| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
24/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Monday, 24 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03
MR LATHAM
my Lord my next witness will be fibre expert.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
are we going to have (inaudible) afternoon it doesn't
look as though we are.
MR LATHAM
it will take little time, the remaining experts are warned
for tomorrow, my Lord.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
so we may not.
MR LATHAM
we may not run right the way through.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
two o'clock ladies and gentlemen, remember the warning
I gave you. Hearing adjourned - will resume after lunch
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I'm aware of two notes from the Jury, the second
of which - we need to trouble about the first note which
in fact touches upon evidence that we are going to deal
with this afternoon, the fibre expert, so it may be if,
whoever it was who wrote the question which we have all
seen, by the end of the afternoon the answer should be
apparent. PETER LAMB, please. my Lord, he is to be found
in the Fiesta file, which is 4063.
PETER
LAMB , sworn
Examined by MR LATHAM.
MR LATHAM
Mr Lamb, will you tell us your name, please?
PETER LAMB
my full name is PETER LAMB.
MR LATHAM
you are a forensic scientist, I think?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
Based where?
PETER LAMB
the Forensic Science Service Laboratory Park, Huntingdon,
Cambridge.
MR LATHAM
Mr Lamb, your qualifications?
PETER
LAMB
I am a member of the Institute of Biology, a chartered
biologist, registered forensic practitioner and member
of the Institute of Leadership and Management and Member
of the International Association of the Blood Pattern
and Assessor for the Council of Registration of Forensic
(inaudible) National Qualification Systems and senior
scientist at (inaudible).
MR LATHAM
Mr Lamb, you will appreciate I'm going to cover a number
of, as it were, entirely separate topics, the largest
of which will be fibre evidence. May I try to deal with
one or two of the separate and contained areas of your
evidence before we actually move on to overview of fibre.
I get the picture from you, were you asked to go to the
site where the two bodies were found near Lakenheath?
PETER LAMB
I was, yes. may I take leave to look at my notes?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, absolutely.
MR LATHAM
and during the time that you were there, was that over
the weekend when the bodies were first found and, indeed
up and after the time they were removed to the mortuary?
PETER LAMB
That's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
did you ever visit number 5 College Close?
PETER
LAMB
no, I didn't.
MR LATHAM
Did you ever visit the hangar?
PETER
LAMB
no, I haven't.
MR LATHAM
I think the position is this you received a large number
of items from various scenes of crimes officers and, indeed,
from other scientists that had been seized from locations
such as the car, the Fiesta, the body deposition site,
the hangar and the house?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
I read part of the evidence of a witness last week who
was asked to screen large quantities of the soil and vegetation
taken from the deposition site, the immediate area where
the bodies had been found, to see whether any fabric of
any sort could be filtered out from that material. That
scientist was able to do precisely that and produced two
small pieces of fibre, I say fibre - material; BAF1 and
2, were you ... that that had been obtained?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think you then looked at the track suit bottoms, which
we now know were associated with Jessica Chapman, to see
whether either or both those items could in any way be
linked to track suit bottoms, did you not?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
one of the items was a logo, wasn't it, or part of an
Umbro logo?
PETER LAMB
yes, it was one part of it.
MR LATHAM
What were you able to do with that part of the logo?
PETER LAMB
the part of the logo that had been recovered from the
soil once it was cleaned, formed a perfect physical fit
with the remains of the logo still on the track suit bottoms.
MR LATHAM
the two dark blue pieces of material, VAF 1 and VAF 2
which again had come from the soil, you were able to examine
and, as it were, lay alongside the type of fabric of which
HNT 4 A the track suit bottoms from Jessica; you were
able to compare those as well?
PETER
LAMB
yes, although they didn't form a perfect physical fit,
they were of the same type of fibre composition and colour
as the track suit bottoms.
MR LATHAM
indeed, looking at the type of of material of VAF1 and
2 around looking at the way the track suit bottoms have
been cut, what did you conclude from that?
PETER
LAMB
the pieces that I examined appear to have been roughly
cut from the track suit bottoms. It is the type of cuts
that we commonly see in the laboratory, the sort of cuts
that you often see with medical intervention, where paramedics
or doctors have attempted to remove clothing from people
in order to render first aid.
MR LATHAM
I think the other item or items you found within this
filtered soil, if I can put it that way, the soil and
vegetation, were fragments of beige coloured latex type
material, is that right?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
and what did these have the same appearance as?
PETER LAMB
they are very similar to the type of protective gloves
that, or certainly we sometimes use in the lab and that
medics quite often use. I understand you can actually
buy these now in ordinary shops.
MR
LATHAM
several fragments of those within the soil filter exhibits?
PETER LAMB
yes, there were.
MR LATHAM
can I ask you one or two questions (inaudible) I shall
get Dr Carey tomorrow to describe the scene in detail,
but were you there when the bodies were still in situ?
PETER LAMB
I was, yes.
MR LATHAM
was there any smell of accelerant anywhere near either
of the bodies or from any samples taken from the photos?
PETER LAMB
yes, it was quite a clear smell of what appeared a petrol-like
substance, some form of accelerant.
MR
LATHAM
I think your initial reaction - professional reaction
- looking at the two bodies, which were naked in the ditch,
was what in relation to how they had been placed in the
ditch. Your initial reaction?
PETER
LAMB
my initial reaction was they had had been placed in the
ditch naked, that was really based on the burn patterns
and such like on the bodies.
MR LATHAM
however, when you had the opportunity of seeing the clothing
recovered from the bin, given that that clothing was identifiable
as the clothing relating to the two girls and, indeed,
you have seen the small pieces of blue fabric recovered
from the soil and I think part of a pocket recovered by
Dr Carey from one of the bodies during the initial part
of the post-mortem, you changed your view did you not.
PETER LAMB
Yes, I think based on later examinations it became clear
to me that at least the track suit bottoms had been cut
off whilst the two girls were in the ditch.
MR LATHAM
can I ask you now to turn, if I may, to fibre and fibre
transfer? I would like you to tell the jury something
about fibre transfer in general before we come to specifics,
if I may. Clothing is made up of what, Mr Lamb?
MR LATHAM
By and large it is made up of a variety of different types
of fibre which are either knitted or woven together to
form a garment, a piece of textile material.
MR LATHAM
I think some fibres are naturally occurring, such as wool
and cotton, is that right?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
and of course nowadays a considerable quantity of clothing
is made from man-made fibres like acrylic and polyester
and nylon?
PETER LAMB
yes, that's quite correct.
MR LATHAM
in the laboratory are you able to do something in relation
to fibres from which garments are made?
PETER
LAMB
yes, we can do quite a lot with fibres, we compare the
colours and types of fibre under a microscope, we can
then take that further so we can look at the particular
constituents of any dyes used to die the fabrics and we
can identify very carefully and accurately the type of
fibre used in the manufacture of the garment.
MR LATHAM
what this the first test, if I can put it that way, you
would normally do on a fibre presented to you?
PETER LAMB
we normally start off with the simplest of test, that
is to compare the colours of them and we compare the colour
by naked eye under a low power microscope to start with
and then we progress to high power microscopy and look
at the fibre colours and the make and structure of the
fibre, first of all by high powered microscopy and white
light and then we use blue filtered light and ultra violent
light, because we know those two qualities of light will
change or will allow the fibre die itself to give off
different colours and this is highly discriminatory.
MR LATHAM
when you used the expression "highly discriminatory",
would you just explain what you mean by it?
PETER LAMB
that means by and large we can rule out a great number
of the white fibres that we pick off just by looking with
the naked eye so although these fibres look like the same
under low powered microscope, by using the naked eye once
we use these different qualities of light we can rule
a great many out. There is no need to take them any further.
MR LATHAM
you went on to say you looked at the dyes and colours
using something other than microscopics, would you just
explain to the Jury in short form the sort of tests you
do?
PETER LAMB
there are basically two tests that look at the dyes which
manufacturers use to colour fabrics and the first test
is an instrument which measures the absorbance of light
by that particular dye and produces a graphical representation
of the colour of that particular dye and again this is
highly discriminatory. The second test we do its actually
strip the dye from the fibre, and then to separate the
dye into its component parts, so for example a blue colour
may have three or four different components to make that
particular blue colour.
MR LATHAM
back to the beginning, are you in any way damaging, changing
your original exhibit, the single fibre by looking at
it with a microscope?
PETER LAMB
No, that doesn't damage it at all.
MR
LATHAM
the next test you describe was a different type of microscopy?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
does that affect the integrity of the fibre?
PETER LAMB
no, again, that particular test doesn't damage the fibre
at all.
MR LATHAM
once you start stripping the dye out from the fibre, what
in effect are you doing to that particular exhibit, the
single fibre you are looking at?
PETER
LAMB
it is being altered so therefore no-one else can actually
look at it and verify what we have seen.
MR
LATHAM
if you in the laboratory are in relation to any case you
are asked to investigate, presented with just one fibre,
for example, would you necessarily go to the stage that
you have now described of semi-destroying of that fibre
by doing the chemical test on the dyes?
PETER
LAMB
not without consulting with other people, no.
MR LATHAM
because what the defence experts have the opportunity
to do, obviously at a later stage, after you have done
your work, what are they entitled to do if they wish?
PETER LAMB
they are entitled to see exactly the same dye.
MR LATHAM
exhibits, get given to an expert to look at an exhibit?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
if, in a case, you are presented with what turns out to
be 25 fibres that you are interested in, all of ostensibly
the same type what would you feel able to do in relation
to a semi-destructive test?
PETER LAMB
We would only examine some of the fibres thereby allowing
anyone else to view fibres which we have not destroyed.
MR LATHAM
leaving some for a defence expert to do the same test
if he or she wished?
PETER LAMB
if they wished to, yes.
MR LATHAM
you have described clothes being made up of many different
types of fibres and we are all aware of course many different
colours. I take it not just a blue jumper or red jumper
or yellow jumper?
PETER LAMB
not when talking about these sort of tests, no.
MR LATHAM
jumpers that look an identical colour maybe?
PETER LAMB
we can tell the difference.
MR LATHAM
you can tell the difference?
PETER LAMB
in fact there has been quite a lot of work done on a Marks
and Spencer jumper that has been in production for years.
MR LATHAM
I was going ask about that, perhaps you can tell the Jury
about it now?
PETER LAMB
Marks and Spencers - it sounds like an advert for them,
sorry about this - Marks and Spencers have quite strict
quality control and produce a blue V neck jumper and it
has been in production for many years now. Very kindly
they allowed us to take samples of this and also to give
us production runs for it, so we know roughly how many
of them are in the population at large. so we can actually
look at the tapings of searches, public transfer, tapings
of clothing and see if we can actually find them in the
population.
MR LATHAM
how many of these jumpers have we going into circulation
at this time roughly speaking, what are we talking about?
PETER LAMB
I think something like three hundred thousand produced
a year.
MR LATHAM
and knowing what the individual constituent fibres of
that jumper look like, and what the chemical test tells
you about that type of jumper, when you come to look at
a random selection of fibres as you have said, tapings
of public transfer, tapings of clothes and so on, how
often do the jumper fibres crop up?
PETER
LAMB
very rarely.
Transcript edited by Sky News
MR LATHAM
pause there; if we look at something on the screen that's
not specifically related to this case, Mr Lamb, but is
that the type of tape that you are talking about?
PETER LAMB
Yes, that's exactly the type.
MR LATHAM
we can see it has all sorts of bits and pieces sticking
to it, literally hundreds of very small items sticking
to it?
PETER LAMB
yes, very small fibres.
MR LATHAM
put under under the microscope, what is happening here
is we search for particular colours and types of fibre?
PETER LAMB
Yes.
MR LATHAM
you search for things of interest to you?
PETER
LAMB
Yes.
MR LATHAM
which is what happened in this slide, I think?
PETER LAMB
any fibres we feel are worthy of further
MR
LATHAM
if we look at the next slide, it is the red line here
one of those circles?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
and the fibre you are interested in is the small, very
small piece at the centre of the circle, against the rule?
PETER LAMB
Yes, the red fibre, yes. and this one we put a marker
to show you how big it is, just over 2mm long.
MR LATHAM
one of the items obviously of considerable interest in
this case was the red Manchester United top, wasn't it?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
I think you were provided with considerable information
about its manufacture, the nature of the fabric which
the item is made of, and also the dye and so on?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
made, I think, from more than one type of fabric isn't
it?
PETER LAMB
it is made from wool and four types of polyester fibre
which we can distinguish between.
MR
LATHAM
as a garment, it is obviously for use in sport. What does
that mean, it is about its general proper use as a garment?
PETER LAMB
the company which develop it will have made the fabric
for a particular purpose, this was for use in the sporting
environment. It was to allow sweat to be whipped away
so the body remained quite dry so it is more comfortable
and the way it was made was that different sorts of polyester
were woven together with wool trapped between it. The
wool was quite firmly trapped because its purpose was
to whip away the moisture and as such this fabric did
not shed its constituent fibres particularly well and----.
MR LATHAM
indeed it is designed for sort of pretty violent
PETER LAMB
Yes.
MR LATHAM
it is a sports shirt?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
would you expect a garment like that to shed fibres, many
fibres in normal use, as being worn?
PETER
LAMB
no, we in an arbitrary scale test the shedability of the
fibre by sticking some of this adhesive tape to it, which
is far more destructive than rubbing up against it, peel
it off and assess the number of fibres pulled off by sellotape.
In this particular case we assess its shedding qualities
as moderate.
MR LATHAM
If cut, what happens to its shedability?
PETER
LAMB
If you cut through fabric you have probably seen yourselves
as you are cutting through it there are a lot more fibres
shed his while you are cutting through it, so there are
far more fibres available to be transferred to whatever
is close by than would be normally, if the items
MR LATHAM
I think you soon discover from the two Manchester United
tops recovered from the bodies were exactly the same as
each other, is that right?
PETER LAMB
yes, I couldn't tell the difference using the test.
MR LATHAM
so if one finds a fibre on something which you say matches
one of those shirts, are you able to say which of the
two shirts it has come from?
PETER LAMB
no.
MR LATHAM
can I ask you about carpeting. I think with your the boot
of Fiesta motor car and also carpet from number 5
PETER LAMB
Yes, I was.
MR LATHAM
first of all were you able to distinguish between the
material of which the carpet was made that came from the
boot and the house carpet?
PETER LAMB
no, that appeared to be the same composition of both fibre
types and colours.
MR LATHAM
because in fact was it one colour or more than one colour
in fact, that carpet?
PETER LAMB
I think it was about five colours in total.
MR LATHAM
I have got here turquoise, blue, black, grey and
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
before we move specifically to looking at the various
items of clothing, I think one other type of fibre you
found from this exhibit was head hair, wasn't it?
PETER LAMB
Yes.
MR LATHAM
which, in a sense, is a type of fibre that as far as you
are concerned in the laboratory I take it?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
a type of what.
MR LATHAM
fibre. with your also provided the with some head hair
sample taken from Mr Huntley by the police after he had
been arrested?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you compare the head hairs taken from Mr Huntley with
the head hairs which were found mixed up amongst the clothing
from the bin?
PETER LAMB
I did.
MR LATHAM
looking at them under a microscope, both at colour and
microscopic structure, could you distinguish between them?
PETER LAMB
no, the hairs that we recorded from the clothing and Mr
Huntley's hair were indistinguishable by the tests available
to me.
MR LATHAM
more particularly were the hairs that came from the clothing
damaged in the same of- in any way burned?
PETER
LAMB
no, they showed no signs whatsoever of being subjected
to any heat so it didn't look as if they were burned or
singed at all.
MR LATHAM
have you seen the photographs of the bin and its contents
when it was found, the various items down in the bottom
of the bin?
PETER LAMB
I have, yes. My colleague examined those, I have seen
them.
MR LATHAM
what is that - there is evident fire damage?
PETER LAMB
Correct.
MR LATHAM
what does that lead us to conclude about the individual
head hairs that were recovered from within the bin?
PETER LAMB
I would suggest that they were not on the surface of the
bin or the bags or anything and they were protected from
the heat in some way, that is they were probably mixed
up with the garments themselves.
MR
LATHAM
those head hairs were sent off for a form of testing,
weren't they?
PETER LAMB
That's correct, at our Birmingham laboratory.
MR LATHAM
mitochondrial DNA testing?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
you have been using the expression "discriminatory"
in relation to fibres by using various tests that you
can do in the laboratory. The Jury will no doubt have
heard or read of DNA testing in relation to things like
body fluids, blood and the like?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
which is highly discriminatory, millions and millions
to one?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
is mitochondrial DNA the test you can do with human head
hair; is that as discriminatory as DNA testing of blood,
for example?
PETER LAMB
no, it is not, because the DNA testing that we might be
familiar with, with the national DNA database, that is
a combination of both one's mother's and father's DNA
whereas the mitochondrial DNA, incorporated into things
like hair and fingernails and suchlike, that one travels
down the maternal line so brothers and sisters would have
exactly the same mitochondrial sequence as their mother.
MR LATHAM
if you do a mitochondrial test on head hair what happens
to head hair as a result of the the test?
PETER
LAMB
it is destroyed.
MR LATHAM
so we are back into having to decide whether you are going
to destroy an exhibit or not in order to do the test?
PETER LAMB
yes.
Transcript edited by Sky News
MR LATHAM
can we come on to the clothing please? as you have said
you received many, many items of clothing in the laboratory,
both from the bin and seized from elsewhere. the Jury
may remember when I opened the case there were various
schedules to be used alongside the Power Point presentation
we are going to look at. These schedules, Members of the
Jury, which are to be found at the back of the green binders,
start by looking at the two Manchester United shirts which
you told us cannot be distinguished fibre-for-fibre; although
they have different fibres within them, they are both
identical for scientific purposes?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct, yes. Although I would point out I have
received quite a number of Manchester United tops and
I have been able to distinguish them from these two.
MR LATHAM
I think, for example, that there was one that Mr Huntley
had at number 5?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
which on the face of it was another Manchester ted top;
but you were able to say what about that?
PETER
LAMB
that was completely different and certainly Manchester
United themselves provided us with samples which we were
able to say were different from these.
MR
LATHAM
we start with the bin and with the two shirts HNT 3 and
TNT 5 and it is made up as you told us of more than one
type of fibre, is it not?
PETER LAMB
yes, one wool and four different types of polyester, but
all dyed the same colour.
MR LATHAM
we see them highlighted there, do we not, on this
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
this is in graphic form on the screens and we have got
it in a table the first table the Jury has, fibre transfers
from the two Manchester United shirts. I think you found
fibres from one or other of these shirts or an identical
type of shirt on a number of items which were seized from
number 5 College Close, didn't you?
PETER
LAMB
I did, yes.
MR LATHAM
we can look at those please. firstly, there were 15 fibres
on that yellow Yves St Laurent shirt?
PETER
LAMB
yes, a mixture of wool and polyester.
MR
LATHAM
have you on the chart a document like this or a document
like it?
PETER LAMB
I have a document very similar to it.
MR
LATHAM
it may be said we are all working from the- exactly the
same, the last section in this ring binder.
MR LATHAM
the first is the Yves St Laurent shirt?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
in all you recovered 15 fibres, didn't you
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
if you look at the number there are four different categories
of fibre you found on that shirt?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
if you would like to list them and how many of each so
we understand how the chart works?
PETER
LAMB
certainly, the red wool which is part of the registered
trade marks sport wool, I found 8 of those fibres. The
red polyester and in particular this round polyester that
was present, I found three of those fibres. the crimped
polyester I found one of those and the polyester which
forms the trim of the sleeve I found three of those.
MR LATHAM
can we look at the column or series of columns headed
Forensic Tests which come as the last entry, as it were,
after the fibres we have been looking it, do you see that?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
what first column micro-?
PETER LAMB
that's microscopy, the high powered microscopy I referred
to earlier, and this is in both white light and the filtered
blue and ultra violet light.
MR LATHAM
we've compared the number of fibres you have for each
of those types with the microscopy column. We see you
subjected them all to microscopies because it is a non-destructive
test. " non-destructive. the MSP test,
PETER LAMB
this is a test which uses an instrument called a micro
spectrophotometer, which measures the absorption of the
dye over a wide wavelength of light, and again it is a
non-destructive test.
MR LATHAM
so you have done it on every fibre?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
the FTIR test?
PETER LAMB
This is a test for identifying the type of fibre. Now,
with wool you can identify things like wool and cotton
and linen and that sort of thing by microscopy - no need
to do this test. (inaudible) transfer infra red it is
called. you use that to identify man-made fibres.
MR LATHAM
so you didn't do it for any of the red sports wool, the
first 8 fibres?
PETER LAMB
no, I wouldn't have done it on any wool or curtain fibres
present in this case so----
MR LATHAM
Have you only done it on the man-made fibres, the polyesters?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
and again it is non-destructive.
MR
LATHAM
so have you done it for each of the polyester fibres as
we can see?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
finally, TLC?
PETER LAMB
TLC stand for thin layer chromatography; that is what
splits the parts of the dye into the original colours.
MR LATHAM
and?
PETER LAMB
this is the destructive.
MR LATHAM
so of the 8 sports wool fibres you have only done it on
3?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
in each of these do we have a match or not?
PETER LAMB
the numbers refer only to the matches. not match, all
matches, by whatever test you have applied to the particular
fibre?
PETER LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
no need for me to go in that detail obviously through
each item on the schedule, but the Jury, I hope, will
now understand what those columns mean and the tests that
you have done on those items. So if we see "wool"
anywhere on any of the schedules, there is no purpose
in doing the third test, the TIR test, and in the 4th
column the TLC, that's the destructive one, so you may
not have done it on all the fibres?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
so that is the very first item on the schedule. Can we
now look at some beige trousers, the second item?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
that was found in the main bedroom on the bed three fibres
on that pair of trousers?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
the grey fleece, again on the main bed, one fibre?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
black jacket, found in the airing cupboard, one fibre?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
then a boot that we were looking at this morning which
was seized at the time of Mr Huntley's arrest, one fibre
found on that?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
now, here we have got two fibres from or matching the
shirts found on the boot carpet?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
now we are later going to see fibres which match
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
you have told us you can't distinguish between the boot
carpet and the house carpets, it is the same type of carpet?
PETER LAMB
the same type of carpet, yes.
MR LATHAM
we are going this way, this is red fibres on that particular
piece of carpeting, the piece of carpeting that was in
the boot?
PETER LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
bath mat, two fibres there. can I ask you this the bath
mat was found on the kitchen work top. You may hear evidence
that it had been brought in from the washing line by a
police officer and put on the kitchen top before being
seized as an exhibit. What happens to a garment if it
is washed in terms of fibres which may have been in it
before it is washed?
PETER LAMB
depending on how well it is washed it may remove some
or all the fibres there previously. However when we find
only one fibre I can't tell the difference then between
direct contact and secondary contact.
MR
LATHAM
certainly on that bath mat you found two fibres?
PETER LAMB
yes. carpets are all distinguishable to where the carpets
were before they were seized but I think you found two
red fibres on the main bedroom carpet?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
one on the front piece of carpeting in the main room downstairs?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
two on the other piece in the same room?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
two in the item at the bottom of the stairs?
PETER LAMB
I'm sorry could you help me with that one? if you could
give me my reference for that rather than the court's.
MR LATHAM
yes RMS 22?
PETER LAMB
RM S 22, I have got two fibres. yes I think this one is
test LB 7.
MR LATHAM
the one we are now looking at is from just inside the
front door isn't it?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
the previous one - just one RMS 22?
PETER
LAMB
yes, there are two, RMS 22, yes.
MR
LATHAM
two on the stair carpet?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
one from the hall ?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
and then what is happening here, what does covered tapings
mean, DJB 4 and I don't know where these tapings were
taken from?
PETER LAMB
All I know is they weren't taken from in the cupboard.
They may have been----.
MR LATHAM
it is located a walk in cupboard in the main bedroom,
there were two walk in cupboards in the main bedroom at
either end of the bedroom. The tapings would be tapes
which had been laid down across?
PETER
LAMB
yes, the same way we described earlier.
MR
LATHAM
and the middle cushion from the sofa in the living room?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
more generally, furniture tapings from arm chairs and
the sofa in the lounge so this is taping rubbed across
various items?
PETER LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
six of those there?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
SLB 38 I asked the witness about that this morning, they
were found, those dusters in a cupboard under the kitchen
sink. Pausing there with those items, what, there is a
fibre found on a duster which is in a cupboard, what does
that suggest to you, if anything, as a scientist?
PETER LAMB
one of the explanations for it could be that the duster
has been used to clean up and it has picked up one of
the red fibres whilst it has been doing that.
MR LATHAM
what would the likelihood be of the duster that had been
in a cupboard and the cupboard door closed that of getting
one of those fibres on in any other way?
PETER
LAMB
unless the item had been put in the cupboard I don't think
it would be possible.
MR LATHAM
then the duvet cover from the main bedroom and finally
the sheet so 49 fibres matching the shirts, is this.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
is this a photograph they are going to have in their bundle?
MR LATHAM
my Lord, it is in their photograph.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
when you go out and look at this we'll have at least an
aide-memoir.
MR LATHAM
the Jury have a summary, for example this summary schedules
in your bundle, the two separate exhibits. The top schedule
is headed fibre transfers on to the Manchester United
shirt, and on this occasion you can of course specify
it is Jessica's shirt as opposed to Holly's shirt, can't
you, having been told which was which?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
we are now looking at fibres actually found on it?
PETER LAMB
on the item itself, yes.
MR LATHAM
At this point 12 carpet fibres found on that shirt?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
but you can't distinguish between carpet found at the
house or carpet from the boot?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
so it is expressed in the terms we see it in the photograph
there it could be either?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
or both?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
yes. Taking that jacket as an example, would that be a
good shedder, or a poor shedder that type of material?
PETER LAMB
I think it would probably be moderate.
MR
LATHAM
that was found in the airing cupboard or on the bed in
the main bedroom?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
blue top found in the same place?
PETER
LAMB
yes .
MR LATHAM
a different blue top, same place?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
a blue top found in the kitchen on the work top?
PETER LAMB
yes, and two, made up of two different sorts of fibres.
MR LATHAM
that blue top we are looking at found on the kitchen work
top was, I think we will hear - like the bath mat, had
been removed from the washing line and put in the kitchen
from where it was seized. Although they look very different
in the photographs, that's TML 1 and MLF 90, can you help
with the work trousers, as they are described?
PETER LAMB
you are quite right. They do not look anything like each
other on the (inaudible) but they are identical, I can't
tell them apart.
MR LATHAM
it was just the light used to take the particular photograph
of each of those pairs of trousers makes them look very
different?
PETER LAMB
yes, they are both made from a mixture of cotton and synthetic
fibres.
MR LATHAM
the magenta curtains, where does that fit in with the
scheme of things on shedability the curtain?
PETER LAMB
this sheds very strongly indeed. In fact, on the majority
of the items that we have from Mr Huntley's house, they
all bore these nylon flock fibres. Flock fibres are particularly
easy to identify as such because they are in numbers almost
everywhere in the house so the finding of two on the top
wouldn't know whether it was direct contact or secondary
contact with something else in the house. I doubt very
much it would be primary contact.
MR
LATHAM
cardigan from the main bedroom and finally a jumper from
the main bedroom?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
so in all, we have 39 fibres. so pausing there we have
fibres found on Jessica's top, 39 of them that come from
or match fibres from a number of different items that
come either from the house or in the case of the carpet
could have come from either the house or the Fiesta?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
as we were looking a minute ago, fibres that matched both
Holly's and Jessica's top the carpet fibres going in the
other direction being found on various items in the house?
PETER LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
so what have we got in relation to Jessica's top?
PETER LAMB
taking the top and the items within the house, we have
a two way transfer of fibres between those two.
MR LATHAM
if we can move on to the bottom half of this schedule,
Holly's identical top. you see the back and front of that
in the photograph. On this occasion it is a different
type of carpet I think, isn't it?
PETER
LAMB
yes, this is the original manufacturers carpet present
in the cabin of the vehicle, very pale, grey colour.
MR LATHAM
then again could be house carpet; could be Fiesta boot
carpet, can't tell?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
those two tops we have just looked at both in the
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
the blue top from the kitchen work top, and the same work
trousers again, you can't say which of the two. one of
those curtain fibres. and again, that blue cardigan, eight
of those?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
we see some identical items when one looks at Holly's
shirt and Jessica's shirt, we are seeing the same type
of item at the bottom of both of those summary sheets,
aren't we?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
of fibres matching those items down after the bottom on
each of the two shirts?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
does that help you at all when you are looking at what,
if anything, can be defined from this fibre matching here?
PETER LAMB
again from single fibre transfers, I would not be able
to tell the difference between direct contact and secondary
transfer. It is only when you start to get large number
fibres, six and eight and such like that, secondary transfer
becomes far less likely.
MR LATHAM
if we now look at the next schedule, the third page and
the top part of the page, fibre transfers in fact in both
directions on the track suit bottoms in the bin. I think
you start with Jessica's track suit bottom. I think that
has two fibres which match the carpeting, correct?
PETER LAMB
yes, match two of them. two or one of the components of
the carpet, yes.
MR LATHAM
and one of those of that blue cardigan?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
so that's the first entry on the hard copy document we
see there, isn't it?
PETER LAMB
yes, correct.
MR LATHAM
those are fibres going to that particular pair of track
suit bottoms. then in the other direction six fibres from
it on to a yellow shirt, correct?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
and that's the one, the yellow shirt that was found in
the ottoman box in the main bedroom?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
and one on to the beige trousers found in the main bedroom?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
turning to Holly's track suit bottoms I think there are
four fibres matching the carpeting found on that pair
of track suit bottoms?
PETER LAMB
yes, and there are four different constituent parts of
the carpet.
MR LATHAM
and secondly two from the same turquoise acrylic cardigan?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
16 fibre transfers and what here again, omni-directional,
either direction, each way transfer?
PETER
LAMB
we have got single transfers but again between,
MR LATHAM
then we look at the other items recovered from the bin.
one from that turquoise cardigan ?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
two carpeting fibres on Jessica's briefs?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
within the general debris you found one carpet fibre?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
two on the duster, again from the refuse bin in the hangar?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
and one on the dishcloth so there we have transfer on
to items in the bin so that is all from one direction,
as it were?
PETER LAMB
that is from one direction, yes.
MR
LATHAM
finally, the hairs. two head hairs, here is the last chart,
you have the single, A4 chart, the last one. we start
off with Holly's Manchester United shirt in the bin, two
head hairs which matched Mr Huntley's head hair , is that
correct?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
if we look in the forensic test column of this, if we
may, on our paper schedule, each of those two head hairs
were subjected to the microscopic, high powered microscopic
examination, is that correct?
PETER
LAMB
They were and they both match.
MR LATHAM
I think the mitochondrial DNA both were submitted for
mitochondrial, but the laboratory were not able to get
a result?
PETER LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
do you necessarily get a result from head hair every time?
perform, quite often it doesn't give results.
MR LATHAM
one head hair on Holly's track suit trousers from the
bin and I think we can see from the chart that was subjected
both to your microscopic test and the mitochondrial DNA
and the result was obtained there?
PETER
LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR LATHAM
and finally two head hairs on Jessica's briefs from the
bin. Both microscopic examinations matched?
PETER LAMB
Yes
MR LATHAM
both submitted for mitochondrial DNA and one gave a positive
match?
PETER LAMB
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
so we now have the, we now go to all the summaries so
we can look at everything in the round if we may. 49 fibres
from either or both, or that match either or both, of
the shirts found on those items, ?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
39 items that match fibres from house or car from Jessica's
shirt?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
38 on Holly's shirt?
PETER LAMB
yes. bottoms?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
and then seven from the other items found in the bin?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
and 5 head hairs?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
the total if you include head hair, of 154 matching transfers?
PETER LAMB
Yes.
MR LATHAM
other than the dusters at the bottom and wondering what
those fours items on the bottom are, the 154 is the total
of the three red boxes on the right hand side of the scene.
Mr Lamb, having found those 154 transfers many of which,
when looking at individual items of clothing, were two
way transfers, what did that say to you as a scientist?
PETER LAMB
certainly the two way transfers are much stronger scientific
evidence than a single transfer, that's a transfer one
way, but within this there are transfers of many different
types of fibre, different colours of fibre and different
combinations of fibre, all of which are represented within
times which we have been able to examine. The strength
of the evidence therefore is compounded by the different
numbers and types and colours of fibres that have been
found.
MR LATHAM
if you had to put it on a sliding scale of weight as far
as your scientific evidence was concerned, in relation
to contact between either or both of these two girls and
number 5 and/or Ian Huntley, what would you say?
PETER LAMB
my conclusions from these examinations were first of all
that there was very strong scientific evidence that Mr
Huntley has been in direct contact with the clothing of
Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. There there was strong
scientific evidence that the clothing of Holly Wells and
Jessica Chapman had been in contact with both the upstairs
and downstairs of Mr Huntley's home and finally it was
moderate scientific evidence that the clothing of Holly
Wells and Jessica Chapman had been in contact with the
carpet from inside the boot of the Ford Fiesta.
MR LATHAM
with that boot carpet, it is patently not the original
fitted carpet. I don't think there is any dispute about
that, it is a piece of carpeting which has been cut to,
I say fit, it is oblong, isn't it, it doesn't fit?
PETER LAMB
It doesn't fit at all.
MR LATHAM
it is just an oblong fitting. in terms of your saying
there is moderate evidence of contact between the boot
carpet or the Ford Fiesta and those girls, if that boot,
the origins of that piece of carpeting in the Fiesta was
at least cut from a spare bit of house carpet, what qualification,
if any, would you want to place on any link between the
Fiesta and the girls?
PETER LAMB
By virtue of the carpet, if it can be shown that piece
of carpet was actually in the house then that falls into
the same category as the rest of the carpet within the
house and there was two way transfer of fibres. The reason
I have chosen moderate in this case is to show that there
is some doubt about the origin of that carpet, so whether
it was in the car before or afterwards I don't know.
MR LATHAM
before or after what?
PETER LAMB
before or after there was the contact, my Lord.
MR LATHAM
can I ask you about a pair of scissors which was found
in the boot of the Fiesta. you can see there a pair of
black handled scissors, can you not?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
those are exhibit DP 8. then you examined those
PETER LAMB
did, yes.
MR LATHAM
What did you discover about the scissors?
PETER
LAMB
caught between where the blades actually overlap, where
the blades are actually screwed together, caught in that
area there are a number of fibres and I have examined
these fibres and found them to match the constituent fibres
of the carpets; that is the carpet from the boot and the
carpet from the house.
MR LATHAM
what does that suggest to you, Mr Lamb, as a scientist?
PETER LAMB
it looks exactly the same as if you would have attempted
to cut the carpet using these scissors.
MR
LATHAM
were you aware that from the house were taken swabs of
blood spots or staining or potential blood spots and staining?
PETER LAMB
yes, I was.
MR LATHAM
indeed, I don't think you were in court this morning -
or perhaps you were?
PETER LAMB
I wasn't in court this morning, no.
MR
LATHAM
a scenes of crime officer who had been going round and
selecting what seemed to be blood spots or smears around
the house was asked a number of questions about those
smears, and a swab was taken from these blood spots and
specks?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
is there a very basic test which can be done in relation
to what is thought to be blood?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
back in the laboratory?
PETER LAMB
yes, there is, some scenes of crime officers are also
trained to do this particular test; it is a presumptive
test and looking for the presence of blood.
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR LATHAM
If you have found out it is blood is it possible to distinguish
between human blood and animal blood?
PETER
LAMB
Yes, there is a relatively simple test that can be performed
and indeed that test will also show us within reason what
animal the blood actually came from.
MR
LATHAM
are you aware of the results of the analysis of the various
thought-to-be-blood specimens taken from the house?
PETER LAMB
yes, I commissioned those tests.
MR
LATHAM
what were found when these spots thought to be blood were
examined?
PETER LAMB
some were found to be dog blood, two were found to be
you man blood and several didn't give results at all.
MR LATHAM
was there a later match as you understand it between anyone
or any people and what was found to be human blood?
PETER LAMB
yes, one of my colleagues drafted a statement to show
that there was a DNA match between one of the samples
and Mr Huntley himself and I believe one of the samples
belonged to the same DNA profile as Maxine Carr.
MR LATHAM
more particularly was any blood found to match blood in
the house. Were you aware that a number of hairs were
found out the house?
PETER LAMB
yes, I received a large number of hairs from various----.
MR LATHAM
were any of those hairs seized from number 5 found to
match either Holly or Jessica?
PETER
LAMB
no. no didn't find any that matched Holly and Jessica.
MR LATHAM
did any of the hairs found match anyone else?
PETER LAMB
some of them matched Maxine Carr and some of them matched
Ian Huntley, some of them I couldn't find a
MR LATHAM
were there any animal hairs in the----?
PETER
LAMB
there were some dog hairs, yes.
MR LATHAM
Mr Lamb, thank you very much.
(Cross-examined
by MR COWARD.)
MR COWARD
Mr Lamb, could we clear one thing to begin with? I'm looking
at the schedule headed fibre transfers on to the Manchester
United shirt of Jessica at the top of the page and Holly
at the bottom. I am then going to look at a second page
schedule of fibre transfers to and from track suit bottoms,
and the lower part of the page as well, those are the
two I'm concerned with at the moment?
MR
COWARD
the four of those, item 9 a cardigan, 5 fibres matched
turquoise acrylic?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR COWARD
the very bottom item on the same page, cardigan, 8 fibres,
turquoise, acrylic,?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR COWARD
if we turn to the second sheet, the top section we have
another turquoise acrylic, track suit bottoms and then
on Holly's track suit bottoms two more turquoise acrylic?
PETER LAMB
yes. of the schedule, bra Holly turquoise acrylic?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR COWARD
that garment is obviously a female garment so on the face
of it, it may be slightly curious and of some interest.
Could you remind us about that turquoise acrylic cardigan.
Did it, was it something special about it?
PETER
LAMB
nothing special particularly apart from the fact that
it sheds inconsistent fibres in great numbers. in fact,
the turquoise acrylic fibre was present on just about
everything we examined on Mr Huntley's home and indeed
his car. car?
PETER LAMB
yes.
MR COWARD
thank you very much. one matter you have not been asked
about is your examination of swabs taken from the seats.
You described a test to see if any semen could be detected
from (inaudible).
MR COWARD
you found none?
PETER LAMB
I found none.
MR COWARD
you did tests on the car to see if you could find any
semen in the car and found not none?
PETER
LAMB
yes.
MR COWARD
one final matter, in a sense this, I say this as a compliment
to you, when you were initially asked to look at certain
items, my Lord looking at page 4062, do you identify ten
red polyester fibres which had come from the front of
the Fiesta car by which I mean not in the boot?
PETER LAMB
No, the cabin.
MR COWARD
could be in the cabin some from the front near-side of
the Fiesta in the cabin and some from the rear off-side?
PETER LAMB
that's correct.
MR COWARD
when you did your preliminary tests you were of the opinion
that they matched the girls' Manchester United shirts?
PETER LAMB
of the test that I have done up to that moment, yes, they
did match.
MR COWARD
but very much credit to you, you continued with your testing
and when you applied further tests to those ten fibres
it became crystal clear that they could not have come
from the girls' shirts?
PETER LAMB
that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
were you able to cast knowledge, light, on what they were
and where in fact they had come from, if they are not
from the girls' shirts where they are from?
PETER LAMB
I never found a source for those fibres at all.
MR COWARD
they take you part of the way in and then it stops?
MR COWARD
thank you very much.
MR LATHAM
I have no re-examination.
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I have no more witnesses here today but I can
read three or four statements. If we move on the site
where the bodies were found, and it is volume 6, page
6003 where I start, my Lord George Chapman "I am
employed as a construction worker by SAP construction
of Bound in Norfolk. my work involves various types of
work from driving a tipper lorry to laying paving stones.
I started working for this company in November 2000. in
November 2001, the company began work at RAF Lakenheath
where all the pathways were to be broken up and replaced
by block paving. This work had been sub-contracted to
my company by Aggregate Industries of Leicestershire.
The pathways on the base were broken up and the torn up
concrete was to be taken away.
I contracted my cousin, Brian Rutterford, who lives in
Estates. Brian asked me to take the concrete to a track
off the Wangford Road, Lakenheath, which is known as the
Car. The track was pot-holed and uneven. so he asked me
to start taking it to the road end and work my way along
to the other end, near the base. I did this from about
November 2001 to about June 2002 when I finished. Brian
let me use his bulldozer to flatten it over.
He then put chalk down on the top, I don't know where
he got this chalk from. I did not go to the Car everyday.
when I first started the track was so bad I had to reverse
back along the track because the surface was so poor and
I couldn't turn the lorry round. The broken up concrete
was only taken there by myself. I may have taken some
concrete from other places but over 90% of the track was
constructed with concrete from Lakenheath. The paths at
RAF Lakenheath have now been completed. I didn't take
the concrete ... I don't think anyone else took it anywhere
either.
On Thursday, 15th August of 2002 a (so that that's the
Thursday before the bodies were found on the Saturday).
At about 4.20 pm I dumped my last load of concrete and
rubble at the Car. This was on the left side as I drove
down, and about 15 yards or so after the tree line starts.
I did not drive down to the end of the track because I
did a 3-point turn in the track near to where I dumped
the concrete. I kicked the concrete about to flatten it
a bit then I got back in my van. Six weeks before that
day in June.
Brian did not ask me to go there on this day in August,
I did it on my own initiative on my way home; the track
had really been completed in June. I very rarely saw any
people on the Car track, and I do not recall seeing any
vehicles using it. I would often sit there and have lunch
in the summer and I think how peaceful it was. I did see
the local gamekeeper there on one occasion when he first
put his pheasant pens at the end of the track, but that
was months ago."
MR COWARD
if my learned friend is thinking of reading any more statements
of a similar nature and the Jury are trying to write down
what he has to say, I wonder if it might be useful if
the Jury are, at this stage, given a series of 21 admissions
which have been drafted and are agreed, and it will be
apparent from the admissions perhaps it is not necessary
to make a detailed note.
MR LATHAM
literally I'm only going to read three or four statements,
my Lord, but I am happy the Jury have the admissions.
I would really rather the Jury concentrate on the admissions
tomorrow.
MR COWARD
my Lord, it occurs to me that once the Jury have read
the admissions it will become apparent they don't have
become irrelevant; my client concedes he drove the Ford
Fiesta down Common Drove.
MR LATHAM
my Lord in those circumstances may we (inaudible).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
ladies and gentlemen, that's enough for today, let's stop.
half past ten tomorrow morning.
Hearing
adjourned - will resume tomorrow
Page 01
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