7th August, together with other special
constables, you travelled down to the village of Soham,
didn't you?
SHARON GILBERT
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
had you ever been to Soham before, as far as you are aware,
in your life?
SHARON GILBERT
no, not at all, no.
MR LATHAM
at the front of Soham College, the main Lodeside site,
there is a large turning circle with an area of grass
at the centre?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
you enter that area by coming down a fairly narrow road
and then turning left and coming into the turning circle?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
is that the way, when you arrived on the site, you approached?
SHARON GILBERT
yes, it is, we went in and we turned right because obviously
the press was on the other side of the turning circle
on the sports centre side.
MR LATHAM
you remember you have a picture of a lot of press?
SHARON GILBERT
there? Absolutely, they had (inaudible) amount of satellites
on top of vehicles. They were parked so close to the actual
college area.
MR LATHAM
what sort of time did you get there?
SHARON GILBERT
quarter past five we actually arrived there and John Yaxley,
the driver of the van, he actually dropped me off. I then
handed over with SC Peacock, and she left - I think it
was about half past five - and then he returned back at
quarter past six.
MR LATHAM
I want to take you on, if I may, to about seven o'clock
that evening. Did there come a time when you were quite
close to the police van that turned up earlier on in the
late afternoon?
SHARON GILBERT
I was actually sat in the van because it had just stopped
raining again; there had been quite a few thunder storms
that day.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible)?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
were you in the driver's side of the van or the passenger
side?
SHARON GILBERT
Passenger side. I had the door open so people could see
we were still there.
MR LATHAM
was it a sliding door or a swing door?
SHARON GILBERT
a swing door.
MR LATHAM
did somebody come over to you as you were sat in the van?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
were you later able to identify that individual?
SHARON GILBERT
yes .
MR LATHAM
by virtue of a video recording you saw?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
I don't think there is any dispute it was Ian Huntley?
SHARON GILBERT
no,.
MR LATHAM
had you in fact spoken to him, or even seen him around,
on the site before this point?
SHARON GILBERT
no.
MR LATHAM
did you know immediately what his job was, or what his
relationship with the site was, or was that something
you learned after you began talking to him?
SHARON GILBERT
from the first time that he actually spoke, from what
Nicky had said when I was handing over, because she said
he had been hanging around, I straight away automatically
presumed, because he said the tennis courts would stay
open, that he was the caretaker for the site, because
nobody else would have the keys to the tennis courts.
MR LATHAM
I think you talked to him for a time didn't you?
SHARON GILBERT
yes I did.
MR LATHAM
approximately how long?
SHARON GILBERT
I think it was about 20 to 25 minutes.
MR LATHAM
was the conversation the whole time that you stayed in
the van talking through the open door?
SHARON GILBERT
yes, he was actually stood by the door well.
MR LATHAM
in the angle of the door?
SHARON GILBERT
yes, the door had opened out to that angle and he was
stood by the hinge section of the door.
MR LATHAM
was there anyone else with you in the van at the time
SHARON GILBERT
Yes, Sergeant John Yaxley.
MR LATHAM
he was the driver, I think?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
did he make an announcement at the beginning about the
school generally, about the condition of the school at
seven o'clock that night?
SHARON GILBERT
no.
MR LATHAM
how did it all start then?
SHARON GILBERT
he actually walked up to the van and mentioned about the
gates being opened, because we had been told to direct
cars to park in there, instead of parking close to the
school, and then he then went on to say the atmosphere
was not right with the press.
MR LATHAM
the atmosphere was not right with the press?
SHARON GILBERT
as if they were expecting bad news, the press were waiting
for bad news.
MR LATHAM
that was something he said to you?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
was this a flowing conversation or were there pauses?
SHARON GILBERT
pauses.
MR LATHAM
was it a conversation that you, as it were, were initiating
or was it one that he was----?
SHARON GILBERT
he was initiating, I would say.
MR LATHAM
after passing the opinion that the press were, as it were,
expecting or waiting for bad news, did another topic come
up?
SHARON GILBERT
he mentioned quite a few topics.
MR LATHAM
can you take us through some of them. The next topic you
remember him raising?
SHARON GILBERT
DNA was definitely----.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
SHARON GILBERT
DNA.
MR LATHAM
I would like, if I may, for you to try and recollect as
best you can how that arose and what each of you said?
SHARON GILBERT
he asked how long DNA evidence could be used and I basically
said that they have used it on woolly mammoths and I know
recently they used it on the Tzar family to find out if
it was the Tzar family, and I said I don't think there
was a timescale when DNA could no longer be used.
MR LATHAM
That was referring to the Russian Royal Tzar family?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
when you gave that information, as it were, was there
any reaction?
SHARON GILBERT
there was no reaction from him, apart from you could see
that he was thinking what the next question would be.
It wasn't flowing at all.
MR LATHAM
you had given him an answer to the best of your knowledge
about how long DNA would last, or you could get DNA; did
he say something else - not necessarily about anything
DNA, but did he say anything else?
SHARON GILBERT
I can't remember what order, or his sequence, because
obviously it is a very long time ago and I have just seen
the statement this morning. there was a little bit in
there about he said they had been and searched his house.
No, sorry he said he had seen the children on the Sunday
evening that they went missing.
MR LATHAM
right. Did he give any detail at all of his sighting of
the children?
SHARON GILBERT
He gave me the time and I can't remember the exact time
he gave me, but I know there was discrepancy, when it
was later on the television, about the two times. The
time he had given me was earlier than the time he had
said he had seen them on the television and also----.
MR LATHAM
take that in stages. We now jump on. Did there come a
time when you saw him being interviewed on television?
SHARON GILBERT
after.
MR LATHAM
yes, after this conversation?
SHARON GILBERT
yes, before I did my statement.
MR LATHAM
take it in stages. After your time at Soham school, on
a later day, were you watching television?
SHARON GILBERT
I think it was about the 10th.
MR LATHAM
did you see him in a television interview on your television
set?
SHARON GILBERT
yes.
MR LATHAM
during the course of the interview that you saw on your
television, did he give a time for sighting these girls?
SHARON GILBERT
I think so, yes.
MR LATHAM
now, when you saw it on the television, could you at that
stage relate it to the time that he had given you while
you were having the conversation by the van?
SHARON GILBERT
Yes.
MR LATHAM
was it the same time?
SHARON GILBERT
no.
MR LATHAM
earlier or later?
SHARON GILBERT
he told me he had seen them earlier than on the television
.
MR LATHAM
thank you. What sort of time difference was it?
SHARON GILBERT
I think it was about 15 minutes to half an hour difference.
MR LATHAM
did he say where he had seen them or what the children
had been doing when he had seen them?
SHARON GILBERT
He just said they walked past him and that he was concerned
he may have been the last person to have seen them, and
my reply to that was that's funny because on the television
they had already had - because before we were asked to
go to Soham, obviously it was on all the national news.
Anyway they had other people that had seen them at a different
time and I thought that's strange, normally it is the
last person to see them that they mention about on the
television, and I actually said have you mentioned it
to the powers above because I didn't know he had mentioned
it to anybody apart from to me. We were the first people
he was telling.
MR LATHAM
right. What did he say when you indicated that you asked
have you mentioned this to anyone?
SHARON GILBERT
he said that he had, and people had already been round
to his house, and that they had searched his house - sorry,
CID searched his house.
MR LATHAM
during the time he was talking about them, did he ever
mention their names?
SHARON GILBERT
no, he referred to the girls. I remembered that because
I have got two girls. I refer to them as girls and it
is something that stuck my mind.
MR LATHAM
when he was talking about the girls, did he mention any
other members of the girls' family, either girl's family?
SHARON GILBERT
one of the parents, one of the fathers.
MR LATHAM
what did he say about one of the fathers?
SHARON GILBERT
he said he hoped he would not be questioned because his
daughter loved him a lot.
MR LATHAM
you used the word "loved him" in the past tense?
SHARON GILBERT
absolutely, it stuck in my mind straight away, all the
time I was having this conversation these were ringing
warning bells something wasn't right.
MR LATHAM
he was using the past tense about this girl, the daughter
of the man, rather than the current tense? Down at 17.00,
it is my mistake; it is 19.00 hours, 7 pm. so it should
be 19 rather than 17.
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