| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
20/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Thursday, 20 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC.
Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister.
Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer.
MR JUSTICE MOSES is the judge.
Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
MR LATHAM
I call EDWARD FRASER, please J page 1656.
EDWARD
FRASER, sworn
Examined by MR KHALIL
MR KHALIL
give us your full name, please?
EDWARD
FRASER
Edward Michael Fraser.
MR KHALIL
are you employed by British Sky Broadcasting as a news
producer?
EDWARD FRASER
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
my Lord, our chronology page 15, 1630. I want to ask you
about Tuesday, 15th August last year, please. were you
in Soham in Cambridgeshire with other members of the BSkyB
team?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, that's correct.
MR KHALIL
you had spoken with Nick Purnell, one of the producers
about trying to get interviews with Ian Huntley?
EDWARD FRASER
Yes.
MR KHALIL
did you in due course go to the address in College Close
where Ian Huntley was known to live?
EDWARD
FRASER
Yes. The house was pointed out to me and I went over there
with a colleague.
MR KHALIL
a knock on the door. And was the door answered?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, it was.
MR KHALIL
by whom, please?
EDWARD FRASER
by a lady who introduced herself as Maxine Carr.
MR KHALIL
did you wish to interview her or Ian Huntley?
EDWARD FRASER
at the time we had gone to try to speak to Mr Huntley
to get an interview with him and she introduced herself
and said that she had been a teaching assistant in the
school and had known the girls, and they had been in her
class, so at that stage we asked if she might be willing
to do an interview as well.
MR KHALIL
did she agree to that or not?
EDWARD
FRASER
she did, yes, readily.
MR KHALIL
did she speak of whether Mr Huntley would agree to being
interviewed?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, she effectively answered on his behalf and said "Yes
I'm sure he will", when we asked if he might be willing
to give us an interview.
MR KHALIL
right. did you conduct the interviews then or return later?
EDWARD FRASER
no, we returned later, both to meet with Mr Huntley and
Miss Carr.
MR KHALIL
can you recall what time you returned?
EDWARD
FRASER
yes, we returned around four o'clock, which was the time
that we had agreed . There was nobody answering the door
at that stage. We came back around 25 past 4 and Miss
Carr answered the door then.
MR KHALIL
were you allowed in?
EDWARD FRASER
no, we sort of stood at the door, basically.
MR KHALIL
right. how was her appearance, was it the same as earlier
or not?
EDWARD FRASER
no, it was a complete transformation really, she had done
her hair, she had lipstick on, make up, and changed her
clothes as well.
MR KHALIL
did she have anything with her?
EDWARD
FRASER
yes, she had in her hand the card which she said Holly
Wells and Jessica Chapman had given to her in school on
her last day.
MR KHALIL
speaking of her, was there any evidence of Mr Huntley
being around?
EDWARD FRASER
He wasn't there at that stage. we were under the impression
he was returning back from work around four o'clock and
he wasn't there, so I went over to the school to see if
I could find him after that.
MR KHALIL
did you find him?
EDWARD FRASER
I did. I found him at the entrance to the school hall.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with him?
EDWARD FRASER
yes. I said we had spoken to Maxine and she had said that
he would be willing to do an interview and I asked him
if that was the case. He said "Yes, anything to find
the girls."
MR KHALIL
did you then leave him and return to the house?
EDWARD FRASER
yes. I said would he come - we wanted to do the interview,
for television purposes, outside the house where he had
last seen the girls and I asked if that would be okay.
He said "Yes, meet me round at the house in 10 minutes",
and you know, sent us back there.
MR
KHALIL
so you return to the house, set things up, do you?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, correct.
MR KHALIL
did he join you a little while later?
EDWARD
FRASER
he did, yes, but he kind of put us in our place and said,
you know, "Wait there, I have got to do some things",
he met up with another caretaker, handed some keys to
him, had a general chat with him and kept us waiting a
few minutes.
MR KHALIL
do you conduct the interview with Mr Huntley, I think
your presenter was also with you, Jeremy Thompson?
EDWARD FRASER
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
the interview was videod or filmed, yes?
EDWARD
FRASER
yes, it was filmed.
MR KHALIL
did you then wish to conduct a sort of interview with
Miss Carr as well?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, we did a live interview with Miss Carr at five o'clock.
MR KHALIL
where was that?
EDWARD FRASER
it was outside the Ship Pub, I believe, on the High Street
in Soham.
MR KHALIL
my Lord, I have already played the coverage in relation
to those. if you wait there, please, there may be other
questions.
MR COWARD
I have no questions.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Fraser, you believed when you went to the house that
you would have a bit of a hard sell to get an an interview
with Carr?
EDWARD FRASER
correct.
MR KHALIL
did you explain to her you wanted an interview with her
because the story was losing momentum in the ratings?
EDWARD FRASER
I think we put it to her that it was in the best interests
of the missing girls and the families to try and keep
it in the public eye.
MR HUBBARD
you may think this a little odd - you may not remember
it - but something about Legionnaires disease was discussed?
EDWARD FRASER
I don't believe so.
MR HUBBARD
At that time wasn't there something going on in the media
about Legionnaires disease?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, I believe there was a story at the time, yes.
MR HUBBARD
thank you.
MR KHALIL
no questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
(The witness withdrew)
MR KHALIL
I will read the statement of James Richard Latch, page
16 of the chronology. James Richard Latch, a broadcast
journalist for BBC Look East, the lead reporter from Look
East, covering the missing girls Holly Wells and Jessica
Chapman in Soham Friday, 16th August 2002. "I was
at the hall in the Village College in Soham preparing
for a press conference that was to be held at 11.30 a.m..
about 10.15 am amongst the people who were wandering about
the hall was Ian Huntley. I knew who he was and was aware
that other TV and radio people had carried out interviews
with him.
Up to that point, I had not spoken to him so, out of pure
curiosity, I approached him and spoke to him. The conversation
lasted no more than a few minutes. I can remember that
I talked about the press and TV interviews and the number
of requests that he must have had. he explained why he
had started to do interviews. He said it was because people
became suspicious of him because he kept saying no.
He did the interviews because he had to. He spoke about
the interview that he was to do with ITN later that day,
he said he hoped it would be his last. He said the press
did not seem to understand he did not want to do interviews.
I pointed out that he had done them for 'Look East', and
he said that was okay because it was for the locals. He
then said something like 'Do you know when they are going
to stop the search?', I said I didn't know. He said 'I
have heard when the search gets to seven miles it is scaled
down' I said I was not aware of that.
He said 'Are they still searching for Milly Dowler', I
said something like 'Yes, but not to the same intensity'.
he said 'So you think it will be scaled down at some stage?'
I agreed it probably would at some stage. I did not have
any other conversation with Ian Huntley. I will read the
statement of Kelly Jane Stephens, employed as a press
officer within the department of corporate information
with Cambridge constabulary.
Your role includes being a point of contact for all press
inquiries, at the main Cambridge constabulary and to alert
press to items that may be of media interest or where
they may be able to assist, such as appeals for information
from members of the public through the media. One of the
two dedicated press officers for this inquiry, and they
operate a system called "News Live", a tape
answer phone message which is updated throughout the day
and members of the press office or the duty inspector
of the force control room, no-one else has access to that?
A message is retrieved by 'phoning a dedicated number
given to press agents and journalists.
I think it may be possible to gain the number by ringing
the police switchboard. One occasion she was in Soham
Village College, can't remember the date or time, but
spoke to Ian Huntley, believing him to be a journalist
and by mistake told him the number. However he didn't
have pen and paper, she didn't think he noted it down.
On Monday, 5th August, a press conference was held at
the offices of the East Cambridgeshire district, Ely,
Cambridge, set up by the media to publicise the disappearance
of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman.
A number of people were there but Mr Huntley was not present.
A news line was (inaudible) on that occasion. on Tuesday,
6th August 2002, the press conferences were moved to Soham
Village College where they were two press conferences
At 11.15, and 4.30 in the afternoon. Wednesday, 7th August,
again at Soham Village College, conferences at 10 a.m.
and 4 p.m. On Thursday 8th August, conferences at Soham
Village College at 10.15 and at 4.45, force headquarters
where detective Chief Inspector Beck made an appeal.
The 9th August, there was one conference at 10 in the
morning, again at the college. On Saturday, 10th August,
reconstruction of Holly and Jessica's known movements.
One o'clock there was an informal briefing in The Soham
Village College to brief the press. No conference on Sunday,
11th, Monday, 12th, there was a press conference at 2
pm. Tuesday, 13th August, a press conference at 2.30.
Wednesday, 14th August, press conference at 1 pm, 4 pm,
Detective Chief Inspector Beck stated he had left a message
on Jessica Chapman's mobile.
Thursday, 15th August an off-the-record briefing at (inaudible)
Performing Arts Centre, 7 pm community meeting at Soham
Village College where the press were not allowed access,
but Ian Huntley was present at that meeting, 16th August,
press conference at 11.30. Each press conference lasted
between 30 minutes and an hour, journalists gathered as
a group and arrangements were made with Soham Village
College principal, Mr Gilbert, indicated at ...(inaudible)...
Wednesday, 7th August At about 9.30 in the morning she
was approached by Sergeant Trudy Speels who handed her
a photograph of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, dressed
in their red Manchester United shirts. shortly ... (inaudible)
... the girls went missing ... she caused the photograph
to be scanned and it was then subsequently distributed
to all the media outlets together with the press release
later that afternoon, and it was that photograph that
had become the main image in the inquiry, the one the
jury have seen. the statement of Darren Cooper at 1623.
going back to Wednesday, 7th August. detective Sergeant
Cooper, the foot of the page, changes the date subsequently
to Wednesday, 7th August, in company with Detective Constable
Taylor.
At midday they drove to number 5 College Road in Soham.
detective Constable Taylor had explained he was going
to meet Ian Huntley so he could sign the consent-to-search
form after the previous day's search, that had been agreed
to by Ian Huntley. They stopped outside number 5; a man
was walking from the college towards the house where they
had been parked. Constable Taylor got out of the car and
approached that man. They were then out of earshot of
Constable Cooper. it was apparent it was Ian Huntley because
he signed the consent-to-search form. He then walked round
the vehicle to join detective Constable Taylor. "Mr
Huntley spoke to us saying very similar to 'There has
been a red Ford Fiesta seen in this area, seen in suspicious
circumstances in the last few weeks'. I asked Huntley
to be more specific about the date.
Trying to jog his memory I said was it during school time
or since the children have broken up for the holiday.
Huntley said, 'I can't recall, but I remember telling
my neighbour, who had children, about this vehicle.' I
asked for a description of the vehicle and he replied,
'No, I can't.' He then asked us both to wait here so he
could knock on the neighbour's door to establish the day
he had informed his neighbour. He left us for a couple
of minutes, knocked on the door of 44 College Close and
returned with a woman he introduced as Hilary Scarlett,
then spoke to me while Constable Taylor and Huntley moved
away so I was not able to hear what they were saying.
She then provided him with information. He thanked her
for her help and she returned to number 4 College Road.
detective Consable Taylor finished his conversation with
Huntley and joined me at car. Ian Huntley said to me either
'this is tragic' or 'this a tragedy', at the same time
he started to well up with water in his eyes, almost crying.
He was standing about 3 to 4 feet away at time. I said
"I know, thanks for your help. Hopefully you will
find the girls cheers." got into the car and left,
leaving him outside his home address. The whole incident
took between 5 and 10 minutes.
When he informed us about the suspicious car it came out
in a casual way, it wasn't over emphasised by the way
he told us" then we go, please, to 1626 D. the same
of Sophie "On Wednesday , 11 June 2003, ten o'clock
in the morning I was on duty in a plain Toyota Avensis
motor vehicle, near Ross Peers Sport Centre at Lodeside.
I had been asked to drive from the car park at Ross Peers
sports centre to Lode Close junction at- that's the junction
half-way up the left-hand side. between 2.04 and 10.09
completed three journeys from Ross Peers car park, close
to reception doors, to the junction of Lode Close. Journeys
were timed on my watch at (break in transcript)
I drove at what I considered to be a safe and reasonable
speed for the road conditions and did not exceed 20 miles
per hour at any stage. The route contains many speed humps
and sharp accurate right hand turns. Leaving college ground
(inaudible) used by pedestrians and motorists, didn't
have to stop at any time. I recorded the mileage as one
10th of a mile on all 3 journeys." The statement
of James Fuller at 1774. Mr Fuller is a journalist employed
by Cambridge Newspapers, covering and reporting in Ely
since 2002. known Kevin Wells several years and regards
him as a friend. Didn't know Chapman family, had never
met them prior to 5th August 2002. over the page, "Monday
5th August he was made aware Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman
had gone missing from Soham.
Soham formed part of the area of his reporting, he called
Kevin and spoke to Nicola as he was looking out for the
children. Arranged to go over to them and obtain photographs
and details of what had happened, to be published in the
following day's edition of the Cambridge People news."
over the page "To the best of his knowledge, the
first time he met Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr was on 8th
August of 2002. made aware that Ian Huntley had been one
of the last people to see the girls and decided to try
and get an interview with him. met Keith Jones, he is
a photographer, went with him to the house to try and
obtain some photographs. Went to 5 College Close sometime
between 3 and 4 p.m. that day. Knocked on the door but
no-one had answered. After about 15 minutes saw Ian Huntley
come to the front of his house to his car.
After a few moments, went back to the house and I approached,
knocked on the door again. After a short time Ian Huntley
came to the door, introduced himself and confirmed who
he was, and further he had been one of the last people
to see the girls on August 4th. Went on to ask if he would
go through the course of events with me. Initially he
said he did not want to talk to any more reporters. I
explained I was from the local press, not the national
press, and also I had (inaudible) with Kevin Wells. At
this he agreed to speak to me. I went on to point out
usually when we interview people, we also take photographs
to be used in the article. Huntley immediately became
defensive and was adamant he did not want anybody taking
his picture; he refused to let the photographer into the
house.
Entered the house and immediately saw a black German shepherd
dog, asked him if it was all right he said it was and
I was taken through the hallway into the living room.
once in the living room, I saw Maxine Carr on the sofa.
sat on the chair and then Huntley sat in another chair
directly opposite with the dog by the side of the chair.
General introductory conversation about press coverage
and the fact I told him I was a local reporter.
I remember Huntley saying "At least you are not feeding
off people's misery". Kept sort of hand notes of
my interview with him. They formed the basis of a report
in the Cambridge Evening News. During the interview, Maxine
Carr described how she knew Holly and Jessica, said she
was a teacher's assistant. Huntley said he saw two girls
he said he did not know at the time wearing Manchester
United tops. One had blonde hair."
They discussed Miss Carr and the fact that she had not
been given a permanent job at the school. "the girls
then walked off towards the library. Maxine Carr described
the last day of term. She said Holly had been upset and
brought her up chocolate and on the last day of term Holly
had made her a card. Both Huntley and Carr have a message
for the families detailed on the transcript. They discussed
the card made by Holly and Carr produced the card. Asked
if we could have a photograph of Maxine with the card
Huntley said he wouldn't allow them to.
I was able to take the card outside for Keith Jones to
take photograph of it. By the time I spoke to Maxine Carr
she was tearful and appeared upset and dabbed her eyes
with a tissue. The majority of talking was done by Maxine
Carr; with Ian Huntley only really becoming involved when
I asked him directly about when he had seen the girls
and when he refused the photograph. Throughout the interview
Huntley was impassive and showed no emotion; he made no
attempt to comfort Carr when she became upset." over
the page, "I did not ask Carr about her movements
on the 4th August, I do not remember Huntley stating a
time when he saw the schoolgirls.
The whole interview lasted approximately 15 minutes. One
thing I recall was Huntley expressing he wished he had
known the girls better, to engage them in conversation
for longer in order that this may have broken the chain
of events that led to this disappearance. Carr comforted
him and said she wished it had been her that had spoken
to them, not him - that's not included in the notes because
the conversation was taking place as we were being shown
out of the house. cannot recall much about the interior
of the house other than it appeared clean and tidy."
the statement of Catherine Ellen Fitzsimon at 1827, please.
Catherine Ellen Fitzsimon, an outlook producer for Sky
News based at Osterley, West London. She was deployed
to Soham for one day only on Thursday, 15th August. She
was in Soham around 12 hours between 8.30 am and 8.30
pm. "At some point between 2.30 and 3.30 I was with
my colleague EDWARD FRASER, another producer." 5
College Close was pointed out to them as they wished to
get an interview with Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr. "I
knocked on the door and the dog barked. A woman I believe
to be Maxine Carr answered the door. She was white, slimly
built with curly brown hair. Wondered if Ian was about
and if he would like to talk to us. She said this would
be fine.
I asked Maxine if she could remember what had happened
on the night the girls went missing. She said she was
in the bath when the girls came by the house and spoke
to Ian. She said they asked Ian how Miss Carr was as they
knew she had not got the teaching job. She explained the
first she knew about this was when Ian came inside and
told her about the two girls. He described them as one
with blonde hair and one with dark hair. I asked her if
she would do a live interview with us later and she agreed.
She mentioned the card having been made for her. She also
mentioned she got on really well with the girls. Not sure
she used the past or present tense when talking about
Holly and Jessica. Edward and I returned to 5 College
Close about 4.40; one of us walked Maxine Carr to the
Ship Pub in the centre or Soham for a live interview with
Jeremy Thompson. At 6.15 I returned alone to 5 College
Close to try and arrange an interview with Ian Huntley.
I may have by now seen a picture of him in a newspaper
but cannot be sure. I knocked on the door. A man I believe
to be Ian Huntley answered the door. Short dark hair,
and dark eyes eyes and Fred Perry style polo shirt. He
looked like he was in work clothes. I asked if he would
do an interview.
He said he was about to have his tea. I asked if he would
be free later. I knew he was going to a meeting in the
school. He said he would talk to us after that meeting.
I had a general conversation with him about the case so
I had an idea what he would say to the journalist later.
I had to prompt him to get comments on particular factors
surrounding the case. I think I must have prompted him
regarding the appeal made by senior police officers about
the mobile phone text message. He moaned about this, said
it was a stupid idea. Went on to say what if the phone
was broken or if they did not have it any more.
When he mentioned the phone and abductors, I'm fairly
sure he used plural. I can't be sure if during this conversation
Huntley referred to the girls in the past or present tense."
over the page "During my conversation with Huntley,
I noticed the only point he became animated over was the
point about the phone, the text message appeal. He didn't
volunteer any information until this point which he clearly
had a strong opinion on." Then two short statements
- David Johnman's at 1808. David Johnman's is a Local
Government Officer for **Forest Heath District Council.
One of his roles is operational management of the close
circuit television system within the Forest Heath district.
"during 2002, I was aware of all publically owned
CCTV systems within the Forest Heath District. I can say
the road known as Wangford Road runs between the A1065
and B1112 is not, and has never been, covered by a public
CCTV system." statement of Susan Mitchell at 1569,
please. Susan Mitchell is the warden of Quayside Court
in Lakenheath Suffolk. "Quayside Court is a complex
of 20 bungalows for old people, it is warden controlled.
Quayside is owned and run by Forest Heath District Council,
who are based in Mildenhall. Lilly Gollings resides as
22 Quayside Court and has done since 29th June 1998, the
statement is dated 11 November of 2002. She has lived
there continuously to date, not moving out during this
time period. Lilly moved to Quayside Court from an address
in Brecon Avenue, Lakenheath. Lilly Gollings lives by
herself and has done since she moved to Quayside Court."
Is that a convenient point?
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
yes, two o'clock. Hearing adjourned - will resume after
lunch
MR LATHAM
I recollect the witness DEBBIE TUBBY was asked to go away
and get the notes. that she has done and I understand
my learned friend would like to ask her some more questions
so I merely call her and tender her for further cross-examination
DEBBIE TUBBY, recalled.
Re-examinated by MR COWARD.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
you are still on oath.
MR LATHAM
will you wait there, please.
MR COWARD
Miss Tubby when you gave evidence yesterday, I think it
was, you told the Members of the Jury about a conversation
you said you had on Monday 5th August with Mr Huntley.
Would you have now available to you, please, your two
blue books, which cover the entire period, they obviously
cover other matters and I'm not interested in those and
I will not be asking you about those. For the moment,
please, I am interested in the first book, which covers
your start of your involvement in the Soham inquiry. could
you just check first of all please, whether the date is
correct,? you said to the Jury that on the day you first
met Mr Huntley, he gave you his mobile phone number. can
you find the page?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it was actually written on the day on (inaudible) I turned.
I wrote the actual mobile number, it was ten o'clock at
night but turn the page over when I started writing on
the Tuesday, it looked as though it was the Tuesday he
gave me the number.
MR COWARD
could you say that again slowly?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
its dated here Monday and my notes were for each day.
Ian Huntley's number is written on the Tuesday because
that page was full when I saw him in the car park that
night; I turned the page over and in the middle of the
page, because it was dark I couldn't see very well, I
just wrote his mobile number down, and on the Tuesday
I started from the top of the page. So it looks as though
the mobile number was given on the Tuesday.
MR COWARD
could you find the entry that relates to the mobile number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
does it say this "Ian...", then his mobile telephone
number, "....last seen 5.50 asked wife, teacher?"
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
what date does that page bear at the top?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
Tuesday, but the phone number----
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
just answer the questions before rushing off to the explanation.
MR COWARD
so there is written Tuesday, 6th August at the top of
the page, but your explanation is that when you spoke
to Mr Huntley you turned the page over in the dark and
it is about in the middle of the page, isn't it, Ian Huntley's
mobile number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, it is in a box as well.
MR COWARD
so you still are confident it is fifth August?
DEBBIE TUBBY
absolutely.
MR COWARD
and that's the extent of your note for - whether it is
5th or 6th does not perhaps matter - that's the extent
of your note, is it, "Ian mobile number last seen
5.50, asked wife, teacher." Would you turn to a page
headed, "Chief Superintendent Hankins", please,
written at the top of the page?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
those are notes you made at the press conference aren't
they?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
would you agree with me they are very extensive notes
of what was said?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, they are. As TV journalists, we take down all notes
at press conferences. We (inaudible) time to find a clip.
I wrote down everything in the press conference so we
could outline the clip we were going to use at one o'clock.
MR COWARD
you found no difficulty doing that when you were at the
press conference?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's right, no.
MR COWARD
equally you had no difficulty if you wanted, in doing
that when you spoke to Mr Huntley?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I didn't realise he was going to be a big part of the
case.
MR COWARD
exactly.
MR COWARD
if you turn over further there is a word on the right
hand side, the word before, in the middle of the page,
do you have it, a page with the word "bed" on?
DEBBIE TUBBY
bed.
MR COWARD
I think it says bed, B - E - D?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you have that? on that page is there Maxine Carr's
mobile phone number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
Anything else or just Maxine and then her number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no, there are more things on there as well.
MR COWARD
if you go on a couple more pages you come to a page that
is torn, the corner has been torn off it?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
on the page that immediately followed the page that has
the corner torn off it there is an entire page which has
been torn out, isn't there?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you remember how that came about?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I probably gave directions to a cameraman to go to a certain
location or give him a telephone number or the contact
of somebody or something I needed him to film. Because
two girls had gone missing, we were under very tight deadlines,
didn't have time to go to a shop to buy another piece
of paper, so I tore it out of my note book.
MR COWARD
Rather than taking it from the back of the book you took
it out of your----?
DEBBIE TUBBY
the following page, before I would continue in the notebook,
yes.
MR COWARD
is the next entry - sorry I can't give a page number -
your writing, "Ring Maxine, no video". It may
be on that page or it may be - it is after the page that
has been torn out?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
have you that? that's all it says, "Ring Maxine,
no video"?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
would you turn to a page which is headed Thursday, 8th
August ?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
is there, I think it is in very small writing, and I'm
trying to read your writing- saw minutes before CCTV tape?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's right.
MR COWARD
that's obviously a reference to Mr Huntley?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's right.
MR COWARD
of his sighting and you making a note for yourself, it
was minutes before the CCTV tape. On the opposite page
to that there is a box in the bottom left-hand corner.
would you read out what is in the box?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
it says when did you see the girls, what was said, how
did they seem, what frame of mind and how concerned.
MR COWARD
which is obviously a series of questions you were planning
to ask Mr Huntley or Miss Carr, or both?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
that's right.
MR COWARD
connected to this inquiry. so we have got the questions
down, where do we find the answers?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
didn't do an interview on that day.
MR
COWARD
what day is this?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's Thursday, 8th. He didn't do a television interview
on that day.
MR COWARD
but you told us that you did see Mr Huntley on that day?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes I did.
MR COWARD
and you have told us that he said have they found the
girls clothes?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
where is that in your book?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I write down things----.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
just answer the question, where is that, in your book,
is the question?
MR COWARD
it is not in your book, is it?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
it is not in by my book, no.
MR COWARD
are you telling the Jury it was so significant at the
time?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it was so significant. It stayed in my mind and I reported
it to the police. That's why it was so significant.
MR COWARD
if it is so significant, Miss Tubby, why on earth, if
you have your book, the Bible you carry with you all the
time?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no it is a reminder. it is a reminder of the things I
need to do, not what happened.
MR COWARD
turn to the next page, please. does it say "last
person to see the girls"?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
sorry, I don't know where you mean it says last person
to see to the girls.
MR COWARD
sorry?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it says last person to speak to the girls.
MR
COWARD
last person to speak to, is it? if you turn to Friday,
9th August, I think you have an entry there that just
says Ian, 10.30 am interview?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes, he was due to do an interview at 10.30am.
MR COWARD
unless I missed something, that's the entirety of the
notes that you made at the time as events happened isn't
it?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's the right timing what is coming up, what I need
to do - a reminder, yes.
MR LATHAM
did he or did he not say what you described about the
clothing?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, he did.
MR LATHAM
I have no other re-examination.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
thank you very much.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much indeed.
(The witness
withdrew)
MR LATHAM
my Lord, we move to an entirely different section of the
case, the Ford Fiesta. I am going to start by handing
out first what would be several (inaudible) documents.
I wonder if my Lord could give an indication, as it were,
of the status of an admission - and there will be one
between two for the Jury and of course a copy for my Lord.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
where are we going to put these?
MR
LATHAM
I was going to suggest they went at the very front of
the green file under the tabs. I shall of course read
them through to the Jury, so the Jury do not need to try
and absorb them the moment they get them.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
have you all got them now? ladies and gentlemen, can I
just attract your attention? you remember when I said
about witnesses' evidence being read when it is not in
dispute, to save time and money, but still being just
as much part of the evidence as when witnesses come into
Court? The same is true of admissions; where evidence
is not in dispute there is no need for witnesses' statements
to be read.
There is no need for witnesses to come to Court. The defence
are prepared, in certain circumstances - entirely up to
them - to admit facts. they are reduced into writing so
that you can keep them and have them there as part of
the evidence on which you will be able to act insofar
as it is significant and important in the case. yes.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I'm grateful. Members of the Jury, you will appreciate
we are now leaving the section of movements and contacts
between various people and/either Mr Huntley or Miss Carr.
We are now moving on to deal with evidence directly related
to the Ford Fiesta. I can say that the witness statements
are voluminous, but, that said, my learned friends are
prepared to assist by making these admissions, and it
will mean I hardly need to read anything of an entire
lever-arch file as a result of this document. I will be
referring to one or two witnesses and one or two statements.
The Ford Fiesta J112 YWR. the Fiesta was bought new by
Mr Paul in 1990/91 from Ben Field's Ford Garage in Leeds
in Yorkshire. The overall specifications for the Fiesta
are contained in the Fiesta specifications booklet. pausing
there. that, at our tab 2, is a specification document
that runs for three pages. members of the Jury, I am not
going to take you through the detail of that but in the
(inaudible) description of all the features of a 5-door
gear model with a 1. 1.4 litre engine.
It had factory fitted carpets in the cabin and boot, he
put rubber mats into it. He also had a Moss alarm system
fitted. He sold it to his nephew, John Dinsdale in about
August 2000. Jennifer Dinsdale kept the Fiesta and used
it until she sold it in part exchange on 10th July 2001
to the garage Coopers of Oulton, the only defect she ever
noted was a very slight oil leak. Coopers gave the car
a professional valet clean, the recorded mileage 3847.
Coopers sold the car to Mr Robert Lamberti through the
second hand auctions in West Yorkshire on 19th July 200,
the recorded mileage was 3849, so two miles more than
it had been when it was sold. 3, Mr Robert Lamberti bought
the car at the auction due to its apparently immaculate
condition for its age.
However, he soon discovered a small mechanical defect,
which he had repaired, so he decided to sell it at the
end of July early August 2001. He placed an advertisement
in the local Scunthorpe newspapers. 4, a man calling himself
Ian Nixon, together with two people Mr Lamberti took to
be his girlfriend and her father, answered the advertisement
and then bought the car.
The car was sold with the factory fitted carpets in the
cabin and boot and was immaculate inside and out. 5, Mr
lamberti saw Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr on the television
coverage that surrounded the search for Holly Wells and
Jessica Chapman in August 2002. He immediately recognised
them as being the two people to whom he had sold his Fiesta.
The vehicle registration documents, that's the B5, shows
the registered keeper as Ian Huntley, 5 College Close,
Soham, Ely and the postcode. That is in the same tab in
the bundle, it is document 4, a photocopy of the registration
book. In due course he, of course Mr Huntley, insured
the vehicle with Churchill Insurance company, who issued
a certificate of insurance. page 6 of the bundle that's
an insurance certificate you will hear that was seized
from 5 College Close. 6, on the 25th July 2001, Ian Huntley
took the Fiesta into Hartwell Ford garage Station Road,
Scunthorpe for a general inspection.
He gave the following details. I Nixon, 94 West Street,
Scunthorpe and he gave the telephone number you see there.
The tyres were showing a tread depth between 1mm and 3mm,
no work was done by the garage following the inspection.
7, on 5th August again of 2001, Ian Huntley took the Fiesta
to Kwik Fit in Scunthorpe. They fitted four Centaur 165
by 6 5 T 13 tyres to the Fiesta at a total cost of £208.91.
he gave the following details, Mr I Nixon, 94 West Street
Scunthorpe and the postcode.
The mileage was recorded as 38,700 miles. Just looking
back to the first page is a matter of a few hundred miles
from the mileage on the first page. Invoice was generated
for this transaction. page 5, the previous page to the
certificate of motor insurance there is the bill for the
tyres, four tyres. number 8, new Centaur tyres have a
minimum tread depth of 7mm. 9, on 10th July 2002 Ian Huntley
took the Fiesta to Ford.
He gave the following details Ian Huntley, 5 College Close,
Soham and the postcode. the job card for the Fiesta shows
it was booked in for a 35,000 mile service and MOT and
some other work. Go on to page 7 in the bundle, you see
there the job card. It gives the name and address in the
top left-hand corner, the type of motor car with the registration
number, and then a description of what was to be carried
out, which includes the service and the MOT test. the
repair control record shows that all the work required
was carried out." over the page is the repair control
card which lists the MOT test carrying out a 30,000 mile
service and replacing two broken parts.
The cash sales invoice shows a more detailed breakdown
of the work that was carried out and paid for. That's
page 9. The till report was also produced, the next page,
but it is a bill for £288 odd and of course lists
the materials used and the labour and so on. Over the
page, 10, Paul Squire worked on the car and recorded details,
which included observing the Fiesta was fitted with four
Centaur tyres, one 65 by 6513 T, front tyres 5mm tread
depth, rear tyres 6mm tread depth. Under normal conditions,
these would be expected to be legal for at least another
10,000 miles.
The spare wheel was recorded as a Pirelli with 4mm tread
depth. He prepared the paperwork for the visual health
check but erroneously recorded the date as 9th July instead
of the 10th July. If you go over the page to page 11,
you see the visual health check, Members of the Jury,
from which that information that I have just read out
has been drawn. in particular, after detailing the particulars
of the car at the top and Mr Huntley's name, you note
the date top left is a day out, it should in fact have
been the 10th he has put the 9th, the mechanic.
The very first section is the wheels and tyres section
and you see the description of the tyre size, make, and
the tread death from the outer side of the tyre through
the middle of the tyre to the inner surface of the tyre
. Page 11, Hugh Carter carried out the MOT and completed
the appropriate paperwork. He is able to produce the MOT
inspection checklist, the MOT test certificate and the
Vehicle Inspectorate test register.
He recorded the mileage as 48, 807. The subsequent pages
deal with the MOT, including the certificate, which is
at page 13 and that of course has within it the recorded
mileage as it must do on an mot test certificate the right
hand side, it is the 4th box down on the right hand side,
the mileage. 12, on Monday, 5th August 2002, Ian Huntley
took the Fiesta to Ely Tyre Service, also known as Hi
Q, Unit 8, Angel Drove, Ely. They sold and fitted four
Sava Effecta 165 by 65 R 13 tyres on to the Fiesta at
a total cost of £139.26.
Only these four Sava Effecta tyres were fitted by this
garage between 4th and 17th August 2002. J B McKenzie
created the sales invoice which is timed 15.36 hours.
that's page 16. So that document which has on it, the
top right hand corner, the time on a 24 hour clock and
the four tyres and the cost. The registration number recorded
on the sales invoice, at the request of Ian Huntley, was
not the registration number of the car.
It was recorded as L 788 TXR, and you see again on the
invoice in the centre of the page underneath the details
of the tyres. This registration number has never been
issued to a car by the DVLC. One of the mechanics, Wayne
Norman, knows the tyres being replaced were in a surprisingly
good condition, still having between 4 and 6mm tread depth,
and he offered them to Mr John Fish, another mechanic
in the garage.
Mr Fish remembers being offered the tyres in the week
5th August but he refused them as the profile was not
suitable for his car. On Friday, 16th August, 2002, the
Fiesta was seized from outside 5 College Close and towed
to a garage from where it was taken for detailed forensic
examination. The results and observations of the examiners
involved in the examination of the Fiesta are accurately
recorded on the Cambridgeshire Constabulary vehicle examination
form and on the associated vehicle audit and inspection
documents. the page for that is, firstly page, 17.
I am not going to trouble you with the details at this
stage but the form starts at page 17 and, over the page,
you see it is a two-sided photocopy, runs on for several
pages, the recorded mileage was 49, 820. At page 19 of
the bundle, which is part of that form in the top left-hand
section you will see the mileage written down there, 49,820.
In the boot of the car is a pair of scissors, exhibit
DP 8, a red petrol can, RCB 1, and a piece of household
carpet, SLB 88.
These were seized. pausing there, my Lord we'll be hearing
from forensic scientists about those exhibits. The factory-fitted
boot carpet was not present. On Friday, 16th, that is
the day the car was seized, Huntley was found to be in
possession of six keys on a fob and these were seized
from him, GMB 1. Two of these are embossed with the word
"Ford" and found to fit the Fiesta.
My Lord I would just like to read a very short part of
the statement of Mr Lamberti, who is named in the admissions
A, the individual who sold the car to Mr Huntley. My Lord
will find that in my Lord's bundle, a new bundle 4017,
and it is page 3 of the statement which is 4019. so this
is a very short passage from the statement of Robert Mark
Lamberti, Members of the Jury. he says this about the
car "the carpet in the car was a dark grey carpet.
it was fitted as it would be fitted in the factory.
It was not loose and it showed no sign of having been
tampered with. it was in excellent condition with no marks
or damage. The boot was also very clean and tidy. The
floor of the boot was carpeted. The carpet fitted perfectly
and again appeared factory fitted and undamaged. I think
it was designed to be lifted up. I have a recollection
of red metal under the carpet. I cannot remember if the
spare wheel was under the car or in the boot. the fabric
of the carpet was dark grey in the boot. It was very course
and about quarter of an inch deep. I have a recollection
of a different coloured thread appearing all over it.
I think it was a lighter colour, it looked a bit like
dog hair all over the carpet. The boot carpet fitted perfectly
and was in an immaculate condition." If my learned
friend could read one additional bit from Mr Lamberti
page 4018. Mr Lamberti has spoken of the defendant buying
the car from him, ending at the bottom "He then drove
the car away.....", down to "...involvement."
on the next page. "He then drove the car away, Mr
Huntley. Within five days he had left two or three messages
on my mobile phone.
He told me he was having trouble with the car. He said
there were a number of problems with the car. I cannot
remember what they were. He said the car was at the Ford
garage, Hartwell Motors, Station Road, Scunthorpe. He
said they were going to charge him £500. I felt
bad as he had paid the full price. I offered to get the
work done by Pips garage. He agreed and I drove to his
flat. he lived in a ground floor flat next door to Eclipse
Hair Salon, West Street, Scunthorpe.
The entrance was at the back, his girlfriend was sunbathing.
I saw that they had a big, black German shepherd type
dog. Ian Nixon came out and I took him to Hartwell Motors.
The Fiesta was still able to drive and we took it to Pip
Freers Garage. He said he could do the work for about
£270. Nixon took the offer up and that was the end
of my involvement. I will read the statement, if I may,
of Jamie William McKenzie, page 4030. "together with
my partner, Robert Brown, we operate a business known
as Ely Tyre Services.
The business is situated at Unit 8, Angel Drove, Ely,
Cambridgeshire. We have been in business together for
almost ten years. As the name suggests, our main business
is tyre fitting; we also do a full range of other garage
services including servicing, MOT and mechanical repairs,
welding, brakes, batteries and exhaust fitting.
We supply a full range of different brands of tyres. however,
90% of our budget range of tyres are supplied by Goodyear.
On checking our sales invoice" - and he then refers
to the invoice we have looked at, page 16 of the bundle
- for the four tyres, he says, "This was for the
sale of 41 65, six 5 TR 13 budget tyres. The total cost
of the sale was £139.26. This was a cash sale. What
is unusual about this invoice is that I have recorded
a vehicle registration number, that number being L 788
TXR. when a customer visits our business, they will enquire
as whether or not we have tyres in stock.
If we have, they normally ask for a price and once this
is agreed, the work is carried out. when the work is completed
the customer pays and they are then given the top copy
of the sales invoice. This side of the business is always
done by either Robert or myself. on Monday, 5th August,
2002, Robert was not at work and I can therefore say that
the sales invoice 58392 was created by me. As I have said,
the top copy of the sales invoice, which is white, is
given to the customer.
The bottom copy J, which is green, is retained by us for
our records. When creating these invoices, the customer
would have no reason to touch or handle the bottom green
copy." I now produce in evidence a copy of the sales
invoice. That is the one of course you have got in the
photocopy form in the bundle. "with regard the above
mentioned invoice I can say, although it shows the sale
as being budget tyres, these tyres would have been Sava
Effecta, the tyres supplied to us by Goodyear.
With regard to the sales invoice, I can say that it is
unusual for me to put a registered number on the invoice.
however, when I do put one on, it is not always the registered
number of the vehicle having the tyres fitted to it. It
may be that the customer wants a different number put
on to the invoice in order that he can claim VAT or expenses
against a company car. I cannot remember anything about
this sale, the customer, the vehicle or the reason I put
the registered number on the invoice."
My Lord 4036, Wayne Paul Norton a tyre fitter. "I'm
employed by Ely Tyre Services, Angel Drove, Ely as a tyre
fitter. I have held this position for the last two and
a half years that name suggests I'm responsible for removing
old and faulty exhausts and replacing old worn out tyres
to vehicles brought in by customers. I do not formally
serve customers, that job is done by either Jimmy McKenzie
or Robert Brown who are the owners they will then tell
me what needs doing to a customer's vehicle.
I would estimate that I could be working on anything up
to 100 vehicles a week. about five weeks ago---",
the statement is 1st October in fact last year - it might
be longer, "---I remember changing four tyres on
a red Ford Fiesta. the reason I remember this vehicle
is because of the condition of the tyres already on the
vehicle. I cannot remember what day of the week it was,
but I do remember I had just finished removing and replacing
an exhaust system on a grey Volvo, I think a 240 R 340
model, I remember this vehicle because of its condition
it was a right rusty old heap.
I didn't think it worth fitting a new exhaust system to
it. I also remembered because Volvos are a right pain
to work on. If my memory is correct, I started work on
the Volvo after my lunch hour so it would have been about
2 p.m., it takes me about 45 minutes to an hour to remove
and replace one of these systems, so I would have finished
around 3 p.m. I don't remember why, but I then took over
from CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT ----", my Lord I shall be
calling Mr Piggott as a witness, "----who is one
of our other tyre fitters. Chris was about to start work
on a red Fiesta.
That was to have four new tyres fitted. the vehicle was
parked on the right hand side of the tyre bay as you enter
the garage. The wheel balancing machine was to the left
of the vehicle. The vehicle was parked facing into the
garage I did not see the customer who drove the vehicle
into the garage. I remember that Christopher placed 4
new budget tyres by the vehicle. I recall these tyres
were budget tyres, they would have been Sava tyres, as
these are the budget tyres we normally use. as I have
already said, I remember this vehicles because the tyres
already on the vehicle had 4mm of tread on the front wheels
and about 6m on the rear.
I did not measure the tread depths but did it visibly.
I can tell this by sight because I'm working with tyres
all the time. new tyres have between 6 and 7mm tread,
depending on the make and the model. because of this,
the front tyres were less than half worn and the rears
were almost brand new. I think the rear tyres were some
type of budget tyre. it is very unusual for people to
change tyres in this condition. It would normally be people
with expensive cars and lots of money.
People do like to have matching pairs or sets but do not
change them in the condition of the ones of this Fiesta
were. This vehicle was a red Ford Fiesta mark 3. It was
like an L X model." at the end of the statement,
"Because of the condition of the rear tyres, I offered
them to Steven Fish, who is also a tyre fitter at Ely
Tyre Services. I knew Steve wanted tyres for a trailer.
I knew they were the right size so I asked him if he wanted
them.
I think they were the wrong profile. Steve wanted a 70
or 80 profile. I think these tyres were a lower profile.
All old tyres are placed in a wooden barrow in the garage.
At the end of the day they are placed in a steel container
outside to await collection for destruction."
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that last sentence is of significance , is it?
MR LATHAM
I need not trouble you with that detail. Steven Fish,
who has just been mentioned in that statement I have read
out, another employee at Ely Tyre Services, over the page,
my Lord, "During the weekend of Saturday and Sunday
3rd and 4th August 2002, I attended a Steam Rally at Haverhill.
I recall this event because I was looking to purchase
a tractor that I wanted to restore. I did in fact find
a tractor I wanted and made arrangements to pick it up
the following week.
As a result of finding this tractor, I needed to fit a
set of tyres to a trailer in order that I could collect
the vehicle. the size of tyres I wanted were 165/13s.
I wanted the profile to be 80 or TR. On Monday 5th August
I mentioned to one of my workmates, Wayne Norman, I wanted
these tyres and asked him to look out for a set of tyres
that were in good condition, hoping he might find some
from tyres he was replacing off customers' vehicles.
I cannot remember if it was on this same day or later
that week but Wayne offered me two tyres. I recall he
had replaced four tyres on a vehicle, two of these tyres
were like new, and two had between 4 and 5mm of tread
on them. Unfortunately for me, these tyres were 165s with
a profile of either 65 or 70. Because the profile was
so low I had to refuse." in the light of the admission
that Mr Huntley's vehicle was taken to the garage I need
not go further with the description. I call CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT please. 4033, my Lord.
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT , sworn
Examined by MR LATHAM
.
MR LATHAM
Mr Piggott, would you tell us your full name, please?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT.
MR LATHAM
I think last year you were employed by Ely Tyre Services
as a tyre and exhaust fitter, is that correct?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
are you still working there?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
in August last year you had worked there about 14 months,
haven't you?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
who trained you to fit the tyres?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
Wayne Norman.
MR LATHAM
I think although you also work on exhaust systems, most
of the time you in fact fit tyres, is that correct?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
having been trained by Wayne, do you have a fairly set
procedure for working on cars when you are changing tyres?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
no need to lean forward to the microphone. thank you very
much.
MR LATHAM
can I deal with the situation where, rather than just
replacing one tyre, you have been asked to replace all
four on a motor car. How would you go about that, what
would you do first of all if you are replacing all the
tyres on a car?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
I would jack the car up to start off with.
MR
LATHAM
would that be just one corner of it or the entire car?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
the entire car.
MR LATHAM
I think you were asked to make a statement at the very
beginning of October of last year weren't you?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
about a particular transaction, how many sets of jacks,
trolley jacks, did you have on the floor to work with
at Ely Tyre Services?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
four at this time.
MR LATHAM
had there been a shortage of jacks while one or more was
being repaired?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
When you were asked to make the statement did you have
all the jacks available on the tyre floor.
MR
COWARD
My lord, can I assist, it may be very interesting this,
but my client accepts that he - it is in the admission,
that he took the car, and the gentleman put four new tyres
on.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
anyway, I have learned my lesson every time I ask MR LATHAM
he has some reason. I'm keeping quiet.
MR
LATHAM
I want to link to general dates my Lord will see.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, quite.
MR LATHAM
I appreciate it may not be wholly fascinating as to how
many jacks there were. let's see if I can take it.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
it is gripping. yes.
MR LATHAM
Mr Piggott, I think you were asked to cast your mind back
to a particular transaction during the time, the period
when you were somewhat short of car jacks on the shop
floor, weren't you?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
do you remember speaking to a particular customer who
you were replacing tyres for or about to start replacing
tres for, about something he was asking you to do?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
what was he asking you to do?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
change the number plate on the receipt.
MR
LATHAM
has that ever happened to you before - that you have been
asked to do that?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
no.
MR LATHAM
when he asked you if you would do that would you in fact,
be the person who made out the receipt in any event?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
no.
MR LATHAM
so how would the customer end up getting a receipt?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
to see the boss in the office, Jamie McKenzie.
MR LATHAM
did you in fact go and speak to Mr McKenzie when you had
this request from the customer?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
do you remember whether the customer, apart from asking
you to do this, at the same time said anything else?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
what did he say?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
he offered me £10.
MR LATHAM
did you get the £10?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
no.
MR LATHAM
did you go and see Mr McKenzie?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
do you know what happened as a result or did you drop
out of the picture at that point?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
I went back to finish the job.
MR LATHAM
do you remember whether it was a morning or afternoon
this happened?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
it was an afternoon.
MR LATHAM
I think some considerable time later in October you were
asked to go to the forensic science laboratory at Huntingdon
to see a Ford Fiesta motor car, weren't you?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
A red Fiesta. you had a look at a car - my Lord this of
course is J112 YWR. were you able to say whether in fact
you have ever worked on that car before or can't you remember?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
no. LATHAM I think you did look at one part of it, however,
didn't you?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
I did.
MR LATHAM
what did you look at?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
underneath where I jacked it up.
MR
LATHAM
where you would jack it up?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
can you say anything about how many points would there
have been where you put a jack if you were jacking it
up to put four tyres on?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
Three points, maybe four points.
MR
LATHAM
did you have a look at the points where you would have
jacked it up if you had been doing the job on that particular
car?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you notice anything about the car you were looking
at at Huntingdon?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
Yes.
MR LATHAM
Tell us about that?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
it was marked under the bottom where the jack had been
sitting on the car.
MR LATHAM
thank you, will you wait there, please.
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
can I get one thing clear from your evidence. there are
two separate things one is the actual number plate which
there is on a car, the one at the front and one at the
back; and there is a number that would go on an invoice
if you bought some tyres. you and this man, when you were
talking, weren't talking about putting new number plates
on the car, were you?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
no.
MR COWARD
thank you. it was just that on the document, the gentleman
wanted a different registration number putting on?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR COWARD
and you, following the proper procedure went to see Mr
McKenzie, for the customer to clear whether that was all
right or not?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes.
MR COWARD
Mr McKenzie did not have any objection to doing that,
did he?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
I don't think so.
MR COWARD
so far as the paperwork was concerned, did you fill in
any of the details or did Mr McKenzie do all that?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
Mr McKenzie done it all.
MR COWARD
you actually fitted the tyres, did you?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
I'm not sure if I did or not.
MR COWARD
can I suggest one thing, that although the gentleman asked
you to put a different registration number on he did not
offer you any money?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
yes, he offered me money.
MR COWARD
one further matter do you know who decided what the new
number would be that would go on the invoice?
CHRISTOPHER PIGGOTT
no.
MR COWARD
you can't help about that at all?
CHRISTOPHER
PIGGOTT
no.
MR COWARD
thank you very much. .
MR LATHAM
no re-examination.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much indeed
{the witness
withdrew}.
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