| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
19/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 19 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.
Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer.
MR JUSTICE MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07
MR LATHAM
ANDREW PARSONS, please
(ANDREW PARSONS, sworn)
Examined by MR LATHAM.
MR LATHAM
your full name, please?
ANDREW PARSONS
it is ANDREW PARSONS
MR LATHAM
I think you are a press photographer, is that right?
ANDREW PARSONS
that is correct.
MR LATHAM
Were you working for the Press Association based in East
Anglia in August last year?
ANDREW PARSONS
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I think from Monday, 5th August you spent a good deal
of time in the area of Soham once the news about the disappearance
of Holly and Jessica had become public?
ANDREW
PARSONS
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
may I turn straight away to Thursday, 8th August, when
I think you attended a press conference arranged by the
police in the college hall at around ten o'clock in the
morning, did you not?
ANDREW PARSONS
I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
did there come a time when a colleague of yours, BRIAN
FARMER , asked you if you would go into number 5 College
Close, where he and a number of other journalists were
talking to two people?
ANDREW PARSONS
he did, that's correct.
MR LATHAM
I don't think there is any dispute that the two people
were Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr. What I want to do is
to ask you about your recollection of any topics of conversation
which were covered while you were present. Had you been
there at the outset or did you come in after the conversation
had started?
ANDREW PARSONS
I came in probably half-way through.
MR
LATHAM
you are a photographer, were you taking notes of what
had been said?
ANDREW PARSONS
I didn't take any notes.
MR LATHAM
were you in fact concentrating on everything that was
being said or not?
ANDREW PARSONS
yes, more or less, yes.
MR LATHAM
can you help us with what you recollect being spoken about
while you were there?
ANDREW PARSONS
there was- the first thing I can remember, there was some
discussion about timings, about the police saying Mr Huntley
had seen them at quarter to six and he said "No it
is quarter past six", which I remember.
MR LATHAM
yes. do you remember the explanation for what, on the
face of it, seemed to be a discrepancy?
ANDREW
PARSONS
yes.
MR LATHAM
what was the explanation?
ANDREW PARSONS
the reason was he was outside washing the car, it was
quarter past 6. He was washing the car. The dog was dirty
and he wanted to wash it in the bath, but he said Maxine
was in the bath at quarter past six, he definitely said
"Quarter past 6", because he was due to make
the dinner.
MR LATHAM
was anything else said about the bath?
ANDREW
PARSONS
the fact that dinner was prepared and ready for the time
(inaudible).
MR LATHAM
any topics, other topics of conversation?
ANDREW
PARSONS
there was one about the chat room.
MR
LATHAM
what was that?
ANDREW PARSONS
my colleague, BRIAN FARMER, was talking about the fact
that the girls may have gone in a chat room. He was saying
that do you think they would understand how to use a chat
room as he wouldn't and probably his daughter wouldn't
be able to, and there was a reply by Ian Huntley saying
"Yes, definitely. They were very intelligent girls
and it would not be a problem they could use a chat room,
quite simple." I remember this point because there
wasn't-, he wasn't actually responding to any of the other
conversations until this was mentioned.
MR
LATHAM
you are a photographer?
ANDREW PARSONS
yes.
MR LATHAM
your job is to take photographs; what happened about any
photographs while you were on the premises?
ANDREW PARSONS
well, originally, the picture that I wanted to take was
of Mr Huntley and Miss Carr. Miss Carr was happy to do
so and therefore did , I took a picture of Maxine, but
I obviously needed Mr Huntley in it as well and he later
refused to be in the picture. I later said that a picture
of you would be taken at some point and he didn't believe
me. He said no, no-one can take my picture without my
permission and I said unfortunately we can, because of
the way we work, the camera on public property we can
take any picture we want to. I remember going up to the
window and pointing out the fact that there were media
in the front of the college at the time, the fact we would
get a picture (inaudible). He later said "No you
won't because, sorry we are going away, the police have
no numbers so we won't be round." .
MR
LATHAM
did you take any photographs while you were there in fact?
ANDREW PARSONS
yes, I took a picture, one of the card the girls had presented
Miss Carr with and then a picture of Miss Carr holding
the card.
MR LATHAM
can I take you back to the account in relation to the
timing of that day. you have told us that he was explaining
that he was outside the house doing something?
ANDREW PARSONS
that's what he was telling us at the time.
MR
LATHAM
as best you can, can you give us as much detail of that
part of the conversation, what he said he was doing outside
the house?
ANDREW PARSONS
yes, sure. Could I have some water, please?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
of course. go on?
ANDREW PARSONS
I can remember the discussion being that the fact that
the timings were wrong, and Mr Huntley insisted it was
quarter past six, because he can recall he was washing
the car; the dog had come back dirty as if it had run
away, and he wanted to wash the dog in the bath but couldn't
get in the bath because of Miss Carr, and said he ended
up washing the dog outside the house and I thought right,
I know what's going to happen now----
MR
LATHAM
I do not need to know what you thought. Can we concentrate
on what he or she said? Did Maxine say anything at this
point while this explanation was going on?
ANDREW
PARSONS
there was some laughter about the fact of the dog getting
in the bath and the fact that Maxine was in the bath and
saying, oh yes, that's right, you did, sort of, a slight
sort of smile perhaps.
MR LATHAM
where did you understand, by the end of this explanation,
that the dog had been washed?
ANDREW
PARSONS
whereabouts?
MR LATHAM
where was the dog in the event when it had been washed?
ANDREW PARSONS
I was led to believe the dog was washed, in the end, outside
the house.
MR LATHAM
did Ian Huntley say anything about what had happened in
relation to him and the two girls?
ANDREW
PARSONS
no.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much, Mr Parsons, would you wait there.
Cross-examined by MR COWARD .
MR COWARD
within a short period of arriving inside No. 5 College
Close it was made clear to you Mr Huntley did not want
you to take his photograph?
ANDREW PARSONS
that's correct.
MR COWARD
and that was his right - as you appreciated?
ANDREW PARSONS
because, yes, we were in what is known as private property,
in his house, therefore, you know, you cannot force anyone
to have their picture taken.
MR COWARD
the technique you used was to take - well, if we don't
do it, look, there is that lot out there, they will get
a photograph of you. In a nutshell that was it, wasn't
it?
ANDREW PARSONS
that is what I said, yes, I was making Mr Huntley aware
that this actually is an easier option and a better option
because therefore there would be a picture of Mr Huntley
and Miss Carr in the house under controlled circumstances;
the two of them looking straight at the camera, where
other techniques would involve us taking pictures where
they wouldn't obviously be so controlled.
MR
COWARD
you actually said to him, didn't you "Look there,
there are papers like The News of the World, they will
get photographs of you, so you may as well give me one
now?
ANDREW PARSONS
to be honest I don't recall saying "better give me
one now."
MR COWARD
you also said "I'm from the Press Association, if
you give us a photograph, anybody in the press association
won't need to ask you for another photograph?"
ANDREW PARSONS
yes, "If we have a picture of the two of you, we
will not need another picture." We wouldn't though.
MR COWARD
do you have a memory of Mr Huntley saying he was washing
his car when the dog came home?
ANDREW
PARSONS
yes. Whether it was when the dog came home gave a memory
of him saying he was washing his car and the dog was dirty.
MR COWARD
I suggest he never, ever, said to you that on that day,
certainly at the time the dog came home, he was washing
his car. That's the memory you have got of him?
ANDREW PARSONS
because that's how we got talking about, that's how I
remember the conversation about the bath, the dog being
washed in the bath.
MR COWARD
I suggest what Mr Huntley said to you or said to the group
that you were present and listening to it, was that he
was cleaning the dog outside, which had run away and come
home, when the girls arrived. Not washing his car?
ANDREW PARSONS
I was under the impression he was washing his car and
therefore he washed the dog because he was washing the
car, instead of giving the dog a bath.
MR
COWARD
one final matter when the question of chat rooms and the
Internet came up, it was Mr Farmer wasn't it, who said
I wouldn't have a clue how to get into chat rooms on the
Internet?
ANDREW PARSONS
that's correct.
MR COWARD
and the reply was, well you may not, Mr Farmer, but ten
year olds can do it quite easily?
ANDREW
PARSONS
I don't recall the fact that it was ten year olds would
be able to do it easily , I recall the fact that he said
"They would be able to because they were intelligent
girls."
MR COWARD
keen of that age?
ANDREW PARSONS
he said he indicated that general children of that age
were intelligent.
MR COWARD
of Jessica and----?
ANDREW PARSONS
yes, it sounded to me actually directing it at those two.
MR COWARD
but that was actually said by Maxine, wasn't it not Mr
Huntley?
ANDREW PARSONS
not that I recall, no. I thought - no , I would say it
was Mr Huntley.
MR HUBBARD
You think that was Mr Huntley?
ANDREW
PARSONS
yes, .
MR HUBBARD
you tell us you didn't write anything down as this conversation
was taking place?
ANDREW PARSONS
that's correct.
MR HUBBARD
you never made any notes subsequently?
ANDREW
PARSONS
no.
MR HUBBARD
Twelve days later you made a statement to the police?
ANDREW PARSONS
that's correct yes.
MR HUBBARD
and tried to recall as best you could the conversation
that had taken place those twelve days before?
ANDREW PARSONS
that's right.
MR HUBBARD
and you got it wrong , I suggest. what do you say to that?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
which respect, to a broader question?
MR
HUBBARD
so far as any reference to the bath, Maxine being in the
bath, on that occasion I emphasise?
ANDREW
PARSONS
you say that's wrong?
MR HUBBARD
yes?
ANDREW PARSONS
no, in response to the fact, I remember that specifically
because it is almost a bizarre conversation to have.
MR HUBBARD
you are sure it is not what you heard from someone else?
ANDREW PARSONS
positive.
MR HUBBARD
all you were really concerned about was taking a photograph,
wasn't it?
ANDREW PARSONS
not really, no, because in the circumstances of the story
and the case, you know, to be sensitive about things,
no, I wasn't being there purely, you know - you still
gather information whether you are a photographer or a
reporter.
MR HUBBARD
you were there as a photographer to get a photograph,
weren't you?
ANDREW PARSONS
yes.
MR HUBBARD
and you wanted the credit of taking that photograph rather
than the News of the World or anyone else?
ANDREW
PARSONS
no, I disagree. in this case, in that situation of course
it is very fragile - the story itself is very fragile,
therefore you try and do it so that people won't be mobbed
by the press, the Press Association works so that every
paper in the country gets it, why would you want to put
anyone through the fact of people hanging around their
door.
MR HUBBARD
are you saying you had their feelings at heart?
ANDREW PARSONS
yes, I am, yes. because we have been in a situation before
it has worked, and we do a lot of one-on-ones, as it were.
MR LATHAM
you have been challenged about your recollection of any
mention of Maxine Carr being in the bath?
ANDREW
PARSONS
yes.
MR LATHAM
and you have said something about it being, I think you
used the word "bizarre" just now in relation
to the description, just help us with why, if it is, it
is something you recollect?
ANDREW PARSONS
well, the fact we were sitting there. Sorry - I was standing
there. I can remember, I can remember the two of them
looking at each other when the bath was discussed and
I thought----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
don't us tell us what you thought?
ANDREW
PARSONS
sorry. From the point on when I was interviewed, I remembered
that conversation; it was a clear conversation.
MR LATHAM
again, in relation to the bath, you mentioned something
about the dog in the bath and Maxine?
ANDREW
PARSONS
yes.
MR LATHAM
what was that?
ANDREW PARSONS
the fact that Maxine had to get out of the bath so the
dog could get in the bath. It is difficult to----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that stuck in your memory, I think is what you are trying
to say. I wouldn't put you out by saying why. Thank you
very much.
MR HUBBARD
can I clear something up, I hope to assist the Crown?
it wouldn't be disputed she said words to that effect
to other press people, but I had to put it to this witness.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes yes you don't have to challenge everything.
{the witness withdrew}.
MR
LATHAM
JAMES McKILLOP please 1422.
(JAMES McKILLOP,
sworn)
Examined by MR LATHAM
MR LATHAM
Full name, please?
JAMES McKILLOP
JAMES McKILLOP.
MR LATHAM
you are the Deputy London Editor for The Herald, a Scottish
national newspaper?
JAMES McKILLOP
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
and in August of last year, did you spend several days
in Soham working on the disappearance of the two girls,
Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman?
JAMES
McKILLOP
I did.
MR LATHAM
I want to asked you about Thursday, 8th August at a time
surely after the press conference that took place around
ten o'clock in the morning on that day?
JAMES
McKILLOP
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think there came a time when you went into the home
of Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr, is that right?
JAMES McKILLOP
that is correct.
MR LATHAM
before you actually went into the home, was there any
conversation that you can recollect on the doorstep?
JAMES McKILLOP
yes, do you mean between the journalists involved or between
myself and Mr Huntley.
MR LATHAM
I mean when Mr Huntley was involved, not between the journalists
when he was not there, but anything that was said while
he was present and able to hear what was being said?
JAMES McKILLOP
Mr Huntley opened the door and he said that he was willing,
very happy to do anything which he could to help find
the two missing girls, but he also added that a woman
from television, BBC, had been trying to get in contact
with him and he didn't want to appear on television but
he was quite happy to speak to us.
MR
LATHAM
now did you go into his home and did there ensue a conversation
in the living room involving both Ian Huntley and Maxine
Carr?
JAMES McKILLOP
I did.
MR LATHAM
did you make any notes at all, either during or immediately
after that conversation?
JAMES McKILLOP
I made notes during the conversation.
MR
LATHAM
what did you put the notes in?
JAMES
McKILLOP
a just a normal reporter notebook, about that size.
MR LATHAM
did you subsequently do something with those notes that
you had taken at the time?
JAMES McKILLOP
yes, I did. the notebook was getting very tatty, I was
also writing stories in it and I had been tearing away
pages but I realised I would need a note of what was said,
for my own purposes, so I copied it into other notebook
sometime later directly. .
MR LATHAM
when you copied it across into another notebook, did you,
as it were, change what was in the original notebook or
leave it as it was?
JAMES McKILLOP
it is pretty well as it was, in fact.
MR
LATHAM
I would like you to have a look at a photocopy, we have
not got the original here, but would you look at a document
(same handed) Do you recognise that?
JAMES
McKILLOP
yes, I do.
MR LATHAM
what is that?
JAMES McKILLOP
this is the copy I made from my notes, from my notebook.
MR LATHAM
you told us as far as you are aware it is close to word
for word what was in the original note?
JAMES
McKILLOP
indeed so.
MR LATHAM
do you know how long after this interview you in fact
transferred what you had written down originally into
that book?
JAMES McKILLOP
I did this in my home during a weekend, either the weekend
after Mr Huntley and Miss Carr had been arrested or the
weekend after that.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
what happened to the original note?
JAMES
McKILLOP
it was discarded.
MR LATHAM
if you need to refer to that you may do so as I am asking
you questions. What was the first top topic of conversation?
JAMES McKILLOP
the first topic in fact was the timing where Mr Huntley
had said he told the police he had in actual fact met
the two girls.
MR LATHAM
why was it a topic of conversation?
JAMES
McKILLOP
well, he had told the police that he had met them at 5.45,
and that seemed impossible to me.
MR
LATHAM
what did he in fact say was the time that he had seen
them?
JAMES McKILLOP
well, he said in actual fact that he had since spoken
to the police and told them that time was inaccurate,
he said it was more likely he had seen them at 6.15.
MR LATHAM
did he say what he had been doing when he had seen the
girls?
JAMES McKILLOP
he said he had been washing his dog, an Alsatian dog called
Sadie earlier that day. He said she slipped out from the
house and had run away and she had come back, she was
filthy.
MR LATHAM
we have.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
we have already had all this twice; can we get to the
bits in dispute.
MR LATHAM
my Lord I was (inaudible). (To the witness) I have been
asked to, I think there was a conversation with Miss Carr
about her job and so on, is that correct?
JAMES
McKILLOP
yes, indeed.
MR LATHAM
and, indeed, reference to a car?
JAMES
McKILLOP
yes, that's so.
MR LATHAM
towards the end of that conversation was there any discussion
about the two girls and their reaction or likely reaction
? in your notes, it is about six pages in?
JAMES
McKILLOP
sorry could you repeat your question.
MR
LATHAM
about six pages in, something about the girls reaction,
if you look at your note. that's six pages into your notes.
I think you may have a note relating to a reference to
the girls. Was there reference to the girls and their
behaviour, or likely behaviour?
JAMES
McKILLOP
the likely behaviour?
MR LATHAM
yes?
JAMES McKILLOP
yes, indeed. There was.
MR LATHAM
(inaudible) what you are about to describe?
JAMES McKILLOP
Maxine Carr.
MR LATHAM
what did she say?
JAMES McKILLOP
she said that the two girls would not have got into a
car with a stranger. They would have kicked up a right
stink and they would have screamed out if someone tried
to get hold of them, particularly Jessica, I think from
memory, would kick out.
MR LATHAM
did Mr Huntley say anything?
JAMES McKILLOP
yes, he did. He said in actual fact that it has to be
to people you know and trust.
MR LATHAM
did he say something else?
JAMES McKILLOP
he said it seemed the two girls had just dropped off the
face of the world, how can two girls disappear in board
daylight like that. it beggars belief.
MR
LATHAM
did he add something?
JAMES McKILLOP
he added I can't see them going off, especially - sorry,
that was Miss Carr.
MR LATHAM
Miss Carr said that, what did she say?
JAMES
McKILLOP
she said I can't see them going off, especially as there
was a barbecue, and reference to them going off on their
own.
MR LATHAM
did she add something else?
JAMES McKILLOP
she said that if she had not been having a bath she would
have spoken to the two girls for an hour.
MR
LATHAM
finally did Ian Huntley say something else you noted?
JAMES McKILLOP
yes, he did. He said that he had been up every night,
he had been with the police helping them in the search
of the school grounds.
MR LATHAM
did he mention a particular police force?
JAMES
McKILLOP
he said particularly he had been with Essex police but
also with officers from other forces.
MR
LATHAM
at that point what was his demeanour like?
JAMES
McKILLOP
at that stage he was choking back tears, his eyes were
welling .
MR LATHAM
did he say something?
JAMES McKILLOP
he said that they wouldn't have gone away, they didn't
have a care in the world when he last saw them. He said,
I think I may have put the question to him, they were
as happy as Larry, and he agreed with that.
MR LATHAM
the expression "they were as happy as Larry"
may be your expression?
JAMES McKILLOP
that he agreed with.
MR LATHAM
when you put that expression, he agreed with it?
JAMES McKILLOP
he did.
MR LATHAM
thank you. would you wait there, please.
Cross-examined by MR COWARD.
MR
COWARD
just one matter, I have a statement made by you relating
to these events ... and you deal with a topic you have
just dealt with with my learned friend how the girls would
react if something happened?
JAMES McKILLOP
yes.
MR COWARD
you have told the Members of the Jury that Maxine said
to you "they wouldn't have gone with someone they
didn't know, they would have kicked up a right stink.
They would have screamed out if someone tried to get hold
of them"?
JAMES McKILLOP
that is so.
MR COWARD
those words appear exactly in your witness statement?
JAMES McKILLOP
yes.
MR COWARD
but when you gave evidence you added something from your
memory and you said that Maxine said, "It may be
important, particularly Jessica", do you remember
that?
JAMES McKILLOP
I do.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much
(The witness withdrew)
MR JUSTICE MOSES
we'll stop there, ladies and gentlemen, back at two o'clock.
remember the warning I gave you. Hearing adjourned - will
resume after lunch
MR LATHAM
DAVID MILLWARD, please
(DAVID
MILLWARD, sworn)
Examined by MR LATHAM
MR LATHAM
your full name, please?
DAVID MILLWARD
David Graham Millward.
MR LATHAM
Mr Millward, I think you are a staff reporter for the
Daily Telegraph, is that correct?
DAVID
MILLWARD
that is correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
you were one of those journalists who went into the home
of Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr on Thursday, 8th August
of last year, I think, weren't you?
DAVID
MILLWARD
I was, yes.
MR LATHAM
do you have shorthand?
DAVID MILLWARD
I do, yes.
MR LATHAM
I am going to ask you to look at a document, if you will,
please? it is a photocopy of your shorthand notes. Do
you recognise that, Mr Millward?
DAVID
MILLWARD
yes, that is my shorthand note taken on the day when I
was in Soham, includes previous notes taken before I went
to the house and----
MR LATHAM
Mr Millward, we want to concentrate on what happened in
the house, if I may, involving Ian Huntley and Maxine
Carr. Would those notes be a verbatim transcript of each
and every word spoken during the entirety of the time
you were in the house, or what is the position?
DAVID MILLWARD
I would not describe them as verbatim and exhaustive but
I would describe them as extensive, probably more than
75% of what was said.
MR LATHAM
right. Shortly after you started talking with Ian Huntley,
did he introduce himself as the site manager for the school?
DAVID MILLWARD
yes, that would be pretty much the first thing that he
said.
MR LATHAM
did he go on to give an account of what had happened on
the Sunday evening?
DAVID MILLWARD
Yes, he did.
MR LATHAM
can you tell us what you noted as having been said?
DAVID MILLWARD
he said that he was outside with his dog, Sadie, he described
the time as quarter past six and cleaning the dog. He
said that these two girls stopped outside and they asked
for Miss Carr, "my girlfriend", where she was.
He - they were upset that she had had not got a job at
the college; she had been a teaching assistant and told
them that she was applying for another job.
MR LATHAM
did he indicate where the two girls had come from?
DAVID MILLWARD
yes, looking at it, it doesn't appear to be in my note
but he indicated they had come from behind him because
he had been washing the car so they approached from the
college.
MR LATHAM
can we take it in stages what did he say he was doing
just before the girl arrived?
DAVID
MILLWARD
he said he was washing, he was outside with the dog, washing
the dog.
MR LATHAM
washing the dog, and?
DAVID MILLWARD
"I was cleaning the dog down, these two girls stopped
outside the house and asked how Miss Carr, my girlfriend,
was."
MR LATHAM
I do not want to go through the entirety of what you have
noted down there. I think you were shown a card at some
stage is that right?
DAVID MILLWARD
sorry didn't hear.
MR LATHAM
You were shown a card in the house at some stage?
DAVID MILLWARD
yes, that's correct, it was a card from, if I remember
correctly, Holly.
MR LATHAM
yes, again we need not go through, but I think you noted
down some of the words which were endorsed on the card
didn't you?
DAVID MILLWARD
Yes, I took the precaution of noting those in long hand.
MR LATHAM
I do not need to go through it. Did Maxine Carr state
something, shortly after you had seen the card, about
what she had been doing?
DAVID MILLWARD
yes, she said that she had been in the bath at the time
the girls arrived.
MR LATHAM
did she then make an observation about that?
DAVID MILLWARD
she did, yes.
MR LATHAM
what did she say?
DAVID MILLWARD
she said that had she not been in the bath and been chatting
with the girls, they would have been there for hours.
MR LATHAM
did Huntley say anything about the two girls?
DAVID MILLWARD
from memory and looking at the note, not a great deal
about the character.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you said the description of the girls' characters and
personalities were primarily given by Maxine Carr?
DAVID MILLWARD
Yes, he made a few observations; a phase he used "They
were as happy as Larry.
MR LATHAM
was there any conversation about how either girl might
have reacted to any approach?
DAVID
MILLWARD
yes, there was. He said they would have screamed blue
murder if anybody had tried to abduct them.
MR LATHAM
did Ian Huntley pass any observation about who it might
have been, or the nature of the people it might have been,
or person it might have been?
DAVID
MILLWARD
no, he didn't.
MR LATHAM
after the reference to screaming out if they had been
approached, do you have a note of anything that he said?
DAVID MILLWARD
hang on. looking at my note, he seems to have observed
there has to be, sorry it has to be, people they know
and trust.
MR LATHAM
that's what I was asking about, so had to be person or
people?
DAVID MILLWARD
looking at my note, there has to be two people they know
and trust.
MR LATHAM
I am grateful. Did Maxine Carr say anything after that?
DAVID MILLWARD
yes, they would not have got into a car. I can't see them
wanting to wander off anywhere, especially when there
is a barbecue.
MR LATHAM
did Huntley say something?
DAVID MILLWARD
"it seems they have disappeared off the face of the
earth, how can two girls go missing in broad daylight?
it begars belief."
MR LATHAM
thank you, will you wait. I have not ask you about everything
you have noted down there, but that will suffice Mr Millward,
wait there please. .
MR COWARD
You said at one stage he was "washing" the dog
and at another stage "cleaning" the dog,?
DAVID MILLWARD
if I can just check my note. The exact words appear to
be, "I was outside with the dog, Sadie", and
he then goes on to say, "I was cleaning the dog down";
he made two references.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
cleaning the dog?
DAVID MILLWARD
down.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you.
MR COWARD
So I'm not making any false point, you told us something
about the same topic again. Do you have, I think you said
you didn't actually write it down - I don't know where
they came from, but you remember him saying that?
DAVID MILLWARD
that is from memory, yes.
MR COWARD
do you have a note about him looking up and they were
at the back of the car?
DAVID MILLWARD
my note seems to say, "These two girls stopped outside
the house and asked how Maxine Carr was", so the
answer seems to be----
MR COWARD
you carry on with the shorthand note from there,, "She
used to be a teaching assistant there. I said 'she is
not very good, she didn't get the job' - just saw them
for a few minutes"?
DAVID MILLWARD
that's correct.
MR COWARD
go on. "... don't know where they came from."
You told us that is not in the note but you remember it....
then, "I was kneeling down"?
DAVID
MILLWARD
looking at my note more carefully, "I just saw them
for a few minutes", I appear to have noted down,
"I don't know where they came from ... I was kneeling
down, I was washing the dog."
MR
COWARD
you looked to the right in answer that question; you have
actually written in the right hand margin, haven't you,
"washing the dog"?
DAVID MILLWARD
that is correct.
MR COWARD
but what does the actual shorthand scribble say, can you
be sure?
DAVID MILLWARD
I think I can possibly explain why, if there are extra
bits of notes, the notes look slightly - slightly messy
rather than a clean transcription. What one does when
you do an interview with a number of journalists, we would
actually check our notes afterwards to make sure we have
as full and accurate a transcription of what was said
as possible, so, looking at this, I think what I have
done, I have gone back and added the bits of the quotes
that I have missed and I have added them probably within
five minutes of the carrying out the interview.
MR COWARD
in stages. after the reference to - do you have the words
in shorthand "he was kneeling down"?
DAVID MILLWARD
part in shorthand, part in longhand "I was kneeling
down, I was washing the dog."
MR
COWARD
do you have the word "washing" in shorthand?
DAVID MILLWARD
no, the word washing in fact is in long hand.
MR COWARD
but thats in the right hand margin isn't it?
DAVID MILLWARD
that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
so that appears to be an after addition. What I'm trying
to find out is what you have originally written in shorthand?
DAVID MILLWARD
yes, as I have explained, looking at the note, I would
guess - but I can't swear on it - that because it is,
because it appears to be a slight addition to----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
will you just answer the question, what is in your shorthand
note, forget about what is in long hand?
DAVID
MILLWARD
could you repeat the question, please.
MR
COWARD
when you talked about she didn't get the job "She
is not very happy, she didn't get the job", and then
"I don't know where they came from", you say
it is not important. Read on from there, something about
kneeling, do you have the word kneeling in shorthand?
DAVID MILLWARD
no the word kneeling is in long hand.
MR
COWARD
in shorthand what comes after the kneeling?
DAVID MILLWARD
down.
MR COWARD
carry on?
DAVID MILLWARD
"washing the dog."
MR COWARD
that's in shorthand?
DAVID MILLWARD
that's in long hand. then further down, in shorthand I
have "When I..." and in long, "...looked,
they were standing by the back of the car."
MR COWARD
so you don't actually have in shorthand either the word
for "cleaning" or the word for "washing"
at that point, do you?
DAVID MILLWARD
I have the word for cleaning in shorthand at the start
of my note. I have the word for washing in long hand further
down in the note.
MR COWARD
so the only shorthand version of it that you have says
"cleaning"?
DAVID MILLWARD
that is correct, yes.
MR COWARD
thank you very much. .
MR LATHAM
no re-examination
{the witness withdrew}
(NAZANINE MOSHIRI, sworn)
Examined by MR LATHAM.
MR LATHAM
can you tell us your full name, please?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
NAZANINE MOSHIRI.
MR LATHAM
in August last year you were a broadcast journalist employed
by, was it the BBC, or another organisation that worked
for the BBC?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
no, it was BBC Radio 1.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
terribly intrigued by that bit blacked out.
MR LATHAM
I was too. I think you began covering the story of the
missing girls on Monday, 5th August last year didn't you?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
I want to ask you about Thursday, 8th August. I think
during the course of, round lunch time, or just after
lunch time, you went to Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr's
home in order to try to get an interview, is that correct?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes I did. I actually knocked on the door and Maxine Carr
answered, and she was quite tearful and distressed when
she answered the door, and basically told me to go away.
MR LATHAM
before she asked you go away, did you get round to telling
her you worked for BBC Radio 1?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
I said I want to do an interview with Ian Huntley for
BBC Radio 1, and she just seemed very upset.
MR LATHAM
as a result of that, did you do precisely that, walk away
from the house?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
a short while later, did another journalist from the press
association approach you, do you know who it was in fact
?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes, it was Brian, the surname escapes me now.
MR LATHAM
BRIAN FARMER I think?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes, that's it. He approached me.
MR
LATHAM
As a result of what he said to you, did you decide to
go back to the house and try again?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
and in fact on that occasion did you start by speaking
to Ian Huntley?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes.
MR LATHAM
was that outside or inside, when you first spoke to him?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
it was actually- the door was open, so it was on the doorstep,
so to speak.
MR LATHAM
what did he tell you as soon as you went up to the house?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
well, we had a discussion about the interview and I said
to him you don't have to do it if you don't want to, and
he said that he had thought about it and he thought if
I could guarantee that no one else would come knocking
on his door I said I cannot do that, I can speak to my
colleagues at the BBC but I can't guarantee other agencies
or journalists wouldn't come knocking on your door. He
said to me well it might help a bit I suppose and he agreed
to do the interview.
MR LATHAM
in referring to "it might help a bit I suppose",
help what? is that just what he said?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
I think he meant it might help a bit as in it might stop
other people coming and hassling him for an interview.
MR LATHAM
did you as a result of his agreement to being interviewed
go into the house?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes, I did.
MR LATHAM
which room in the house did you go into?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
the first room I went into was the living room where I
sat down with Ian Huntley - and Maxine Carr was there
as well.
MR LATHAM
do you remember Maxine Carr saying anything to you very
shortly after you came into the room about the girls?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes. She said, "I'm sorry about before. I loved those
two little girls and, you know, we are just very upset
about it."
MR LATHAM
you described how she was earlier upset, how was she by
the time you were speaking to her in her own living room?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
very different smiling, playing around with her hair,
she seemed different, she wasn't crying, she wasn't upset
any more.
MR LATHAM
there came a time when you did conduct an interview, a
taped interview, correct?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes.
MR LATHAM
was there any conversation, general conversation with
either him or with both of them, before you got round
to the recorded interview?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
we, yes, we had a chat in general about sort of the press
coverage, what was going on in Soham, all the press being
there.
MR LATHAM
what was his reaction to that?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
I think he didn't really understand why there was so much
press coverage. I think he felt that it should be enough
that the two girls were missing, that should be enough,
why there has to be so much press coverage and so many
journalists, and I think he felt quite hounded by journalists
in general.
MR LATHAM
had you taken a recording device in with you, a mini disk
recorder?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes, I had a mini-disk recorder which had microphone attached
to it.
MR LATHAM
I would like you to have, it is in the grey file, please,
the Jury have this, a transcript behind tab 1 - there
are a series of witness statements I need not trouble
you with, and then there is a transcript of a radio interview
with your initials - sorry, not your initials, someone
who transcribed this interview. do you have the page which
starts "copy of media interview, Ian Huntley, BBC
Radio 1"
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
Yes, I do.
MR LATHAM
what we are going to do is play the interview and as you
were a participant in it perhaps, as you are listening
to your own voice and that of Mr Huntley, you would just
check the transcript is right.
(tape
recorded interview, played)
MR
LATHAM
where in the house did that interview in fact take place?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
we were in the garden at the time.
MR
LATHAM
in the garden, yes, I had asked if we could do the interview
where he had last seen them, he said, "No",
so we did it in the garden.
MR LATHAM
that was the back of the house, rather than the garden
at the front of the house
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
Yes, the garden at the back of the house.
MR
LATHAM
where was Maxine Carr while that conversation was taking
place?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
she was inside the house.
MR LATHAM
having finished the interview, did you go back into the
house?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes.
MR LATHAM
and where were you at that point?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
well, myself, Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr walked towards
the door so we were in the hallway.
MR
LATHAM
just before you were leaving?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
yes.
MR LATHAM
any further conversation?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes. Ian Huntley was very keen to know when the interview
was going out and obviously on Radio 1, and at what time.
Also I think we had a conversation, again about the press
coverage, and again, I sort of had a conversation about
the amount of press that was in Soham. I think they were
both saying how, shouldn't it be enough that the two girls
have gone missing, shouldn't that be enough.
MR LATHAM
and I think you then left didn't you?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
yes.
MR LATHAM
how was he as you went through the front door?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
he was smiling, he seemed very happy, almost relieved.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much, will you wait there, please
(Cross-examined by MR COWARD)
MR COWARD
so does it appear that you were, in fact, the first person
Mr Huntley ever gave an interview to?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
I think I was the first broadcaster.
MR
COWARD
and you were a radio broadcaster?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
yes.
MR COWARD
one of the things he was concerned about is that he preferred
radio to television, because he didn't want his face on
the screen?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
yes. COWARD to be broadcast throughout the country. He
also made it clear to you, didn't he, that he and Maxine
Carr had had an endless stream of representatives of the
media trying to get interviews with him. I think you had
witnessed it yourself, haven't you, since the Monday?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
I don't know about that, but all I know is that when I
did knock on the door, she seemed very upset and she was
crying, so from that I ascertained that possibly other
members of the press had been knocking on that door and
trying to get interviews.
MR COWARD
Mr Huntley also was trying to say to you, wasn't he, if
I give you this radio interview can you stop everybody
else asking to interview me. that's what he wanted, wasn't
it?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
I suppose so, yes.
MR COWARD
were you able to give him any guarantee or promise as
to what you could do to prevent an endless series of interviews?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
well, on the BBC producer guidelines, obviously told him
I could speak to my BBC colleagues and ask them- and tell
them I had got this interview, and speak to them about
his request, but I said to him that there could be no
guarantee in terms of other agencies or other broadcasters
coming to interview him.
MR COWARD
he was asking you, wasn't he, can you tell the other people
that, now I have done this BBC interview, there aren't
any more and they shouldn't come looking because it has
been on the BBC. That was the essence of what he was trying
to ask you wasn't it?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
I suppose, but I did make it clear that I didn't have
the power to do that.
MR COWARD
from your point of view, as a representative of the BBC,
if you have been able to get the only radio interview
with him, it would have been quite a feather in your cap,
wouldn't it?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
I wasn't really looking at it in that way. we are there
as a team and my interview was used throughout the BBC,
and the interviews other people used, were used by us
as well, so I am a team player. I didn't really look at
it in those terms.
MR COWARD
at the time he said he would do the radio interview in
the garden, but not out the front of the house, was it
your idea he go to the front of the house?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
yes , I thought it would add atmosphere to the interview
if he could sort of point to where he had last seen them
and describe it in a more descriptive way as it is radio
and not television. I asked for it and he said that he
didn't want to.
MR COWARD
were there any other representatives from the media out
the front at that time?
NAZANINE MOSHIRI
I think possibly there might have been a photographer
hanging around outside.
MR COWARD
You eventually settled for the garden at the back, and
that's where the interview took place?
NAZANINE
MOSHIRI
yes.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
no questions, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much
(The witness withdrew)
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07
|
| Contact : bernard.omahoney@bernardomahoney.com |
|
|
| Flowers in Gods Garden |
|
| Paul Pearson |
|
| Rosie Palmer |
|
| Sophie Hook |
|
| Sarah Payne |
|
| Victoria Climbie |
|
| Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman |
- Documents
- Audio
|
| The Yorkshire Ripper |
- Video
|
|
