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19/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 19 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.
Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer.
MR JUSTICE MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
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MR LATHAM
Mr Cleary, when we broke off yesterday afternoon you were
telling us about the meeting you had with Ian Huntley
at No. 5 in the early hours of the morning. Can I just
take you to the kitchen, which is where you went first
of all, when you went into the living room to sit down
and have the hot drink he had prepared in the kitchen.
Was there anything that struck you about the kitchen while
you were in there?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, it was very bright, very brightly lit, it was also
very clean and there was not an awful lot about on the
work surfaces.
MR LATHAM
now, you mentioned that there was a reference to maps
that he had had in his possession, which he had been providing
to the police to assist during the course of the police
search; you mentioned that yesterday. Did he say anything
else about his own feelings about this police search which
was on the way, or the general situation?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
he was asking me about how the investigation was progressing.
MR LATHAM
yes, what about his own feelings?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
I'm not sure I understand.
MR LATHAM
what was the reason for the police being at Soham?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
to look for the missing children.
MR
LATHAM
the missing children. By the time you met him the search
for the missing children had been going on for some time,
had it not?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
that is correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
did he express any view or any thoughts himself about
the missing children, the situation, the search?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, he did. yes.
MR LATHAM
what did he say?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
Well, he suggested that it was becoming increasingly more
serious. I think the media coverage; he was suggesting
as well that every day that passed increased in severity.
MR LATHAM
was there discussion on any other topics associated with
the disappearance of these two girls?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
yes, we spoke about the things that had been in the media
that day.
MR LATHAM
what things?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
topics over the mobile phone that had been at the front
of the media coverage.
MR LATHAM
what do you remember him saying about the mobile phone?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
he was asking me questions, as a police officer, about
what the police could do with mobile phone technology.
MR LATHAM
yes. did you give him any answers to those inquiries?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
we spoke about what was available in the media, I had
no briefing, I had no experience of the mobile phone investigations
so we spoke about things that were covered in the media.
MR LATHAM
did you have any general information about mobile telephones
as a result of your own knowledge, not necessarily specifically
related to this incident?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
no experience or knowledge prior to this, no.
MR LATHAM
right. so you talked about mobile telephones. Anything
else?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
we talked about DNA and offenders being forensically aware.
MR LATHAM
who raised the question of DNA?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
I'm not sure. It is a topic that came up as a result of
the conversation on the mobile phones.
MR
LATHAM
so out of mobile phones came DNA. Tell us what was said
about DNA?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
we spoke about programmes on Sky and other news channels
that talk about how offenders are caught, and how that
has led to offenders being more forensically aware - wearing
gloves, not leaving traces of themselves at crime scenes.
MR LATHAM
yes. was any other police investigation mentioned during
the course of your discussion with him?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
yes, that of Milly Dowler and Sarah Payne .
MR LATHAM
what was said about that?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
very little, the Milly Dowler that (inaudible) no body
at the time had been discovered, and where the police
may go with that investigation.
MR LATHAM
what did he say about this?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
he just spoke of a general background knowledge to it,
suggesting that it may be sometime before bodies were
found.
MR LATHAM
anything said on the subject of computers?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
yes, we also touched on computers and Internet grooming
of children by paedophiles.
MR LATHAM
who raised that topic, can you remember?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
I think that was Mr Huntley.
MR LATHAM
sorry?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I think that was Mr Huntley.
MR LATHAM
what was he saying?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
in the media I believe that day it talked about a computer
that had been taken from one of the child homes and he
linked that with a possible lead being Internet chat rooms
and the fact that the children may have arranged a visit
or a meeting with somebody.
MR LATHAM
how did he behave generally with you during the time you
were in his house?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
he was very upset, he looked very tired and I spent quite
a long time reassuring him that I'm sure there was nothing
more that he could do. He came across having a great sense
of guilt that he had not done more at the time of seeing
the children to ask them about where they were going,
or challenge them.
MR LATHAM
can we look at that if we may? You describe him as being
upset; can you explain what you mean by that? people can
be upset and show it in a number of different ways, how
was he evincing being upset?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
he had watery eyes at various points during the conversation
and also his manner of smoking appeared to be that he
may be nervous or something like that.
MR
LATHAM
and he was talking about, you said, "could have done
more"; what was he saying?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
he said in hindsight he wished he had challenged the children
to ascertain where they were going and what they were
doing.
MR LATHAM
because?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
because now they were missing.
MR LATHAM
and what was he saying, if you challenged him then, or
how would that change that?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
he didn't elaborate on that; he appeared to be saying
that he was helpless in not having done that.
MR LATHAM
from that, I take it that at some stage you did speak
about his own dealings with these two girls?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
what did he say about that?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
he said prior to the disappearance he knew of the children;
he didn't know them by name but he knew them to say hello
to in passing.
MR LATHAM
and what had happened between him and the children, what
did he tell you?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I don't recall he said anything.
MR
LATHAM
well, you have said that he told you he wished he had
done more did he tell you what he in fact had done, or
what had happened ?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
no, he didn't, no.
MR LATHAM
were you, before you went into that house, aware of any
report you had made of any contact whatsoever with those
two children?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I don't believe I was, no.
MR LATHAM
when he said "I wish had done more", was that
said in a vacuum or was it----
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
its sounds a bit like you are cross-examining this witness
now.
MR LATHAM
was anything else said between the two of you on the topic
of the girls?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, we spoke about the police investigation. he was asking
me questions about it.
MR LATHAM
how long do you think you were in the house with him?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I would say between 30 and 40 minutes, something like
that.
MR LATHAM
and how did you come to leave?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
How did you come to leave? how did it end?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
I said I should go and check the security at the school
.
MR LATHAM
yes. thank you, Mr Cleary will you wait there, please.
Cross-examined by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
so this was quite a long chat that you had in his house,
and you were quite willing to speak with him about the
topics he raised, weren't you ?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
yes, I was.
MR COWARD
one prior matter you were with him in his house for good
lighting for - (inaudible) did you notice anything about
his face at all, any marks, any scratches?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
no, I didn't, no.
MR COWARD
You actually expressed disappointment about the way the
press had approached matters up to now?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
yes, I did.
MR COWARD
you told him you thought the press shouldn't have released
some information about mobile phones?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
I didn't say that they shouldn't have done, I said I was
disappointed that they had done.
MR
COWARD
disappointed that they had? the areas that you expressed
a disappointment to Mr Huntley were the techniques that
are used to trace the position of a mobile telephone.
that was one topic, wasn't it?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
yes.
MR COWARD
you were also disappointed that they were saying things
about how you retrieve text messages, number 2.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
could you answer that?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes.
MR COWARD
and you also said you were disappointed that the press
were dealing with the topic of examination of computer
records, you thought that they shouldn't be doing that,
is that right?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I don't recall that I had that opinion on the computer
issue.
MR COWARD
Mr Cleary, I have a statement from you (my Lord page 1404
for the record), the statement is dated 19th August, shortly
after Mr Huntley's arrest. can I read a section to you,
middle of the page?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes.
MR COWARD
"I
said that I was disappointed about the way the press have
released detailed information about triangulation techniques
to trace mobile phones." Your statement goes on "and
examination of computer records". Having jogged your
memory, it is right isn't it, you expressed disappointment
that details about examination of computer records had
got into the press?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
if that is in my statement, yes.
MR
COWARD
was it at that stage that the question of Internet and
chat rooms came up quite naturally in the conversation
and you were saying, he was saying, that it is one of
the dangers that young children can become involved in
chat rooms, that was discussed, wasn't it?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
yes, that's right.
MR COWARD
do you actually remember whether you said to Mr Huntley
that well at that age you didn't think they would be able
to get into chat rooms and he said "Oh yes they can
at that age?"
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I don't recall that being suggested said at all.
MR COWARD
reading on from your statement after the passage I quoted
to you - and I am considering the topic of how certain
areas of the case cropped up - "Examination of computer
records he asked me for more examples of this. I didn't
know, so I discussed the way some burglars had become
forensically aware and were learning to wear gloves and
balaclavas to avoid leaving evidence." this was the
point, wasn't it, at which DNA came into the conversation
you had with him?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, it was, yes.
MR COWARD
Mr Cleary, were you making any note at all of the conversation
you were having with Mr Huntley in his house?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
no, I wasn't.
MR COWARD
as we know, the first time you committed it to writing
was 18th August, and I think you made a further statement
on 28th August, going over the ground again. Am I right
that your partner worked in telecommunications within
the police?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes, she does.
MR COWARD
so this was a topic of particular interest to you and
you said to Mr Huntley that she was disappointed that
so much informed information had got into the public domain
and it really shouldn't ?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
that's right.
MR COWARD
when you spoke together about Milly Dowler andd Sarah
Payne, I think you expressed some views about the prospects
- particularly in the case of Milly Dowler - of finding
her alive, didn't you?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
I don't recall that.
MR COWARD
I am looking at the statement of 28th. I will read out
what you had to say "we also discussed the case of
Milly Dowler and Sarah Payne. I told him that I believed
Sarah was dead within a few hours of going missing".
MR JUSTICE MOSES
page, I have got it, 1409.
MR COWARD
and you went on " ... and I told him I had not held
out much hope that the missing girls, Holly and Jessica,
would be found alive. However, he was keen to reiterate
what he had already said in respect of there having been
an accident and one having gone to help the other."
So you were being pessimistic when you spoke to Mr Huntley,
weren't you, as to whether Holly and Jessica would be
found alive "I told him I did not hold out much hope
that the missing girls would be found alive"?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes.
MR COWARD
and he was sounding more optimistic than you were in that
conversation?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes.
MR COWARD
just one matter, officer, where there is a difference
of recollection (my Lord, 1407). you have told the members
of the jury that there came a stage where he said to you,
according to your evidence, that he knew of them, the
two girls "not by name, but to say hello to in passing".
are you sure about that?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes.
MR COWARD
it is a remark that doesn't appear in your first statement
at all, but only in your second. Can you explain that
?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
no, I can't.
MR COWARD
thinking about it----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
just so the jury know the second one was on the 28th August,
the first one was on the 19th. sorry, go on.
MR COWARD
thinking about it, at the time you made your first statement,
Mr Huntley had already been arrested, your statement is
19th August, he was under arrest by then?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
in which case, yes.
MR COWARD
therefore, you appreciated when you gave that first statement
that everything Mr Huntley said in connection with the
girls was potentially significant, didn't you?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
yes.
MR COWARD
how could it be then, officer, in those circumstances,
that you missed out the bit about he said he knew them
to say hello to in passing?
TIMOTHY
CLEARY
I'm not sure. I just didn't recall it at that time.
MR COWARD
you see, I have to suggest, officer, that although you
have got a great deal of what happened in that conversation
right, that wasn't said?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
that's not the case. I recall that being said.
MR COWARD
thank you very much.
(Re-examined by
MR LATHAM)
MR LATHAM
you made two witness statements, as has just been pointed
out. the first on the 19th and then the second 9 days
later. what was the reason for making the second statement?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
the investigators contacted me again and asked for a further
statement.
MR LATHAM
what were you doing in the second statement, having already
made one statement?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
are you asking about the purpose of the statement.
MR LATHAM
yes?
TIMOTHY CLEARY
the investigator said it was to clarify some points from
the initial statement.
MR LATHAM
I have no other re-examination.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
you do not want to put to him that passage in 1409 that
was led in cross-examination? it is up to you. thank you
very much.
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