| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
19/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 19 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.
Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer.
MR JUSTICE MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07
MR KHALIL
my Lord, I'm going to call one witness slightly out of
order, JEREMY THOMPSON, the statement is the third folder
at 1659.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
where is Mr Thompson. shall we do something?
MR KHALIL
tab 1, just behind----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
there is no objection, is there, MR COWARD , to them having
a transcript of this, if they have it now and hand it
back, or what?
MR COWARD
my Lord, the Jury can have it (inaudible).
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
thank you. Where do we put it .
MR KHALIL
tab 1, behind the statement of (inaudible).
(JEREMY THOMPSON, sworn)
Examined by MR KHALIL.
MR KHALIL
can you give us your name, please?
JEREMY
THOMPSON
Jeremy Gordon Thompson.
MR KHALIL
Mr Thompson are you a television news presenter employed
by Sky B?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I am.
MR KHALIL
In August last year, were you presenting the Soham case?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I was.
MR KHALIL
did you go to Soham in Cambridgeshire to cover the police
inquiry on the missing girls, Holly Wells and Jessica
Chapman?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I did.
MR KHALIL
Were you employed to present live news coverage from that
area?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I was.
MR KHALIL
did you first go to Soham on 8th August?
JEREMY
THOMPSON
I did go on the 8th August.
MR KHALIL
and then returned again on the 15th?
JEREMY
THOMPSON
I returned on the 15th.
MR KHALIL
by then you felt the inquiry from the press perspective
was losing momentum and in common with one of your producers
you began to prepare a time line from the event starting
Sunday, 4th August?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
all right. as part of that did you, as best you were able
to, retread the known route of the children from their
home addresses to the college and film various locations
on that route?
JEREMY THOMPSON
we did.
MR KHALIL
were you aware, then, from police press conferences, about
a sighting of the children on some closed-circuit television
outside the sports centre?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I was; I had covered that aspect on the 8th.
MR KHALIL
all right. was your understanding then that the timing
approximately of that was 6.15 pm?
JEREMY
THOMPSON
that was to my best recollection.
MR
KHALIL
you were aware by then of course of the identity of Ian
Huntley - of the caretaker of the school?
JEREMY
THOMPSON
I was.
MR KHALIL
did you then wish to approach him to see whether he would
provide you with an interview with regard to his sighting
of those two children?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that's correct, to establish his part in the time line
of August 4th.
MR KHALIL
did you, together with a camera crew, go to his home at
5 College Close with a view to pursuing that end?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I did.
MR KHALIL
about what time did you arrive at his house?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I would think somewhere between 4.15 and and 4.30 on that
Thursday afternoon.
MR KHALIL
I am told I can lead, my Lord. was he present at his home?
JEREMY THOMPSON
he was.
MR KHALIL
I think initially he indicated he had something he had
to do at the college, he went off and then returned to
the front of his house?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
did you then stand by his car which was facing his front
door?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that's right.
MR KHALIL
I think you began the formal television interview - you
conducted some preamble conversation with him?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that's right.
MR KHALIL
can you help us as to what was said, please?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I wanted to know - because there seemed to be some confusion
around - about exactly what time he had last seen and
spoken to the girls, and I had, I had been told, or I
had learned, that it was around 5.45. He said, "No,
that's not correct, it is somewhere nearer 6.15 to 6.30
on that evening of August 4th."
MR
KHALIL
that was a conversation prior to the formal televised
interview?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that's right, so I would get my facts right at the interview.
MR KHALIL
did you then proceed to conduct the televised interview
with him?
MR KHALIL
if I can go to page 14 on the bottom right hand corner
in tab 1. can you turn to the pages of the first tab -
there should come a bundle with numbers in the bottom
right hand corner, if you can just find that numbered
14 ?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I have it.
MR KHALIL
all right. we can of course check for ourselves as we
hear what I'm about to play, I'm about to play the television
coverage and we have hopefully, as best we can, an accurate
transcript to go with. Forgive me a moment while I just
try and bring that up.
(video played
of interview with Ian Huntley).
MR
KHALIL
is that the conclusion of that particular interview with
him?
JEREMY THOMPSON
it is.
MR KHALIL
did you also conduct an interview with Maxine Carr?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I did.
MR KHALIL
when, in relation to that interview, was the one you conducted
with Maxine Carr, please?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that interview with Ian Huntley was recorded on the afternoon
of the 15th August, around 4.30. I then spoke in a live
interview with Maxine Carr about 40 minutes later. I was
presenting a programme called live at 5 on Sky News and
it was about 10 minutes into the programme she spoke to
me live.
MR KHALIL
I'm going have to ask you to go back again this bundle
to number 13, please. I will play that one.
(video interviewed played of Maxine Carr).
MR KHALIL
that was the end of that in particular interview with
Maxine Carr?
JEREMY THOMPSON
That was.
MR KHALIL
if you wait there, there maybe further questions.
(Cross-examined by MR HUBBARD)
MR HUBBARD
I daresay a slip of the tongue when you used the past
tense in relation to the girls, you knew the girls, what
were they like. you could have said you knew the girls,
what are they like?
JEREMY THOMPSON
that's true.
MR HUBBARD
very easy, isn't it, to get the tense wrong even from
an experienced journalist like yourself. Now one other
matter.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you have not got an answer but since the question is a
comment perhaps the question is not surprising.
MR HUBBARD
one of your producers is a man called Ed Fraser?
JEREMY THOMPSON
correct.
MR HUBBARD
can you just establish this for me as a fact that around
the middle of August, 13th, 14th, 15th August, interest
in the inquiry from the media's point of view was losing
momentum?
JEREMY THOMPSON
I don't think- the feeling was that the police investigation
was losing momentum, and we felt that, to give them the
new focus, we would try and outline the time line as precisely
as we could, to make it help, give some attention to the
investigation and where members of the public perhaps
could help.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Thompson, I'm going to suggest what I put to you were
your words made on 19th November last year. It was around
this time that interest in the inquiry was losing momentum
in the media so Ed Fraser (inaudible)
JEREMY
THOMPSON
yes.
MR LATHAM
I have no other questions.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
thank you very much
(the witness withdrew).
Let's take a break. Can you be back just before five to.
{short adjournment}.
MR LATHAM
William Farmer, please
(William BRIAN
FARMER, sworn)
Examined by MR LATHAM.
MR LATHAM
start please by telling us your full name?
BRIAN
FARMER
My full name is William BRIAN FARMER.
MR
LATHAM
you work for the press association in your Head Office
in London, being based (inaudible)?
BRIAN
FARMER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I think you became aware, during the morning of Monday
5th August, of the missing schoolgirls from Soham?
BRIAN FARMER
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
were you involved in the Soham area during the course
of the next few days, as a result of what had happened?
BRIAN FARMER
I was, yes.
MR LATHAM
I want, if I may, to take you on to Thursday, 8th August
the morning of that day, when there was a press conference
at ten o'clock in the college assembly hall and it was
made public; there was a video tape showing the missing
girls walking across the Ross Peers sports centre car
park?
BRIAN FARMER
the sports centre, that's right.
MR
LATHAM
after the press conference was over, what did you start
to do?
BRIAN FARMER
after the press conference took place in the school hall,
myself and many other journalists were taken over to the
sports centre with the police, where they showed us the
layout of the area, showed us the spot where the girls
would have been seen on the video camera, mainly to allow
photographs to be taken and film to be taken.
MR LATHAM
what was it your intention as a journalist, to do what
you could in the area, in the light of this new information?
BRIAN FARMER
what happened, something else happened before that. When
we had finished walking around the sports area car park
and so on, the police had another kind of small press
conference at which stage they gave out some information
about some new sighting.
MR LATHAM
right. I think you were interested, if you could for obvious
reasons as a journalist, in getting some interviews with
local people?
BRIAN FARMER
Yes, they gave out a list of potential new sightings or
new sightings they had had. From memory, there was about
five new sightings and once I had finished filing them,
filing a copy on whatever we had done, my idea was to
try and find all of those people or some of them.
MR LATHAM
was one of the names you had the college caretaker?
BRIAN FARMER
that's right. he wasn't actually named, there was no name
given, but one of the people the police said, who had
seen Holly and Jessica on the Sunday night, the night
they disappeared, was the caretaker of Soham Village College.
He had seen them near, I believe they said, near his home,
but they certainly said he had seen them.
MR
LATHAM
as a result of that did you start to look for that individual?
BRIAN FARMER
I did, yes, for the simple reason that----
MR
LATHAM
just "yes" or "no"?
BRIAN
FARMER
yes.
MR LATHAM
at this stage, if I may, were you on your own or were
there other journalists with you?
BRIAN
FARMER
when I started walking over to where I believed I would
find the caretaker I was on my own; as I made my way over
from the sports centre to the house, I was joined by two
other journalists.
MR LATHAM
did you at the time know their names or not?
BRIAN FARMER
well, I knew one of their first names but didn't know
his correct name. He is known as a kind of nickname and
I can't remember the name.
MR LATHAM
did you know the newspapers they worked for?
BRIAN FARMER
Yes, I knew one of them worked for the Telegraph and the
other one worked for the Glasgow Evening Herald.
MR LATHAM
did you knock on the front door of No. 5?
BRIAN
FARMER
yes.
MR LATHAM
did anyone answer?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, a man answered, with a woman standing behind him.
MR LATHAM
did they turn out to be Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr?
BRIAN FARMER
they did.
MR LATHAM
what was said, as best as you can recollect, in the doorway
when you first met them?
BRIAN FARMER
well, I began a conversation by saying that the police
had issued a new list of sightings and one of the people
they had said had seen the girls was the caretaker of
the Village College, and we asked the man if he was the
caretaker of the Village College and he said he was, and
we asked if we could come in and have a chat.
MR LATHAM
yes. what was his initial reaction or their initial reaction?
BRIAN FARMER
the initial reaction was he seemed reluctant initially
for us to come in and chat, he seemed wary.
MR LATHAM
had he - did he mention any other person from the press
or the media generally as having already been in touch
with him?
BRIAN FARMER
he referred to, he referred to a reporter, a lady from
the BBC. My recollection was he used the words had been
"hanging around" him the day before. He did
say a name but the name didn't mean anything to me, and
I can't remember what the name was.
MR
LATHAM
after you had spoken to him for a short time did you get
into the house?
BRIAN FARMER
yes.
MR LATHAM
where did you go in the house?
BRIAN
FARMER
we turned left as we went into the front door down a passageway
and into what I assumed was the sitting room.
MR LATHAM
by this stage - you have been mentioning Mr Huntley quite
a bit - where was Maxine Carr, was she----?
BRIAN FARMER
Mr Huntley answered the door. Miss Carr stood behind him
and as we walked in - we all walked in together, Miss
Carr, Mr Huntley and me and the two other journalists
walked in together.
MR LATHAM
so you were all in the living room together?
BRIAN FARMER
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you then notice somebody through the window outside,
who you knew?
BRIAN FARMER
yes.
MR LATHAM
who was that?
BRIAN FARMER
that was our photographer, ANDREW PARSONS.
MR
LATHAM
what did you do?
BRIAN FARMER
I went to the front door; I excused myself from the conversation,
which was taking place, and went to the front door to
open it and let Andrew in, and just explained what was
happening.
MR LATHAM
so now you had a photographer with you. what happened
when you got back inside?
BRIAN FARMER
we both sat down again and I continued joining in the
interview which was taking place.
MR
LATHAM
when you say "interview", at that stage was
anything being recorded or was this just chat?
BRIAN FARMER
we would have been taking notes.
MR
LATHAM
but was there a microphone or camera being used at that
stage?
BRIAN FARMER
No, I'm not aware there was a microphone, I don't believe
anyone had a tape recorder, we just had books and pencils.
Andrew was not taking photographs at that stage, he was
just sat down.
MR LATHAM
what was the topic of the conversation when you got back
into the living room with ANDREW PARSONS , the photographer?
BRIAN FARMER
to be absolutely honest I can't remember the exact part
of the conversation. We had started, had sat down and
started the conversation and had started talking and then
Andrew had arrived and I got up, I had to remember the
gist.
MR LATHAM
tell us the gist of what you remember?
BRIAN
FARMER
we said that we understood that Mr Huntley had identified
himself by this stage, had seen the girls. We just asked
him what the circumstances were, what the time was.
MR LATHAM
what time did he give you?
BRIAN FARMER
he said he had seen the girls from my recollection after
six, probably nearer quarter past six.
MR
LATHAM
what information had you had from the police about the
timing of this sighting?
BRIAN FARMER
the police said that the caretaker of Soham Village College
had reported seeing the girls at quarter to six, 5.45.
MR LATHAM
so now he is saying around quarter past six?
BRIAN FARMER
yes.
MR LATHAM
was your information, quarter to six, raised in conversation
with him?
BRIAN FARMER
I don't believe it was, no. Well, can I clarify that?
It would have been raised in the sense that, yes, sorry
it would have been raised in the sense that we would have
said to him, the police said quarter to six and he said
quarter past six, and gave an explanation as to what the----.
MR LATHAM
what is the explanation for the police having a time that
was about half an hour earlier than the time you were
now being given?
BRIAN FARMER
he said that he had been trying to work it out by what
he had been doing and that at the time he saw the girls
he had been on the front doorstep. I can't remember if
he said he had been sitting or standing, but he had been
on the front doorstep, washing his dog, who had gone out
and become dirty somehow, and had returned and had needed
to be washed, so he was washing the dog outside the front
doorstep when he saw the girls arrive. I can't remember
exactly how he worked out the times. He seemed, I seem
to remember he said it was later because the dog had gone
out at a certain time, therefore it came back at a certain
time, and he said he told the police that he said he had
initially given a time of a quarter to six, but then he
had told the police that was probably wrong and it was
quarter past six.
MR LATHAM
was anything said by Maxine Carr at this point, when you
were dealing with him being outside the front of the house
dealing with the dog?
BRIAN FARMER
yes. the conversation was basically - it wasn't a conversation
where I could have, like you and I are having at the moment,
it was a conversation where we would ask and Miss Carr
or Mr Huntley would chip in, almost like a tennis match.
Miss Carr said that at the time Mr Huntley had seen the
girls - washing the dog - she had been in the bath, having
a bath upstairs. I seem to recall there was some kind
of light-hearted comment made, about they had been suggesting
perhaps they should put the dog in the bath with her as
a kind of joke, and she had been in the bath, and during
the interview she said she wished she hadn't been in the
bath at the time because, if she hadn't been in the bath,
she might have been at the front of the house and seen
the girls and found out more information.
MR
LATHAM
was anything shown to you by either of them while you
were in the house?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, a card that Holly had made for Miss Carr when Miss
Carr had finished her job at the school.
MR
LATHAM
how was Ian Huntley, what was his demeanour like as this
interview was progressing?
BRIAN FARMER
his demeanour changed. I would describe his demeanour
when we started, it was wary and cautious. As the conversation
went on, he became quite emotional. in fact, there were
tears in his eyes, he became quite emotional. distressed
and emotional, he became distressed and emotional, and
later on in the interview his demeanour changed again,
but at that stage we were talking I would say he was becoming
distressed and emotional.
MR LATHAM
Did he say what he had been doing since the girls' disappearance?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, he was. He told us several times that he had been
helping in the search with them and said, I seem to remember
he had been out with the Essex police searching sometime,
and that he had been up during the night searching, and
that's basically what he had been doing since the girls
disappeared.
MR LATHAM
you had asked ANDREW PARSONS, the photographer, into the
house, you had actually brought him?
BRIAN
FARMER
from my memory, I think it is hard to remember now, but
I think as we were walking in, I telephoned Andrew to
say----.
MR LATHAM
I don't want to know what you said.
BRIAN
FARMER
that was----.
MR LATHAM
I want to know what happened to Mr Huntley. You had got
a photographer in the house?
BRIAN FARMER
yes.
MR LATHAM
what, if anything, did you say about that photographer
to either or both of them?
BRIAN FARMER
as the conversation ended, we pretty much had got the
information we needed, I asked if we could photograph
him, both Miss Carr and Mr Huntley. Andrew asked and I
asked.
MR LATHAM
what was the reaction?
BRIAN FARMER
Miss Carr was quite happy to be photographed, she posed
quite happily. Mr Huntley was adamant he wouldn't be photographed,
he used the phrase, I can remember today because it identifies
a strange phrase, he said "even my mother hasn't
got a photograph of me." It was evident he would
not be photographed.
MR LATHAM
was a photograph taken of Maxine Carr?
BRIAN
FARMER
it was.
MR LATHAM
and did I hear you mention the card again to Miss Carr?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, a photograph was taken of her holding the card.
MR LATHAM
I think as you were leaving the house, you bumped into
another reporter who you understood was a radio reporter,
was that correct?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, it wasn't as I was leaving the house, it was after
I had left the house, a few minutes after I left the house.
MR LATHAM
one other topic, if I may, was anything raised at all
about the Internet?
BRIAN FARMER
yes. Can I explain a bit of the background. the topic
of the Internet was raised.
MR LATHAM
I do not want to go into a lot of detail but do you remember
what was said?
BRIAN FARMER
we asked a question, one of the things that was being
suggested at the time was that Holly and Jessica might
have contacted someone on the Internet, and we raised
that topic with Miss Carr, because Miss Carr had been
working in the class room with them. We asked if Holly
and Jessica had been familiar with the Internet in her
opinion, and asked her particularly about the issue of
chat rooms; whether she thought they would be capable
on getting on chat rooms and generally about the issue
of chat rooms, and children using it.
MR
LATHAM
so she mentioned that?
BRIAN FARMER
we raised that in a question and she gave a reply and
then Mr Huntley gave a reply.
MR LATHAM
what did Mr Huntley say?
BRIAN FARMER
he said that, yes, they would be able to get onto the
chat rooms and he said that he knew how to get into chat
rooms, or we knew how to get into chat rooms, yes, they
could get into chat rooms because we can get into chat
rooms, I remember saying----
MR LATHAM
thank you, Mr Farmer would you wait there, please
Cross-examined by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
Mr Farmer, as a result of this, there had been a public
press conference, hadn't there?
BRIAN
FARMER
in the school.
MR COWARD
on 8th August?
BRIAN FARMER
in the morning, yes.
MR COWARD
as you have explained to the Jury, after that was over
there was another meeting between the press and the police
to which the public were not invited to?
BRIAN
FARMER
yes, a press conference would be too grand a word for
the second occasion, it was merely a briefing.
MR COWARD
a press briefing?
BRIAN FARMER
a press briefing, a kind of gathering.
MR
COWARD
at that press briefing on 8th August, you were given a
time it appeared Mr Huntley had seen the girls?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, the police gave us times, list of times, and amongst
those times it said "5.45 - caretaker of Soham Village
College reported seeing the girls".
MR
COWARD
was anything said - and I stress the day 8th August -
to the effect Mr Huntley had qiven witness statement to
the police on the 5th August in which he had said about
six?
BRIAN FARMER
no, the only thing that was said was literally what I
have just said to you; that there had been a sighting
reported by Mr Huntley and the time was 5.45. Nothing
else was said to be honest.
MR COWARD
you are working on the basis of 5.45?
BRIAN
FARMER
yes.
MR COWARD
obviously there was a significant difference, perhaps,
between that time and the time Mr Huntley in the house
was telling you he worked out he had seen the girls?
BRIAN FARMER
he was saying half an hour later. Whether or not it was
significant, but he was saying it was half an hour later
approximately.
MR COWARD
when you went to that press, briefing, were you given
a time at which it appeared the girls had been spotted
on the CCTV?
BRIAN FARMER
that time was given at the first press conference at the
public.
MR COWARD
the public one?
BRIAN FARMER
the bigger one, that time was given then, yes, that time
was given then.
MR COWARD
no doubt you worked on the basis that that was an accurate
timing?
BRIAN FARMER
the CCTV?
MR COWARD
yes?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, I think we would have done at that stage.
MR COWARD
it might be a matter of record, it is not until 22nd October
that someone worked out the correct times for the video?
BRIAN FARMER
that's right, I am aware of that, yes.
MR
COWARD
when Mr Huntley came to the door he told you, didn't he,
that he was a bit suspicious about your arrival because
he had already been hounded by the police?
BRIAN
FARMER
the - police.
MR COWARD
the police or the press?
BRIAN FARMER
he referred to one reporter - he didn't say he had been
hounded by the press in the sense of hordes of journalists
outside the door he referred to one reporter from the
Sun*.
MR COWARD
does the name
DEBBIE TUBBY
ring bells?
BRIAN FARMER
the name rings bells with me but I don't believe that
was the name he gave; in fact, I'm certain that was not
the name he gave.
MR COWARD
NAZANINE MOSHIRI?
BRIAN FARMER
I can't remember what the name was.
MR
COWARD
at the time (inaudible) arrived at the house there was
no photographer?
BRIAN FARMER
no.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley said he didn't want a photograph taken?
BRIAN FARMER
I don't remember. He said it as we arrived at the doorway,
I can't remember whether the topic came up, it may have
had done, I simply can't remember.
MR
COWARD
he may have said it to you before you went out and spoke
to ANDREW PARSONS, didn't he?
BRIAN
FARMER
before I went out and spoke to him - I can't remember.
He said it earlier on in the conversation.
MR
COWARD
it is a long time ago. I am looking at a statement you
made on 17th August. Let us look at the relevant passage
"we checked his name which I said he said was Ian
Huntley, and I began taking various notes. In the early
part of the conversation the young woman did join in,
we identified her as Maxine Carr. I then noticed my photographer
outside, ANDREW PARSONS, and I left the house to get him.
We returned together soon afterwards, after five minutes.
I knew Huntley did not want his photograph taken so I
told Andrew this."?
BRIAN FARMER
it may well have been then, it may well have been we had
spoken in the early stage of the conversation when he
said he didn't want his photograph taken.
MR
COWARD
so if he had said he didn't want his photograph taken
why did you invite
ANDREW PARSONS
in?
BRIAN FARMER
because we needed a picture of Miss Carr.
MR
COWARD
of Miss Carr? only of Miss Carr?
BRIAN
FARMER
ideally we needed a picture of both of them but Miss Carr
didn't give an indication she didn't want her photograph
taken; she had an interesting photograph to take because
see had a card from Holly to hold up, so if nothing else----?
MR COWARD
You were hoping to get a photograph of Mr Huntley as well?
BRIAN FARMER
we were hoping Mr Huntley would have his photograph taken.
MR COWARD
that you could persuade him, when the question of him
having his photograph taken came up, what he actually
said to you was this, wasn't it "even my mother doesn't
have a recent photograph of me".?
BRIAN
FARMER
I don't remember the word recent. what I remember him
saying is "Even my mother doesn't have a photograph."
I don't remember the word recent.
MR
COWARD
thinking about it now, does it not strike you that was
a remarkable thing to say that she had got no photographs
of Ian Huntley in a pram, on the beach or anything?
BRIAN FARMER
it struck me as an absolutely incredible thing to say.
I couldn't believe it to be honest.
MR
COWARD
that's why I suggested that he said she doesn't have a
recent photograph of me?
BRIAN FARMER
no, that's not my recollection at all. He said she doesn't
have a photograph of me.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley told you, didn't he, that when he saw the girls
he was outside with his dog and he was cleaning his dog
?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, he did. I think he may have used the word washing
but cleaning his dog.
MR COWARD
I suggest he didn't use the word washing, he used the
word cleaning?
BRIAN FARMER
from memory it was washing, but he may have said cleaning.
MR COWARD
when you queried the difference between the time 5.45
that he had said, that the police had given to you, and
his new time, you told the Members of the Jury that he
said to you that he had told the police about the change
of time?
BRIAN FARMER
he did say that, yes.
MR COWARD
members of the Jury, for reference purposes, it is chronology
page 11, 10.30, detective sergeant Read, "Huntley
wished to change time of statement." that's Wednesday,
7th August. thank you, Mr Farmer.
BRIAN
FARMER
thank you
Cross-examined by MR HUBBARD.
MR HUBBARD
when Maxine Carr was talking about the card----?
BRIAN FARMER
the card.
MR HUBBARD
----the card, she told you Holly had given to it her on
the last day of term?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, certainly at the end of term, yes, when she had finished
her job.
MR HUBBARD
you said earlier that you remember Maxine recallling that
she had been in the bath?
BRIAN FARMER
that's right.
MR HUBBARD
do you have any note of that?
BRIAN
FARMER
do I have any note of that? I can't remember, I have not
seen my notebook since.
MR HUBBARD
I'm looking at your statement, I think you said that remark
and, in fact, it was not in your notes?
BRIAN
FARMER
it is just an aberration in my notes, she definitely said
she had been in the bath.
MR HUBBARD
do you have your notes available?
BRIAN
FARMER
I haven't got them. .
MR HUBBARD
you haven't? thank you.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
he has accepted it is not in his notes.
MR
LATHAM
Have whatever we have got that might assist you. Have
you noted anywhere that Maxine said to you that she recalled
she was in the bath?
BRIAN FARMER
I am assuming, if it is not in my transcript, for some
reason I haven't - I accept that I haven't----
MR LATHAM
Are you sure you have got that right?
BRIAN
FARMER
I'm absolutely certain I have got it right, yes.
MR LATHAM
Mr Farmer, do you use shorthand?
BRIAN
FARMER
I do.
MR LATHAM
At your right hand there is there a photocopy of something?
BRIAN FARMER
of my shorthand notebook.
MR LATHAM
were you then asked to do something in relation to that
shorthand note at some stage - you have the shorthand
notebook; have you something in your left hand?
BRIAN FARMER
I have a transcript.
MR LATHAM
who produced that transcript?
BRIAN
FARMER
I was asked by the police to make a transcript.
MR LATHAM
I can't read your shorthand but I have looked at the transcript,
can I just invite you to look, I think it is about three
pages into the transcript, in relation to the question
you have just been asked about whether or not Maxine Carr
said anything about being in the bath?
BRIAN
FARMER
yes. there is a reference in the transcript - sorry, I'm
looking three pages into the transcript.
MR
HUBBARD
look at the transcript to see if you have any note of
any reference to the bath?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, there is.
MR HUBBARD
what have you noted?
BRIAN FARMER
my note reads "I cannot believe that they ran away.
I was in the bath when Ian saw them. I keep thinking 'if
only I had seen them'. Ian was talking to them for ages
and they might have told me something."
MR HUBBARD
the---
MR LATHAM
the next line?
BRIAN FARMER
"they used to call me Maxine."
MR
LATHAM
that's as far as I need take that. that's a transcript
of your shorthand note?
BRIAN FARMER
a transcript of my note.
MR LATHAM
your notebook - when were the shorthand notes placed in
your notebook in relation to this interview you have been
talking about?
BRIAN FARMER
as Miss Carr was talking.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
how on earth does this get in this statement to mislead
the defence and me.
MR LATHAM
my Lord he is adopting (inaudible).
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
why is there - some police officer witnessed a statement
and led this witness no doubt, and me and the defence
too - it is a totally misleading thing, it is not this
witness's fault, and rather unfair on MR HUBBARD.
MR HUBBARD
could we have the date, please, when this transcript was
made?
MR LATHAM
my Lord, if we go to page 1416, which is the end of this
witness statement, my Lord will see he produces a transcript
of his notes, WBF2, it is an exhibit in the case, as are
his shorthand notes, WBF3, annexed to the witness statement.
That's what I have been asking him to look at.
MR HUBBARD
I'm sorry, could we have the dates of this transcript,
when he made the transcript?
BRIAN FARMER
yes, I interviewed Miss Carr and Mr Huntley on the Thursday,
which would have been the 8th. I made the transcript ten
days later, so not the following Saturday but the Saturday
after that, the Saturday morning.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
thank you.
BRIAN FARMER
whatever date that would be, 17th.
MR
HUBBARD
so ten days after?
BRIAN FARMER
ten days after, I made the transcript.
MR
LATHAM
may I just ask something about that.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
certainly.
MR LATHAM
you told us a matter of a few minutes ago that the shorthand
note in your red notebook, which is the document photocopied
on the right hand side, was the note you were taking down
as the interview was progressing?
BRIAN
FARMER
verbatim, I was writing it down.
MR
LATHAM
the transcript at your left-hand, what is that a transcript
of?
BRIAN FARMER
the notes in my shorthand notebook.
MR
LATHAM
which you wrote out?
BRIAN FARMER
ten days later, the transcript.
MR LATHAM
yes. thank you very much
{the witness withdrew}.
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