26/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Wednesday, 26 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.
Page 01 02
03 04
DAVID YORK, sworn
DAVID YORK
I am acting Detective Sergeant 946, Cambridgeshire Constabulary, currently stationed at Wisbech, my Lord.
MR KHALIL
you were one of a number involved in interviewing Maxine Carr, is that right?
DAVID YORK
I am, yes.
MR KHALIL
you are going to be provided with a transcript, the summaries of some of those interviews. They were ultimately tape recorded; is that right?
DAVID YORK
that's correct, my Lord.
MR KHALIL
transcripts prepared?
DAVID YORK
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
And they have now been reduced to this volume, date time and place of the interviews recorded?
DAVID YORK
they are.
MR KHALIL
as we see on the first sheet we can pick up there, Thorpewood Police Station, 17th August, starting at 11.41 and finishing at 12.05.
DAVID YORK
that's correct.
MR KHALIL
a number of minutes and interviewing officers named. Would your Lordship approve if the officer read the questions and answers?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
you read the whole thing - it takes far too long the two of you reading. If you are tired one of your assistants can take over. We can all read fast too. The only problem reading all this out to make sure we have read it, but you will be able to read it again in the Jury Room. But it has to be publicly read out ... if there is anything wrong Mr Khalil will be corrected.
MR KHALIL
officer, if you want to sit down you can do. "Interviews being tape recorded may be given in evidence if your case is brought to trial. In interview room at Thorpewood Police Station, Peterborough, 17th August 2002, time by my watch is 11.41 a.m. and the Detective Constable 946 David York, okay, my colleague. My name is John Taylor. I am a Detective Constable. give me your full name and date of the birth, please?
A.
Maxine Carr, my date of birth is 16/02/77.
Q.
Do you agree there is no-one else present in the interview room?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Before the beginning of this interview, I have to rewind you are entitled to independent legal advice at any stage in person or by telephone. Do you wish to speak to a legal advisor now?
A.
No.
Q.
Or have one present during the interview? You are shaking your head.
A.
No, sorry.
Q.
I know the video of yesterday, we are not videoing today can you give me any reason you don't have one?
A.
I have not got anything to hide, nothing.
Q.
Okay, right. So long as you know if you want one at any time you can have one, okay?
A.
Yes.
Q.
At the end of the interview, I will give you a notice which explain what happens to the tapes and how, if you need to, you can get access to them, all right? I remind you of the caution, which is that you don't have to say anything, okay, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court and that anything you do say may be given in evidence. that's quite an important thing.
A.
Yes.
Q.
What we call the caution you have perhaps heard of it before, you perhaps watch The Bill I don't know, do you understand what it means?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Do you think you could tell me what it means so I am happy you do understand?
A.
I have got to say everything, because if I go into court I can't bring things out I have not already said because it may be held against you?
Q.
Thats right if you don't. okay your right is you do not have say anything at all but if you do remember something, something can go against you at a later stage if you don't change your story, okay?
A.
Okay.
Q.
Obviously anything you say here can be used again you?
A.
Okay.
Q.
All right, well Maxine as I am informed by the custody sergeant you want to talk to us?
A.
Yes.
Q.
anything you want to say to us? I gave an interview, give an interview. The interview I give I wasn't in Soham on 4th August. I wasn't in Soham that Saturday, 3rd August, I wasn't in Soham on the Monday either. I came back to Soham on the Tuesday. I was actually in Grimsby. Tthe reason why I told the police that I was at home was because my partner, Ian, he was accused in 1998 of attacking a girl, raping a girl. It went to court, he was put in prison and a bail hostel or whatever, then the police, after so many months, came up with this video tape with him in a nightclub at the time it was supposed to have happened, and he was acquitted and he had a nervous breakdown and everything else.
When I found out he was the last person to see them at that time, speak to them, I just didn't know what to do. I mean all my family can vouch for me; they have been telling me that, telling me you know she was in Grimsby, so I had to tell you that, and even Ian has told me to tell you that. he told me yesterday when he was being held at some Holiday Inn place.
Q.
Sorry - he told you to tell us what?
A.
Just to tell the truth. because it was me, he said, you know, you have nothing to, you have not - not done anything. I just wanted him to, for them not to know about it because I have been so many times in the past and they found out something and all of a sudden they are charging you with something you have not even done, I know you police and - he just hasn't done anything.
Q.
Do you want tissues?
A.
I'm fine. Sorry if I wasted time. I wanted to tell the man yesterday, when I told you about Ian and what happened to Ian before, he just doesn't do anything like that - I mean he rang me on the Monday, he told me he had been out all might searching with the policeman, he rang me at the weekend. I have an eating disorder; he rings to make sure I eat when I'm not around. he rang me on the Monday, he said he had been searching in the afternoon.
I was at my grandad's with my uncle and auntie. Then he rang up but he told me the names of the girls that had gone missing and he had seen a picture of them and they had been round to ask about me. What I put in the statement, all the things he said to me are true, apart from the fact I wasn't there.
Q.
So you are saying what you told the police is based on what Ian has told you?
A.
Yes.
Q.
What about what happened that weekend?
Q.
When did you decide to actually lie.
A.
the first day he rang me on the Monday. he was in absolute tears, he was the last person to have spoken to them, the last person to have seen them, that's what everyone was saying and he said I'm going to get fitted up again like I did before. It took the police four months to come up with this video tape that they had all the time. Then he went to a bail hostel, had a nervous break down and I just couldn't see him going through that again, because I know he had not done anything like that and didn't want him to go through that again- being interrogated and having it thrown at him.
Q.
Okay, are you all right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
I didn't lie because I wanted to protect him from you lot, not in anything to do with the girls. I wanted to protect him from having all his past thrown back in his face.
Q.
Did you tell him you were going to lie for him? You are nodding your head, Maxine, are you all right?
A.
Yes, sorry, yes.
Q.
When did you tell him that?
A.
When I got back on the Tuesday, because he wouldn't have any of it and then----
Q.
You say he wouldn't have any of it?
A.
He wouldn't have any of it. He wouldn't have me saying anything, we were so upset then the police officer came round, a lady, and I don't know where she came from. When she came round he took me into another room and then it just, then I collapsed. Ian said to me when I come out I said I told him I was here. all the details he told me, I told them the only thing I said that is that. If it's in the bath and I weren't in the bath, I weren't in the house, probably a lot really, but you know.
Then he sort of went into well, well you told the police now what about the next time they ask you a question, and the next time they ask you a question and it just spiralled, late last night Ian said to me when we got to Holiday Inn he said they're going to arrest us. He said my dad has been on the phone to me, they are digging your garden up, your on the news. You have been said you have been arrested on the news or something. This is what he got from his family. He said now if you get arrested Maxine you tell them the truth. you tell them you weren't in Soham. you tell them where you were.
Q.
That is what...
A.
Yes.
Q.
do you want to tell us where you were then, starting with Saturday morning, what happened?
A.
Saturday morning half 6, 6.30, Ian had to work Saturday and Sunday because there had been floods that weekend. He was site manager, he had to go in and help clean up and sort the floors out and that for cracks. To come in he took me to his dad's at half six, well we left our house at half 6, he took me to his dad's for 7 o'clock, his father and his mother were going to Grimsby for the day and I was. I had arranged with my mum to go and stay for the full week until the Friday.
Ian was going pick me up after work on Friday. But it didn't work out like that. I stayed with my mum. I went out with my mum on Saturday night, went out with my mum on the Sunday night. saw my grandad, my auntie and uncles on a Monday and my niece on Saturday. When he rang me on the Monday I was so het up because I just thought these two girls I know have gone missing. I just couldn't calm myself then.
I said to Ian, I want to come home, I can't stop here. He said well I can't come for you, he said, until tomorrow, you know, at the earliest sort of thing to get to you. He came and got me around lunch time on the Tuesday. we got back, it were late tea time-ish and all the press and everybody was outside.
Q.
So he couldn't come and a get you on the Monday?
A.
When he rang me it was in the afternoon when he told me who they were. He said he had been out searching for some children in the morning. It weren't until the afternoon, I was at my grandad's until quarter past five, and it would have been about half four when he rang me and told me that he, they were girls from my school and they were the girls he had spoken to. He gave me their names, and I went home and went out searching, because he rang me that night.
He had been out searching with the police again, showing them round the college and everything. right. The first time he could come for me, well, he arranged with one of his other caretakers, he said I have got to pick Maxine up, can you cover for me until I get back, she wants to come home and I wish I hadn't.
Q.
So you got back to Soham, he came to pick you up?
Q.
What time did he arrive on the Tuesday?
A.
Well, my mum went to work, had to go to work at one o'clock, and Ian gave her a lift, so we would have got there about 12 o'clock. We had cups of tea and that. He told me what was happening with the press and everything. We had teletext on and he was flicking through teletext then he took my mum to work, said goodbye to my mum, and we just came straight back.
Q.
Right. So at what time did you get back to Soham?
A.
I would say after four, just after four
Q.
How long does it take for this journey?
A.
I don't know what the journey or distances are. We stopped for a coffee just past Horn Caple to get a drink and go to the toilet. Sat and had our drink, didn't take that long really to get home. I picked some food up on the way back, because I hadn't got any food in, Ian had gone shopping on his own of the with me not being there. So I needed stuff for myself, when we got to back it was just press and he was just out all the time with police officers.
Q.
Okay, whilst you were up in Grimsby, you say you visited a lot of your family? yes, my friend thought I was going to see her on Tuesday, I was supposed to have gone to see her on Tuesday morning, meet her in town, and Ian had to ring her and tell her what had happened down here and I couldn't meet her. I was, he was going to come and pick me up. I was with my mum, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday morning. my mum went to work Monday dinner time for one o'clock. I caught the bus to Keelby which is where my grandad lives, the village, and I was there for, what was it, two, no, I caught the 25 to, I would have got there for two o'clock.
Then my auntie and uncle turned up just gone four, and my other uncle turned up quarter past four, because I think he leaves work and gets home for quarter past four. It was just talking and that, just talking and that, was when Ian rang me and told me the girls had gone missing. The girls from my school. He was quite anxious because he said they were the girls he had spoken to. He filled me in on things, how you were and all of this, and he said he, until had seen pictures of them he didn't know who they were. So then I was on Teletext and grandad's trying to find out where they had gone, you know, what had happened, sort of thing. That is it. Just waited until he came to get me on Tuesday.
Q.
Go on?
A.
I was going to say -
Q.
You say they were girls from you school?
A.
Yes
Q.
Did you used to work there then?
A.
I was temporary general assistant at Holly and Jessica's school.
Q.
Do you know the girls?
A.
Yes, not well, know them as to talk to at school.
Q.
Were they ever in any of the classes you taught?
A.
They were in my class, they were in my class, I was in year 5, I started as a volunteer in the school. Ian had a word with head teacher, you know, my partner would like to work with the children - get her to come in and---- (break in transcript)
We'll pay it, would be, it would appear two and a half weeks before the Easter holiday, then when that was over, the lady came back, he said, 'We have got a (inaudible)'. he said, 'Will you stand it?' so I did. 'That was where I went into class 11 and 12, Holly and Jess in 12.' then stated she saw the mother over the weekend, 3rd and 4th August, saw next-door-neighbour, the next-door-neighbour on both sides came round and said, 'Hi, Maxine',
Q.
What are those neighbours names.
A.
God, Danny I don't know what his last name is. He lives the right hand side around the lady next door? Marion, Steven, and a load of kids, I only know them because they pop their head over the wall and things like that, they saw me and went 'Hi Maxine how are you doing?', and that. You did see Ian when he came to pick me up on the Tuesday as well? Marion did, Marion did, yes. I was talking to Danny quite a while on the Saturday, because he came out with us actually, me and my mum for a drink."
Carr described which members of her family she visited over that weekend, states she both sister and brother-in-law, and she went to her grandfather's house in the (inaudible) road Keelby on the Monday. States she was with her grandfather from two p.m. until (inaudible) and her aunt and uncle arrived and were still there when she left. the bus driver, yes. 'What did you say to him?', 'Well, I asked- I spoke to him on the way to Keelby. I asked him why the bus had changed.
I tried to get the bus early in the day, 25 to 12 and missed it and didn't know they had changed the bus company. I was looking for an (inaudible) not in Appleby's any more it is a different bus, is it? yes, that's progress isn't it. yes, I don't know then'. When I caught it in the afternoon I saw people from Keelby, saw that I noticed from Keelby and said 'Yes, its a different bus now', and I got on that and asked how long had it been this bus company, and he said the other bus company and gone bust, been bought out.
Q.
Do you remember which bus company it is now.
A.
I couldn't tell you, it is in the same place as Appleby's was, that's (inaudible) Brighouse Gate in Grimsby. yes. Appleby's about now changed to this company. I don't know, this is what happens, isn't it? I think he worked, he worked for Appleby's but we have been taken on by this man. Asked what time, what time I wanted to come back and I thought there might be a bus at four o'clock in the afternoon because there normally is, it being summer holidays and that with kids.
He said "The next bus is 27 minutes past 5, said he was looking out for me. So I was the only person on the bus all the way back." "27 minutes past five?" "yes." "that's the bus you caught then? to come back?" "yes, the last bus." "you were the only one on it you say? the only person on the bus?" "I was talking to him, I sat on the front seat and we were talking about, talking about the girls actually, we was talking about where I come from". He said "Whereabouts do you come from, you are not from round here." I said "I come from near Cambridge, I said I live near the village where they have gone missing", and he was rabbiting on how he never let's his girls out of his sight, how he supports Liverpool, and he was talking about Arsenal and Man United and Liverpool.
He said he used to work for (inaudible) the old bus company in town, treating them like dirt so he was glad he has got to this one, feels so much better now I know at I'm talking about." It is much easier anyway shall we have a break now? I'm not bothered. I don't think it will hurt anyway, and I think perhaps you can me tell something please? can I. can you tell me something please, that lady who came and got me this morning she said I was, I don't know what, I can't remember what she said.
Q.
You mean when you were in the hotel?
A.
Yes, she said, I was arrested for murder.
Q.
Murder, are they dead, can you tell me that, please?
A.
We don't know the answer to that question, Maxine. If we knew the answer, well, why did you say murder of somebody if they are not dead?
A.
Because I think that's what the police suspect has happened, all right."
MR KHALIL
We don't need more of this other than they finish it off the next interview, at 19.59. (inaudible) as previously. Now Lloyd James, the solicitor, is present. Maxine Car identified herself again, Lloyd James, duty solicitor, with Lewis James, solicitor, Peterborough. They agreed they were the only people there with the officers. She is reminded she can speak to Mr James as she wished and then on page 11 reminded of the legal position are you ... you understand that still ... I do. had a bit of discussion. worked way up to ... this morning. then deal with further formalities.
MR HUBBARD
can I suggest half-way down page 12, my Lord.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much. they are all formalities.
MR KHALIL
all formalities until the bold print in page 12, details, family history and background. okay.
Q.
What about Ian? when did you first meet Ian Huntley?
A.
I met him on Saturday night in Hollywood night club which is not there any more, it was Hollywood night club February, I can't remember the exact date, in the tens anyway, that was 1999, February, just over 3 and a half years ago.
Q.
Yes. you had met him in a nightclub?
A.
Yes, we hit off. yes, that was it. moved in after four weeks moved in. yes.
Q.
How long later?
A.
Four weeks.
Q.
Four weeks, love at first sight then?
A.
For me, maybe.
Q.
Right, I - okay. Nobody introduced you then as such?
A.
No. We just sort of met.
Q.
Were you out with your mates that particular night?
A.
I was out with my friend, I happened to sit down, his friend was sat next to me, my friend saw me sat next to a man and came running between me who are you, who are you? Ian came back up and he was not too happy, oh God, not women after us, and didn't want to come out that night. He doesn't like night clubs ..." Details the history of her relationship with him.
Q.
what happened to him?
A.
What happened to him? yes he was going out with a girl, it wasn't anything major or anything like that, somebody who had a baby to him. They had split up and it was just like ....
Q.
Right what was her name. Katie Weber. is that all right, Katie Weber and I don't know they broke up or something. Now I suppose just gone out on the town and met this girl and the then he didn't want, you know, didn't want it to go any further. Then the next thing she got in touch with the police and told them she had been assaulted, they had the evidence, sexual evidence (inaudible).
He was sent, I don't know, went to the Bouls, what is that, a prison? Obviously up your way, Leeds way or something. Then he got let out to a bail hostel in Scunthorpe. His mum was going up there all the time sorting things out for him. Then all of - after a few weeks this evidence came up this CCTV evidence came up for him being in a club with a load of people at the time that she said this occurred so he was then acquitted.
He was then acquitted." "it went to court that evidence came out at court?" "yes. that's what acquitted him. that's what acquitted him." "do you know this girl girl's name?" "I don't know it, Ian knows it he has never mentioned her name." "I don't suppose he talked about it too much?" "no, when he got out all his friends and everybody else rallied round him and everything, but it was this girl, this girl has a baby to him whose (inaudible) that was it, she wasn't having anything to do with, my oh I see grand daughter, he has never seen her again" - blah blah blah - "and she was forever ringing the press up and saying, 'you know, you shouldn't be around here', and all this, even though he got let off."
"does that bother him?" "it does bother him he wants to see his daughter." "does it bother you?" "Only when he has been labeled for something he has not done and people are still hanging round his neck, a stone round his neck, he has to carry that through his life." "Do you know if he has been in any trouble with the police?" "he has not been in any trouble, apart from that as far as I know." "Going back to you and when you first went, what soft of thing did you do? Did you go to the airbase?" (break in transcript)
"But if you put two of them in front of me I wouldn't say which one is which. I only know them because Ian has taught me, Ian is into planes. Yes his dad. He wanted to be in the air force but he got in the air force, he passed all exam and everything but they did him on his medical because he has asthma. I didn't want to leave my family, you know, sort of thing. You can stay here, you just can't stay where you are if you want to be with somebody so that's it.
He applied for all these jobs, he applied to one of the colleges and we came down. I went with him to the interview, sat outside like. then Mrs Bryden,the lady in charge, she invited me and showed us all round the house in the college an everything, she was really impressed with Ian, and he went for an interview. She wanted somebody young, she didn't want an old caretaker.
Q.
Yes?
A.
He went for his interview, I was still, I was back up north. But he went and came down for his interview and like rang up and said, I don't think it's gone very well, five on the panel, all looking at me and I have just blown it, I know I have. I said don't worry about it, you know. Come home and it might not be as bad as all that. I didn't really want to move at that time. I myself felt, I was half and half I don't care if you don't get it. hoping he didn't get it sort of thing, yes?
Q.
yes?
A.
Then, the principal rang and said, is Ian back home? I said no he should be home in about half an hour, 40 minutes, I said. She said, oh right, I will ring back, didn't sound happy or anything like that. I thought, oh he has not got it. Ian walked in the door, I turned, he is panicking, the phone rings, Mrs Bryden - you have got the job. We want you down as soon as possible.
Transcript edited by Sky News
BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
(Talking about prtevious caretaker) I don't know if I can say. you can say whatever you like; he got suspended for messing around with young girls at college, did he what, do you know about that. just you know what Mrs Bryden had said, that he was, he had girls and boys going in and out of his house at all hours of the morning. Those people reporting on him saying there was girls sneaking out of his house at 5.30 in the morning and stuff like that. He was on his own ... you know, there was always fallings out and everything. Oh right. He has a son, and daughter as well. and they suspended him, somebody's parents came forward and said he has been messing, you know, giving money to my (inaudible) used to give money to them in the playground and cigarettes to them in the playground and all sort of stuff.
Q.
Not the ideal school caretaker then?
A.
No, he was everyone's friend sort of thing.
Q.
Yes?
A.
So they suspended him. while they looked into it his wife left him, moved out somewhere into Soham, took the kids with her, that's when it went downhill really.
Q.
Did he get done by the police?
A.
Don't know whether he did or not. everyone has told the police officers.
Q.
Yes?
A.
I think the school's got rid of him, I don't know if just because they had been told by parents, whether he had been charged by police or not, they didn't ... "said they would break his legs if he went back to Soham?" "that's the attitude, which is why I'm not looking forward to coming back to Soham." "not exactly freedom of the city was it?" "no." "you moved all within a few days, get the house, with the job as I understand it?" "Yes, couldn't move into the house straight away.
We moved all our stuff into one room in the house. It needed so much work doing to it because he was he was a caretaker but he had not done anything to his house." He was a caretaker but he didn't take much care?" "yes, the house was just- it was a dump really, garden growing up that building, bricks and everything all over the place. All the floors and everything needed doing." "what had he been doing?" "just concrete. Nothing on top of the floors." "no carpet?" "no, all his, all the work tops that's in our house now, the school had to cut corners and that they used most of them and he just got them on the floor with his food, nothing on the walls at all."
"what have you had to do to make it liveable? you have to have the place looking just so won't you?" "yes, well, when they finished with it when the guys finished with it, Murphy's the contractors they painted it all magnolia all the way through and white so they decorated. we decorated the kitchen and the living room and that and we are supposed to be decorating the hallway. I have done the little toilet and that. I'm going to work my way up." "you say you have done that? is that your job that you have been designated have you?" "no, Ian decorates the paper I'm not (inaudible) to put the paper up. Its up to Ian."
"Is that right?" "no I put a bit slosh way on a bit of a mess of it. he likes to have his hand in things like that." ."Sounds quite big house." "still filling it really. What was this furnishing like?" "two people, fine." "we have got everything, every room we need done, like the spare bedroom, little spare room downstairs Ian wants as an office. we want to get that done. Ian has got an office at school anyway so he is not that bothered really. We are just sort of biding our time."
"I suppose you are a bit limited to what you can do because it is not your house is it, it is rented or part of the job deal. pretty good, pretty good. as long as you are doing it, not going to paint bright blue and yellow. I suppose if you are adding to it rather than taking away from it?" "yes" "is there anything you have planned to do in the future. What was the next thing on the agenda?" Hall, stairs and landing. painting, what about things like new bathroom and new kitchen. We'll need a new bath now.
Q.
New bath, why is that.
A.
Sadie broke it.
Q.
how did a dog break a bath?
A.
she was about 8 and a half stone.
Q.
What sort of dog is it.
A.
German shepherd. they are big. she is big. we have, they are not big, fat. fat - I see well, Ian says it is fat - everybody else says she is, you know.
Q.
Could she break a bath - I'm intrigued?
A.
no, she went when she got, she got out on the sun and did, was all messed up, he went to put her in it, she scrambling about like that, and it has cracked it, that side, it is only a plastic thing. I was, couldn't say - it is not one of those big enamel baths. no, just new, new in, it is new in, you know, we put in the ... since you have been in. it was all a new bathroom and everything. oh, right yes. she has gone and broke it. so we have got a sealant so can come round and put a new bath in for us.
Q.
how long ago was that?
A.
That was a Sunday, that was a Sunday, August, the Sunday. the Sunday.
Q.
Oh right, so well, you weren't there. so this is what Ian has told you, is it.
Q.
Yes. right. okay.
A.
Sorry, I was sort thinking through that. he didn't tell me on Sunday she had broke the bath. I said where is the lights gone, where this light gone in the dining room, because there was a great big round ring around the lights like water or something that had come through the ceiling.
Q.
So - split bath.
A.
Yes, it has seeped, come through down (inaudible) into the ceiling and all the carpet and everything. so we had to have all the windows open and try and dry it out.
Q.
What sort of state was Ian when you got home on the Tuesday?
A.
Lights - can't put them back up, not going to touch them, I was going to say you have to be very careful with water, don't touch wires and blah blah blah and all that. Yes. Just wires sticking out of the ceiling and the bath sealed with solvent from work.
Q.
Had he done that before you got home as well?
A.
No, he had just done that, just done that recently.
Q.
what, between you coming home and now, sort of thing really?
A.
Yes. yes. I said to him, you are going have to get done, yes, you can't leave that, that seeping through all the time and you get (inaudible) in the bottom of the bath yes, not much. it is like an inch at the side.
Q.
I see, yes.
A.
You know, the bottom where the crack starts.
Q.
So I presume Sadie was being bathed, was she?
A.
Yes, the silly little bugger. she is in season at the moment, adamant to run away.
Q.
I see. whatever, I mean, Ian when I'm not there, he does loads of things with the dog, put the dog out, do all that but when I am around I'm not doing anything." "it is your dog then?" "yes" "Your dog sort of thing. go on many walks, dog walks again or is it just down to you when you are there?" "we both sort of like if he is around then he takes her, takes her on the school field. but I take her normally. Take her across the field and back. Go on to the school field. then there is like proper walk ways through across the fields and down. like (inaudible) walk they call it in Soham."
"Yes I have seen signs of that." "actually I actually got Ian out on Sunday to come with me. He said you don't come across here I said I do. you are not coming across here no more you go across like two fields and a railway line and another field and it joins the road and into a field full of cows and then another railway line coming back round the other side. Then he says there is no way you are coming down here on your own, why not? because there is all fields growing up like that.
Nobody around." "secluded?" There is all like fields and railway line and another field then he gets this road and there is nothing on this road except like derelict house, barn things where they keep feed and stuff so there is never anybody on there. Around the other side is like gypsies in the field." A new tape, and continue after cautioning her. "you probably told this to people already, what do you remember about Holly and Jessica?" "Jessica. she is sporty, very sporty. She used to do swimming when I was there, had to be a survival course. They had a swimming pool in the school. She swims at Ely. Maybe there doing flips and everything.
Holly is good at swimming as well, always a brat always chatty. Just Jess, she is like a little mouth. (inaudible) agree you know, shut up Jessica for goodness sake. Sometimes she just gets little bit carried away, will be stood there, stood with her hands on her head and tell you her to support, that's punishment you still carry on. Holly , I don't think she will like getting told off or anything like that. She is very good, Holly. the two obviously sound a bit different, personalities, but got on well together.
Holly tried to be there at the same as Jess, tried to be mouthy and things like that but she's just looking at her. She is just, I mean just look at her you know she's not that kind of person. just like a little doll. I said to anybody, she's just like a little doll. I like I said to the other police officers on the last day , I mean Jess was in the (inaudible) wherever she has gone and they were allowed to bring toys or games or whatever everybody else brought puzzles and stuff like that there was Holly with a stuffed toy thing like with this all day, cuddling it, cuddling it all day. It really hit home how young they are. I suppose a small town like Soham you see a lot of school kits around town anyway, do you?
A.
Yes, I never see, like I said to you, I said to the press and the police, I never seen Jessica and Holly together out of school. Always seen Holly with Natalie Park and Jessica with Sean Flan but I have never seen them together. I seen Holly quite a few times, she comes to majorettes on Tuesday night. Her and another Jenny do majorettes and competitions and stuff. when I found out I had not got the job on the Tuesday, Tuesday night, (inaudible) really sorry you didn't get it and all that. We went and was looking through and watching them doing the - Holly was like, go away.
She was throwing it up in the air and going, shall we put her off so we (inaudible) her throw the thing. She was there with this button thing throwing it up and when she got out she come, you are putting me off, and all this I said to her. What she said (inaudible) 'You don't look very happy.' I said, 'I didn't get the job, Holly.' She said what a (inaudible) you didn't, sort of thing. Then her mum shouted her. She gets in the car and goes, you will come to the school won't you and that, and then she had been working on the card then.
Q.
on what, sorry.
A.
This card. card, what - it is a piece of A 4 paper I got. she has folded in half. She made one for Mrs Pederson as well. "see you around soon" and stuff like that, and a little poem at the side saying, "I will miss you, miss you a lot, love Holly."
Q.
Right, when did she give you that then?
A.
She gave me that on the, I think it was the last day of term she brought it into school.
Q.
She made it at school right?
A.
Mrs Pederson said she is being, has been busy all morning doing this. I was like - what is it. She came with these chocolates, gave me the chocolates with this card. sometimes they would bring things in, I think, don't they, for teachers.
Q.
Yes, yes. she gave it to you on the last day. there is an lot of kids brought candles and all sorts, (inaudible) things, one made a cracker and put a Milky Way in the middle of it. Cracker. Made a like Christmas cracker. yes, made out of toilet rolls and wrapped it in newspaper and done it at the ends. when I got it I think his mum had wrapped it up. He said, what did you get, miss Carr, I said I got a Milky Way, you weren't supposed to get a Milky Way you were suppose to to have got something else, you got the wrong one - disaster.
Q.
What did the other person get? I don't know your house I know the area vaguely don't know Soham that well. isn't your house, is it on the route out of the school. I'm looking in the right place. Lodeside, out of Lodeside, it is, yes. then discussed her relationship with Huntley. don't niggle about anything like that the only niggles I would get like when he sat on his backside when you are doing something. on Sunday you are thinking come here and help me or something." then new tapes were placed in. shall I continue on? .
MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes are you all right ladies and gentlemen?
MR KHALIL
new tape, page 25, the first hole punch. "when we came back in the interview room a few moments ago, you said you have been informed by your solicitor the police had found two bodies?" "yes." "I confirm that that was the case." "Yes." "okay but there has been no other discussion about this case while the tapes have been off. what. between us you have not given your (inaudible) wouldn't expect you not to discuss things with him on tape. okay. I mean you mentioned that. what do you. You have been telling me of the (inaudible) the picture in my head. where.
where it is, why nobody has seen them for such such a long time. where you found the bodies. yes. I don't know the exact location you perhaps heard it on the news have you, I don't know." "Yes. Lakenheath sir best which we know, I know well. well I don't know very well but I know that opposite there is woods and everything." "How do you know that area?" "Well I know Lakenheath because his nana lives at Lakenheath." "Ian's nana?" "Ian's nana." "also you have your viewing area across right next to the (inaudible) then you have the office that what you call it control tower. military, military police. right, box right near the viewing area.
so I mean they have been camping down there quite a bit, they have had quite a lot of barricades up for all the September 11 thing and all that. that's the last time we went down, we got the police came and pulled up at the side of us when they weren't letting anybody down then. except for press and policeman says to us well Ian asleep in the car and he said he was laughing, pulled up outside laughing at him and I went 'There is a policeman at the side of you' he said 'what are you doing here sir?' and all this. he goes 'you are not a terrorist or anything are you.' he said 'Camping down there'.
'That's not you camping down there in tents?' 'No.' the military have been there and you said camping. I thought it is an odd place to go camping but I think you mean now. Military,but they come out of there as well and have, when they finish like, finish a shift, we have seen cars going past along there to get out sort of ing.
Q.
What were you doing down there if you weren't terrorists?
A.
Just watching the planes.
Q.
Right, planes, yes. the plane thing.
A.
There weren't much there anyway.
Q.
No.
A.
Nice to see it at night but haven't seen that in a while.
Q.
when was the last time you were down there then? Say when this press thing?
A.
They had press on it going back a while they had a road block. A big like road block checking everyone. is that - you say that was the last time you went down there you obviously can't go there - you don't drive, do you?
A.
Ian goes down there at all. not without me, not without you. no, too boring.
Q.
His family's not into plane spotting as well then?
A.
his dad is, his dad and brother works on Mildenhall airbase.
Q.
you were saying his dad goes to Mildenhall?
A.
there is a camp site behind Mildenhall, you can rent space in a farmer's field behind actually. with a tent. slap bang - no a proper caravan. Slap bang right next to the fence, you can see all the run way and everything at Mildenhall. he just goes down there, it only costs him so much a week, he can leave his van down but he has brought it back to the house at the moment. it's good, you can see quite. bit on there. Lakenheath is different though, Lakenheath they only fly certain times, Mildenhall they are in and out all the times it doesn't have a lot of interest to me, each to their own. you probably don't like the things, I like Tornados, I don't like....
Q.
you don't like American stuff.
A.
don't like them as much.
Q.
no.
A.
I know tornados are English.
Q.
you go down there - some months ago - you say obviously you are in a car, what sort of car have you got?
A.
Red Ford Fiesta.
Q.
Is that what you had at that time as well?
A.
Yes.
Q.
how long have you had that.
A.
we got it last summer. I can't remember which month we got it last summer, bought it off a DJ bloke. a man that does, a man... he does impressions of people, and (inaudible) an impressionist, George Michael, he has been on Stars in your Eyes and that, ... outside of Scunthorpe in a posh village bit, it's his girlfriend's car and she can't drive - she couldn't drive it any more or something - so he sold it.
Q.
do you drive at all?
A.
no. do you - have you even tried?
A.
yes.
Q.
have you? you didn't get on with it?
A.
no, I mounted a tree a tree stump in the middle of the car park. I was in Scunthorpe and lived near a car park, Sunday afternoon, we'll go out with the car then and went round and I got going, straight in, everything. He said right, turn round, straight back up again, well, I kept turning and kept turning the wheel and turning the wheel, going in full circle. He said, "Brake, brake". Instead of braking I accelerated, went on top of a tree stump and that got the neighbours out until about 9 at night, sawing the stump out. Took it to the garage he said its lucky its not touched the sump or anything, just all scratched not that bad. keep death of the roads yes, definitely not going to try it I don't think. not with Ian anyway. no probably not the best person in a car to try and teach you.
Q.
Do you know what the registration is.
A.
yes J1.... repeat it.
Q.
Can you remember the old car numbers at all? what else. what other ones have you got? I mentioned.
A.
Not the Fiesta. no, we got rid of the Scirocco.
Q.
Is that what you had directly before?
A.
Yes, when in Scunthorpe.
Q.
What did he have before that?
A.
I can't remember what it is Vauxhall Nova. the little ones.
Q.
What colour was that? a. burgundy colour. Scirocco.
Q.
What colour is the Fiesta.
A.
red.
Q.
Red as well. Into red then.
A.
No.
Q.
Just the luck of the draw I suppose is it. How much did he pay for it.
A.
Not much only about 1,400 and something. (Break in transcript) --- whereabouts is that on the car?
A.
The driver side, the wing bit at front, the tyre sort of thing.
Q.
Other than that it is in good Nick?
A.
it is. Yes.
Q.
does he look after it. I mean is he into, you say he is into cars, you mean he is into cars in a big way, one of these every Sunday polishing the thing?
A.
No he don't clean it very often.
Q.
Doesn't he?
A.
no, the only time it gets cleaned is if he passes the car wash and there is no queue. The only time he does it, he does it out if the dog has been in it and stuff like that, and that's it.
Q.
Does the dog get to have the run of the car?
A.
no, she- I wouldn't have thought, she throws up in it. she is sick in it, she is a nightmare, when we brought her down she was nightmare all the way down.
Q.
where does she sit?
A.
on the back seat or the boot bit?
A.
yes, on the back seat.
Q.
the boot, is it one of these with- can you get the parcel shelf out?
A.
you can get the parcel shelf... (break in transcript) ---the I wouldn't have thought if you had dog hairs all over the back seat I would have thought you would have a vacuum in there?
A.
we have a dirt devil thing. We don't take Sadie much in the car, she doesn't get on, you know she doesn't like it.
Q.
When did she last go in it?
A.
I don't know. I can't remember it.
Q.
when was the last from what I can remember.
A.
She never went in. obviously it got cleaned up after that. I hope it did. well, yes, but it has been since then, right.
Q.
Only if there is no queue in the car wash that he will run in the there. yes. how often would you say it gets washed?
Q.
about every couple of weeks, he takes it into the car wash at Ely and shoves it through there. he does it himself, with the jet washes and that.
Q.
which one does he use?
A.
Some of them may have. some of them you just put the money in.
Q.
do you know which garage it is.
A.
the one at Ely.
Q.
Does he go over there especially for that?
A.
There ain't one anywhere else. I don't know the area. one at Newmarket. I don't want to get the paint off the side of the car, the paint is coming off it is different type. don't want, proper car wash. don't want a proper power on it in case it rips it off so he can----.
Q.
I'm with you.
A.
he put at on himself and he can put as much pressure on as he wants, sort of thing, gets a better clean anyway.
Q.
When did he last clean it do you know.
A.
before he came to pick me up as far as I know. He ain't cleaned the car he cleaned the dash board and everything there was all spiders and everything in the car, that's it.
Q.
so what sorry?
A.
he wiped all down. so polished. Especially the car interior stuff? no just polish. normal? yes, polish. all cobwebs, all still cobwebs on the mirrors the wing mirror, things, everything, we just haven't bothered with it just dusty.
Q.
So you had not done the whole car?
A.
done the inside of it. just done the dash board bit and that.
Q.
Done that while you were away?
A.
it was filthy full of rubbish, the glove compartment was full of rubbish, chewing gum papers and things like stuffed in.
Q.
its not had a tidy out since you got home then?
A.
no no.
Q.
Anything in there now has been in there quite a while?
A.
been there quite a while, yes. I mean the thing is, all he got is papers and everything, he could never find his flaming papers, car papers and everything there was that much junk in that. you mean like the log book?
A.
Yes, and, you know, anything if you get stopped by the police you give them stuff like that.
Q.
Does he keep them in the car?
A.
no, everything in there, travelling around, going out for the day, we have got goodies and all sorts, sticking to the bottom, probably still some eclairs stuck to the bottom now.
Q.
does he sort out the insurance and tax and things like that on it?
A.
yes.
Q.
you don't have anything to do with it?
A.
I don't have owt to do with the car.
Q.
you just sit in the passenger seat?
A.
yes.
Q.
And watch the world go by?
A.
that's it.
Q.
anybody else use the car?
A.
no.
Q.
not at all?
A.
no. we don't use it very much anyway now with him working at the school. the only time he uses it is to take Johnny in the morning, Jonathan Butler, in the morning to the bakery at the top of Soham, to get a pizza and that about half ten and do that every day. we don't really use the car unless we are going we make special journeys to Littleport to see his dad, or go shopping, and that's it then.
Q.
you don't lend it to anybody?
A.
no. can't keep commuting like this every day, Ian was getting phone calls ten o'clock at night, having to go all the way there. So just sort of like said we'll get one room done, stayed in the bedroom most, just had the bedroom with the telly in it, used to go downstairs and then come up and eat our tea in there because there was painting, painting everywhere. Better than having to travel all the way there and back every morning.
Q.
what was that, sort of November time?
A.
when he got his job, November time. January time. November 26th he got his job, started his job. and end of January I was popping in all the time, I used to go with him. go with him Sundays and sit in the house.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
do you want a break if you go out for a moment and have five minutes. I'm going to have a word with counsel.
(Short adjournment)
MR JUSTICE MOSES
what we are going to do is stop, some of you are doing better than I am anyway, it terribly difficult. I am encouraging counsel to go fast as you are able to read it to yourselves. the important thing to remember about this is obviously during the process of investigation, the police, with the tapes on, talk - they have all the time in the world, they can talk about things, put people at ease, discuss other things.
When it gets to us you get 500 pages of the stuff. Counsel sensibly try to cut it down but as soon as one counsel says, we only need a bit, but the other counsel says you have to look at it in the context of that, so you end up with a lot of it back in, and you can bet your bottom dollar, by the time you get to the end of the case and the issues are whittled down one side or the other, there will be the other side brings out another bit.
You end up with about five minutes that anyone really cares about then you will be able to focus on it. We'll break now, whether it is going to be possible to whittle any more down is unlikely, but we'll get through it in good time this week and it is just a process of getting through it then you will read bits yourself but the bits that matter will be pointed out again. one technique some Judges do is sending the Jury away and read it but I think that's dangerous, sitting down with it you can stay awake for about five minutes.
We have to do it this way I think and nobody has really solved the problem. Once they started taking recordings in the good old days police officers wrote down about three minutes of it out of a half an hour interview and you know what criticisms they used to get about it. So we stopped doing this but this alas is the price we have to pay. will stop now but there is something serious I want to say to you about it, and that is this as you have been reading, Maxine Carr inevitably asked questions and talking about it, what she says in her interview is only evidence in her case, against her or in her favour.
It is not evidence in the case of Ian Huntley. I will explain this to you again. It is important to bear that in mind he was not there. He was not there to say no you have got that wrong or you have got that right. although obviously she is asked questions about it and it is important she should be because it is her state of mind that is the real issue in the case and she is really being questioned about and giving her side of the story so what she was told, what she knew, what she believed is clearly relevant and important.
It is very important that you do bear in mind that warning. it is not evidence in the case of Ian Huntley. That's all I'm going to stay tonight, we'll knock off now. you are finished for the day, remember the warning I gave you and we'll start again at half past ten. thank you.
Hearing adjourned - will resume tomorrow
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