18/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Tuesday, 18 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen
Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.Michael
Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice
Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
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MR LATHAM
Mr Yaxley, what is your full name?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
JONATHAN YAXLEY.
MR LATHAM
I think you are a special Constable based in the Peterborough
area, aren't you?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
you were the officer who, in fact, drove down a police
vehicle which contained, amongst others, Sharon Gilbert,
down to Soham on the 4th - on the 7th August, the Wednesday.
I don't need to deal with what happened when you got to
the school site apart from the time when you returned
to the van, having been there some time, and were sitting
- I think it was raining - and you were sitting with Sharon
Gilbert in the passenger seat?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
when a man approached - no dispute - Mr Huntley, began
a conversation in the passenger door area with the door
open?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
that's correct, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
between whom was the majority of the conversation?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
it was between my colleague, Sharon, and Mr Huntley.
MR LATHAM
could you hear what was being said?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
not really, it was only joining in little bits of comment.
MR LATHAM
Were you joining in from time to time or just listening
from time the to time?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
I was joining in from time to time.
MR LATHAM
primarily a conversation between the two of you?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
do you remember a sort of conversation about DNA?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
that's correct, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
can you just tell us what you remember about that?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
I can't remember how the conversation started, but the
words DNA was mentioned, about how long DNA would last.
Then my colleague Sharon started to discuss about a Russian
Tzar and using a DNA track to confirm if someone in America
was related to the Russian Tzar and it went back many
many years.
MR LATHAM
I think there was reference to an aircraft which had been
seen up that day?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
did he also refer, you were there, the cause of the disappearance
of the girls? Did he, at some stage, refer to any personal
involvement or sighting that he had of the girls?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
from recollection, it was worded, I can't remember the
exact words, but it was along the lines that he was the
last person to see the girls on the day.
MR LATHAM
did he give a time for that sighting?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
I would say about twenty past six. I can't be 100% accurate
with the time, but I recall twenty past six.
MR LATHAM
do you remember any mention at all of any other caretaker?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
yes I do, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
again, just very shortly, what was the topic?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
the caretaker, the other caretaker, had not been there
very long and he was asked to leave because he got close
to some girls.
MR LATHAM
was there mention of some keys?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
yes there was mention of keys.
MR LATHAM
thank you, would you wait there, please.
Transcript
edited by Sky News
MR LATHAM
why did you note the time 7.20, why did that have any
significance to you?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
we were supposed to be back rendezvousing with the Sergeant.
We were where we had been originally deployed that evening,
but I recall we were late.
MR LATHAM
you were late. It was relevant to you, the time?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
Yes, as I said we had to be back for seven o'clock.
MR LATHAM
yes while the man was still there, Ian Huntley was still
there, was there anything said in the van, either by you
or your colleague or over the radio, that he could have
heard about as to what was to happen in the future so
far as you were concerned, by you I mean the police?
JONATHAN YAXLEY
no.
MR LATHAM
thank you.
MR COWARD
I have no questions.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much
(the witness withdrew).
MR LATHAM
my Lord on the chronology, the same page, we go to 2030
and a short statement from a Teresa Russell, page 1389
"I work as a caterer in Bury St Edmonds and travel
to and from work in my car. I live in Lakenheath. At about
8.30 p.m.", I think it must be "between"
my Lord because of the way it reads. "at about 8.30
p.m. and 8.45", permissible how it is actually put
in the statement, that must mean between 8.30 and 8.45,
"on Wednesday, 7th August 2002, I was travelling
from home to work in my car on my own.
Just around the corner from where I live is Quayside Court
which is a warden controlled, old persons complex, comprising
of about 15 bungalows. My grandmother resides at Quayside
Court and as such I visit her there quite a lot. On this
night, as I drove past Quayside Court in the direction
of Eriswell, I noticed a man walking on his own from the
bungalows towards the Main Road.
He was quite (inaudible) and wore a cord shirt. I saw
his face for a moment as I drove by. I thought nothing
of it - sorry I thought nothing of this until I saw the
ITV News about a man and a woman being arrested for the
murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. The man, Ian
Huntley's picture on the TV, I think was the same man
I saw on Wednesday, 7th in Quayside Court. Despite only
seeing him briefly in passing, I am between 20 per cent
and 30 per cent sure he was the man.
I may have seen Huntley before at Quayside Court, but
other than that, I don't know him and I haven't seen him
around. prior to making the connection between the man
I saw and the man on television, I wasn't aware that Ian
Huntley's gran was in Quayside Court. When I saw the man
on the Wednesday he was walking in the car parking area
which is on the right as you enter Quayside Court.
The news bulletin I saw regarding the arrest was broadcast
on the day of the arrest, as I remember the news stating
they had been arrested earlier in the day."
MR COWARD
my Lord it would assist the Jury and your Lordship, there
is no dispute that person was Ian Huntley.
MR LATHAM
Constable TIMOTHY CLEARY , please, page 1401.
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I am Detective Constable Tim Cleary, of (inaudible) constabulary,
attached to (inaudible)?
MR LATHAM
I think, Mr Cleary, you were in Soham last year, is that
right?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
Was your normal rest day cancelled on Wednesday, 7th August,
and did you go to Soham during the course of Wednesday
evening?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I think you were working in relation to Soham and the
search and so on during that evening, but moving around,
not in the centre of Soham the whole time, is that correct?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
that's correct, I was asked to do mobile security, Sunday.
MR LATHAM
can I take you into the early hours of the Thursday morning,
so on into the night of the Wednesday, into Thursday,
about one o'clock in the morning. Did you take an interest
in a people-carrier type vehicle which was driving in
fact in the High Street of Soham?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
Yes, I did, I noticed it as I was approaching; there was
very little traffic.
MR LATHAM
did it turn into some buildings or into the area of Soham
Village College?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
it did. It followed me into the area of Soham Village
College.
MR LATHAM
were you in a parked police vehicle?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I was, yes.
MR LATHAM
as you turned into the area of the college obviously it
would be dark, apart from any street lighting, was your
attention drawn to somebody on foot?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, it was, yes.
MR LATHAM
what was that person doing when you first saw them?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I noticed that somebody was attracting my attention by
moving a torch from side to side.
MR LATHAM
did you later discover who that was?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
who did you discover it to be?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
it was Mr Ian Huntley.
MR LATHAM
yes. Did you know him on that night that you discovered
he was Ian Huntley? Later, did he announce, when you spoke
to him, what his job was and what----?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, he did. He told me he was the caretaker.
MR LATHAM
what did he say he was?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
the caretaker of the Village College.
MR LATHAM
what was he attracting your attention for, what did he
want?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
initially I spoke to him and he asked me how it was going.
I didn't know whether he was a police officer or a member
of the public.
MR LATHAM
but you didn't know if he was a police officer or member
of the public. How was he dressed?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
as far as I can recall he was dressed in a blue T shirt
and he had some form of identification around his neck
in a plastic wallet.
MR LATHAM
how did the conversation continue?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
he asked me what I was doing, which I explained, and then
he invited me in for a cup of tea to his house.
MR LATHAM
although it was in the middle of the night. Did you accept
that offer?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
did you go into what you later discovered was the caretaker's
home, number 5?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
was anything said, as you went in, in relation to noise
or - it was the middle of the night now, one o'clock in
the morning?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
that's right. He asked me to be particularly quiet, he
said his partner was asleep upstairs.
MR LATHAM
did he explain what he was doing outside at that ime in
the morning?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
he had said to me he had a responsibility for the security
of the school, and he had seen my headlights and he had
come out to find out what was happening.
MR LATHAM
as far as you were aware at that time in the morning,
were there other police officers in the area of Soham?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
no, there weren't; it was just myself.
MR LATHAM
did you give him that information?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, I did, we discussed that.
MR LATHAM
when you went into the house, did anything strike you
as you were - which part of the house did you go into?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
from the entrance hall I was led into the kitchen which
was very bright and very clean.
MR LATHAM
was there anything on any of the work surfaces?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
no, it was very open plan - sparse.
MR LATHAM
was tea or coffee made?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
Yes, Mr Huntley made us both a drink; I think it was tea.
MR LATHAM
did you consume it in the kitchen or did you go somewhere
else?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
Mr Huntley indicated for me to go through to the lounge,
which I did.
MR LATHAM
you may still be, I don't know, but were you a smoker?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I was, yes.
MR LATHAM
were you thinking about whether or not to light a cigarette?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, I was, yes.
MR LATHAM
had you been conscious as you were going round the house
that you were in a smoker's house, if I can put it that
way, or a non-smoker house, could you tell?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
nothing had indicated either way, I couldn't tell if it
had been a smokers house.
MR LATHAM
is that normally the case; can you normally tell when
you go into a home?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, I can, yes.
MR LATHAM
as you were in the kitchen before you actually went into
the living room did he mention anything about maps?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, he discussed how he had been assisting the police,
searching with his maps of the college grounds.
MR LATHAM
did he go on to make an observation, a more general observation,
about the whole business?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
without reference to my statement, I can't recall.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, a statement dated 19th August, so I can't ask
you to look at your witness statement. My Lord, I will
go until I'm stopped in relation to the time.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I wasn't told there was any flexibility or not - how much
longer have you?
MR LATHAM
my Lord, there are a quite a few topics of conversation.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
we had better stop then. I am very sorry, I am sorry you
will have to come back in the morning. I am afraid that's
it. Nobody has told me we are not having normal days after
today . We'll have normal days after today. Sorry about
that. Thank you very much. Hearing adjourned - will resume
tomorrow
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