26/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 26 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, Mr Coward.
MR COWARD
Dr Carey, I think you have now had an opportunity to look at a transcription of what I was putting to you yesterday?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
I think you also had the opportunity to consult with those who may be able to help you to come to conclusions----
DR NAT CAREY
yes indeed.
MR COWARD
----about the suggestions I put?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, I consulted with two forensic scientists involved in this case, Peter Lamb and Helen Davey. I only spoke to police officers insofar as it was necessary to allow the examination of exhibits, and in particular I examined the bath here this morning with those two forensic scientists. I have examined photographs of the bathroom, which lie behind divider 4 in the album of photographs.
MR COWARD
I think what may also be important is for you to have a mental picture of the size of the bathroom?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
you have had access to the material which gives you the dimensions of the bathroom, the layout of the bath?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, indeed and I have seen a sort of video system where you can go around the house and you can go into the rooms; I have seen that.
MR COWARD
with the benefit of that assistance, could you help the Members of the Jury with what conclusions or views you have on the outline of the facts that I put to you when we broke off yesterday?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, indeed. my Lord, the outline of facts is obviously quite detailed and therefore I have to address quite a large number of issues.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
quite.
DR NAT CAREY
I hope it won't appear I'm making a speech in terms of what I have to say but it raises quite a lot of questions----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
one way - Mr Coward could split it up himself, but whichever way you think best.
MR COWARD
it is fair to you, doctor, that you can do it in a piece as well, and if you want to come back to any particular parts to highlight them feel free to do so?
DR NAT CAREY
thank you. the first point I would like to make is the scenario raised in the transcript, which you put to me yesterday, is consistent with lack of positive pathological finding. In other words my lack of findings would be consistent with the proposed modes of death for both deceased. However, the lack of positive pathological findings is also consistent with any other asphixial mechanism of the kind raised, including one which involved deliberate strangulation of one or both from the outset.
Firstly, dealing with drownings in bathrooms in general, this is something which it is not particularly common, but as a scenario it is something we would associate with people who are severely alcohol intoxicated, who our drug intoxicated, and probably particularly people who suffer from epilepsy. In other words a tendency to have seizures. In all those instances, the drowning occurs as a solitary affair.
I would associate drowning when there is a third party present - and I have experience of this myself - with forced drowning, in other words that third party holding you under. I'm not aware of a previous case that I have had any dealing with, where it is suggested that somehow someone has drowned in a bathroom in the presence of two other persons, particularly bearing in mind we are not talking about a huge area, we are talking about very compact bathroom. So that's drownings in bathrooms in general.
There are some specifics dealing with firstly the nosebleed. Most Members of the Jury will probably have had experience either of themselves having a nose bleed, or of someone else and there is a tendency for the blood to contaminate the hand and for the blood to drip on to objects or structures where the person is present. In particular, in the sense it is stating the obvious, I would expect someone dressed in a top to bleed down on to that top.
Now, this is obviously an area of forensic scientific evidence as well in this case and it may be that the forensic scientist should give detailed evidence if that is required in relation to this, but my understanding is that this top from Holly was never found to be contaminated by blood.
MR COWARD
that is common ground?
DR NAT CAREY
such as you would expect from a nosebleed. If that top contaminated with blood went into a bath full of water, would that wash the blood out? My understanding is such clothing simply soaked in water should still test positive by the sensitive techniques used for blood testing. So even if for a minute we have the flow somehow so effectively staunched, that is by the use of a handkerchief, perhaps by something else, that nothing spills on to the floor, it would be surprising if at some stage there had not been either contamination of the scene by blood and by the scene, I mean anywhere from the threshold through the house up to the bathroom or contamination of the deceased 's clothing.
If in the unlikely event, in my view, no blood has got on to the clothing, no blood has got on to the scene, we would still have to immerse the heavily contaminated nose into the bath water, That bath water, contaminated by blood, would in turn contaminate the clothing. So one way or another, the blood stain evidence would seem to me to be against the scenario proposed of a nose bleed and of immersion in the bath water.
Now, dealing with the specifics of the bathroom itself, the mechanics of Holly falling over backwards from a sitting position on the edge of the bath towards the wash basin end with Jessica sitting next to her towards the other end, and with the defendant dishing out paper tissue, the first observation is it is all very compact for three people to be in there. Is there a realistic possibility that Holly, whose precise height I do not know but I suggest she was of average height, and within her medical records there is a growth chart and this shows that a ten year-old girl had an average height of about 140 centimeters, there is not much room for her to slip over backwards and then somehow become immersed in the bath water.
MR COWARD
doctor, for those of (inaudible) generation, could you convert 140 centimeters into feet and inches?
DR NAT CAREY
you have to divide by 2.5; I don't know if anyone would like to do that for me and give it in inches. On me, I am about 5 foot 9 inches tall - it comes to somewhere in the region of just below the knot of my tie, or the knot itself. I don't know whether the Members of the Jury have actually seen this bath. I have seen this bath and obviously I have considered the shape and size of the bathroom and as I say there is not much room to fall over backwards. It is quite a narrow bath.
You basically impinge on the wall behind; what you might expect to happen is that the buttocks would drop down into the bath, and you would effectively become wedged at the tap end. I do not see how the head could become immersed. Dealing with a detail in relation to the scenario that was put to me, a depth of 18 inches of water was proposed.
I measured the overflow on that bath, and that overflow would impose a depth of no more than about a foot, probably nearer 11 inches. so in my view, unless the overflow is in some way blocked, the suggested 18 inches does not exist as a realistic possibility. If the depth is only 11 inches, then the opportunity for the nose and mouth to be completely immersed simply through a passive accident comes, in my view, very unlikely.
I raise as a question how would the legs get over the edge of the bath if she simply has fallen over backwards into it, having been sitting on the edge? Were the legs in fact, lifted over to get her more into the bath? what about the depth of water itself? I simply raise - as questions that should be raised - what was a bath doing that deep would you wash a dog in a full bath of water? I don't know.
So that deals with the size, shape of the bath and bathroom. in my view, when you look at it from the point of view of the bathroom itself, and from the point of view of bathrooms in general, it does seem unlikely, to say the least, that a fit, 11 year old girl could have slipped into a pre- run bath of water and drowned in the presence of two others.
Again, I raise the points why no rescue of Holly? Drowning would take sometime. this is not instantaneous. The restraint, the covering of the nose and mouth of Jessica, prevented her, I would suggest, from being able to rescue her friend from the bath, if that is what had happened. The parallel I would draw is that life savers in public swimming pools are very effective in saving lives - rapidly rescuing people from the swimming pool in near drowning situations, it would be incredibly rare for public swimming pools, with properly trained life guards on duty, to ever lose a member of the public.
That deals with the drowning issue and the bathroom. In relation to the description of what happened to Jessica, I would point out, as I did yesterday, I think, that smothering, and that is what is proposed, the hand covering the nose or the mouth area of Jessica, smothering is something that I, as a forensic pathologist, would associate with the elderly or the very young - and I mean infants - or occasionally the intoxicated. Jessica was none of these.
She was a fit, conscious young girl and, in my view , the only way in which she could have been smothered to death would be through forced restraint against vigourous struggling. You can't just smother someone in mid-air sitting on the edge of a bath. You would have to either force them up against something in order to cover the nose or mouth, perhaps a wall, or you would have to put perhaps one hand behind her head and smother with the other.
In either case, given the amount of vigourous struggling anyone would indulge in when their airway is deprived of them, in either case it would be more than apparent, I would suggest, what was happening during the course of that covering of the nose and mouth. I would also not expect such smothering to be capable of causing rapid death. Compression of the neck, as I mentioned, occasionally may cause rapid death, loss of airway through covering the nose or mouth would take many seconds, and would very likely go through a phase of loss of consciousness.
Therefore, to complete the task, the nose or mouth would have to continue to be covered when Jessica had already collapsed unconscious. I find it wholly implausible that Jessica could somehow be smothered to death in an upright position. I think that completes my initial view of the various points raised in the scenario. I should have mentioned the only other area of forensic scientific evidence, the fibre evidence I think, could be (inaudible) neutral in relation to this scenario, it is neither positive nor negative.
MR COWARD
thank you very much. Could I clarify one aspect? Clearly the error is mine. On an earlier occasion, before this trial started, I made a series of admissions, which were done in the presence of the press and the admission number 6, which I made, was to the best of Mr Huntley's knowledge or belief. He is unsure where on her head or neck or face he placed his hand or hands?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
in putting the matter to you as I said, I was too specific and not accurate?
DR NAT CAREY
yes. That then raises again his issue of compression of the neck, which in rare instances could cause sudden collapse and even sudden death within seconds. But obviously if the aim of gripping the neck was to suppress screaming, it would have to be sufficiently forceful to deprive someone of the airway for that period of time. It would be an unusual way to silence someone simply to stop them making a noise, to compress the neck. If, of course, Jessica did collapse and die quite quickly, that would then mean that Holly had only been in the bath for a few seconds and I therefore see no reason why her rescue would not have been effective and for her to be quite unharmed.
MR COWARD
could I raise one question, Dr Carey, for your assistance, with regard to the condition of Holly at the time, on the scenario that I presented to you she went into the water in the bath?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
is it necessary to have a fractured skull to become unconscious?
DR NAT CAREY
not at all, no. Any substantial blow to the head could cause unconsciousness and I could not exclude the possibility that in a fall she was rendered unconscious. The only point I would make is obviously the scenario that was put to me, was that a bang could not be remembered, but a splash could.
MR COWARD
if a person is unconscious, and they fall into water, are they in the same position as the person affected by alcohol or by drugs, or in a sense are they worse than that?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, I would agree with you. That at least in as bad a condition as that, but we still have the problem of how she ends up physically in a position to be immersed and how all this happens in the presence of two other people.
MR COWARD
I will come to the presence of two other people in a moment. If one is rendered unconscious and you go into water - I will begin again. if a person is conscious and they go into water which covers their nose and mouth we all have an instinctive reaction how to deal with it, don't we?
DR NAT CAREY
absolutely.
MR COWARD
we hold our breathe, we reach for the air?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
if a person is unconscious, those instinctive reactions don't exist, do they?
DR NAT CAREY
that's absolutely true, but it would still take a period of time for drowning to take place and cause death.
MR COWARD
if a person is unconscious, do they continue to breath?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, they do but they are more vulnerable to their airway - sorry, continue to move or breath? I may have misheard you.
MR COWARD
to breath?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, they will continue to breath; they won't continue to move actively.
MR COWARD
so the instinct that we all have not to breath under water isn't there?
DR NAT CAREY
no, you will breath air in - it is dangerous to enter water and be immersed if you are unconscious, that's true. But I'm doubtful - it is a difficult thing to model, I am doubtful, with that bath in that bathroom with her in that starting position of sitting, whether it is possible for her to become immersed sufficiently for her to drown at all with 11 inches of water in that bath, because you have this problem of how do the legs get over the edge of the bath.
MR COWARD
of course there is no video film of this so one has to try to reconstruct what may have happened?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
if Holly went backwards, turning her head to the right as she loses her balance on the near edge of the bath, and banged against the wall at the back of the bath, she, her centre of gravity, is then over the bath isn't it?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
and her head finishes up at the the non-tap end and her feet naturally go in at the tap end?
DR NAT CAREY
well, she is right up at the tap end already so the feet would, if you like, get trapped under the wash basin. I mean, I'm sure I can work out a theoretical way of her being propelled into the bath such that she ends up immersed. All I can say is this when you look at the population at large, if this happens at all it must be amazingly rare. Children are running in and out of bathrooms all the time throughout the country; bath taps run or not run, children are sitting on the edges of similar baths. All these things are going on on a daily basis and yet I'm not aware of any scenario quite like the one which you raise - although I can't absolutely exclude it as a theoretical possibility.
MR COWARD
two other people present. you mentioned life guards, in the situation where a life guard is present, he has a known job to perform, to assist someone in the water, that is a different scenario?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
in the situation I propose to you, we don't have two people whose prime purpose at that instant is to get Holly out of the water. We have one who is shouting and screaming at Mr Huntley, and Mr Huntley trying to deal with her. it is a different scenario?
DR NAT CAREY
I see that, but if the whole thing is only the innocent help being given with a nosebleed, I see no reason why that goodwill should not be continued to lift her out of the bath again. It is a matter of common sense but in a sense it is a matter for the Jury. I can't give evidence on this. All I can say is that the drownings I have described in bathrooms are solitary because by definition human beings rescue one another. They may not be professional lifeguards, I suggest to you the swimming pool attendants have a much bigger problem because they have much more water of a considerable depth to get the person out of.
MR COWARD
the significant difference between that situation and this, is that Mr Huntley is being accused of something, isn't he?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
so we have an emotional element taking place in that bathroom job on the scenario?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I am sorry to interrupt, but I mean in a sense we are going to - on that line of questioning you need to put that. This is almost an argument for a Jury to assess. is this a matter for a pathologist, this particular one?
MR COWARD
I only raise it because the alternative rather more rational hypothesis of the (inaudible) have been put forward.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
he in a sense is using not just expertise as a pathologist, but speaking as anybody might speak, so I accept you have that difficulty. In a sense in the end the Jury is going to have to assess it.
MR COWARD
my Lord, common sense in a calm situation the Jury can understand. common sense in an emotional situation ----.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
again, that's argument really and in a sense, I think you would agree that your views about that are really the same as anybody else's one way or the other?
DR NAT CAREY
absolutely. although I have given evidence, whether people do actually drown in bathrooms and if so in what circumstances.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that you can, yes.
MR COWARD
doctor, thank you.
MR COWARD
can we for a moment concentrate on Holly and the scenario which has been put to you of her ending up somehow with her head under the water, when one is dealing with a maximum of 11 inches of water? She starts off at right angles to the bath with her back to the wall behind the bath?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
she loses her balance as a result of an accidental push or bang on the part of Mr Huntley?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
where would you in those circumstances expect the buttocks to go?
DR NAT CAREY
I would expect them to drop down into the bath below towards the tap end, if you like, to become wedged in a situation with the legs still over the edge of the bath, the backs of the knees along that edge, her trunk in contact with the opposite side of the bath and her head against the tiled wall of the opposite side.
MR COWARD
yes. in order for her head to end up totally under water, particularly having gone in backwards, what has then got to happen to her body?
DR NAT CAREY
she would need to rotate, but over and above that, her head would somehow need to come away from the tap end at the same time as her legs rotating round beneath that basin, and I think that basin almost prevents it happening.
MR COWARD
let's then accept that somehow that happens. I think it has been suggested to you that the head would have to come further down to the other end, not the tap end, the end we see at the front of the photograph, nearer the photographer in this photograph?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
so that the head can lie back, the back of the head on the bottom of the bath somehow?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, or the side of the head on the bottom of the bath because the nose and mouth could become fully immersed if it was the side of the head as well, but actually only just, with 11 inches of water.
MR COWARD
how far, in those circumstances, is the prone body of Holly going to be away from Mr Huntley and/or Jessica?
DR NAT CAREY
well, they are all right next door. I mean when one starts to talk about scenarios like this you start to imagine space and of course everybody is next door to everybody else. They are practically in physical contact.
MR COWARD
you of course have seen the growth charts and the type of size of Holly from the photograph; not obese or anything like that?
DR NAT CAREY
no.
MR COWARD
how difficult to grab some part of her body to pull her sufficiently from the bath, to get the head out of the water?
DR NAT CAREY
well, easy. I mean, if you have caused her to fall in the first place, I mean, it wouldn't take much to just put a hand out and stop her going in the water.
MR COWARD
let's assume she has got in the water in the way suggested; apart from Mr Huntley, you have seen a photograph of Jessica as well----
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
----who on this scenario would be sitting on the edge of the bath with Holly's head immediately below her?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
thank you. of course the side panel of the bath would have been on during the events that have been put to you in the scenario suggested. knowing the sizes of these two girls and accepting Jessica as a fit and active ten year old, who was a close friend of Holly, how difficult, physically, do you think it would have been for, Jessica to lean over the side of the bath and pull Holly's head out of the water?
DR NAT CAREY
I think it is obvious that it would be easy, but it wouldn't even need to be pulling the head out; you could pull a limb and just help your friend out of the bath that she has fallen into. it can't be an exceptional accident for a child to fall into a bath, I would suggest that what is exceptional is the proposition that fatal drowning resulted.
MR COWARD
yes. now, it has been put to you that Holly suffered some sort of head injury which rendered her unconscious----?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
----during the course of the first part of this accident. People who suffer even a serious head injury which leads to unconsciousness, does that mean they die straight away?
DR NAT CAREY
no, most head injuries will go, particularly at the level that you might sustain in a domestic environment, will go via a phase of unconsciousness and then they will either regain consciousness or remain unconscious and get into difficulty over the course of many minutes or hours of being unconscious.
MR COWARD
I mean in terms of the force available here to cause the head injury, namely a swing through at a point on the edge of the bath so the head is going backwards on to either the back edge of the bath or the tiles?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
what sort of force are we talking about there in terms of any potential serious head injury?
DR NAT CAREY
there is not much force available, but it would depend on how hard the shove was that precipitated her into that position.
MR COWARD
could I ask my learned friend to clarify with the Doctor what he means by serious head injury.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
bad enough to lose consciousness I think.
MR COWARD
bad enough to lose consciousness, if it is a head injury which leads to a loss of consciousness, if somebody is not immersed in water, what is the (inaudible)?
DR NAT CAREY
it would be very likely to have a benign outcome as many head injuries sustained by many people do.
MR COWARD
Even extending to a loss of consciousness?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, I mean, I suspect that persons present in this room have sustained a head injury sufficient enough for them to lose consciousness and they have made a good recovery.
MR COWARD
if they are in that condition and also end up as a result of circumstances with their head underwater, how long is it going to take them before they cease to breathe, through their ingestion of water or just the lack of oxygen.
MR COWARD
the lack of oxygen would take a long time, because we are capable of holding our breath for say half a minute or a minute, that doesn't cause any problems at all and you don't really get into problems with lack of oxygen for a lot longer than that. There is an effect of water entering the lungs, which I mentioned, of it getting into the bloodstream and that means that drowning could be relatively rapid and you could proceed to a very dangerous stage, perhaps within a minute or two.
MR COWARD
a minute or two?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
so between 60 and 120 seconds?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, and one has to bear in mind with that scenario, that that relates to how long it took for the - sorry, for Jessica to collapse and, if she collapsed in a short time as is possible with compression of the neck, you have most of that 120 seconds still present.
MR COWARD
to get Holly out of the bath?
DR NAT CAREY
to get Holly out of the bath, yes,
MR COWARD
alternatively, if it took any length of time for Jessica to die in the circumstances put to you, what does that mean is happening to Jessica?
DR NAT CAREY
it means she has had sustained compression of the neck or disruption of the mouth and nose. Most cases of strangulation involve asphixial changes in the face, when it is hands that cause strangulation, and those asphixial changes in the face, the little bleeds I have talked about, take some time to develop, usually quoted perhaps a minimum of ten seconds and if they are more florid then longer. Ten seconds is a long time if you are having your neck squeezed.
MR COWARD
can I return to Holly, the suggested scenario of the nose bleed, and you have dealt at some length with the product of the nose bleed; namely, the blood?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
either on the clothing or alternatively on the hand which is trying to stem the bleeding?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
or in the event of a wholly successful control of the bleeding by the use of the hand, bleeding contained within the nose?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
once the head goes into the water, albeit an unconscious head, you have said it will continue to bleed?
DR NAT CAREY
yes, and such blood that is in the nose already will get into the water.
MR COWARD
so the hand by definition drops away from the nose at that point if the person is unconscious, is that right or not?
DR NAT CAREY
On staunching the flow, yes.
MR COWARD
which would mean what in relation to this bath water?
DR NAT CAREY
it would mean the bath water would become contaminated by blood which would then mean anything immersed in it such as the clothing would itself become contaminated by dilute blood, and I should emphasise the tests used are very sensitive and I suggest would detect dilute blood on clothing.
MR COWARD
just one other question you mentioned yesterday afternoon dry drowning, involving immersion in very very cold water - near to freezing?
DR NAT CAREY
yes.
MR COWARD
tap water in August, is that the sort of water temperature we are talking about for dry drowning or not?
DR NAT CAREY
not by this mechanism I mentioned in relation to reflexes you may get what appear to be dry drowning due to fluid moving out, but that takes much longer.
MR COWARD
virtually instantaneous death because of immersion in very very cold water, is that something which in August with tap water would apply?
DR NAT CAREY
I don't think that is a realistic possibility, no.
MR COWARD
can I come back to something you said at the outset this morning, Dr Carey. you said the scenario raised with you in the transcript you have considered and given the lack of positive findings because of the condition of these two bodies, you can't rule it out?
DR NAT CAREY
exactly, I can't rule it out on pathological findings on those two bodies alone.
MR COWARD
because of the condition of the bodies?
DR NAT CAREY
because of the condition of the bodies.
MR COWARD
but equally, such findings as you have from the condition of the bodies, does it rule out deliberate strangulation of one or both of these children?
DR NAT CAREY
no, it doesn't.
MR COWARD
or indeed, sexual assault of one or both of these children?
DR NAT CAREY
no it doesn't. In fact it not only does not rule out deliberate strangulation, it doesn't rule out as a possibility that has been reasonably raised, deliberate drowning.
MR COWARD
I have no other re-examination Dr Carey. thank you very much.
MR COWARD
as indicated by my learned friend, this is the outcome as a result of the sort of detail put to Dr Carey yesterday afternoon. Before he is released from court, I have not, for understandable reasons been able to talk to him overnight. I would like five or ten minutes with him to decide whether or not I shall apply to recall either or both of the forensic scientists who dealt with aspects touched upon by Dr Carey this morning.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
that's fair enough, yes. so I think we will wait to see if Dr Carey has other things to do. we had better break now so counsel can have a word. Normally this would be done overnight but for reasons that will be obvious to you. let us know, five to ten minutes. Hearing adjourned - will resume shortly
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes.
MR COWARD
my Lord I don't need any more time. In a few moments, my Lord, I'm going to recall Helen Davey, one of the scientists (inaudible) and read one or two other statements, only partial statements rather than in any great detail. The first one is page 61265, part 1 of the statement (inaudible) my Lord. The Jury may be assisted by looking at page 14 of the chronology My Lord, this is a different topic, page 14 lists one or two events which occurred on Wednesday, 14th August. In particular the interview of Maxine Carr in the morning of that day and then the Detective Chief Inspector Beck's announcement at four o'clock in the afternoon.
My Lord, what I'm going to read relates to the previous date which is not on the chronology, 13th August but it relates to what then happened on the 14th August. Detective Constable Mason says this, it is the middle of the page, my Lord "I have been asked about the media coverage of the disappearance of the Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. I can confirm that on the evening of Tuesday, 13th August, 2002, the media became aware that the police were searching an area called Warren Hill in Newmarket, Suffolk. this search was taking place after two mounds of disturbed earth had been located by a member of the public.
On Tuesday, 13th August, Cambridgeshire constabulary issued a press release at 6.45 p.m. detailing that this search was taking place. This was the first report by the police to the media that I am aware of within the inquiries I have conducted. I can further state on Wednesday, 14th August, a recording of a personal message to any possible abductor made by DCI David Beck was released to the media. The media were aware of this personal message during the latter part of the afternoon of Wednesday, 14th August.
During this time they reported that an appeal had been made and a special hot line had been set up for the abductor to call DCI Beck. From my inquiries I can state the first time this appeal was broadcast on television was on Sky News at 6 p.m. on Wednesday, 14th. After this the appeal was broadcast on all national news and East Anglia local news bulletins, depending on the times of their individual broadcasts, throughout the evening and night of Wednesday, 14th August.
My Lord that fits in with various events on the chronology My Lord, I summarise in very short form the evidence of Jason Pain James. Dr pain James is a registered medical practitioner, qualified at London Hospital Medical School in 1980; he lists many medical qualifications but in particular he is a member of the Register of Nutritionists and has a diploma in forensic medicine. "I hold the European Community special certificate in gastroenterology."
He is an honourary senior clinical research fellow in the Department of Gastroenterology and Nutrition in the Central Middlesex Hospital in London. over the page, my Lord "For the purpose of preparing this report I have seen or referred to the following materials provided to me. Firstly, a summary of the last meal eaten by Holly and Jessica and statements covering two postmortem examinations by Dr Cary.
He then lists the food consumed by each of the girls at the barbecue. You will recollect I read those out at the beginning of the prosecution case, my Lord; unless I am asked I'm not inclined to reiterate what the Jury has already heard, which was passed on to Dr Pain James. He also was provided with samples of the stomach contents; we heard Dr Cary mention that detail when he was dealing with the postmortem examination at the end of the detail of the statement, 6161, conclusion "subject to further information, or any new evidence that becomes available, I am of the opinion that the food present in the stomach samples could represent the residuum of the barbecue meal eaten between about 5.20 and 6 o'clock on the 4th August.
Although we have no cause of death, the barbecue meal would have emptied from the stomach and thus they would have been empty in the absence of further food intake within 6 hours. the presence of residual food that originated from the barbecue food within the stomachs would therefore indicate that death must have occurred within six hours of the eating of that meal. It must be emphasised that these timings are not specific, but give indications of relevant time frames." then my Lord 6173, Michael John Douglas "I'm the land agent managing director of Eldon Estates. in my position I manage the estates and buildings within Eldon Estates.
I have to ensure all tenants have tenants' agreements signed prior to taking occupancy. I'm aware of two addresses a male by the name of Kevin Huntley, that of course is Ian Huntley's father, who has lived at on this estate. At the time I took up this post, the post started on 1st April 1997, Kevin Huntley was living at an address I can identify, 99 C (inaudible) Elliswell, (inaudible) Suffolk. my Lord, Members of the Jury, look at the scene where you will see that map which you will recognise. The tenancy agreement for the address is dated 10th May of 1996.
The agreement is signed and dated by the tenants, Kevin Huntley and Sandra Jane Brewer. In September 1997, Kevin Huntley and Sandra Jane Brewer would have moved to another of our properties. the address I can confirm as number 8, Wangford Cottage, Wangford, Brandon, Suffolk. the tenancy agreement is dated 18th September 1997. Members of the Jury, that is shown on the screen again. my Lord I will recall Helen Davey, please.
MR COWARD
you are still on oath in the case. you told us, when last called to give evidence, that as a result of your qualifications and employment in the forensic science service at Huntingdon, you have an expertise in the analysis of, apart from anything else, body fluid and the interpretation of DNA evidence, is that right?
HELEN DAVEY
that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
I think you, yesterday evening, became aware of a particular scenario which had been outlined yesterday afternoon in court and you were provided with, or had sight of, a typed copy of that scenario. Is that correct?
HELEN DAVEY
I have seen that this morning.
MR COWARD
I am grateful. I think you were asked to come down this morning and sit and listen to the evidence of Dr Cary when he was being cross-examined and re-examined this morning?
HELEN DAVEY
I have yes.
MR COWARD
I want to confine my questions to you to the issue of blood and blood staining in the light of the scenario which has been put forward. Dr Cary, in dealing with the question of a nose bleed, has put forward two events, either as alternatives or, indeed, in combination. May I take them in turn? Firstly, that Holly had a nose bleed and that during the course of that nose bleed she bled on to one or more items of clothing, either just the top or the trousers or a combination of the two, or perhaps even the shoes. all right?
HELEN DAVEY
I understand.
MR COWARD
the first source of blood arising from this description of a nose bleed; alternatively that she managed to so control the nose bleed and the flow of blood as to prevent the blood getting on to any item of clothing, but it was by definition either on her hands and/or down on to her arm, or, alternatively, confined within the nasal passages. All right?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
and that thereafter Holly was immersed in a bath of cold water for a matter of seconds and/or a short number of minutes?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
can you deal with the first event, that the blood staining got on to clothes? if the clothes were immersed in the bath for a matter of a few minutes, what would happen to the blood which had got on to the clothes a matter of minutes earlier?
HELEN DAVEY
I would assume that at that time it would be wet, so it would be likely the water would have acted to rinse the blood from the fabric but it may not do so in its entirety.
MR COWARD
I was going to ask you, would you expect it in fact, simply by being immersed in cold water for two or three minutes, even if it was wet or recent blood, you expect it to be totally removed from----?
HELEN DAVEY
probably not.
MR COWARD
if it was removed from the points it was originally on on the shirts, where was it removed to, what has it gone into?
HELEN DAVEY
it would be diffusing out into the water.
MR COWARD
the water in the bath?
HELEN DAVEY
a weak blood solution.
MR COWARD
making a weak water and blood solution?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
that if blood ever got on to the clothes?
HELEN DAVEY
that is correct, yes.
MR COWARD
if blood did not get on to the clothes, but there was nevertheless a nose bleed Holly had been unable to stem for several minutes, Dr Cary has indicated there would be a suitable quantity of blood in the nasal passages and/or on her hand?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
her head and/or hand - well, certainly the head in the scenario we have put forward, goes into the water with her still breathing for a time. what is going to happen in those circumstances so far as the blood is concerned?
HELEN DAVEY
again, I would expect blood to move out into the water.
MR COWARD
either from the head and/or the hand?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
so that leaves us, as you describe it, with a weak solution of blood in water in the bath. either from the clothes and from the body, the nasal passages, or simply from the nasal passages and in the hand?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
but at the same time what is immersed in that solution of blood?
HELEN DAVEY
the girl's body and clothing.
MR COWARD
clothing. if that happens , if you immerse either non-bloodstained clothing in the sort of solution we are dealing with here, or, indeed blood stained clothing, which is contributing to the blood solution in the bath, and you handled that clothing, you have told us you tested it for the presence of blood?
HELEN DAVEY
well, in the laboratory our procedure generally involves a very detailed search, visual search under bright lighted conditions to look for visible blood, then we do a chemical test afterwards.
MR COWARD
how sensitive are those chemical tests for the presence of blood in fabric and clothing?
HELEN DAVEY
very sensitive, such that if it had dripped the blood in a bucket of water you could get a strong positive reaction from it.
MR COWARD
did you find any indication of blood on either the tracksuit trousers or particularly the shirt worn by Holly.
MR COWARD
my Lord, before the witness answers the question I don't think the witness has yet said whether those chemical tests were actually carried out, she spoke of a visual test.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
one at a time.
MR COWARD
I thought we had.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
we are obviously wrong, you ask it again.
MR COWARD
did you do, on the shirt of Holly, the sensitive chemical tests you have just talked about?
HELEN DAVEY
yes, they were fully screened.
MR COWARD
and during that full screening did you get any indication of the presence of blood on any of Holly's clothing?
HELEN DAVEY
not on the top or the track suit bottoms but I think the shoes.
MR COWARD
I think you spoke of one drop - spot - on one of the shoes, did you not?
HELEN DAVEY
I can't be specific about the type but a small strain of blood on the back of the shoe.
MR COWARD
if in the scenario you have heard described in court this morning when Dr Cary was giving evidence , if the shirt, taking that as an example, had been immersed in the solution of blood in the bath water, what would you have expected?
HELEN DAVEY
One may not have been able to see blood staining but I would have expected to have obtained a positive reaction to the chemical test.
MR COWARD
can I mention one other matters for completeness? It is accepted that dealing with Holly, as we need to at this stage, was that night she died transported by Ian Huntley to where the body was found in the ditch, and that the clothing was cut off the body in the ditch but at the time the body was dumped that is the way it is put. all right?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
for present purposes, would you accept that there may have been some water in the ditch as well, which meant that the shirt also got wet from the ditch during the time it was in the ditch before it was cut off the body. do you understand?
HELEN DAVEY
I do.
MR COWARD
would that in any way change what you said about your expectation of detecting the presence of blood from the sensitive chemical test?
HELEN DAVEY
I would still have expected to have found blood.
MR COWARD
on that last topic, Dr Davey, we know from your evidence and certainly from other people that there was the definite presence of petrol on the clothing when eventually recovered from the hangar. it looks as if the clothing had been soaked in petrol in an attempt to destroy the identity of the garments. what effect, if any, in your judgment, might that have had on any of the tests you are seeking to carry out?
HELEN DAVEY
it is difficult to know. I am unsure as to whether indeed they were soaked in petrol as opposed to petrol on some of them in other areas. Some of them smelt to a greater or lesser extent of petrol but even the entirety of the shirt, the tracksuit bottoms, if they had been soaked in weak blood solution, I think I would still have found areas that would give a positive reaction if there had been blood (inaudible).
MR COWARD
you----
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you are speaking so fast and so quietly it is difficult to absorb what you are saying - " ... a greater or lesser extent ..."?
MR COWARD
Can you just give the answer again?
HELEN DAVEY
I am unsure as to the amount of petrol that was in the garments. When I (inaudible) them they had been completely soaked in petrol and whether it was only certain areas of garments that had petrol on them.
MR COWARD
is there any way of telling one way or other?
HELEN DAVEY
no, however, some areas were less affected than others given the intermingling of garments. if the clothes had indeed been in a dilute blood solution I would have expected to have found at least some areas giving a positive chemical reaction to the test for the presence of blood regardless of petrol.
MR COWARD
of course the matter is even more complicated because the dampness or wetness that was apparent when the clothes were recovered could be water, it could be petrol, it could be a combination of the two?
HELEN DAVEY
it could.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
do you accept the proposition that the matter is complicated, that is really two questions you see?
HELEN DAVEY
I would also state a small stain with the appearance of blood reacted with a positive reaction to the test I was using, the stain I referred to on the shoe.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
perhaps you would answer the question that was incorporated in that question is the matter complicated?
HELEN DAVEY
it is complex.
MR COWARD
and there could have been, on the clothing - all that was left was water, all that was left was petrol, or a mixture of water and petrol, given the dampness that was observed?
HELEN DAVEY
again I consider it unlikely that I would have got no positive result if they had been immersed at some stage.
MR COWARD
in any of those circumstances?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
the blood that was found on the heel, was that discovered by visual examination?
HELEN DAVEY
it was found by visual examination.
MR COWARD
and confirmed to be blood by chemical screening?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
and you were able to, in relation to that, to identify exactly where it was on a particular trainer?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
with regards clothing, are you saying that there cannot have been any blood on the clothing or is it as far as you can go to say the test that I carried out did not detect any sign of blood?
HELEN DAVEY
the tests that I carried out did not detect any sign of blood. However, the test did detect blood in a different area in conjunction with the visual examination.
MR COWARD
you would say your tests are very sensitive?
HELEN DAVEY
they are, yes.
MR COWARD
my learned friend put to you as a matter of definition, Holly would have blood on her hand, or hands, and arm. In giving the answers that you did, did you consider that part of the evidence, which might lead you to the view that there was likely to be blood detected by the tests?
HELEN DAVEY
I feel I have considered both scenarios together. The presence of blood on the garments were transferred from the hands ----.
MR COWARD
we have in effect. sorry I interrupted you?
HELEN DAVEY
also the release of blood from the nasal cavity whilst immersed in the water.
MR COWARD
we have, in fact, three potential sources of blood in the water which could have got on to the garments, haven't we? Blood which is on the garments themselves before going into the water; blood from hand or arm or arms oing into the water; and blood from the nose having gone into the water?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
you are not in a position to say what, if any, combination of those actually existed?
HELEN DAVEY
I'm not, no.
MR COWARD
so it is feasible that in fact there was no blood on the clothing and no blood on the hand or arm, because it had been caught by a tissue before it went on to the hand?
HELEN DAVEY
I would say in the early stages of a nose bleed one would raise a hand to the face and get blood on the hand that way, but then it would be possible to staunch the blood flow if you have a tissue or handkerchief and not get blood on the clothing.
MR COWARD
people who suffer from nosebleeds become familiar with the signs that one is happening.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
is that for this witness?
HELEN DAVEY
I can't comment.
MR COWARD
does your degree of certainty as to the ability of the chemical screening to detect blood differ depending as to whether you had all three, clothing and an arm and nose or two of them or one?
HELEN DAVEY
I think if there had been blood directly deposited from nose on to garment, I may have seen some visual staining, which I did not.
MR COWARD
that would be the strongest indicator to you?
HELEN DAVEY
I would say so.
MR COWARD
maybe it is a matter of logic, that that is your strongest indicator and if there is none on the shirt itself the certainty becomes weaker, and if there is none on the hand and arm, again the certainty becomes weaker. If one is only left with the residue of the nosebleed it would reduce from seeing a combination of visual blood staining and getting a positive reaction from the test?
HELEN DAVEY
(inaudible).
MR COWARD
thank you. (Re-examined by
MR COWARD
)
MR COWARD
this has to be put, not as the residue of a nosebleed, but of an uncontrollable nosebleed. That they were in the bathroom trying to stop this nosebleed which was proving impossible?
HELEN DAVEY
yes.
MR COWARD
if there was that much blood around in the area of the nasal cavities and in the head, what do you say about the blood solution in the bath if the head went underwater while the person was breathing?
HELEN DAVEY
it may be for Dr Cary to comment on that.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
well, he has.
MR COWARD
can I just ask you about one other thing therefore, it was suggested to you that what was done to the clothing later, immersing it in petrol would have somehow shielded, destroyed or whatever, any indications of blood. That is what has been put to you as a proposition. What did you find on one of the shoes which was involved in this petrol immersion?
HELEN DAVEY
blood staining which reacted positively to the tests I employed.
MR COWARD
I have no other re-examination. thank you very much.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much
{the witness withdrew}. .
MR KHALIL
my Lord, another topic for a while. I am going to read a series of statements, partial statements. the first one is Mr Fisher of (inaudible). Jack Fisher, head teacher at St Andrew's Church of England Primary school at Soham, head teacher for 12 years. Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman (inaudible) last year, year 5, came back year 6 "the caretaker of the school is a lady by the name of (inaudible).
I have been asked by the police to give details about Maxine Carr who was" ... produces a number of documentary exhibits relating to her ... "I am aware that Maxine lives with Ian Huntley, site manager at the secondary school called Soham Village College. Maxine refers to Ian as her partner. they live together in a house, an old school house on the site of Soham Village College. Maxine applied for a voluntary helper post at the school, and started helping out during the early part of this year's spring term.
She didn't have a contract or formal structure to her hours, and in general terms worked a couple of days a week. as general assistant she would work with a group of children in class under the supervision of the class teacher. She would have undertaken duties as varied as cleaning paint pots and assisting in trips, with help with literacy during term times. A general assistant worked solely with year one pupils.
Owing to staff changes in the school we needed a temporary part-time general assistant to year 5, starting at the commencement of the summer term 02. This was to work 23 and a half hours paid. Maxine took this post on the understanding we would be advertising the position. I must also add that two weeks prior to Easter this year Maxine covered as a general assistant a reception class which was four and five year-olds. as far as I'm aware, while Maxine was in the year one group she worked well and the reports I got were all complimentary.
When Maxine started the 23 and a half hours weekly paid post she worked with Peterson ... just been appointed... Maxine helped out with classes 11 and 12, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman were both in class 12. Maxine obviously is not a trained teacher and I was made aware that she did not really know the difference between being a help and getting too friendly or familiar with the pupils. The permanent position was advertised and Maxine applied. She was shortlisted for interview but was unsuccessful, simply on the basis that the successful applicant was more qualified.
I informed Maxine she was unsuccessful in her application on Tuesday, 23rd July 2002, two days before we broke up on the 25th. To clarify my comment concerning Maxine's difficulty with distinguishing between friendship with pupils and a more professional relationship with them, I would like to say she was very enthusiastic, hard working and well liked amongst the school." ". I then read the statement of Lesley Ann Baron, page 7003, employed by Cambridgeshire County Council as a midday supervisor at St Andrew's Church of England Primary school in Soham, has been there about two years, and it is her duty to supervise the year five children over the lunch break. from midday until about 1.15 daily.
In addition to the previous year Katie Hourder was in year two, so she volunteered to work as a classroom assistant. She did that in her class on a Tuesday morning between 9 and 12 midday, including a break between 10.40 and 11 and would go to a small (inaudible) for coffee. "Sometime after January 2002 a young woman called Maxine began to assist with year two on a voluntary basis. I saw her every Tuesday. She mainly worked other days I'm not sure, for three weeks in a row. I can't say the exact date for those three Tuesdays. We would have coffee together in a small room during morning break. Being the only two people there we would chat.
Our first coffee break, Maxine said she and her partner, who she also called her fiance, had moved to Soham from elsewhere. He had got a job as a caretaker at the Soham Village College. She didn't mention homes or where they were living. I have never met him. I then spoke about my daughter and how I assisted in the classroom. She seemed a nice woman, it was a good conversation and I tried to make her feel welcome as my husband is an American serviceman and I know how it feels to move to a strange town.
The second and third times we spoke in these breaks, I told Maxine that my husband was based at RAF Mildenhall and she said most weekends she and her partner would go and spend time at RAF Lakenheath watching planes from the viewing area. She wasn't specific about where the viewing area was. She did say that they always went to Lakenheath, never to Mildenhall. She said they would spend hours at a time there, but she got bored so would put the seat back and fall asleep in the car.
I was aware some viewing areas had been shut after the September 11 tragedy so I asked (inaudible). She said they pulled off to the side but again wasn't specific about where." The next paragraph, "I didn't see Maxine again until a few weeks later when she appeared in year 5 as a paid teaching assistant for classes 11 and 12, the latter of which was the class in which Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman were pupils." my Lord, towards the foot of the page "Holly and Jessica were two lovely girls who always spoke fondly of their families and seemed to genuinely love them. In the summer months the children were allowed to eat outside on the field. Holly would often sit at my feet or link arms with me." .
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I am lost.
MR COWARD
sorry the foot of -.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I know where it is, I just don't know what it is all about.
MR COWARD
just dealing with if Jessica played football on the field.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
we have already had that, another witness told us that.
MR COWARD
7020, I am now going to deal with a series of witnesses who dealt with Grimsby. I am just going to read passges in relation to, pursuant to each of them. Matthew Sean Williams, he says "A couple of years ago he met a girl named Rachel Wigfield, may not chat room, became friends and her 18th birthday fell on the 4th August of 2002. She was planning to have a celebration with some friends to which she invited me, so on the Saturday 27th July travelled by train to Grimsby." Rachel met him at the station and they went to her home in Cleethorpes where he was to stay. "Sunday, 4th August, 2002, we went to a club in Cleethorpes called "Parity", for our party, were Rachel, myself, friends of Rachel's called John and Kirsty. Rachel's parents and some friends' parents.
Once we got there between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. we mingled with other friends who were already there. They were the (inaudible). met number of people, I don't know their names, the younger one, the woman introduced an older one as her mum. I cannot recall any conversation with her but I remember they both seemed very happy. Rachel remarked she had seen the two women in the club before but didn't know their names. They remained in the club whilst we were there and did not seem to be with anybody else.
We stayed in the club until about 10 p.m. that night and we all left and went to another club called the "Exchange" nearby. We stayed at the Exchange until midnight and then we all went back to Rachel's house. I did not see the two women again after leaving the Parity." He then returned home on 9th August. on Thursday, 22nd August, he looked at a picture in the newspaper and compared it with the woman that he had seen in the Exchange public house and he recognised her and we know that to be Maxine Carr.
No dispute about that. I will then read extracts from page 7025, please. (inaudible) Jackson, (inaudible) based at *Brompton* Barracks, Chatham in Kent. On 26th July 2002 he was on annual leave from the Army and travelled to Grimsby to stay with friends. on Sunday, 4th August, roughly 6 p.m., he went into Grimsby town centre, then he went to the Parity pub to see if any of his friends were there. "roughly 8 to 8.30 p.m. I was standing in the Parity with some of my friends when I saw a girl who later introduced herself to be Maxine.
I now know her to be Maxine Carr as I have seen a picture on television and in the newspapers. Maxine with with her mum and a girl and an older man. I know it was her as I used to work at the Blue Crest doing agency work and I remember seeing Maxine and her mum there." He in due course received a phone call from his sister Lucy (inaudible.) Maxine and her mum came out of the pub, hanging out as if they wished to speak with him; they both left, said she would see me later.
Five or 10 minutes later they came back into the party. He was then speaking with another friend and they went to the Exchange Pub. "The friends who I was with all went to the dance floor and I was left talking to Josie. I remember Dave's mate Maxine who I had encountered in the Exchange earlier with her mum. Now in the Exchange, Maxine approached me and we started talking, she was asking me what I did. She told me she didn't live in Grimsby but stayed with her mum in Keelby. She said she worked in Cambridgeshire teaching kids", and they spoke further, and I don't need to read any more of that. 7117, please.
"Shelia Fowler employed by transport director of Amvale Limited, South Humberside industrial estate, Grimsby. is interviewed by officers of Cambridgeshire police in relation to bus routes and timetables of the Keelby/Grimsby route on Monday 5th August 2002. the company records state, "On Monday, 5th August, 2002, the duty GY 1 Keelby service was allocated to Mr Paul Walmsley, one of our drivers" - I'm about to call Mr Walmsley, "he perused a copy of the duty rosters, FS 1. Mr Walmsley was responsible for journeys from Keelby to Grimsby and vice versa.
Throughout that particular day the first service from Keelby being 8.05 in the morning the last journey would have been been 17.50, from Grimsby, Brighouse Gate bus station scheduled to arrive in Keelby at 18.15. During the timetable there is a service which leaves outside Keelby, CE Lambeth Motors, at 14.05 hours and includes stops at the following locations", then names Keelby Post Office corner, (inaudible) crossroads, Laceby roundabout bus stop, Laceby (inaudible) Grimsby Corner, Grimsby Riverhead bus station, terminating at Grimsby Brighouse Gate bus station at 14.30 hours.
"I supplied a timetable to Detective Constable Barnes in relation to this route." He then produces a copy of the route's description, and the route Keelby to Grimsby and vice versa for 5th August 2002. This shows the total passengers and cash taken during the date on the above route. It also shows the number of fare-paying passengers on each journey. It does not show passengers who would have free travel passes or when persons with return tickets used the service. I shall now call, please, Mr Walmsley, the bus driver at 7035. If the jury have their chronology, the green folder tab 2, the entries on page 8 with which we are concerned.
Page 01 02 03 04 |
