| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
19/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 19 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.
Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer.
MR JUSTICE MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
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MR LATHAM
DEBBIE TUBBY, please, page 1412.
(DEBBIE
TUBBY, sworn)
(Examined by MR LATHAM)
MR
LATHAM
your full name, please?
DEBBIE TUBBY
DEBBIE TUBBY.
MR LATHAM
you are a broadcast journalist employed by the BBC, are
you not?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
You were working in such a role back in August of last
year?
DEBBIE TUBBY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
as a result of the disappearance of the two girls from
Soham, were you asked to go down to Soham from Monday
5th August onwards?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, I was.
MR LATHAM
were you there every day, or most of the days, following
on from the fortnight before arrest and indeed the discovery
of the bodies?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I was there everyday apart from weekends, Saturday and
Sundays.
MR LATHAM
where were you based when you were in Soham?
DEBBIE TUBBY
we were based at the school to begin with, and then the
college car park.
MR LATHAM
I think during the course of the time you were on the
site as a journalist, you met Ian Huntley and indeed spoke
to him on number of occasions, didn't you?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR LATHAM
I would like, if I may, to ask you about one or two of
those short conversations. On Monday, 5th August, did
you first meet him and discover he was the caretaker for
the school?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR LATHAM
did he say anything to you about any contact or connection
he may have had with the girls?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
Yes.
MR LATHAM
what did he say?
DEBBIE TUBBY
he approached me in the car park on Monday night to say
the police thought he was the last person to see the girls
before they disappeared. he also told me he had been up
all night searching for the girls and he said that the
police had searched his house and that they thought that
he did it.
MR LATHAM
now, in the light of that information being provided to
you, what did you want to do, if you could?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I asked him if he had been interviewed.
MR
LATHAM
was he prepared to do that when you made that request
on 5th August, the Monday evening?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
no. He said he didn't like having his photo taken.
MR LATHAM
did he, however, give you a means of contacting him?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, he did. he gave me his mobile telephone number.
MR LATHAM
and, indeed, during the ensuing days, did you use that
mobile telephone number once or more than once?
DEBBIE TUBBY
more than once.
MR LATHAM
and in the early days from Tuesday onwards, did you have
in mind that he might be the source of another piece of
material you were interested in?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
sorry?
MR LATHAM
did you make any request from him, apart from an interview,
any other material?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes. I asked him, because he was my contact with the community,
it was my first time in Soham, I thought he might have
been able to get hold of any video footage of Holly and
Jessica.
MR LATHAM
I can't hear - any?
DEBBIE TUBBY
video footage.
MR LATHAM
of the children?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR LATHAM
and what did he say about that?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
to ring Maxine, she might be able to help.
MR
LATHAM
did you, as a result of that, get another phone number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes. He gave me Maxine's mobile telephone number.
MR LATHAM
indeed. Did you ever use that telephone number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I did on a couple of occasions.
MR LATHAM
was the phone answered?
DEBBIE TUBBY
one time I left her a voice mail message, and the second
time I spoke to Maxine and she was standing near her neighbour
at the time, and she passed the phone over to her neighbour
as well.
MR LATHAM
were either of them in a position to help you with that
line of inquiry, namely a video tape of the children?
DEBBIE TUBBY
they said they would check and they would come back to
me.
MR LATHAM
can I move on from Monday and Tuesday of the first week?
I think on the Thursday you learned that the police were
likely to do something, did you not?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I heard that they were going to do a press conference
at Huntingdon at six o'clock that evening.
MR
LATHAM
and were you standing near anyone when you first heard
that piece of information?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I was relaying that information to the Six o'clock News
to say that we thought there was going to be a significant
development at that press conference when Ian Huntley
approached me.
MR LATHAM
did he say something to you?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
when I finished the phone conversation he asked what the
significant development was. I said didn't know, and the
next question was "Have they found the girls' clothes?"
MR LATHAM
in fact, did you persist in trying to get an interview
with him during the course of the fortnight?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR LATHAM
were you at any stage successful in getting any sort of
interview which you recorded?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think that was at the back end or the middle of the
second week, Wednesday, 14th August, wasn't it?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR LATHAM
was it a long interview or just a few questions?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it was a relatively short interview, three or four minutes,
three or four questions.
MR LATHAM
during one of the occasions when you were trying to persuade
him to do an interview, do you recollect saying something
to him which caused him to make a specific comment to
you?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it was an unfortunate slip I said I thought it was important
he did an interview with us because he was the last person
to see the girls alive.
MR LATHAM
that of course was before the girls' bodies were found,
wasn't it? what was his reaction when you used the word
"alive"?
DEBBIE TUBBY
he was angry and he said, "You don't mean that do
you?" and I apologised.
MR LATHAM
will you wait there, please.
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
I imagine, as you are a journalist, you kept notes of
all these conversations?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I kept certain notes but as a television producer we obviously
keep interviews on tape, television tape.
MR
COWARD
have you looked at your own notebook, your books for these
events?
DEBBIE TUBBY
my notebook - I record everything that happened over the
week in one of my notebooks and that was written last
year.
MR COWARD
sorry, I missed the last bit?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
last year, when it happened, I wrote down obviously, after
the events of the two weeks, what had happened and what
I thought was significant.
MR COWARD
obviously, the dates that you specifically referred to
are 5th August and 8th August; do you have with you your
notebook covering the 5th and the 8th?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
it is at home.
MR COWARD
have you brought a notebook to court?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
could I have the notebook please. headed on the front
cover
DEBBIE TUBBY
, BBC, keep, Soham number 2. inside the front cover it
says "
DEBBIE TUBBY
BBC Network, July 2002 to September 2002, including Holly
and Jessica case, my police statement ". Then an
irrelevant matter. Would you have look at that for me,
please. what is the first date of that book?
DEBBIE TUBBY
Monday, 12th August.
MR COWARD
how did that book get from your possession to be in this
court, to the old Bailey? Did you bring it with you?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes I did.
MR COWARD
when?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I brought it with me today.
MR COWARD
why did you bring the book that doesn't cover the period
that we are concerned with?
DEBBIE TUBBY
because it includes the day when I gave a police statement
and all the things I told the police.
MR
COWARD
but the police statement was made later in time, the date
I have got on my typed copy is 18th August, isn't it?
Those notes that you made on the 5th August and on the
8th August, if you made any, were made at the time, weren't
they?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no. I made the notes when I gave the police statement.
the things that I was told had stayed in my mind.
MR COWARD
so are you saying that the conversation with Mr Huntley
on the 5th August, you don't have a note of it?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no, not on that day.
MR COWARD
are you saying with regard the 8th August you don't have
a note of what Mr Huntley said to you?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
no.
MR COWARD
you have looked at notebook number 1, have you, to check
that?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes. I have got notes in there saying when I contacted
him and Maxine.
MR COWARD
would you have a look at the very first page of that book,
covering the 12th August? Do you notice something odd
on the first page?
DEBBIE TUBBY
Nothing odd.
MR COWARD
nothing odd? how about pages torn out odd?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
it is one page because I made a mistake in the first front
of the page.
MR COWARD
one page?
DEBBIE TUBBY
one page.
MR COWARD
check that again, would you? have a look and see how many
pages are missing?
DEBBIE TUBBY
one page at the back and one page at the front.
MR COWARD
I suggest there are two missing.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
two at the back? Or one at the front and one at back.
MR COWARD
(inaudible) I suggest there are two missing pages?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I think she has agreed the----?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
one at the front and one at the back.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
even BBC correspondents know that's two. .
MR
COWARD
we are still at cross purposes, my Lord. I suggest that
two pages have been torn out from the front, and in consequence
there are two pages missing from the back. not one from
the front and one from the back?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I think it looks as though just one at the front and one
at the back. As I said, I tore it out just before I started
writing in this book and it obviously had a reference
at the back, the same page.
MR COWARD
tell us why you tore it out of the book?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I'm a very organised type of person and when I started
the book I made a mistake and wanted to start again, so
I literally just ripped the page out. It has no relevance
apart from that.
MR COWARD
yesterday, 18th November 2003, you made a handwritten
further statement, didn't you? Has your Lordship got a
copy of that? I am sure one can be provided to your Lordship.
(To the witness) Do you have copy of that statement?
DEBBIE TUBBY
not with me, but I have outside the Court.
MR
COWARD
the second paragraph "from notes made by me during
this coverage, a further statement during the conversation
I had with Ian Huntley on Monday, 5th August; from notes
made by me during this coverage" - what does that
mean, Miss Tubby?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it means just shortly after - the coverage has been going
on since 5th August when the girls first disappeared -
I made those notes, I think, the day I made the statements.
MR COWARD
this is yesterday. you obviously were referring to some
notes which help you in regard to what happened on the
5th August?
DEBBIE TUBBY
these notes are in here.
MR COWARD
"from notes made by me during this coverage"?
DEBBIE TUBBY
these notes are in here.
MR COWARD
but the notes that you are now referring to are, in fact,
a draft statement that you made preparatory to giving
a written statement to the police, aren't they?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
on the 18th August - around that time?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
Yes, I'm not sure if it was before or after I gave the
statement.
MR COWARD
as an experienced and dedicated journalist, could I suggest
to you it is absolute nonsense that you don't have a note
of the 5th and you don't have a note of the 8th?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I do have notes of the 5th and I do have notes of the
8th; it is in my notebook at home. As TV journalists we
take clips and quotes from people through the television.
It wasn't until later that the conversation I had with
Mr Huntley actually became of any consequence or relevance.
I didn't think from day one it was relevant, the conversation
I had with Mr Huntley. It wasn't until later on the Thursday
when I thought things were more relevant.
MR
COWARD
I asked again why hadn't you thought the notebooks with
you?
DEBBIE TUBBY
the police didn't ask for it when I gave the statement.
I didn't think I would need them today (inaudible).
MR COWARD
you didn't bring the book which has whatever notes you
have of what may or may not have been said on the 5th
and 8th?
DEBBIE TUBBY
No. As I said, I didn't take specific notes on the 5th
and the 8th of what Mr Huntley said to me.
MR
COWARD
according to you, Mr Huntley said to you on the 5th "They
think I did it". Didn't you, as an experienced journalist,
think that a significant remark?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes, that's why I wanted to get his telephone number,
and that's why I asked him for an interview.
MR COWARD
And that's why, no doubt, you made a note of that remark
there and then?
DEBBIE TUBBY
It was ten o'clock at night. I am a bit wary of strange
men approaching me in a car park at nighttime when I am
standing there on my own.
MR COWARD
so the moment he disappeared you wrote it down?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I told one of my colleagues about it.
MR
COWARD
forgive me, the essence of being a journalist, you come
with shorthand, don't you?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no.
MR COWARD
if people talk to you and they say significant things,
you keep a record of what is said, don't you?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I thought he was a bit of a nuisance at the time. I didn't
think he was a significant person. I thought he was significant
in that he may have been the last person to see the girls
before they disappeared, so I took down his own mobile
telephone number and said that I would probably ring him
the next day.
MR COWARD
"they think I did it", that makes him a significant
person to anybody who has any antenna at all?
DEBBIE TUBBY
he was kind of glorifying in the fact the police had said
that, that's why I didn't think he was serious.
MR COWARD
when you spoke to him on the 8th August when, according
to you, he said- when the police were about to announce
a major development - "Have they found the girls
clothes?" Did that they strike you as significant
at the time?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it struck me as very significant.
MR
COWARD
so when we look at your notebook number 1, we'll find
these two topics, or at least one of them, covering the
note?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no. I went straight to the police and reported him.
MR COWARD
my Lord, I'm not sure I can address the matter any further
at this stage.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
presumably, you live a long way?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
two hours, Norwich.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
another day she'll come back and bring the notebook, so
perhaps it can be arranged between you when she comes
back. .
MR COWARD
I'm sure we can assist the witness.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
we'll postpone the cross-examination for the moment. if
you would like to go - arrange with whoever in the Crown
Prosecution Service team, I hope sooner rather than later.
isn't that the best way of dealing with it?
MR LATHAM
I was going to ask do you have any objection to producing
the notes that you have referred to?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I have no objection to producing my notebook from that
first week, but there are no notes in there specifically
saying what was said to Ian until - there are notes in
there of what I did on the day, who I contacted, like
Mr Huntley and Maxine Carr.
MR COWARD
I would still like to see it. obviously there will be
sensitive matters unrelated to this case. The witness
has my undertaking?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's not a problem.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
hang on a moment. I do not want to make a great meal of
this. Obviously you want to look at the notebook, that's
one issue, but do we need her back if the notebook merely
says what she says it says? Do you see what I mean? If
we assume now that what she has said all along; namely,
there were no contemporaneous notes of these matters,
they were merely first notes she made when she was drafting
a statement, or thinking of making a statement, before
or after, if one assumes that's correct, why can't you
just cross-examine on that basis and then she only need
come back in. Having seen the notebook, if it is not,
correct or something else occurs to you----
MR COWARD
I am more than happy.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
shall we do it that way, that would then save the witness
from coming back. Anything more you want to ask?
MR COWARD
not at this stage, my Lord.
MR HUBBARD
only one matter, you were pretty persistent in leaving
messages with Maxine Carr on her mobile, weren't you?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I don't know how many I left, but I did leave messages
on her mobile.
MR HUBBARD
you left an awful lot during Thursday of the first week
- Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
certainly Thursday. Ian Huntley agreed to do an interview
on the Thursday morning and he didn't turn up. I rang
Maxine to say we were running late and she said he will
be there. Then Ian didn't turn up so I rang Maxine Carr
again to say where is he, and she didn't answer the phone.
MR HUBBARD
no further questions.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
it has not actually been exhibited.
MR
COWARD
she said, "This is my book." She has inspected
it physically; I would like the jury to be able to inspect
it.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
do you have any observations about that? I think the contents
have been cross-examined. we can argue about that.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I have no objection to it being exhibited; perhaps
we can just establish whether or not there are other entries
in it that are nothing to do with this matter. I think
they ought to be flagged, the relevant issues, like the
old police notebook things, with a paper clip.
MR COWARD
my Lord I am aware there is one totally unrelated topic.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
what we'll do is we'll make sure that the relevant bits
get the paper clip, or some other way, a Post-it on it;
then I suggest what you do is get, by whatever means the
BBC nowadays use to get their documents, your other notebook,
earlier notebook, down to the Crown Prosecution Service,
CPS team, and give it to
MR COWARD
and he will look at it and then decide whether or not
they want you back or not? All right?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
so make sure we know where you are.
MR
LATHAM
do I understand my learned friend has finished his cross-examination,
unless anything arises.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
unless he wants-, isn't that right.
MR
COWARD
unless there is something arising from the book, or triggered
by it.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
quite. why don't you reserve your re-examination.
MR LATHAM
I'm quite content. I'm just concerned we have got through
this procedure. I don't think Miss Tubby is actually being
challenged on any of the things she said she said.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
we'll leave the comments until later.
MR
COWARD
can I put my learned friend's mind at rest. I thought
it might have been apparent from the nature of the question
that on two particular answers----.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
you were challenging it.
MR COWARD
----it was denied that what she said orally.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I thought it was pretty obvious, but not sufficiently
made clear for MR LATHAM's purposes.
MR
COWARD
I hope it is now.
MR LATHAM
it is now.
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