| Flowers in Gods Garden - Holly Wells
and Jessica Chapman - Documents |
26/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 26 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
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MR COWARD
I will call Derek Michael Johnson, please,
MR COWARD
Your full name, please, Mr Johnson?
DEREK JOHNSON
Derek Michael Johnson.
MR COWARD
you are a detective sergeant, Cambridgeshire; is that correct?
DEREK JOHNSON
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
have you been given, indeed for some time, the role of Exhibits Supervisor? .
DEREK JOHNSON
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
the Jury now knows the house was dismantled during the course of the police search over many days and they have seen the condition in which the house is to be found at the moment. after all the furniture and carpeting and loose contents, if I can put it that way, had been removed from the house, did there come a time when fixtures and fittings within the house, radiators, plumbing, so on and so forth, were gradually removed.
DEREK JOHNSON
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
thereafter things like doors, skirting boards, some of the ceiling also removed.
DEREK JOHNSON
some them, yes.
MR COWARD
some of the items were formally seized as exhibits, but after the search progressed to the extent of starting to pull the house to pieces, what happened to many of the bits of building as they were removed, after they had been inspected - where did they go?
DEREK JOHNSON
the majority of items we still maintain possession and they were formally produced seized as exhibits and put to the main exhibit store.
MR COWARD
in relation to when we get to the fabric of the building, if a skirting board was pulled off and it is then formally seized as an exhibit, where did it end up.
DEREK JOHNSON
it would remain in situ, sir, within the house.
MR COWARD
did any items go outside during the course of the taking apart of this house?
DEREK JOHNSON
Yes, sir I'm aware of a number of kitchen fittings and tiles from the kitchens, the double glazing units all were in the back garden.
MR COWARD
the back garden by then was, I think, surrounded by a secure metal fence, wasn't it, to preserve everything from interference.
DEREK JOHNSON
that's right.
MR COWARD
were you asked to go back in August of this year to see if you could find the kitchen tiles which had been removed from the walls?
DEREK JOHNSON
I was, sir, yes.
MR COWARD
were you able to find those.
DEREK JOHNSON
after a, (inaudible).
MR COWARD
were they all in one place, loose, or in a box, what were they in?
DEREK JOHNSON
I believe at some point they had been in a box, but due to the inclement weather over a period of time the box had disintegrated and the tiles were loose.
MR COWARD
were loose and exposed to the elements.
DEREK JOHNSON
that's right sir.
MR COWARD
in any event, I think you seized such kitchen tiles, ceramic tiles as you could find, is that correct.
DEREK JOHNSON
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
Mr Johnson, that deals with all I want to ask in relation to exhibits taken before we started this trial. I think a large number of exhibits were brought down to this court building so that if necessary, if they were requested, they could be produced in court, correct?
DEREK JOHNSON
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
one of those items, the bath.
DEREK JOHNSON
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
where has that been been kept since it was brought down from Huntingdon.
DEREK JOHNSON
it has actually been kept to the rear of the court, a small room that we use as a (inaudible).
MR COWARD
You had got most, if not all, of the other exhibits brought down from Huntingdon.
DEREK JOHNSON
it is all the exhibits brought down from Huntingdon, sir.
MR COWARD
when the bath first came down how was it packaged, if it was.
DEREK JOHNSON
it was packaged, sir, it was packaged in brown paper with seals everwhere, all relevant seals with double tape.
MR COWARD
I think various people have asked to see that exhibit since arrived here before the trial started, is that right.
DEREK JOHNSON
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
Has all that packaging been removed from it?
DEREK JOHNSON
it has been removed and replaced?
MR COWARD
When it was stored in the room how was it stored?
DEREK JOHNSON
Due to the small place we have in the room the bath was actually up on end with the tap side of the bath on the floor.
MR COWARD
on the floor. the other end of the bath up at the top, as it were, standing virtually against something.
DEREK JOHNSON
that's correct, sir.
MR COWARD
tell us what happened to it at the end of the last week.
DEREK JOHNSON
yes, sir. on Thursday the 20th November, approximately 13.30 hours, I came down to the Old Bailey to make a delivery of exhibits for a colleague of mine, Detective Constable Andrew Bolton.
MR COWARD
just tell us what happened to the bath?
DEREK JOHNSON
I opened the door to the exhibit store; the door caught the bath and the bath fell a short distance landing on top of a chair.
MR COWARD
did that incident at your hands cause something to happen to the bath?
DEREK JOHNSON
as I found out this morning, sir, upon inspecting the bath there was a small crack at the very, very top of the bath at the opposite end of the tap.
MR COWARD
was the bath in that condition when you brought the bath down in its wrapper for the beginning of the trial.
DEREK JOHNSON
no, sir.
MR COWARD
I am going in a minute to have the bath brought into Court and I want you to point out the damage which was caused by what happened last Thursday, you understand?
DEREK JOHNSON
yes sir.
MR COWARD
so that everybody understands that has happened after the event in August of this year. at this stage I ask, my Lord, that the bath be brought into court and placed on the table.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I will rise then somebody can tell me when that has been done.
MR COWARD
my Lord it is literally (inaudible).
MR JUSTICE MOSES
I won't----
MR COWARD
sergeant, I would ask you to leave the witness box, and make clear the damage caused by the fall last Thursday.
DEREK JOHNSON
(inaudible).
MR COWARD
my Lord I'm going to ask in due course the Jury to actually come and look at this bath, before I do that.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
anyway, he is pointing if one imagines the bath was a clock, about seven o'clock, isn't it.
MR COWARD
I am grateful. would you also point out, please, another crack we have heard referred to by two witnesses this afternoon, near the outer handle the handle closer to you at the moment. Does that run down towards the bottom of the bath. just run your finger in the direction so the Jury can see what they will be later asked to look at. so running down there. thank you. we have heard the bath when seen by scientists on the weekend of the arrests had some mastic, which was over the crack that you have just been pointing to, is that right?
DEREK JOHNSON
correct.
MR COWARD
was the mastic seized as separate exhibit, as it were, taken off the bath, and is that now in the bath?
DEREK JOHNSON
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
would you hold that up, it is within, I think, an exhibit bag but the Jury can probably see the just off- clear sort of semi-opaque mastic that was on the bath when it was in the house, is that right officer?
DEREK JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
three other things I would ask you to do, please if you have not got it now, get a tape measure. I wonder if somebody could hold something horizontally from the bottom of the overflow. Can we start by measuring the, up to the top surface of the bath. put that across there, tell us how deep the bath is from the bottom of the bath right to the very edge. 17 inches. I may be able to get somebody to hold the board at the level at the over flow, please, you may need something small use as a horizontal there, either a file or---- taking it off the bottom of the overflow, where water can start to flow into the overflow, can you tell us how deep it is to the bottom of the bath.
DEREK JOHNSON
(inaudible) .
MR COWARD
you have referred to the damage of the vertical crack from the side of the bath where you are standing . can you see the crack looking at the side of the bath?
DEREK JOHNSON
Yes
MR COWARD
And see the crack on the outside of the bath?
DEREK JOHNSON
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
would you just lift and slightly roll the bath up so you can see the hole - is there something attached to the bottom of this bath as part of the bath. .
DEREK JOHNSON
yes, (inaudible).
MR COWARD
stuck to the bottom of the bath?
DEREK JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
now, the damage to the outside of the bath - you can see it there, can you, the crack line to the outside of the bath?
DEREK JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
Does the crack line run all the way down to the chipboard or not.
DEREK JOHNSON
yes, sir.
MR COWARD
thank you. My Lord, I'm going to ask the Jury to have look at this and have a look at it now; they will need to leave the jury box.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
come and have a look at it now, and when you are considering your verdict you can always ask to look at it again.
MR COWARD
my Lord, when they have looked at it now I am going to ask it be rotated so they can actually see the chip board which is close to the area where this crack is on the outside of the bath.
MR COWARD
sergeant, if you return to the witness box. sergeant, the Jury may have noticed that there is an general sort of blackish deposit over most of the surface, the white surface of the bath now, are you familiar with that type of deposit?
DEREK JOHNSON
I believe it is used in the fingerprint process, sir.
MR COWARD
so that's the sort of material put there by scenes of crime officers looking for fingerprints?
DEREK JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
the bath we have got in the Court was actually shown, wasn't it, to somebody called Mr Harrison so he could do tests on a comparable bath, were you aware of that?
DEREK JOHNSON
I was aware of that.
MR COWARD
Did he come to the bath or did the bath go to him.
DEREK JOHNSON
I can't immediately recall however it is more likely that the bath went to him.
MR COWARD
and the purpose of the exercise was to get an identical bath to the one which is an exhibit in this case, to carry out tests on it and to see what the result of those tests was?
DEREK JOHNSON
I'm not aware of that sir.
MR COWARD
I'm not going to ask you the results of the test but that was obviously the purpose of it.
DEREK JOHNSON
yes.
MR COWARD
thank you. just one other thing when the bath. When it fell in the exhibits room, how far did it travel before it reached the chair?
DEREK JOHNSON
Approximately four and a half, five feet, sir.
MR COWARD
was it the inside of the bath that came into contact with the chair or the outside?
DEREK JOHNSON
it was the outside.
MR COWARD
the?
DEREK JOHNSON
outside.
MR COWARD
the outside of the bath?
MR COWARD
no re-examination.
(The witness withdrew)
(MR COWARD speaking)
MR COWARD
My Lord, there is a statement from a Mr Anthony Harrison who deals with the topic I raised with Sergeant Johnson. I am hoping a copy of that will be available.
MR COWARD
it is not part of the prosecution case, it is disclosed to the defence, they must do with it what they will.
MR COWARD
we will.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
are we going to get rid of the bath.
MR COWARD
yes, the bath can be removed now. Detective Constable Cronin, please. 1550, file 3, a one page statement.
(Brian Cronin, sworn)
Examined by MR COWARD.
MR COWARD
full name, rank and station please?
BRIAN CRONIN
Detective Constable Brian Cronin (inaudible).
MR COWARD
Mr cronin on Saturday, 17th August last year, in the early hours of the morning, were you on plain clothes duty together with Detective Constable Pepper?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, I was.
MR COWARD
did you go to an address in Littleport?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, I did.
MR COWARD
which is, to remind the Jury, a few miles north-east of Soham, is it not?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that is correct.
MR COWARD
and the address was what?
BRIAN CRONIN
I cannot recall, if I can see my statement for the exact address.
MR COWARD
I do not know if there is any issue? no. 61 (inaudible) I think in Littleport. what time in the morning was this?
BRIAN CRONIN
As about 4.20 a.m..
MR COWARD
was there somebody standing just outside number 61?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that is correct.
MR COWARD
I think that was a Wayne Huntley, wasn't it?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that's correct, my Lord.
MR COWARD
I think you spoke to him and then as a result of speaking to him, went to number 61, the address you were outside?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that is correct, my Lord.
MR COWARD
and did you go into the house where Ian Huntley's father was and speak to his father?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that's that is correct.
MR COWARD
as a result of that, did you go into the lounge area of the house?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, I did.
MR COWARD
who was in the lounge?
BRIAN CRONIN
in the lounge was a man, Ian Huntley, and a female, who is Wayne Huntley's wife.
MR COWARD
Claire?
BRIAN CRONIN
Claire Huntley, that's correct, yes.
MR COWARD
did he confirm he was in fact Ian Huntley?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that is correct.
MR COWARD
what did your fellow officer say to him?
BRIAN CRONIN
my fellow officer informed him that as a result of information received, he was arrested for the murder of Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells.
MR COWARD
after he was informed he was being arrested what was then said to him?
BRIAN CRONIN
he was cautioned, my Lord.
MR COWARD
in other words,?
BRIAN CRONIN
you do not have say anything, but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention something which you later rely on in court and anything you do say may be given in evidence.
MR COWARD
did he make any reply?
BRIAN CRONIN
he made no reply.
MR COWARD
Did Constable Pepper ask him if he understood the aution?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, he did.
MR COWARD
what did he say?
BRIAN CRONIN
he replied "yes."
MR COWARD
I think he, together with a number of personal items, which were in the room with him, were then taken off to Huntingdon police station is that correct?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that is correct.
MR COWARD
when somebody has been arrested, whether it be for murder or theft by shoplifting, what this the first thing that happens to them when they arrive at the police station?
BRIAN CRONIN
they are placed before the custody officer and then the facts of arrest are given to the custody officer.
MR COWARD
the custody officer then, I think, becomes as it were, formally responsible for the prisoner for the duration of that person's stay at the police station?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, that is correct.
MR COWARD
obviously over shifts it maybe, there may be variation but the custody officer is response?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, correct.
MR COWARD
can I deal with the matter this way, again, as I understand it, no dispute. He remained in custody at Huntingdon police station until 2.48 a.m. on 20th August when he was transferred to Rampton secure hospital, wasn't he?
BRIAN CRONIN
yes, he was.
MR COWARD
thank you, will you wait there, please.
MR COWARD
no further questions.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much.
MR COWARD
thank you very much, Mr Cronin
{the witness withdrew}.
MR COWARD
my Lord, I read the statement of Paul Noble "constable Paul Noble of the Hampshire constabulary. At 4.25 am on Saturday, 17th August of last year, together with a woman Detective Constable Claire Harris, and other officers and I went to the holiday Inn Hotel, Impington, Cambridgeshire. I went to the reception desk, identified myself to the night receptionist, I asked for a master key to room 3 84 and a key card was provided on a large bunch of keys. We then attended room 384.
The key card was tried several times but did not allow access so I knocked on the door. A female voice asked who is it and I replied, Maxine, it is the police, open the door. She opened the door. We entered the room and turned on the lights. The female was dressed in a white dressing gown and she had on under her dressing gown, a blue T shirt and grey trousers, the bed appeared to have been slept in.
They identified themselves and Maxine Carr was asked to sit on the end of the bed. Woman Detective Constable Harris then said to Maxine Carr 'Listen to me, I arresting you for the murder of Jessica Chapman and the murder of Holly Wells.' Woman Detective Constable Harris then cautioned her to which she made no reply at 4.34. Woman Detective Constable Harris took Maxine to the bathroom with Woman Detective Constable Ford to search her. I remained in the bedroom.
She was taken to Thorpewood police station at Peterborough. my Lord, in a further statement, 7082 A, Paul Noble says this "I wish to add the following, after her arrest and caution, Maxine sat on the bed in her room and was silent for a period of time. The only comment she made at one point was, 'You just said I was charged with murder?' Woman Detective Constable Harris replied, "No, I said you were under arrest, not charged.' Maxine Carr said, 'They are not dead, though, how do you know they are dead?'
Detective Constable Noble said, 'It is not in your interest to talk to us at this moment." She was reminded she was under caution and there was no further conversation." My Lord, we now move on to the interviews of Maxine Carr. I am going to invite my learned friends to deal with those. I will give this indication by process of agreement. It has been possible to edit those interviews. All of them are the result of taped interviews from which full transcripts were retained.
It is agreed between prosecution and defence that the Jury do not need to be troubled by the entirety of what was said, that what both sides, as it were, wish to be before the Jury can be put before the Jury in edited form. It will save some time although I have to say the transcripts are still quite lengthy.
MR KHALIL
I think Detective Constable York can be called to assist, the grey folder tab number 7.
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