| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
21/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 21 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
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MR JUSTICE MOSES
ladies and gentlemen, sorry to keep you waiting but we
were just discussing the progress of the trial. What I
can assure you about, is that we are making good progress.
We have heard a lot of evidence, the bits you will need
to draw on and concentrate on will fall into place (inaudible).
We are making good progress and in order to make even
better progress, and give people time to work out things,
and avoid giving unnecessary evidence, we won't be sitting
tomorrow so you are free tomorrow. It is not dragging
the thing out. what I wanted to say to you, it is quite
the contrary in fact, it is time (inaudible), so it will
be shorter in fact, as I say we are well ahead of schedule.
Thank you very much.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I am told to provide a corrected chronology,
to change the house to house inquiries from the Thursday
to the Friday, you are given fresh chronology documents
now. if you have any notes on your existing page 12, by
all means retain them and transfer them across at some
point. if it is a blank page, may I suggest you hand the
old version to the usher as you take the new version.
so page 12. my Lord, some considerable time ago, there
was an error in the telephone attribution bundle. I will
provide a corrected version. My Lord, I understand some
of the Jurors may have notes on the (inaudible).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, I certainly have.
MR LATHAM
they can have both their folders, as long as they know,
as it were, which is the up-to-date version.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
what has changed?
MR LATHAM
in the telephone attribution schedule, it is the Kevin
Huntley telephone number.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
yes, thank you.
MR KHALIL
I call detective Chief Inspector Hebb, please. my Lord
page 1537. if the jury have their chronology it is page
15.
(August Andrew Hebb, sworn)
Examined by MR KHALIL.
MR KHALIL
Your full name, please?
ANDY HEBB
I'm Andrew Graham Hebb, detective chief inspector with
Cambridgeshire constabulary, stationed at (inaudible)
Huntingdon, my Lord.
MR KHALIL
you are one of the senior investigating officers concerned
in this inquiry?
ANDY HEBB
that's correct, currently senior investigating officer.
MR KHALIL
have been in court throughout?
ANDY
HEBB
I have.
MR KHALIL
I want to ask you, please, about the meeting at the community
college, which we know took place on Thursday, 15th August,
last year?
ANDY HEBB
Yes, sir.
MR KHALIL
and that was arranged to start about 7 p.m. in the college,
with a view to the police updating the public about the
events in the investigation and to answer any questions?
ANDY HEBB
that's correct, sir, a consultation, meeting, yes.
MR KHALIL
Inspector Causer was also present and you subsequently
became aware of the presence of Ian Huntley as well?
ANDY HEBB
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
he was assisting with setting up the chairs and tables
and the like?
ANDY HEBB
he was indeed.
MR KHALIL
towards the end of that meeting, did you notice Ian Huntley
standing in the company of Inspector Causer?
ANDY HEBB
Yes, Inspector Causer was standing alongside Mr Huntley
and he was speaking to Mr Huntley.
MR
KHALIL
were you aware by that time that there had been a broadcast
relating to a message being left on Jessica's mobile telephone?
ANDY HEBB
yes, I was.
MR KHALIL
right. I think a deadline had been set for someone to
contact the police in that event?
ANDY
HEBB
that is correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
did you also notice a woman close to Ian Huntley?
ANDY HEBB
I did.
MR KHALIL
where was she?
ANDY HEBB
she was standing directly behind Mr Huntley.
MR KHALIL
was she close enough to hear the conversation or not?
ANDY HEBB
I believe she was, sir, yes.
MR KHALIL
did you subsequently discover who that person was?
ANDY HEBB
yes, I later learned her to be Maxine Carr, Mr Huntley's
partner.
MR KHALIL
Was Ian Huntley introduced to you?
ANDY
HEBB
he was, he was introduced to me by Inspector Causer.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with him?
ANDY HEBB
Inspector Causer told me Ian Huntley had some questions
about the message that had been left, by the police on
Jessica's mobile phone.
MR KHALIL
did that prove to be the case; he wished to ask you about----?
ANDY HEBB
that's correct , I had a conversation with Mr Huntley
about it.
MR KHALIL
can you now recall it, would you like to refer to some
notes?
ANDY HEBB
I can recall it sir, but I do have it recorded in my note
books as well.
MR KHALIL
I am told you can refer to the notes you have, if you
wish?
ANDY HEBB
thank you.
MR KHALIL
can you recall what was asked of you please?
ANDY HEBB
Yes, Mr Huntley asked me how an abductor would be able
to get a message from the police if the phone's battery
was dead and, after a slight pause, said, "Or if
it had been thrown away."
MR KHALIL
were you able to answer that question?
ANDY
HEBB
I was, I merely said to him that the perpetrator or perpetrators
would need to contact the public hot line that had been
set up as a result of this inquiry, or contact the police
in the normal manner.
MR KHALIL
who was the first person in this conversation to use the
plural rather than the singular?
ANDY
HEBB
the first person was myself.
MR KHALIL
did he speak to you about what he had been doing?
ANDY HEBB
he did, he went on to tell me how he had been doing everything
he could to find the girls alive and well, how he had
been searching, and how he had been assisting the police
with searching the college. He also said that he had been
engaging with the media, doing media interviews to try
and keep the story alive.
MR KHALIL
he spoke of a woman, Maxine Carr, being in close proximity,
had she remained close by that?
ANDY
HEBB
yes, she had, sir, yes.
MR KHALIL
did the conversation with Mr Huntley then end?
ANDY HEBB
it did.
MR KHALIL
and did she speak at all during that time or not?
ANDY HEBB
Not during my conversation with Mr Huntley, but as Mr
Huntley turned to go away, Maxine Carr came to me and
shook my hand and she thanked me basically.
MR KHALIL
did she the leave following behind Ian Huntley?
ANDY HEBB
she did.
MR KHALIL
if you wait there, there may be other questions.
Thank you Cross-examined by MR COWARD.
MR COWARD
the question Mr Huntley asked you, was that one you had
thought about?
ANDY HEBB
when Mr Huntley asked me the question, or the subject
in general?
MR COWARD
before anyone asked the question?
ANDY
HEBB
It is not something I had thought about, sir, no.
MR COWARD
Thinking about it now, it is quite a basic question isn't
it?
ANDY HEBB
it is sir, yes.
MR COWARD
That anyone might have asked you?
ANDY
HEBB
it is, but nobody else did, sir.
MR
COWARD
thank you.
MR HUBBARD
no questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
ANDY HEBB
thank you, my Lord
{the witness withdrew}.
MR KHALIL
I call REBECCA HOGGARTH, please, 1558.
(
REBECCA HOGGARTH, sworn)
Examined by MR KHALIL.
MR KHALIL
give us your full name, please?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
it is REBECCA HOGGARTH.
MR KHALIL
and before we go on, if the Jury have page 12 of that
chronology? Now at the last entry on the first day of
April, are you employed as a researcher for Granada Television,
based in Manchester?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes, that's correct.
MR KHALIL
during August last year, were you asked to go to Soham
with a colleague of your's, Samantha Rix?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
I was.
MR KHALIL
was that with you view to carrying out research for the
"Tonight with Trevor MacDonald" programme into
the two missing children, Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes, it is.
MR KHALIL
quarter past 9. The afternoon 8th August did the two of
you go to the home of the Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
We did, yes.
MR KHALIL
Had that visit be pre-arranged or not?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
No, it had not been pre-arranged.
MR
KHALIL
did you make your presence known there?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
Yes, we knocked on the door. Miss Carr answered the door
and she told us that Mr Huntley wasn't there and to call
back later.
MR KHALIL
right. did you tell her why you were there?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
we briefly explained who we were and again she just repeated,
we said we wanted to speak to Mr Huntley and she just
repeated to come back later on when he was in.
MR KHALIL
you are dropping your voice you need to speak up
REBECCA HOGGARTH
sorry.
MR KHALIL
she told you to come back?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
she said he should be back in about 10 minutes time. .
MR KHALIL
was there a motor vehicle there?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
as I remember I'm sure that there was a red Fiesta parked
outside the house.
MR KHALIL
did you go back later?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes, we went back at approximately about 5.40 that same
day and Ian Huntley answered the door this time, holding
back a dog I remember, and we explained again who we were
and the reason for our visit and just asked about (inaudible)
had a chat.
MR KHALIL
did you ask to go in?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes, we did, we asked if we could just go in and chat.
MR KHALIL
did you go in?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
we did, we went into the house.
MR KHALIL
where did you go?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
we were led into the house through the the front door,
we turned left and went straight into the lounge.
MR KHALIL
and having gone in there, who remained in the---- approximately
about 5.40 that same day and Ian Huntley answered the
door this time, holding back a dog I remember, and we
explained again who we were and the reason for our visit
and just asked about (inaudible) had a chat.
MR KHALIL
did you ask to go in?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes we did we asked if we could just going and chat.
MR KHALIL
did you go in?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
we did, we went into the house.
MR KHALIL
where did you go?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
we were led into the house through the front door, we
turned left and went straight into the lounge.
MR KHALIL
and having gone in there, who remained in the lounge with
you?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
there was myself my colleague Samantha Rix, Mr Ian Huntley
and Maxine Carr.
MR KHALIL
when you first went in the lounge did you notice a television
there?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes, the television set was in the corner of the room
but switched off at the time.
MR KHALIL
what did you ask Mr Huntley about, please?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
we basically just asked him about the events of the Sunday,
August 4th, when the girls had gone missing and asked
him about what had happened, when he had seen the girls.
MR KHALIL
right. you knew by then that he was in some way concerned?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
that's right, we had heard through the police he was a
possible witness.
MR KHALIL
did you take notes as you were present there?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
I took very brief one-word almost bullet points, just
of a few key points to really jog my own memory but not
elaborate notes. Our purposes for that visit really was
to just sit and chat in almost an informal way to discuss
the possibility of an interview with him.
MR
KHALIL
would you like to look at your notes or your transcribed
notes with you or are you able to recall?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
I think there was a (inaudible).
MR
KHALIL
perhaps you could have a look at that?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
it was only just a couple of key words.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
sorry, I didn't hear that. it was only?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
just a couple of key words.
MR KHALIL
I want you to check are those notes you took?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
that's correct, yes.
MR KHALIL
if you need to use them I am sure you will be allowed
to. okay, so you told him why you were there and the topics
you wished to discuss; could you tell us what he had to
say, please?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
we started from the beginning really, , I asked him what
had happened from the beginning when he saw the girls,
he stated that he was stood on his doorstep of his house.
MR KHALIL
did he say what time that was?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
as I remember, I think he said about 6.15p.m. he said
he was brushing down the dog, because it was dirty after
they had been for a walk.
MR KHALIL
after who had been for a walk?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
I believe he said he had taken the dog for a walk.
MR KHALIL
right?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
then I asked him which direction the girls came towards
the house, whether from left or from right. He said they
came from the right hand side, towards the side of the
college and passed the house across the front and gone
round to the left towards the library. He said they stopped
to speak to him briefly.
MR KHALIL
did he say what they spoke about?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
he made reference to them enquiring after Miss Carr, and
when it was explained how she had been a classroom assistant
at this school and knew the girls, and he said how he
had referred to how Miss Carr was actually not feeling
so great at the time; she wasn't doing too well because
she hadn't got the job at the school the following term
to start, and he also stated as well at that point that
Maxine was in the bath. So she therefore did not speak
to the girls directly.
MR KHALIL
just stop you there. was Maxine Carr still present in
the room or not?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
Yes, she was at the time, yes.
MR KHALIL
go on, please?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
Basically, at that point I believe Maxine actually explained.
She was talking about her relationship with the girls.
She explained how I think, really, may be they looked
up to her because she was younger and they all saw her
as being "quite cool", I think were the words
used. She also made reference to the last day of term,
where she was helping out at the school and how Holly
was in tears and how Holly had also given her the card.
MR KHALIL
did she show you anything?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
she did. she showed both Samantha and I myself the card
that she had been given.
MR KHALIL
did she speak of the other child, Jessica?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
she did. She made reference to Jessica. She spoke of both
the girls and when she spoke of Jessica, what I mainly
remember her saying was, how she was slightly different
in her temperament in that she had "a bit more guts",
was the way that she put it.
MR KHALIL
you told us that Ian Huntley said that Miss Carr was in
the bath at the time?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
did she comment about that at all?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
she did. I'm quite sure she did reiterate the point, I
remember, when we were looking at the card, she, both
of them at separate points, made reference to how sad
and full of regret they were that Maxine was in the bath
because had she been present perhaps she would have been
able to speak to the girls for longer and maybe things
wouldn't have gone as they had.
MR KHALIL
you told us that it was about 20 to 6, 5.40 when you arrived
there?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
that's right.
MR KHALIL
time moving on, roughly how long did this conversation
between you last?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
the conversation in total I imagine lasted - I remember
a point being the Six o'clock News.
MR
KHALIL
Because the television had been off?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
that's right, I remember significantly at that point because,
right, as literally the clock hit six Mr Huntley turned
and, by the remote control, switched on the television.
I had previously to that made reference to, oh, the news
will be on at 6 so we'll be able to see what developments
had been in the case, so at 6 exactly without, there wasn't
a reference by myself at that particular point, I had
mentioned it earlier in the conversation, I switched on
the television and the four of us sat and we watched the
headlines and watched, I would imagine, the first half
of the news in silence.
MR KHALIL
so no conversation as you were watching it?
MR KHALIL
What was on the news, what topics did you watch?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
this was specifically relating directly to the Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman case so it really, that was all that
was mentioned. that was all that the programme focused
on because it was such a large story obviously at the
time.
MR KHALIL
the television remained on or was it switched off?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
as I remember, after that item finished and the news moved
on to a different subject, he turned the volume down and
from what I remember just made it quite clear he was very
tired - which he did make reference to throughout the
conversation - very emotional really, simply because of
what was going on, as everyone was; he had not slept very
well because of this and really wanted to get to bed,
so was asking us basically to leave.
MR
KHALIL
did you take the hint and go?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
we did take the hint. but not before just asking him again
if he would be interested in taking part in a television
interview, but at that point he quite adamantly said he
wasn't and he wouldn't change his mind but we were welcome
to call back again another day to speak to him if we wanted
to.
MR KHALIL
thank you very much. if you just wait there there may
be further questions.
Cross-examined
by MR COWARD
MR COWARD
make it clear; you now have your notebook in front of
you?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
This one.
MR COWARD
that deals with events on 6th August?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
That's right.
MR COWARD
when do you say you made the notes?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
I made these particular notes as I was sat in the house
talking to them. I didn't expand on the notes because
our purpose was really to try and sit and make them feel
comfortable and talk about it in their position as, really,
the last witnesses.
MR COWARD
you were with Samantha Rix?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
I was.
MR COWARD
as far as you are aware, was she making any notes?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
no. Samantha didn't have a book with her at the time,
she didn't make any notes.
MR COWARD
are you sure about that, you made the notes on the day?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes , I am. I'm definitely sure. because I had my book
out in front of me, and I remember being conscious that
I didn't want to appear rude and just be scribbling away
in front of me, so I literally as they mentioned the odd
point, wrote it down in my notebook.
MR
COWARD
I have a statement of yours dated 30th October and the
last paragraph of it is as follows, page 1560 "as
a result of a request for information from Cambridgeshire
police on the 17th September, I had got together with
Samantha Rix and we prepared notes of our recollections."
It is from these notes that the statement has been prepared?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes , I believe- I think at that point we had been approached
by the police and we said that we would have to prepare
a statement. We were both working on the same project,
and having been together at the time, we then, because
these were the notes that I had taken on the day, we basically
sat and did from memory, and we sent through an e-mail
of what we exactly remembered on the time to the police
but I don't have a copy of that unfortunately.
MR COWARD
I am not understanding that. the words that I have just
read out to you make it quite clear that the notes were
made on the 17th September, don't they.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
note the notes, notes were made?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
sorry, following notes from which the witness statement,
the police, was exactly copied from. so we retained a
copy of, sorry the witness statement that you have in
front of you. I wasn't referring to these notes, I was
referring to what we prepared for the police to then prepare
a witness statement.
MR COWARD
so do you still have the notes that were made on 17th
September?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
no. As I said, that was just simply sent through as an
e-mail, which went through to the police. That witness
statement was drawn from it, which was exactly word for
word and we then retained those notes.
MR
COWARD
the last sentence of your statement says "I will
retain copies of those notes."?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
yes, I appreciate your point but I mean, my vision of
that was that I would retain a copy of those notes, which
I therefore then retained a copy of the witness statement
which had been written out and signed by myself with the
police.
MR COWARD
you see, one detail I suggest that you are remembering
is false. you have told the members of the jury that Mr
Huntley explained why he was scrubbing and brushing his
dog. You told the members of the jury that he and the
dog had been for a walk?
REBECCA HOGGARTH
yes.
MR COWARD
that's not what he said, is it? let me suggest to you
that what he did say is that the dog had run away from
home and eventually the dog had come back and was filthy
and that's why he was (inaudible)?
REBECCA
HOGGARTH
I don't recall that at all, I'm afraid. As I remember
he said he had been for a walk. This what I'm recalling
from memory been for a walk, the dog was dirty and he
was brushing it down. I don't remember any particular
reference to the dog having run away at any point.
MR COWARD
thank you.
MR KHALIL
thank you, I have no questions.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
thank you very much.
(The witness withdrew)
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