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19/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 19 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.
Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer.
MR JUSTICE MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
05 06
07
MR LATHAM
page 12 of the chronology, the 8th, as we have dealing
with witnesses listed after about 12.15, we we are now
asking MATTHEW JOHNSON about four o'clock the next day
house to house inquiries.
( MATTHEW
JOHNSON, sworn)
Examined by MR KHALIL .
MR
KHALIL
You full name, please?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
police sergeant 440, MATTHEW JOHNSON Cambridgeshire constabulary
currently stationed at (inaudible)
MR
KHALIL
you were asked to go to Soham to conduct house to house
inquiries?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
Were you there on Thursday 8th August?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
that was the first day I was at Soham, yes.
MR KHALIL
(inaudible)?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's correct,.
MR KHALIL
and (inaudible)?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, I did.
MR KHALIL
can you be handed, please, a document that relates to
the (inaudible). can you help us, please, as to the date
that you saw Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
it was the 9th.
MR KHALIL
the 9th August; that had been a Friday, yes?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
my first duty at Soham was on the 8th, I it went on to
the 9th.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I will undertake to give a revised page 12.
MR KHALIL
does your recollection help you as to what time it was
when you went round to 5 College Close?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
it wasn't timed; it was between 3 and four pm.
MR KHALIL
so Friday 9th August you go round, is it correct, to 5
College Close?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
you knew by then that that was the home of the caretaker
to the school?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
and did you knock on the door?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
I did.
MR KHALIL
was it opened?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
it was opened by Mr Huntley, yes.
MR
KHALIL
what was his manner when he opened the door?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
the door was pulled open very sharply. and he was initially
very angry but within a matter of seconds he calmed down
on seeing it was a police officer.
MR
KHALIL
did he comment?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, he thought it was the press again.
MR
KHALIL
you, I take it, were in uniform?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
did you explain to him you were there in connection with
making house-to-house inquiries?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
did.
MR KHALIL
did he let you into the home?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes, he did, yes.
MR KHALIL
did he take you into the sitting room?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
were other people there?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
there was Maxine Carr and two, a male and a female who
I later found out to be his parents.
MR
KHALIL
in fact whilst you were there (inaudible)?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
the house - how did appear in general terms?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
very clean and tidy.
MR KHALIL
over the page, my Lord. (To the witness) Did you indicate
you had forms to complete?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
sorry.
MR KHALIL
Did you tell them you had forms to complete?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's correct. I explained the house-to-house forms I
was completing with each address.
MR
KHALIL
keep your voice up, lean forward to the microphone. As
far as the broad nature of the information you required,
did that cover descriptions of the two of them, physical
descriptions?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
their whereabouts on a particular day and time?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
and that was to enable you, either to regard them as witnesses,
or eliminate them from inquiries?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
the forms you had with them?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes, I carry them.
MR KHALIL
are they proformas with a number of options you can cross
through or highlight as you go?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
Yes.
MR KHALIL
did you then begin to set about completing those forms?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I did. I spoke with Mr Huntley first.
MR
KHALIL
when speaking to Mr Huntley, was Miss Carr there as well
or not?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, she was present.
MR KHALIL
anybody else?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
no.
MR KHALIL
by that time, before you actually start completing the
forms, were you aware that Mr Huntley had already indicated
to police that he had seen the girls
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
no. I was completely unaware that was the case.
MR KHALIL
did he tell you where he had come from geographically,
from up north?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he said they had moved down recently, yes.
MR
KHALIL
you started completing the forms. I think he told you
he had changed his name from Nixon to Huntley, is that
right?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, eventually.
MR KHALIL
Yes. Did you ask him if he had a motor car?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
what did he say?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he gave me the details of the vehicle and as I left the
premises I checked the details, against those that he
had given me and they were the same.
MR
KHALIL
was there a vehicle parked just outside the front door
there?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Yes, there was. It was a red Ford Fiesta, J112 YWR.
MR KHALIL
thank you. I want to ask you please about the questionnaire
that you were completing. plainly you were most concerned
with any sightings of the two girls, is that right?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
can you recall what you asked him?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
one of the questions on the rear of the form is whether
you know the girls and the last time that have you seen
them.
MR KHALIL
did you ask him that?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I did.
MR KHALIL
what did he reply?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he said that he had seen them at 6.30 that evening as
they had come to the house.
MR KHALIL
what evening was he referring to?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
I had been specifically asking about Sunday 4th August.
MR KHALIL
thank you. Was that the first time that you were aware
that he had seen the girls?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes. I hadn't seen the news or anything, I was completely
unaware.
MR KHALIL
did you ask any more about that?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
I did. I was uncertain as to whether other people, other
police officers, were aware.
MR KHALIL
what did he say?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he said that he had seen a number of DCs and he had already
had statements taken and that a further statement was
to be taken.
MR KHALIL
did you satisfy yourself that he was referring to formal
witness statements?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, I checked that with him, yes.
MR
KHALIL
did you at that stage ask him any further questions about
his sighting of those girls?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
I may have asked one or two but certainly nothing probing
from there on.
MR KHALIL
can you recall whether he gave you an indication of how
it had come back he had seen them?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
Yes, he stated that there had been a knock at the door;
when he opened, answered the door, there had been two
girls asking for Maxine. He advised them Maxine was in
the bath and the girls had left.
MR
KHALIL
did he indicate where they had gone?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
he indicated to me that they had gone over the bridge
which I now know is the bridge that leads to College Road.
MR KHALIL
whilst he was giving you that account where was Maxine
Carr, please?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
she was sat opposite.
MR KHALIL
did he make any observations about whether he had spoken
with them in any way at all?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
he indicated they asked if Maxine was in he explained
that she ... and they left.
MR KHALIL
did Miss Carr say anything?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
I believe Mr Huntley made a comment to the effect that
if only he had known who they were then that would have
helped, and Miss Carr said that if only she hadn't been
in the bath she would have actually spoken to them and
found out who they were going see and where they were
going.
MR KHALIL
what was the manner or demeanour of Mr Huntley as you
were conversing with him?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
perfectly relaxed.
MR KHALIL
and Miss Carr?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
again, perfectly relaxed.
MR KHALIL
did you further confirm that he was actually due to make
another statement, didn't you?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes, I have endorsed on the form that he had already made
one statement and was due to see detectives again to make
other statements.
MR KHALIL
as far as the form is concerned was there also a question
relating to clothing worn at the material time?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, there is, yes.
MR KHALIL
did you go through that question with Mr Huntley?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I did ask him what he was wearing and----
MR
KHALIL
Pause before you go on. about what time of day were you
asking him about his clothes?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
all the questions were specifically related to Sunday,
4th August, at approximately 18.30 hours.
MR
KHALIL
thank you. did he reply as to what he was wearing?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, there was a discussion between Mr Huntley and Miss
Carr over what he had been wearing, and it was decided
it was brown trousers and either a green sweatshirt or
a yellow shirt.
MR KHALIL
I just want to take this a little slowly if I may. can
you recall what he was saying he remembered wearing?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I don't recall now at this time.
MR
KHALIL
how was the discussion, was the discussion with you or
between the two of them?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
it was between the two of them. It was an argument between
any couple.
MR KHALIL
how was it resolved to who knew best?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
Maxine replied "I should know, I do your bloody washing."
MR KHALIL
thank you. you have told us what you were concerned with
at about 6.30 p.m., yes?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's the case, yes.
MR KHALIL
was that a time that was agreed by everybody or not?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
no, Mr Huntley seems to think it was slightly earlier
at 18.15.
MR KHALIL
so 6.15?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
6.15, yes.
MR KHALIL
What was the input of Miss Carr if anything?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
again, she thought it was 5 or 10 minutes earlier, because
she had been in the bath.
MR KHALIL
did you finish completing the questionnaire in as far
as it related to Mr Huntley?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
at the conclusion of that, did you allow him to consider
the information you put on it?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes, what I did actually was hand the form to him and,
with a pen, pointed through the sections and highlighting
each individual area.
MR KHALIL
did he sign?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he took it from me and studied the form and signed it,
yes.
MR KHALIL
Miss Carr had been present throughout that process, had
she?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
Did you complete a separate questionnaire in relation
to her?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Yes, a proforma was complete.
MR KHALIL
did you do deal with her simultaneously or then move on
to Miss Carr's?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I then moved on to Miss Carr's. I took the address details
obviously from (inaudible).
MR KHALIL
again, the same sort of things, physical appearance, her
clothing and that sort of thing?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
that's correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
so far as her physical description, was there any dispute
as to that?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
one of the questions is "Do you have any marks, scars
or tattoos?" and Maxine indicated that she had a
scar in front of her left ear and Mr Huntley said that
"No you don't have a scar", and I could clearly
see she has a very fine scar just in front of her ear,
here, so there was discussion over her scar.
MR KHALIL
again, the manner and demeanour of the two of them during
the discussion, how did they appear?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
again, both very relaxed and bantered really, in respect
of the discussion on the scar.
MR KHALIL
hair colour?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
she was joking because she said don't put my hair colour
down as ginger, because that's one of the options and
I had (inaudible).
MR KHALIL
you had had an account, as it were, from Mr Huntley about
his movements,?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
did you go through same process and ask her about her
movements?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
Tell us how that went, please?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
again, I asked her if she knew where she was at precisely
18.30 hours and she said "Well yes, I was in the
bath." I said "I suppose you were in the bath
or something."
MR KHALIL
you are dropping your voice again?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
sorry I indicated that I was aware, I was already aware,
that she was in the bath.
MR KHALIL
did she agree or dispute that?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
no. She agreed that she was in the bath.
MR
KHALIL
right. apart from being in the bath at that moment, did
she give you information about earlier in the day?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, said she had been indoors all day and indoors that
evening.
MR KHALIL
Did you ask her about that or did she simply volunteer
that information?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
no, I don't recall, I know she said she had been in all
day.
MR KHALIL
what about asking either of them for confirmation of any
of the information you were receiving; was that discussed?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I did ask Maxine if Ian could confirm that she had been
in all day.
MR KHALIL
what did she reply?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
she said, "Yes".
MR KHALIL
did you ask her about her clothing?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
I did. I asked if she could remember what she was wearing
at the time.
MR KHALIL
what was her attitude and her reply, please?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
she laughed and made a joke; in fact, she was wearing
nothing because she had been in the bath and then she
responded that she was wearing the same clothes now that
she had been wearing on the day in question, which was
a T-shirt with a number 9 on the back.
MR
KHALIL
she had been wearing the same as she was when sitting
in front of you?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes. Although she stated she had washed it in the meantime.
MR KHALIL
did you note these details down on the form?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, blue jeans, blue top with a number 9 on the back.
MR KHALIL
did you ask about the two girls?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
did she tell you whether she knew them or not?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Yes, she stated she had been a classroom assistant in
the girls' class.
MR KHALIL
did she say when she had last see them?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
on the last day of term.
MR KHALIL
as you had with Mr Huntley, did you show her the form
that now related to her?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Again, yes, I pointed through the sections with a pen,
explaining what each section was and she signed it.
MR KHALIL
that having been done was there further conversation?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I believe it was at that point that Mr Huntley looked
at one of the tabloid newspapers which had a a full page
picture of a photograph of Soham.
MR
KHALIL
pause there where was the newspaper?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
it was in the room.
MR KHALIL
So he had hold of that, did he?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
with a photograph of Soham. Anything in particular about
the photograph?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
the photograph had a series of, I believe, red roads on
it which indicated the route the girls were supposed to
have taken.
MR KHALIL
were you familiar with Soham before you began this house-to-house
inquiry?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
not at all.
MR KHALIL
what did he tell you about the photograph of the route
that he was now showing you?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
He was quite insistent. He said "You have got your
route wrong, they didn't go that way."
MR KHALIL
Apart from the newspaper, did he indicate whether he had
seen anything else?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Sorry?
MR KHALIL
Did he indicate whether he had seen the route shown on
anything else or?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
No, he said that he had seen it on the TV. He had seen
them at the sports centre and they had come directly from
the house to the sports centre.
MR KHALIL
Take it slowly, they had come from?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
The sports centre.
MR KHALIL
The sports centre to where?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
To his house.
MR KHALIL
To his house? And from his house, where did he say they
had gone?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Again, he then indicated that they had gone "over
the bridge" was the expression, which then leads
into College Road.
MR KHALIL
Did he actually demonstrate the route?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
Yes, because I didn't know the area and the geography.
He indicated the lane they had come from, which I believe
was Gidney Lane.
MR KHALIL
how was he indicating, were you still sitting in the living
room?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
No. We went into the front door.
MR
KHALIL
You go to the front door, is the door open?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
We opened the front door.
MR KHALIL
Did you go out?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I stood on the doorstep.
MR KHALIL
Who are you with?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Just myself and him.
MR KHALIL
What was he doing, please?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
He pointed to the lane, which was directly in front of
his house, across the other side of the car park.
MR KHALIL
You found that later to be Gidney Lane?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
Gidney Lane.
MR KHALIL
Yes?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
He said they had come from the lane, gone to the college
to go to a vending machine, because there had been some
CCTV on the television.
MR KHALIL
Was he telling you there had been CCTV he had seen on
television, or was this something separately known to
you?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I had seen very little of the news, he was telling me
it had been on the television.
MR KHALIL
Right, go on?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
And that they had then come over to the house.
MR KHALIL
Did he give you a time?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
He said it had been, noted the time as before you began
this house to house inquiry?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
not at all.
MR KHALIL
what did he tell you about the photograph of the route
that (inaudible) now showing you 18.13 on the video and
they had come over, it had been quarter past or 18.15,
therefore they didn't have time to go anywhere else.
MR KHALIL
were you simply concluding for yourself they didn't have
time to go anywhere else, or was that something said by
him?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
no. That was said by him. They didn't have time to go
anywhere else, they came directly from there to the house.
MR KHALIL
Have you separately to this conversation with Mr Huntley,
known any of these background facts of not?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I knew of the existence of the CCTV video.
MR
KHALIL
no more than that?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
no.
MR KHALIL
Did he then indicate, having come from his house, where
they went from there?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he was going to show me the bridge but having come into
the college area via the bridge, I then knew which bridge
he was referring to.
MR KHALIL
you were part of the police investigation?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
Yes.
MR KHALIL
you asked him a number of questions; did he ask you anything?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he asked me how the investigation was going and and if
we had any leads.
MR KHALIL
what did you say to him?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I advised him I had not seen the news and if he had seen
the news he was probably better briefed than I was, because
- deliberately - house-to-=house teams are kept in the
dark so we don't let things slip in interview.
MR KHALIL
did he speak about the press at all?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
he stated the press had been harassing him, that initially
he had not wanted his photograph taken or to be filmed;
however, he had conceded, thinking that would make them
go away. However, having done that, they were still pressuring
him and he felt he was a prisoner in his own house, or
words to that effect.
MR KHALIL
what was your attitude to that?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
I was quite sympathetic to his cause and I advised him
if it was getting too much to phone the police and see
what we could do with regards to offering advice to the
press, et cetera.
MR KHALIL
as far as you were concerned had you by now finished your
inquiries at that house?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR KHALIL
did you decide to leave?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I did, yes, yes.
MR KHALIL
whilst you had been on the doorstep, was Miss Carr with
you or did she remain in the house?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
she remained in the house.
MR KHALIL
prior to leaving did you see her again?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
Yes, I had to (inaudible). She came up to me and wanted
to show me a card the girls had made.
MR
KHALIL
did you see from where she got the card?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
it was the on the bottom shelf of a display cabinet, a
table beneath the front window.
MR KHALIL
what did she say about that card?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
she said that the girls had made it for her.
MR KHALIL
apart from Holly and Jessica, had she (inaudible) any
other girls or just those two?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
she did show me the card. She was becoming upset and,
I think if I have looked at it I would have been upset,
so I didn't look it, didn't pay too much attention to
it.
MR KHALIL
Did she speak of the press?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
no, not that I recall. .
MR KHALIL
right. from start to finish, from arrival at the beginning
of the house-to-house inquiry to leaving, roughly how
long were you there, please?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
between 20 minutes and half an hour - no longer than half
an hour, certainly.
MR KHALIL
apart from the initial confrontation between you and Mr
Huntley, when he thought it was the press, the upset of
Miss Carr at the very end, their manner and demeanour
throughout your dealings with them?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
very relaxed and very cooperative.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
very?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
cooperative.
MR KHALIL
thank you very much, just wait there.
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD.
MR COWARD
Sergeant Johnson, I have a copy of the two forms eventually
signed by Mr Huntley and Miss Carr. forms filled in by
you signed by them. can you turn to what in the photostat
copy I have as the first actual page of it, the page that
has its name on? under, "Other name", it says
"Former ..." changed to "Huntley".
It was "Nixon" in May 2002. so you obviously
did not know that yourself; he told you that he had changed
his name?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I asked him. I had a set phrase for asking people about
their names. I ask them if they have ever been known as
any other name, if they have another name, a stage name
or a name the tax man doesn't know about, to which he
replied, "No", and it was the only as I started
to fill that descriptive section below he indicated he
had in fact changed his name; he used to be known by another
name.
MR COWARD
in that description section it says, "Recent injury
give details", doesn't it?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
it does, yes.
MR COWARD
You have recorded "Birth mark on left ear, not visible".
MATTHEW JOHNSON
Correct.
MR COWARD
When you are carrying out house-to-house inquiries, if
somebody has got a cut on their forehead and they don't
mention it to you, do you still write it down on the form?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
if it was an obvious cut on the forehead, then, yes.
MR COWARD
so it is not a job of simply reporting what the person
is saying; you use your own eyes and if there is something
there which is obvious to see you put it down, because
it might turn out to be important later?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
if it is a recent injury. I believe my statement did indicate
that had he had minor cuts to his hands. Given the nature
of his job I possibly wouldn't have recorded those, but
certainly to the face, I would say I would have recorded
that, yes.
MR COWARD
one thing we can agree upon, sergeant, is this, isn't
it that you saw no mark on the face of Mr Huntley?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
you weren't aware he had made a statement already to the
CID, but he told you he had done. turning over to the
second page, the page which has his signature on, item
3 is clothing worn at the material time and have you down
that's the time he saw the girls, obviously----?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
brown trousers, green sweatshirt, does it say, or yellow
shirt?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes, green sweatshirt or yellow shirt.
MR
COWARD
or yellow shirt?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
so one of them is saying one, the other is saying the
other?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
you put down both?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
did you see a dog at the house?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
no I didn't, didn't see a dog.
MR COWARD
are you saying there wasn't one or you simply did not
see one?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
if there was one, it could have been in the back garden
or in another room.
MR COWARD
or put in another room?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I certainly didn't hear a dog or see a dog.
MR COWARD
when he described where the girls went after they had
left him, would I be right in saying he said "They
went toward the bridge"?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
it is the bridge that connects College Close with College
Road, the river Lode, the bridge into College Road.
MR COWARD
one final matter, are you quite sure he said that the
girls knocked on the door of number 5 College Close?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I'm quite sure he said the girls came to the door, whether
it was knocked on rang the door bell.
MR
COWARD
there is perhaps a difference. if he said the girls came
to the the door, that doesn't necessarily mean they knocked
on the door, does it?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
if you are asking whether they knocked or rang the door
bell, I don't recall, but it was a definite positive act
as coming to the door bell - sorry to the door as opposed
to just walking past seeing them.
MR
COWARD
did Mr Huntley tell you that he was cleaning his dog at
time the girls turned up?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
no.
MR COWARD
did you ask him for his account of what he had seen of
the girls?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I didn't, because having established that other officers,
CID, were going to be taking statements and had already,
I didn't probe that to any depth.
MR
COWARD
no doubt it had been covered and there was no need for
you to go over the ground again?
MATTHEW
JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
I have to suggest that he never at any time said the girls
had knocked at the door, or knocked on the door, that
may be right, they may have come to the door but not knocked
on it?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
they definitely came to the door, as opposed to just walking
past, as I said - whether it was knocked or rung, but
he said he had to go to the door so he wasn't at the door,
they must have attracted his attention somehow.
MR COWARD
he had to?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
he said that he went to the door and when he opened it
the girls were there.
MR COWARD
I must suggest, officer, that your memory is letting you
down that in regard?
MATTHEW JOHNSON
I'm quite confident that that is my recollection at the
time.
MR KHALIL
I have no other questions, thank you.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much
{the witness withdrew}.
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