| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
21/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 21 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
MR LATHAM
I call EDWARD FRASER, please J page 1656.
EDWARD
FRASER, sworn
Examined by MR KHALIL
MR KHALIL
give us your full name, please?
EDWARD
FRASER
Edward Michael Fraser.
MR KHALIL
are you employed by British Sky Broadcasting as a news
producer?
EDWARD FRASER
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
my Lord, our chronology page 15, 1630. I want to ask you
about Tuesday, 15th August last year, please. were you
in Soham in Cambridgeshire with other members of the BSkyB
team?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, that's correct.
MR KHALIL
you had spoken with Nick Purnell, one of the producers
about trying to get interviews with Ian Huntley?
EDWARD FRASER
Yes.
MR KHALIL
did you in due course go to the address in College Close
where Ian Huntley was known to live?
EDWARD
FRASER
Yes. The house was pointed out to me and I went over there
with a colleague.
MR KHALIL
a knock on the door. And was the door answered?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, it was.
MR KHALIL
by whom, please?
EDWARD FRASER
by a lady who introduced herself as Maxine Carr.
MR KHALIL
did you wish to interview her or Ian Huntley?
EDWARD FRASER
at the time we had gone to try to speak to Mr Huntley
to get an interview with him and she introduced herself
and said that she had been a teaching assistant in the
school and had known the girls, and they had been in her
class, so at that stage we asked if she might be willing
to do an interview as well.
MR KHALIL
did she agree to that or not?
EDWARD
FRASER
she did, yes, readily.
MR KHALIL
did she speak of whether Mr Huntley would agree to being
interviewed?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, she effectively answered on his behalf and said "Yes
I'm sure he will", when we asked if he might be willing
to give us an interview.
MR KHALIL
right. did you conduct the interviews then or return later?
EDWARD FRASER
no, we returned later, both to meet with Mr Huntley and
Miss Carr.
MR KHALIL
can you recall what time you returned?
EDWARD
FRASER
yes, we returned around four o'clock, which was the time
that we had agreed . There was nobody answering the door
at that stage. We came back around 25 past 4 and Miss
Carr answered the door then.
MR KHALIL
were you allowed in?
EDWARD FRASER
no, we sort of stood at the door, basically.
MR KHALIL
right. how was her appearance, was it the same as earlier
or not?
EDWARD FRASER
no, it was a complete transformation really, she had done
her hair, she had lipstick on, make up, and changed her
clothes as well.
MR KHALIL
did she have anything with her?
EDWARD
FRASER
yes, she had in her hand the card which she said Holly
Wells and Jessica Chapman had given to her in school on
her last day.
MR KHALIL
speaking of her, was there any evidence of Mr Huntley
being around?
EDWARD FRASER
He wasn't there at that stage. we were under the impression
he was returning back from work around four o'clock and
he wasn't there, so I went over to the school to see if
I could find him after that.
MR KHALIL
did you find him?
EDWARD FRASER
I did. I found him at the entrance to the school hall.
MR KHALIL
did you speak with him?
EDWARD FRASER
yes. I said we had spoken to Maxine and she had said that
he would be willing to do an interview and I asked him
if that was the case. He said "Yes, anything to find
the girls."
MR KHALIL
did you then leave him and return to the house?
EDWARD FRASER
yes. I said would he come - we wanted to do the interview,
for television purposes, outside the house where he had
last seen the girls and I asked if that would be okay.
He said "Yes, meet me round at the house in 10 minutes",
and you know, sent us back there.
MR
KHALIL
so you return to the house, set things up, do you?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, correct.
MR KHALIL
did he join you a little while later?
EDWARD
FRASER
he did, yes, but he kind of put us in our place and said,
you know, "Wait there, I have got to do some things",
he met up with another caretaker, handed some keys to
him, had a general chat with him and kept us waiting a
few minutes.
MR KHALIL
do you conduct the interview with Mr Huntley, I think
your presenter was also with you, Jeremy Thompson?
EDWARD FRASER
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
the interview was videod or filmed, yes?
EDWARD
FRASER
yes, it was filmed.
MR KHALIL
did you then wish to conduct a sort of interview with
Miss Carr as well?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, we did a live interview with Miss Carr at five o'clock.
MR KHALIL
where was that?
EDWARD FRASER
it was outside the Ship Pub, I believe, on the High Street
in Soham.
MR KHALIL
my Lord, I have already played the coverage in relation
to those. if you wait there, please, there may be other
questions.
MR COWARD
I have no questions.
MR HUBBARD
Mr Fraser, you believed when you went to the house that
you would have a bit of a hard sell to get an an interview
with Carr?
EDWARD FRASER
correct.
MR KHALIL
did you explain to her you wanted an interview with her
because the story was losing momentum in the ratings?
EDWARD FRASER
I think we put it to her that it was in the best interests
of the missing girls and the families to try and keep
it in the public eye.
MR HUBBARD
you may think this a little odd - you may not remember
it - but something about Legionnaires disease was discussed?
EDWARD FRASER
I don't believe so.
MR HUBBARD
At that time wasn't there something going on in the media
about Legionnaires disease?
EDWARD FRASER
yes, I believe there was a story at the time, yes.
MR HUBBARD
thank you.
MR KHALIL
no questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
(The witness withdrew)
MR KHALIL
I will read the statement of James Richard Latch, page
16 of the chronology. James Richard Latch, a broadcast
journalist for BBC Look East, the lead reporter from Look
East, covering the missing girls Holly Wells and Jessica
Chapman in Soham Friday, 16th August 2002. "I was
at the hall in the Village College in Soham preparing
for a press conference that was to be held at 11.30 a.m..
about 10.15 am amongst the people who were wandering about
the hall was Ian Huntley.
I knew who he was and was aware that other TV and radio
people had carried out interviews with him. Up to that
point, I had not spoken to him so, out of pure curiosity,
I approached him and spoke to him. The conversation lasted
no more than a few minutes. I can remember that I talked
about the press and TV interviews and the number of requests
that he must have had. he explained why he had started
to do interviews.
He said it was because people became suspicious of him
because he kept saying no. He did the interviews because
he had to. He spoke about the interview that he was to
do with ITN later that day, he said he hoped it would
be his last. He said the press did not seem to understand
he did not want to do interviews. I pointed out that he
had done them for 'Look East', and he said that was okay
because it was for the locals. He then said something
like 'Do you know when they are going to stop the search?',
I said I didn't know.
He said 'I have heard when the search gets to seven miles
it is scaled down' I said I was not aware of that. He
said 'Are they still searching for Milly Dowler', I said
something like 'Yes, but not to the same intensity'. he
said 'So you think it will be scaled down at some stage?'
I agreed it probably would at some stage. I did not have
any other conversation with Ian Huntley. I will read the
statement of Kelly Jane Stephens, employed as a press
officer within the department of corporate information
with Cambridge constabulary.
Your role includes being a point of contact for all press
inquiries, at the main Cambridge constabulary and to alert
press to items that may be of media interest or where
they may be able to assist, such as appeals for information
from members of the public through the media. One of the
two dedicated press officers for this inquiry, and they
operate a system called "News Live", a tape
answer phone message which is updated throughout the day
and members of the press office or the duty inspector
of the force control room, no-one else has access to that?
A message is retrieved by 'phoning a dedicated number
given to press agents and journalists. I think it may
be possible to gain the number by ringing the police switchboard.
One occasion she was in Soham Village College, can't remember
the date or time, but spoke to Ian Huntley, believing
him to be a journalist and by mistake told him the number.
However he didn't have pen and paper, she didn't think
he noted it down.
On Monday, 5th August, a press conference was held at
the offices of the East Cambridgeshire district, Ely,
Cambridge, set up by the media to publicise the disappearance
of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. A number of people
were there but Mr Huntley was not present. A news line
was (inaudible) on that occasion. on Tuesday, 6th August
2002, the press conferences were moved to Soham Village
College where they were two press conferences At 11.15,
and 4.30 in the afternoon. Wednesday, 7th August, again
at Soham Village College, conferences at 10 a.m. and 4
p.m.
On Thursday 8th August, conferences at Soham Village College
at 10.15 and at 4.45, force headquarters where detective
Chief Inspector Beck made an appeal. The 9th August, there
was one conference at 10 in the morning, again at the
college. On Saturday, 10th August, reconstruction of Holly
and Jessica's known movements. One o'clock there was an
informal briefing in The Soham Village College to brief
the press.
No conference on Sunday, 11th, Monday, 12th, there was
a press conference at 2 pm. Tuesday, 13th August, a press
conference at 2.30. Wednesday, 14th August, press conference
at 1 pm, 4 pm, Detective Chief Inspector Beck stated he
had left a message on Jessica Chapman's mobile. Thursday,
15th August an off-the-record briefing at (inaudible)
Performing Arts Centre, 7 pm community meeting at Soham
Village College where the press were not allowed access,
but Ian Huntley was present at that meeting, 16th August,
press conference at 11.30.
Each press conference lasted between 30 minutes and an
hour, journalists gathered as a group and arrangements
were made with Soham Village College principal, Mr Gilbert,
indicated at ...(inaudible)... Wednesday, 7th August At
about 9.30 in the morning she was approached by Sergeant
Trudy Speels who handed her a photograph of Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman, dressed in their red Manchester United
shirts. shortly ... (inaudible) ... the girls went missing
... she caused the photograph to be scanned and it was
then subsequently distributed to all the media outlets
together with the press release later that afternoon,
and it was that photograph that had become the main image
in the inquiry, the one the jury have seen. the statement
of Darren Cooper at 1623.
going back to Wednesday, 7th August. detective Sergeant
Cooper, the foot of the page, changes the date subsequently
to Wednesday, 7th August, in company with Detective Constable
Taylor. At midday they drove to number 5 College Road
in Soham. detective Constable Taylor had explained he
was going to meet Ian Huntley so he could sign the consent-to-search
form after the previous day's search, that had been agreed
to by Ian Huntley. They stopped outside number 5; a man
was walking from the college towards the house where they
had been parked.
Constable Taylor got out of the car and approached that
man. They were then out of earshot of Constable Cooper.
it was apparent it was Ian Huntley because he signed the
consent-to-search form. He then walked round the vehicle
to join detective Constable Taylor. "Mr Huntley spoke
to us saying very similar to 'There has been a red Ford
Fiesta seen in this area, seen in suspicious circumstances
in the last few weeks'.
I asked Huntley to be more specific about the date. Trying
to jog his memory I said was it during school time or
since the children have broken up for the holiday. Huntley
said, 'I can't recall, but I remember telling my neighbour,
who had children, about this vehicle.' I asked for a description
of the vehicle and he replied, 'No, I can't.' He then
asked us both to wait here so he could knock on the neighbour's
door to establish the day he had informed his neighbour.
He left us for a couple of minutes, knocked on the door
of 44 College Close and returned with a woman he introduced
as Hilary Scarlett, then spoke to me while Constable Taylor
and Huntley moved away so I was not able to hear what
they were saying. She then provided him with information.
He thanked her for her help and she returned to number
4 College Road. detective Consable Taylor finished his
conversation with Huntley and joined me at car. Ian Huntley
said to me either 'this is tragic' or 'this a tragedy',
at the same time he started to well up with water in his
eyes, almost crying. He was standing about 3 to 4 feet
away at time. I said "I know, thanks for your help.
Hopefully you will find the girls cheers." got into
the car and left, leaving him outside his home address.
The whole incident took between 5 and 10 minutes. When
he informed us about the suspicious car it came out in
a casual way, it wasn't over emphasised by the way he
told us" then we go, please, to 1626 D. the same
of Sophie "On Wednesday , 11 June 2003, ten o'clock
in the morning I was on duty in a plain Toyota Avensis
motor vehicle, near Ross Peers Sport Centre at Lodeside.
I had been asked to drive from the car park at Ross Peers
sports centre to Lode Close junction at- that's the junction
half-way up the left-hand side. between 2.04 and 10.09
completed three journeys from Ross Peers car park, close
to reception doors, to the junction of Lode Close.
Journeys were timed on my watch at
(break
in transcript)
I drove at what I considered to be a safe and reasonable
speed for the road conditions and did not exceed 20 miles
per hour at any stage. The route contains many speed humps
and sharp accurate right hand turns. Leaving college ground
(inaudible) used by pedestrians and motorists, didn't
have to stop at any time. I recorded the mileage as one
10th of a mile on all 3 journeys." The statement
of James Fuller at 1774. Mr Fuller is a journalist employed
by Cambridge Newspapers, covering and reporting in Ely
since 2002. known Kevin Wells several years and regards
him as a friend.
Didn't know Chapman family, had never met them prior to
5th August 2002. over the page, "Monday 5th August
he was made aware Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman had
gone missing from Soham. Soham formed part of the area
of his reporting, he called Kevin and spoke to Nicola
as he was looking out for the children. Arranged to go
over to them and obtain photographs and details of what
had happened, to be published in the following day's edition
of the Cambridge People news."
over the page "To the best of his knowledge, the
first time he met Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr was on 8th
August of 2002. made aware that Ian Huntley had been one
of the last people to see the girls and decided to try
and get an interview with him. met Keith Jones, he is
a photographer, went with him to the house to try and
obtain some photographs. Went to 5 College Close sometime
between 3 and 4 p.m. that day.
Knocked on the door but no-one had answered. After about
15 minutes saw Ian Huntley come to the front of his house
to his car. After a few moments, went back to the house
and I approached, knocked on the door again. After a short
time Ian Huntley came to the door, introduced himself
and confirmed who he was, and further he had been one
of the last people to see the girls on August 4th.
Went on to ask if he would go through the course of events
with me. Initially he said he did not want to talk to
any more reporters. I explained I was from the local press,
not the national press, and also I had (inaudible) with
Kevin Wells. At this he agreed to speak to me. I went
on to point out usually when we interview people, we also
take photographs to be used in the article. Huntley immediately
became defensive and was adamant he did not want anybody
taking his picture; he refused to let the photographer
into the house. Entered the house and immediately saw
a black German shepherd dog, asked him if it was all right
he said it was and I was taken through the hallway into
the living room.
once in the living room, I saw Maxine Carr on the sofa.
sat on the chair and then Huntley sat in another chair
directly opposite with the dog by the side of the chair.
General introductory conversation about press coverage
and the fact I told him I was a local reporter. I remember
Huntley saying "At least you are not feeding off
people's misery". Kept sort of hand notes of my interview
with him. They formed the basis of a report in the Cambridge
Evening News.
During the interview, Maxine Carr described how she knew
Holly and Jessica, said she was a teacher's assistant.
Huntley said he saw two girls he said he did not know
at the time wearing Manchester United tops. One had blonde
hair." They discussed Miss Carr and the fact that
she had not been given a permanent job at the school.
"the girls then walked off towards the library. Maxine
Carr described the last day of term.
She said Holly had been upset and brought her up chocolate
and on the last day of term Holly had made her a card.
Both Huntley and Carr have a message for the families
detailed on the transcript. They discussed the card made
by Holly and Carr produced the card. Asked if we could
have a photograph of Maxine with the card Huntley said
he wouldn't allow them to. I was able to take the card
outside for Keith Jones to take photograph of it. By the
time I spoke to Maxine Carr she was tearful and appeared
upset and dabbed her eyes with a tissue.
The majority of talking was done by Maxine Carr; with
Ian Huntley only really becoming involved when I asked
him directly about when he had seen the girls and when
he refused the photograph. Throughout the interview Huntley
was impassive and showed no emotion; he made no attempt
to comfort Carr when she became upset." over the
page, "I did not ask Carr about her movements on
the 4th August, I do not remember Huntley stating a time
when he saw the schoolgirls.
The whole interview lasted approximately 15 minutes. One
thing I recall was Huntley expressing he wished he had
known the girls better, to engage them in conversation
for longer in order that this may have broken the chain
of events that led to this disappearance. Carr comforted
him and said she wished it had been her that had spoken
to them, not him - that's not included in the notes because
the conversation was taking place as we were being shown
out of the house.
cannot recall much about the interior of the house other
than it appeared clean and tidy." the statement of
Catherine Ellen Fitzsimon at 1827, please. Catherine Ellen
Fitzsimon, an outlook producer for Sky News based at Osterley,
West London. She was deployed to Soham for one day only
on Thursday, 15th August. She was in Soham around 12 hours
between 8.30 am and 8.30 pm. "At some point between
2.30 and 3.30 I was with my colleague EDWARD FRASER ,
another producer."
5 College Close was pointed out to them as they wished
to get an interview with Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr.
"I knocked on the door and the dog barked. A woman
I believe to be Maxine Carr answered the door. She was
white, slimly built with curly brown hair. Wondered if
Ian was about and if he would like to talk to us. She
said this would be fine. I asked Maxine if she could remember
what had happened on the night the girls went missing.
She said she was in the bath when the girls came by the
house and spoke to Ian.
She said they asked Ian how Miss Carr was as they knew
she had not got the teaching job. She explained the first
she knew about this was when Ian came inside and told
her about the two girls. He described them as one with
blonde hair and one with dark hair. I asked her if she
would do a live interview with us later and she agreed.
She mentioned the card having been made for her. She also
mentioned she got on really well with the girls.
Not sure she used the past or present tense when talking
about Holly and Jessica. Edward and I returned to 5 College
Close about 4.40; one of us walked Maxine Carr to the
Ship Pub in the centre or Soham for a live interview with
Jeremy Thompson. At 6.15 I returned alone to 5 College
Close to try and arrange an interview with Ian Huntley.
I may have by now seen a picture of him in a newspaper
but cannot be sure. I knocked on the door.
A man I believe to be Ian Huntley answered the door. Short
dark hair, and dark eyes eyes and Fred Perry style polo
shirt. He looked like he was in work clothes. I asked
if he would do an interview. He said he was about to have
his tea. I asked if he would be free later. I knew he
was going to a meeting in the school. He said he would
talk to us after that meeting. I had a general conversation
with him about the case so I had an idea what he would
say to the journalist later.
I had to prompt him to get comments on particular factors
surrounding the case. I think I must have prompted him
regarding the appeal made by senior police officers about
the mobile phone text message. He moaned about this, said
it was a stupid idea. Went on to say what if the phone
was broken or if they did not have it any more.
When he mentioned the phone and abductors, I'm fairly
sure he used plural. I can't be sure if during this conversation
Huntley referred to the girls in the past or present tense."
over the page "During my conversation with Huntley,
I noticed the only point he became animated over was the
point about the phone, the text message appeal.
He didn't volunteer any information until this point which
he clearly had a strong opinion on." Then two short
statements - David Johnman's at 1808. David Johnman's
is a Local Government Officer for **Forest Heath District
Council. One of his roles is operational management of
the close circuit television system within the Forest
Heath district. "during 2002, I was aware of all
publically owned CCTV systems within the Forest Heath
District. I can say the road known as Wangford Road runs
between the A1065 and B1112 is not, and has never been,
covered by a public CCTV system."
statement of Susan Mitchell at 1569, please. Susan Mitchell
is the warden of Quayside Court in Lakenheath Suffolk.
"Quayside Court is a complex of 20 bungalows for
old people, it is warden controlled. Quayside is owned
and run by Forest Heath District Council, who are based
in Mildenhall. Lilly Gollings resides as 22 Quayside Court
and has done since 29th June 1998, the statement is dated
11 November of 2002.
She has lived there continuously to date, not moving out
during this time period. Lilly moved to Quayside Court
from an address in Brecon Avenue, Lakenheath. Lilly Gollings
lives by herself and has done since she moved to Quayside
Court." Is that a convenient point?
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
yes, two o'clock.
Hearing adjourned
- will resume after lunch
MR
LATHAM
I recollect the witness
DEBBIE TUBBY
was asked to go away and get the notes. that she has done
and I understand my learned friend would like to ask her
some more questions so I merely call her and tender her
for further cross-examination
DEBBIE
TUBBY , recalled.
Re-examinated by MR COWARD.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
you are still on oath.
MR LATHAM
will you wait there, please.
MR COWARD
Miss Tubby when you gave evidence yesterday, I think it
was, you told the Members of the Jury about a conversation
you said you had on Monday 5th August with Mr Huntley.
Would you have now available to you, please, your two
blue books, which cover the entire period, they obviously
cover other matters and I'm not interested in those and
I will not be asking you about those. For the moment,
please, I am interested in the first book, which covers
your start of your involvement in the Soham inquiry. could
you just check first of all please, whether the date is
correct,? you said to the Jury that on the day you first
met Mr Huntley, he gave you his mobile phone number. can
you find the page?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it was actually written on the day on (inaudible) I turned.
I wrote the actual mobile number, it was ten o'clock at
night but turn the page over when I started writing on
the Tuesday, it looked as though it was the Tuesday he
gave me the number.
MR COWARD
could you say that again slowly?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
its dated here Monday and my notes were for each day.
Ian Huntley's number is written on the Tuesday because
that page was full when I saw him in the car park that
night; I turned the page over and in the middle of the
page, because it was dark I couldn't see very well, I
just wrote his mobile number down, and on the Tuesday
I started from the top of the page. So it looks as though
the mobile number was given on the Tuesday.
MR COWARD
could you find the entry that relates to the mobile number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
does it say this "Ian...", then his mobile telephone
number, "....last seen 5.50 asked wife, teacher?"
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
what date does that page bear at the top?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
Tuesday, but the phone number----
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
just answer the questions before rushing off to the explanation.
MR COWARD
so there is written Tuesday, 6th August at the top of
the page, but your explanation is that when you spoke
to Mr Huntley you turned the page over in the dark and
it is about in the middle of the page, isn't it, Ian Huntley's
mobile number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, it is in a box as well.
MR COWARD
so you still are confident it is fifth August?
DEBBIE TUBBY
absolutely.
MR COWARD
and that's the extent of your note for - whether it is
5th or 6th does not perhaps matter - that's the extent
of your note, is it, "Ian mobile number last seen
5.50, asked wife, teacher." Would you turn to a page
headed, "Chief Superintendent Hankins", please,
written at the top of the page?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
those are notes you made at the press conference aren't
they?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
would you agree with me they are very extensive notes
of what was said?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, they are. As TV journalists, we take down all notes
at press conferences. We (inaudible) time to find a clip.
I wrote down everything in the press conference so we
could outline the clip we were going to use at one o'clock.
MR COWARD
you found no difficulty doing that when you were at the
press conference?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's right, no.
MR COWARD
equally you had no difficulty if you wanted, in doing
that when you spoke to Mr Huntley?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I didn't realise he was going to be a big part of the
case.
MR COWARD
exactly.
MR COWARD
if you turn over further there is a word on the right
hand side, the word before, in the middle of the page,
do you have it, a page with the word "bed" on?
DEBBIE TUBBY
bed.
MR COWARD
I think it says bed, B - E - D?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you have that? on that page is there Maxine Carr's
mobile phone number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
Anything else or just Maxine and then her number?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no, there are more things on there as well.
MR COWARD
if you go on a couple more pages you come to a page that
is torn, the corner has been torn off it?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
on the page that immediately followed the page that has
the corner torn off it there is an entire page which has
been torn out, isn't there?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
do you remember how that came about?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
I probably gave directions to a cameraman to go to a certain
location or give him a telephone number or the contact
of somebody or something I needed him to film. Because
two girls had gone missing, we were under very tight deadlines,
didn't have time to go to a shop to buy another piece
of paper, so I tore it out of my note book.
MR COWARD
Rather than taking it from the back of the book you took
it out of your----?
DEBBIE TUBBY
the following page, before I would continue in the notebook,
yes.
MR COWARD
is the next entry - sorry I can't give a page number -
your writing, "Ring Maxine, no video". It may
be on that page or it may be - it is after the page that
has been torn out?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
have you that? that's all it says, "Ring Maxine,
no video"?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
would you turn to a page which is headed Thursday, 8th
August ?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
is there, I think it is in very small writing, and I'm
trying to read your writing- saw minutes before CCTV tape?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's right.
MR COWARD
that's obviously a reference to Mr Huntley?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's right.
MR COWARD
of his sighting and you making a note for yourself, it
was minutes before the CCTV tape. On the opposite page
to that there is a box in the bottom left-hand corner.
would you read out what is in the box?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
it says when did you see the girls, what was said, how
did they seem, what frame of mind and how concerned.
MR COWARD
which is obviously a series of questions you were planning
to ask Mr Huntley or Miss Carr, or both?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
that's right.
MR COWARD
connected to this inquiry. so we have got the questions
down, where do we find the answers?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
didn't do an interview on that day.
MR
COWARD
what day is this?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's Thursday, 8th. He didn't do a television interview
on that day.
MR COWARD
but you told us that you did see Mr Huntley on that day?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes I did.
MR COWARD
and you have told us that he said have they found the
girls clothes?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes.
MR COWARD
where is that in your book?
DEBBIE TUBBY
I write down things----.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
just answer the question, where is that, in your book,
is the question?
MR COWARD
it is not in your book, is it?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
it is not in by my book, no.
MR COWARD
are you telling the Jury it was so significant at the
time?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it was so significant. It stayed in my mind and I reported
it to the police. That's why it was so significant.
MR COWARD
if it is so significant, Miss Tubby, why on earth, if
you have your book, the Bible you carry with you all the
time?
DEBBIE TUBBY
no it is a reminder. it is a reminder of the things I
need to do, not what happened.
MR COWARD
turn to the next page, please. does it say "last
person to see the girls"?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
sorry, I don't know where you mean it says last person
to see to the girls.
MR COWARD
sorry?
DEBBIE TUBBY
it says last person to speak to the girls.
MR
COWARD
last person to speak to, is it? if you turn to Friday,
9th August, I think you have an entry there that just
says Ian, 10.30 am interview?
DEBBIE
TUBBY
yes, he was due to do an interview at 10.30am.
MR COWARD
unless I missed something, that's the entirety of the
notes that you made at the time as events happened isn't
it?
DEBBIE TUBBY
that's the right timing what is coming up, what I need
to do - a reminder, yes.
MR LATHAM
did he or did he not say what you described about the
clothing?
DEBBIE TUBBY
yes, he did.
MR LATHAM
I have no other re-examination.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
thank you very much.
MR LATHAM
thank you very much indeed.
(The witness
withdrew)
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