27/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Thursday, 27 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03
MR KHALIL
my Lord carrying on with the interviews, we have managed
to shorten some of the reading. Counsel are going to (inaudible)
most of the interviews will still have to be continued,
I am afraid but some have been shortened. we were on page
35 at the bottom corner since the press have been knocking
on the door every 5 minutes and he is trying to get his
job done at work and he's getting----.
MR
JUSTICE MOSES
sorry go on.
CARR
trying to get his job done at work and getting ear ache
from a colleague at work, Ruth had a little go at him
because she said you are spending too much time talking
to them lot out there instead of getting on with what
is in here and things like that, you know, because they
have got to work as a team and get it done.
POLICE
I mean, I think you have- I think you have both been on
telly.
CARR
yes for what its worth, it is difficult to ignore them
while they are there and floating about all the time.
It was- the buzzer is going every time we flipping sit
down its going, you have to go out the back gate to go
anywhere and your neighbours having to invite you round
for cups of tea just to get out of the house and then
coming round to your neighbours house resisting the buzzer,
that's really something?
POLICE
must have affected you really, the pair of you.
CARR
we had just had enough really. it was all right talking
initially, you could talk to the papers, tell them what
kind of girls they are and all that, but when they are
coming with all the cameras, mass TV cameras and all their
equipment and start asking "What do you think has
happened to the girls, where do you think the girls are...",
and all that. That's just when- it just don't, just can't
do it?
POLICE
it is affecting you isn't it, is it getting to him as
well?
CARR
it is getting to both of us. I mean like Kevin, Holly's
dad, see Kevin in one of the- he came in for the press
conference very early on and he just like- so we just
don't, you know, what to say to somebody like that?
POLICE
you don't know what to say so you sort of like walk around
sort of thing?
CARR
don't say anything that as if you go on TV it is like
you are thinking,I know the press are only helping keeping
it in the public eye blah blah, but I wouldn't want somebody
coming on who didn't know my kids that well, going on
about how brilliant they are over and over again. I think
I would find it quite hard.
MR KHALIL
my Lord if we then turn through, there is constant talk
of telephones and mobile phones until ..... page 40, please.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you.
MR KHALIL
Miss Carr asks about her mobile phone and that of Mr Huntley
and then, just below the first hole punch, a question
which begins "What about texts", if we pick
it up there?
POLICE
"what
about texts - are you one of these----
CARR
yes, I have seen people do that so fast I don't know how
they do it, these text things?
POLICE
no, I don't. You are always texting each other, are you?
CARR
well, I text. it is cheaper than calling, I suppose, isn't
it?
POLICE
yes.
CARR
When I was like in Grimsby and that, I texted him, because
it is quicker, it is easier than ringing up and losing
all you money talking for a couple of minutes. might as
well send a message.
POLICE
it doesn't matter how long it is I suppose, a text within
reason on?
CARR
You can carry on and carry on - I don't know how long
it goes on for but?
POLICE
the ones - it is 21st century isn't it.
CARR
it is?
POLICE
does he send you them back rather than speak to you if
you like, or not?
CARR
depends on what I say. did it all over the weekend, you
will see; on the phone like, I was making sure that he
was eating and things. because he's not a big - won't
eat much if I'm not there, will go to the chippy and stuff
like that.
POLICE
did you text each other a lot while you were away then?
CARR
I texted him, he didn't text me, he rang me. he has got
a works phone of course so?
POLICE
right - they pay the bill.
CARR
course they do, he doesn't ring everybody all over the
place.
CARR
no, just rang me to make sure I was eating all right,
what I was up to?
POLICE
how often does he ring you?
CARR
Saturday, I rang him more than he rang me. I rang him
the last time, he rang me at bed time, his number was
up as 'unanswered call' I had gone out with my mother
when I got back. It said 'unanswered call' and I pressed
it down and then there had been a text in it saying, you
know, 'Where are you'. something like that. And I rang
him before we had gone out. I just got back from shopping
he was in, well, I have got to get the shopping away,
make myself some tea. then on the Sunday he rang to tell
me him and Johnny had been out in the pub and the barman
took his pint off him?
POLICE
right, that was that day.
CARR
yes?
POLICE
when did he ring you to tell you that or tell you about
that?
CARR
he told me, I said to you about tea time, it were about
tea time?
POLICE
about tea time.
CARR
he rang me and said about it?
POLICE
did he ring you again on Sunday night?
CARR
he rang, he rang me in the 6 o'clock hour. He said to
me "Where are you?" he said "What are you
doing tonight - are you saying in, or are you going out?
Are you staying in or what?" "no, I said, we
are going to nip around to Paula's," I said "to
look at a bag." "That's only because you told
me you weren't going out." I remember that 'cos he
said "Well I'm not going anywhere. I have got a DVD",
and he did get a DVD. He got The Last Castle or something,
with Robert Redford, but I don't think he has watched
it all because he says the police and everything came
in.
POLICE
is that on the Sunday night?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
where did he get that - are you members of the local Blockbuster?
CARR
Yes.
POLICE
is that in town, is it?
CARR
on the High Street next to One Stop on the corner.
POLICE
I know where you mean now I have not seen that I have
seen----
CARR
yes, a bit along.
POLICE
what about Monday, did he give- I take it he didn't ring
you any more on Sunday night?
CARR
he rang me on the morning, about 9 o'clock in the morning.
I was in. About 8 to 9 o'clock he rang my mum's phone;
he had rang my phone but it was downstairs. he rang my
mum's phone and asked to speak to me because I presume
he thought well where is she, she went out last night
and she's not - mum gave me the phone and everything and
I said "Oh you sound tired" and he said "Yes.
I have been out searching with the police for the missing
kids." that was right.
POLICE
that was the first you heard about it, was it?
CARR
then when he told me who it was, it was when I was at
my grandad's in the afternoon when my aunty and that was
there and we started flicking through Teletext to have
a look.
POLICE
you mentioned that this morning.
CARR
yes.
POLICE
so I have got this clear he phoned you, you never phoned
him?
CARR
when?
POLICE
during Sunday, going back to Sunday.
CARR
Sunday I don't----?
POLICE
you didn't phone him?
CARR
no.
POLICE
he phoned you once at about four o'clock.
CARR
something like that yes.
POLICE
something like that.
CARR
because we went out, we went out, nearly seven o'clock
we went, and he had just rang not long before saying well,
it would be on the phone anyway.
POLICE
What about the DVD was that one, the night before.
CARR
no. He wanted to know what I was up to tonight what are
you doing tonight, well, I might be going out. yes, he
did mention some girls, asked about me, but he was more
bothered about me going out, rather than these girls.
the next time I knew about it is when he told me on the
Monday afternoon?
POLICE
sorry, so what is this - the girls? Which girls asked
about you?
CARR
Holly and Jessica it was, but he said 'some girls' I just
asked him what he had done, was doing. he said, well I
have got a DVD,I have got some beer and all this.
POLICE
that's what he said to you?
CARR
yes?
POLICE
right he was.
CARR
he was too busy rabbiting on. 'I thought you weren't going
out', all that. I sent him a text message back which is
probably still on my phone saying 'Don't make me feel
bad when I'm with my family.' Didn't get an answer to
that.
POLICE
you don't surprise me really.
CARR
until he rang the next day in the morning - he rang my
mum's phone as well?
POLICE
what did he say - obviously Holly and Jessica - what did
he say?
CARR
I just asked him what -I just said, like, said what you
doing and everything. He asked what I was doing; he said
about Sadie, the bath - he didn't say she broke the bath
until I got back - that he had been cleaning up or something,
just said, it was more talking about what he was doing,
'I have got some beers in'. have a sit down, watch TV.
oh, some girls asked about you. did they really?
POLICE
did he tell you at that point it was Holly and Jessica?
CARR
no, he just said, 'Some girls asked about you.'
POLICE
right. so when did you find out that it was Holly and
Jessica that had been----?
CARR
in the afternoon when he he rang up my grandad's on the?
POLICE
on the Monday then?
CARR
Yes. he rang in the morning, he said he had been out searching
with the police, these kids had gone missing in the afternoon
he rang up and said (inaudible) "The kid from your
school", then he said, 'The bad thing about it is
they are the girls that came and asked about you outside.'
then he told me the full - what they had said and everything.
POLICE
right. what did he say?
CARR
he just said that they came to the - he said he was sorting
Sadie out and they came to the side of the car. He has
just looked up and there was these girls stood there and
they just asked how is Miss Carr. He was a bit gob-smacked
because he didn't know who they were and he sort of thought,
well they must know her and he just said "Oh she,
you know, she's not too good. I mean you know she didn't
get her job", they went "Oh yes, yes we know.
Tell her we are sorry and we hope to see her." then
they just disappeared off round towards the bridge and
that's it.
POLICE
right, towards College Road?
CARR
yes, to go over that bridge.
POLICE
heading towards----
CARR
yes, round that corner where there is bushes, leads back
into town, sort of thing.
POLICE
did he say anything more about what they had said?
CARR
that was all. That's all he could really say. that's why
I was panicking, looking on teletext and everything, than
I rang him up again not long after asking him what, if
anything, had changed and everything. I said "I want
to come home, Ian. I don't want to stay here." and
he was upset as well because he said the police, or the
press, I don't know which, I can't remember which he said,
had said that he was the last person that had probably
seen them alive. that's what somebody had said to him.
he said "How do you know that?" and they said,
"Oh well you are the last person we have got down
as seeing them, seeing the girls I mean, sorry."
that rattled me because he sort of thought well what is
going to happen, you know, if they don't, nobody else
sees them and everything like that. Then he started panicking
about what had happened before and if the police find
out and nobody else that's what really went on through
the whole of that week. Him worrying that nobody else
would, was going to see these girls. And that he was going
to be the last person and there was people knocking on
the door saying "You were the last person to see
them", and they were saying like alive and things
like that. that's really shook him to the core really.
POLICE
in what way, I mean, did it how did it affect him?
CARR
I think it would affects anybody the same, nervous, you,
I mean where - where is the police going to come looking
if you are the last person to have seen them, they are
going to come looking for you aren't they? You would imagine.
They are not going to go running off to, or wherever,
if you have got evidence, and that he was very, very worried
and upset, worried somebody would ring from Grimsby, one
of these people that has caused trouble for him before,
his mother was anyway, caused the trouble for him saying,
oh, he has been accused of such and such, you ought to
have a look at him and all this. That's one of the reasons
he went on the television to prove to his mother and everyone
that they can't touch him on that any more really. His
mother was very worried about it. He said, 'I'm going
to go on the TV mum', he said. if people ring up he said,
they have got the proof you know, that I was acquitted,
and all this. He said that's what will happen, he said,
I can't keep hiding away. because the press are just reading
things into it. They were starting to say, oh, you must
be a dodgy caretaker if you don't want to go on TV and
stuff like that.
POLICE
That's what rattled him?
CARR
That's what rattled him as well, the press were trying
to make out he was somebody that he isn't. So he was----
POLICE
so he was getting nervous what does he do when he is nervous
then.
CARR
smoke.
POLICE
Smokes a lot?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
anything else?
CARR
He just wanted to get out there and help as much as possible
I think that's what affected him the most, he has been
in it so much; helping the police, giving interviews with
everybody, because he thinks that is the best way to help.
because the press say that is the best way to help. He
had just been too involved in it and I think it's run
him down really, just making, I thought it was going to
make him ill really. I mean, last night in the hotel -
we are near the end, all right - he was very upset he
said, he said, I think now, I think they just, they are
going to arrest, arrest us both. He said I don't know
what, what to say, or anything like that. he said 'Just
tell them the truth, just tell them the truth about everything',
he said, and you will be, you know, everything will be
all right?
POLICE
what made him think he was going to get arrested?
CARR
from what the police officer had been saying to him about
- you don't have to find a body, like a body, or anything
to charge somebody if you have reasonable suspicion that
they are involved. cases when people haven't, you know,
haven't had bodies and have been charged so.
POLICE
all right coming towards the end of the tape. time before
we switch off is 10.30. new tapes were inserted. talking
about what he was saying in the discussion you and Ian
had, you said that he was worried that he was going to
get arrested. Was he worried that you were going to get
arrested, or he was going to get arrested?
CARR
we.
POLICE
we?
CARR
we get arrested. He was very very upset, very upset. I
mean when they put him in, when he got accused before
and they put him in one of those things, he deteriorated
and had a breakdown because he didn't want to do it, and
I'm worried the more people pushed him, the more chance
he is going to. I just can't bear to see him go down the
same way he went down and he looked, from what this police
officer said to him about not having to say anything unless
you have reasonable doubt, it was like pointing a finger.
POLICE
Surely if he has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear,
the same as you?
CARR
he hasn't, he hasn't got anything to hide at all. You
just worry when you are in this situation. I'm here and
I don't- I have not done anything and I know Ian hasn't
done anything. Yet we are still here and still having
to have swabs and whatever else you want, we are trying
to help in everything we can yes, it it still feel like
you are the one who has took these girls.
POLICE
you feel that or he feels that?
CARR
I think we feel, what I mean, what else can you think?
You volunteer to give it, give in phone at knew damn well.
When we saw it on the television we could never go home.
We couldn't go home until this is sorted out. I saw this
when I was watching it in the police station in the canteen;
it came on our faces and they turned it off quickly. I
told them to turn it back on again. you can't go home
to that. what kind of people are going to just go mad.
like they sort of put this on and now everybody is going
to think have you done something, even though you haven't
done anything, yet everybody is going that's it. On the
Friday your face, your picture is all over the country?
POLICE
the thing is, Maxine, from your point of view you know
you were in Grimsby and I'm sure there are colleagues
of ours checking that out at the moment?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
you don't know where Ian was, do you?
CARR
I know he wouldn't do anything, see, I mean it doesn't
matter, investigate as much as you like but he wouldn't
do anything to anybody.
POLICE
obviously now you are aware because you spoke about it
at the beginning that two bodies have been found. I don't
know but you don't have to be a brain surgeon to guess-
probably a very educated guess, surely have you, to go
through lots of tests and things?
POLICE
there are a lot of things to be gone through, that's part
of the reason you have been here with us; you have been
here today you have had all the swabs and things and the
same with Ian.
CARR
I ain't done anything.
POLICE
the question you have to ask in relation to you - the
question you have to ask, okay you were in Grimsby the
day they went missing, but you have been back in Soham
since, and you have been with Ian since. If we are suspecting
he's involved in some way in their murder and abduction
we have to question exactly what your involvement is -
if any at all - and that's really why we are here today.
You understand that obviously? YARR yes?
POLICE
what I can recall from yesterday, and it was getting late,
you have got a phone you have had a couple of years.
CARR
yes?
POLICE
that was the one given to you by your mum?
CARR
yes?
POLICE
okay. Ian has another phone.
CARR
yes?
POLICE
quite a recent-ish one.
CARR
yes?
POLICE
it belongs to the job.
CARR
yes.
POLICE
at the school he lost the other one on the car roof
CARR
yes, yes.
POLICE
I didn't want to admit it yesterday but that happened
to me once so I know it can happen. can you say when that
happened, when the change of phone had been?
CARR
I know it is when his dad got his new car because Ian
drove. I can't give you exact - going back a bit when
they got it - Ian's dad had to go to a place on the A
17 to get this car. We had to drive there so he could
drive his car back, sort of thing, he didn't want to stop,
sort of thing, he had it on top of the car, the top of
the car he got in and it went, but it was an old one anyway.
they would know, the school would know, they have got
it in the actual house, the drawer in the kitchen the
actual box with a number on it, things like that, all
the numbers and that and everything and the charger.
POLICE
do you know the number of the previous phone?
CARR
no, long since forgotten.
CARR
his dad will know, Ian will know, his dad will know, he
has it on his mobile?
POLICE
do you know if Ian has number to get into his phone -
you know, like you have 1, 2, 3, 4.
CARR
I don't think so. I don't use his phone.
POLICE
so you never?
CARR
no. I don't, I don't think they have got a code, I mean
they just give it to each other, one or the other of them
has got it.
POLICE
I see, so it is not a phone that is only for his use then?
CARR
no, it is for whoever is on call, just for fire alarms
really, for contractors to get in touch with him?
POLICE
so he hasn't got a phone then he could call this own?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
He could just do what he liked with?
CARR
no he hasn't.
POLICE
as hasn't got one of those?
CARR
no.
POLICE
obviously if its a phone that can be used by anybody,
well I say anybody, can we say who anybody would be who
would be the other people that would be on the call?
CARR
Michael Gee, he is an assistant site officer.
POLICE
he is the one who shares the phone?
CARR
Ruth had it as well when Ian went off ill. She was supposed
to have the phone. Michael was not supposed to be on call.
They had to take it in turns. There are three key holders
at the school, Ruth, Michael and Ian, so they sort of
like take it in turns with the mobile just in case the
alarms go off and stuff.
POLICE
when was the last time he would let anybody else have
that phone?
CARR
Michael has had the phone since I have been back from
Grimsby and Ruth has had the phone as well because with
all the press and everything Mr Gilbert, the headmaster,
said "Go away don't come in, avoid the Press, just
go home and relax" so he had to hand the phone over,
but on the weekend, on that weekend, he was on call because
he was in the school, he would have been on call that
weekend?
POLICE
that weekend you are talking about - the weekend of the
4th, Sunday 4th August?
CARR
yes, yes he was on call because he was the one working
in the school anyway with another lad.
POLICE
right. You don't use that phone, have ever used it?
CARR
I have used it once or twice just to ring my mum. I had
to ring it and put it down so she rings me back or whatever,
because I have not got any credit. that's the only people
I have rung on it.
POLICE
when was the last time you used that phone.
CARR
after I came back from Grimsby, I rang my mum on it.
POLICE
why did you use that one?
CARR
because I didn't have any credit on mine.
POLICE
oh right, good enough reason I suppose isn't it?
CARR
my credit ran out on the Monday, Monday the 5th.
POLICE
Monday 5th while you were up in Grimsby?
CARR
Yes, because I had bought one from a shop in Grimsby on
the Saturday, so really when I got there I went out and
got one so I could keep in contact with Ian and everything
and by the time Monday came, well the end of Monday it
had gone.
POLICE
you had obviously used it a fair bit then?
CARR
it just conked out. I was talking to him; we went mobile
to mobile and that soon mounts up, doesn't it. I don't
know if the same, Virgin mobile, I don't know what supplier,
whatever, his phone is. That's why I text him a few times
then when you need to talk to him it costs a lot of money.
POLICE
with regard your phone you say the credit ran out, what
sort of time - when did you find that you had got none
left on the Monday?
CARR
when I got back from my mum's house, because it was, I
just went like that, just went off and I got it so I had
my battery charger with me. It kept charged up and everything
so people could ring me.
POLICE
did you use anybody else's phone while when you were there
then?
CARR
I rang and used my mum's phone, that was just----
POLICE
landline or mobile?
CARR
no, mobile, to find out what time Ian was going to get
to me to pick me up on the Tuesday because, with my mum
working, she wanted to know I was going to be gone sort
of thing because I had a load of bags, I have my bags
with me and everything, what I had bought and stuff, so
she didn't want, sort of, like, to leave me on the doorstep
because she has only got one key. She is very like that
you know, not leaving it under the mat or anything like
that you know. you have to come soon, and that's basically
what----
POLICE
so what sort of time?
CARR
spoke to her, rang on my mum's phone on the Tuesday morning,
just to sort of find out where he was, and he was actually,
we had to pull over, to answer the phone and he was going
somewhere near Sleaford, I thought, well, if he comes
he will probably just get up and just come. He took a
wrong turning we normally come off before Sleaford and
go towards Collings by that way, and come on A 16 past
Slough, to there, and he had taken the wrong one. He has
had to go all the way to the top to turn round, come back
to go back on it, and he was going just telling me, he
says, 'I shouldn't be too long I should be there in about
40 minutes', something like that. then that's when he
got there; he got there nearly 12 o'clock.
POLICE
going back to - obviously you said you had to buy - when
did you buy the phone credit.
CARR
on the Saturday.
POLICE
the Saturday?
CARR
in Grimsby.
POLICE
in Grimsby. That credit then lasted all the way until
Monday evening?
CARR
yes, I got it for (inaudible) in my purse at home. They
don't do the scratch things any more, it is a top up card
or something. that's it, that's it - they just swipe?
POLICE
they just swipe them don't they now?
CARR
That's - the first time I got one my mum said when they
go again you give them £10 they swipe it and it
comes on the phone.
POLICE
that's the next question, how much credit did you buy
on the Saturday?
CARR
I just bought the £10?
POLICE
a tenner's worth was it? okay. did you ever have the cause
to use anybody else's phone over the weekend, whilst you
were away in Grimsby, other than what you have told me.
Obviously on the Tuesday morning you used----.
CARR
no. Just my mum's that's it because there is no landline
my mum's, just that one.
POLICE
go on.
CARR
no I didn't use the phone at any other place. I had my
mobile with me all the time so if anyone wanted to get
in touch with me they could do.
POLICE
you used your mum's only on that Tuesday morning?
CARR
yes.
MR KHALIL
I'm going to ask us to move on to page 54. That discussion
continued in similar vein and the centre of the page new
tapes word inserted and the interview continued
CARR
I feel ashamed. My face and everything has just been splattered
across the news and people think I'm somebody that I'm
not. and think that Ian is somebody and he is not and
you have to go through your life, whatever, you find you
know, you right this off we have to go on with our lives
knowing people think that's what we were, you know arrested
for. In the country, where in the country are you supposed
to go? I will never ever set foot back in Soham, never.
POLICE
are you all right?
CARR
I wish you would leave us alone I know you can't but I
wish you would.
POLICE
take your time.
MR KHALIL
the solicitor says the tape is coming to an end and the
break invited and further tapes are inserted.
POLICE
okay you have had a short break to get a cup of water,
diet coke calorie free. Let's crack on. what I want to
speak to you now is Holly and Jessica. some specific things
we need to go over with regard to that, hopefully you
can help us. Holly and Jessica ever been to your house?
CARR
no.
POLICE
are you sure about that?
CARR
not inside my house, no.
POLICE
Sorry.
CARR
no, inside my house, no.
POLICE
not inside your house?
CARR
they haven't been to my house until Ian told me they had
been to the door. That's the first time they had been
to my house.
POLICE
would they know where you live?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
how would they know that?
CARR
because most of the kids knew where I lived. They all
knew I lived next door to Emma, who is in the same class.
She told everyone I live next door to Miss Carr, so everyone
knew I lived next door do Emma Scarlett?
POLICE
right. did the kids in general and obviously including
Holly and Jessica, did they associate you with Ian the
caretaker?
CARR
they knew I had a partner called Ian, I told them about
getting married and the kids all offered to be the bridesmaids
and stuff, but out of sight whether they just presume.
I don't think any of them see us two out together, not
them two anyway.
POLICE
no would they necessarily be able to make a connection
between you and the caretaker.
CARR
yes, because they know I am the fiance of the caretaker
from the college.
POLICE
okay. How would they - if you say they have not seen you
out together is it something you have said to them?
CARR
I have told them.
POLICE
'He is the caretaker' sort of thing?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
just said - you said?
CARR
When they asked questions about getting engaged and that,
my partner is, you know, site officer and everything in
the school - so when are you getting married, blah blah
blah, we can all be bridesmaids?
POLICE
I see, had you got any plans to get married - I don't
know when when in time? Some time in the future?
CARR
when we have probably sorted ourselves out, now we are
financially okay it is just getting in the bits we need
before we can think about it.
POLICE
how long have you been engaged?
CARR
since about a year and a bit.
POLICE
going back to Holly and Jessica, where would you say is
the nearest they have been to your house?
CARR
St Andrew's.
POLICE
St Andrew's school. you have never seen them walking past?
CARR
Oh they walk, walk past when we go to church. (inaudible)
they walk down the footpath from St Andrew's, down the
footpath into the car park, along the side of the car
park, big rows of kids cutting across past the roundabout
straight into the church graveyard.
POLICE
that's every Wednesday morning?
CARR
not every Wednesday morning - when they have something
special, something thing like that.
POLICE
how many times have you walked past with the kids?
CARR
I have walked with the little kids as well, about four
times I have been there.
POLICE
okay. Obviously we went over it yesterday. How well do
you know Holly and Jessica - would you say you know them
any better than any other kids?
CARR
know Emma better than Holly and Jessica.
POLICE
the next door neighbour?
CARR
sorry?
POLICE
her surname?
CARR
Emma Scarlett. She has a little sister, she is 7. They
invited us to a barbecue, stuff like that. I was, I generally
thought she was proud to have, oh, Miss Carr is living
next door, and everybody is oh, you live next door to
her?
POLICE
a Emma is a friend of Holly and Jessica?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
good friend or classroom?
CARR
just a class mate.
POLICE
what about Ian do Holly and Jessica know Ian?
CARR
Not by name or anything like that. They might know him
by sight. They would know of him by name if I said Ian,
my partner Ian, but I never really mentioned him at school
or anything like that, just when are you getting married?
They know him as the caretaker or Mr Huntley.
POLICE
how would he----?
CARR
No they would know him as Mr Huntley. I mean I don't know
how the caretaker is addressed, just the caretaker. Some
of the kids at his own school say where is the caretaker,
the site officer for the kids school call him caretaker,
only kids at his school possibly know him as Mr Huntley.
Some lads help put chairs out call him Ian, they are the
older ones 14 or 15 year olds, lads helping out with the
chairs - helping out when they put plays on and stuff
like that if they are on detention.
MR
KHALIL
over the page second 946 down.
POLICE
Right, what else would you have mentioned to Holly and
Jessica about your life?
CARR
they knew I had rats.
POLICE
did you tell them they were pets though?
CARR
yes. They used to go on about the dog, Sadie. Emma from
next door would take her for a walk, like some cool big
thing if they had involvement with a teacher or teacher's
assistant. Nothing really apart from the wedding, details
or anything like that. She would come- Holly came up to
me and showed me a photograph of a lad that was 13, you
know, sort of what do you think of him is he all right.
she used to prepare, and other kids in the class used
to make stupid dance routines up to songs and dance around
in the wet area showing me.
POLICE
What area?
CARR
The wet area, where that is my area, just like two classrooms
either side and then just an area where they keep all
the scissors and materials and that?
POLICE
for the class?
CARR
Yes, sorry, they just called it a wet area really because
it has not got carpet on the floor, just like slippery
stuff where you do painting and stuff like that they used.
They had been going in there on about the last day of
term. She was jigging about with Stevie to a pop song?
POLICE
Who is Stevie.
CARR
Stevie Turner or Harrison now. She was Turner but her
mum got married to somebody else.
POLICE
It is a lady Stevie?
CARR
Yes.
POLICE
Stevie (inaudible) rather than.
CARR
yes the last day... I kept thinking, don't look at me,
I'm going to cry in a minute, don't look at me. I was
trying to keep my face straight when I got up and said,
'Right, I will see you.' Miss Pederson was going, thanks
Miss Carr, and all this, then said goodbye, and I just
started crying, then I just walked off. I was on bus duty.
I had to stand in the hall and I was stood there. They
were asking the kids names (inaudible) up comes Holly
and Stevie, massive hug, going to miss you so much, went
off round the corner, I said go in I said before I start
crying. that was it, that was the last time I seen Holly
and Stevie.
POLICE
are you sure about that, the last time you saw Holly?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
when was it?
CARR
the last day of term.
POLICE
what about Jessica?
CARR
Jessica? I hadn't seen Jessica since she went on holiday,
probably the week before the end of term. I didn't even
know she had gone on holiday until she wasn't there.
POLICE
have either of the girls ever been in your car. Are you
sure about that?
CARR
I'm sure, to my knowledge they have not been in my car.
POLICE
never given them a lift?
CARR
no.
POLICE
I know you don't drive - but never given them a lift anywhere?
CARR
no.
POLICE
Can you think of any circumstances where they may have?
CARR
None at all.
CARR
no?
POLICE
what about Sadie, have they ever met Sadie?
CARR
They have not met her when I have had Sadie, (inaudible)
know.
POLICE
what you said is that they know about, they know of the
rats and all the rest of the menagerie there?
CARR
Yes, that was quite a talking point in the class.
POLICE
I will bet. when?
CARR
when we are doing maths and stuff and saying how many
kids got stuff, pets such and such pets and stuff, they
put rats on and she wipes it off and said, no, only Miss
Carr has rats. She wiped it off and put hamsters and that
down.
POLICE
you don't recall ever seeing either out and about when
you have been walking Sadie?
CARR
(inaudible answer.) Ian never mentioned it while he was
out - met any kids - no."
MR KHALIL
stop there, and we move page 62, please. conversation
about dealings with the press and then, the third line
down, to the right hand side
CARR
"I think on the Saturday we gave our interview to
(inaudible) that's why we were searched - everything was
put back away?
POLICE
how did that upset you?
CARR
It didn't upset me as much, just getting up again and
looking out the window seeing these people out there.
I just couldn't wait to get out of Soham and go shopping,
so you didn't have to see you were shopping. When you
come back they weren't going in there but they were there
then thinking should we go on TV and talk to these people,
does it look right? I don't want- if I was a parent of
somebody who had gone missing I don't think I would want
to see the same person going on TV rabbiting on about
how they knew them, unless they knew them really well.
That's why I didn't want to keep going, talking and going
on telly. I thought if you give a bit of statement to
one newspaper and they circulate it, fine, but to be going
on every time you open the paper up, turning the news
on and you see this person who doesn't know them like
an aunty or uncle knows them or a brother or sisters know
them. I don't think I would like it. so that's why we
were very wary of what they would think - maybe they are
after five minutes of fame or something.
POLICE
is that what Ian thought also?
CARR
that's what we told the press. we said we are not after
5 minutes of fame. We don't want to go on TV, that was
to the BBC, the BBC one, she kept coming and coming and
coming, knocking on the door at all hours. That's why
basically, when Look East came out, with it being a local
programme, that's why we spoke to them. We said we'll
go on TV for them it is local and more relevant to the
people in this area. so I mean, they don't get it up North,
they won't be getting our interview so people what is
round here it might be helpful.
POLICE
did it bother you that people up North were seeing you
on television?
CARR
the first time I seen myself in any description on the
television, is when I was sat in the police station with
those two officers.
POLICE
you said yesterday, yes they turned it on?
CARR
when I saw my- they turned it off. I told them to put
it back on. the only other time I have been seen in the
paper, I saw myself in the paper, in the Sun a little
bit at the top with Holly, Holly with kind heart about
my card that I had and that's it. I mean we was told by
somebody in Littleport in the pubs, pubs we were in The
News of the World. We didn't get the News of the World,
we didn't want to see it.
POLICE
have you kept any of these papers and things you have
been in?
CARR
just chucked them away. We only got the Sun anyway because
Ian wanted to know what they had been saying because he
wouldn't go on. somebody at school, one of their press
officers said to Michael the assistant, why do you think
it is that Ian and Maxine do not want to go on television?
Have they got something dodgy in their past? So Michael
came and told Ian that he said that's what they are sort
of trying to circulate round to all the press officers.
That you must be hiding something if you don't want to
go on television, which is another reason we finally said
we'll go on television and hope to shut everybody else
up, with it not being exclusive or whatever you might
call it, just thought, well, if we go on air, they will
say well its not worth bothering now, they have been on
air but it just didn't stop like that.
MR
KHALIL
if we pick up at the top of the next page 19th August?
POLICE
if we can go back to the house you and Ian moved into,
just remind me, as I understand it, you got the job in
October time, October/November last year?
CARR
November last year.
POLICE
you did some work to the house can you tell me what?
CARR
we did some, some was done. Murphy's came in, the contractors
and put a new ceiling in the dining room, the kitchen,
put a floor, whatever they do, cemented the floor or whatever.
Put the cupboards up and everything that was there, they
put a new bath in upstairs with a new toilet, new toilet
downstairs, ceiling, roof tiles, painted all the interior
and exterior of the house that's about it, I think.
POLICE
Right so it was ready for you to live with Ian?
CARR
Yes.
POLICE
We talked a little bit earlier about- I don't think we
went into detail about furnishings?
POLICE
was there any furnishing in the house ready for you, other
than fixtures and fittings?
CARR
no. What I would call like bath or shower whatever, toilet.
There weren't any there at all. No, sorry before we moved
in, there was stuff in there which belonged to the person
before, a chair upstairs and toys and games and stuff
in the kids rooms. This was about it really. But we got
rid of it, we dumped it. We gave Mrs Bryden the principal
of the school gave them adequate time to come and get
what they wanted, but if they didn't come we got a big
skip and dumped all the carpets in there. took all the
carpets up they were all smelly and horrible just got
rid of it.
POLICE
so that's his toys and chair, none of that is kept you
say the carpets, where were the carpets from?
CARR
the carpets in the living room, the hallway, they smelt
of, I don't know what it was, but it smelt anyway all
the carpets from the dining room, there was on the stairs,
it was all floor boards and it was just just the dining
room and in the hallway and the living room they have
this brown carpet down like this, we took up, so no carpets.
POLICE
so what have you done, do you have to re-carpet it then?
CARR
The school re-carpeted it for us.
POLICE
just that bit or the whole house?
CARR
recarpeted, we linoed the kitchen, linoed the kitchen
downstairs, linoed the downstairs toilet and the bathroom
upstairs. Hall, stairs and landing carpeted, our bedroom
has been carpeted, dining room has been carpeted and living
room has been carpeted, that leaves bedrooms, downstairs
room not been carpeted, nothing has been done to those
apart from painting, so the----
POLICE
so the downstairs room. Is that the one used as an office?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
what (inaudible) You talked about that, that was unclear
which one it is?
POLICE
which rooms have not been carpeted upstairs?
CARR
upstairs, the one at the top, well, no, because I, they
didn't carpet; I carpeted, the rats' room has been carpeted
so you see there are two pieces of carpet not down properly,
just fitted over the top of each other and the bedroom
at the far end is just brown floorboards; that's the spare,
what we call the spare room. The spare room, yes, all
the carpets the school laid were laid by a proper man;
I just put carpet down in there so I could shove my rats
in there and everything.
POLICE
did they need a carpet - the rats?
CARR
yes, makes the room nice and warm I suppose, doesn't it,
raises the temperature.
POLICE
Yes, you don't lose so much heat, they don't like draughts
and that?
POLICE
we talked about carpets, let's move to cleaning the house
in general. who cleans the house - is that your job?
CARR
My job - Ian doesn't do any cleaning at all - well, he
has washed up (inaudible) twice.
POLICE
you can probably tell me which days?
CARR
no, he has washed up twice. That was when I first started
working at St Andrew's because I have been, like, when
he is at work he comes home with John at half ten and
goes for pizza and comes back to the house and eats pizza
all over the floor - pizza everywhere, I think he has
washed up for me so I have not got to come home to too
much of a mess of all the domestic chores.
POLICE
your responsibility?
CARR
yes. Mine.
POLICE
I see. People's ideas of cleaning vary from house to house.
I have got to ask. I can't judge you by anybody else.
how do you do your cleaning? do you do it all in one go,
do it a bit at a time?
CARR
all in one go.
POLICE
a weekly clean or fortnightly?
CARR
No, daily.
POLICE
daily clean?
CARR
I am obsessive, whatever you want to call it, cleaning.
Sometimes I can't be bothered but normally I have got
something (inaudible) in the house I can't leave it the
way it is.
POLICE
that's true. So what do you do on a daily basis then?
CARR
hoover, polish, bed strip I put the- you know, change
the not change the bed sheets, but probably make the bed,
whatever, wipe all the skirtings and that down, because
the minute I'm wiping all the skirthings down for Sadie's
bleeding, she gets it on the skirting board.
POLICE
how long has she been doing that you said she is on heat?
CARR
yes, in season bleeds for about three weeks when she moves
she wags her tail and splats everything.
POLICE
that was when you went away?
CARR
She had been leaving flaming drops all over the place
literally. I'm sick of cleaning up after her.
POLICE
you clean the skirting boards?
CARR
yes. Clean the bathroom and just generally clean through
with flash and clean the kitchen floor.
POLICE
so you said hoovering you just have your own hoover have
you?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
what sort is it?
CARR
Dyson, ain't very good.
POLICE
aren't they?
CARR
Not mine. I have blown the motor twice.
POLICE
that's probably over use?
CARR
that's what he said, the man who came out.
POLICE
which rooms would you hoover on a daily basis?
CARR
living room, hallway, hall stairs and landing, bedroom,
dining room all the carpeted rooms.
POLICE
right.
CARR
and the rats' room as well.
POLICE
the rats' room okay, and you said polish what needs polishing.
CARR
living room, hall, stairs landing all the wood on there
and the hall mirrors, downstairs toilet a mirror in there,
there is no mirrors upstairs in the bathroom so I don't,
there is stuff in the bathroom that needs polishing in
there.
POLICE
What sort of polish do you use?
CARR
anything. At the minute I'm using Pledge just Mr Sheen?
POLICE
you are not fussy?
CARR
No as long as it is reasonable all right.
POLICE
not Budgens own make or anything?
CARR
I suppose if I'm desperate I will.
POLICE
how much polish do you get through, how quickly do you
get through a tin of polish?
CARR
couple of weeks.
POLICE
You say you clean kitchens and bathroom, with my limited
knowledge of cleaning houses you can use the same sort
of stuff for that?
CARR
I do. I don't know what anybody else does.
POLICE
what sort of stuff do you use?
CARR
I use Flash All Purpose with Bleach as well.
POLICE
is that a cream one or powder one?
CARR
(inaudible)?
POLICE
what do you do, just pour it round the sink or whatever?
CARR
yes, put in the water, dilute it, to do work surfaces
and stuff.
POLICE
you use one of the sprays one of them?
CARR
No an actual bottle, Flash All Purpose you can use it
anywhere really, floors, anywhere I also have bleach in
as well when I have run out of Flash.
POLICE
bleach. what do you use to wash the things with, do you
have sponge or cloth or scourers?
CARR
the scourers the ones you use to wash up with a sponge
at the bottom and scourer at the top.
POLICE
the plastic sort?
CARR
like a sponge with a green rough top.
POLICE
scourer thing?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
How often do you do the, you do them daily as well the
kitchen and bathroom. I know it has been difficult the
last couple of wueeks, but since you have been back from
the North that have you been doing it daily, cleaning
the house daily?
CARR
yes, that's all I had to do really because Ian has been
at work. I have just been hiding away from the press really.
I won't bother answering the door when they come to the
door unless I can see it is not them, or it is the police
or whatever, then I open the door but no I have just been
keeping myself busy washing curtains and stuff like that
and painted the downstairs toilet, finished in the kitchen
off as well.
POLICE
right, that's since you came back , is it?
CARR
as soon as I came back, yes. I finished painting the tiles
in the kitchen Ian had only done up to where the counter
is.
POLICE
you what, sorry tiles?
CARR
tiles.
POLICE
Tiles?
CARR
tiles sorry yes we had all white tiles in the kitchen.
We got tile paint, green tile paint and Ian did up to
the window from the back door to the window, but there
was all this long stretch around the side he didn't do
so I did, I have done it. I painted the bath and that
and towel rail in the downstairs toilet and the mirror,
around the mirror, the frame round the mirror. I am a
bit of an arty farty type. well I think I am anyway.
POLICE
it is your house you can decorate how you like.
CARR
Ian said for God sake I have got to live here as well,
I was doing it so I have to look after the house so I
can do what I want with it. I'm not bothered.
POLICE
so you have done a bit of painting. what else was it you
said, you had done a bit of in the spare room, since you
come back in your spare time. you said something else
as well as painting?
CARR
cleaning the curtains?
POLICE
cleaning curtains, that's it.
CARR
I took the curtains down in the dining room and the hallway.
I was supposed to be doing the ones in the living room
but didn't get chance to do them, wrongful trading.
POLICE
Which ones did you do then did you say?.
CARR
the red ones in the dining room that and blue ones in
the hallway.
POLICE
what do you do, you take them up to Sketchleys or something?
CARR
no , I put them in the washing machine.
POLICE
oh, do you? Shows what I know about cleaning curtains
doesn't it? what did you do then?
CARR
you're not supposed to do them - I know they're, like,
velvet ones, but I will just stuff them in there. ask
me when, hang on, I will just look, I can't remember.
POLICE
for the benefit of the tape I will mention what was arranged,
it has all been documented we asked Maxine last night,
after consulting with Mr James, to make a list of what
she had been doing from the 3rd August, up until you (inaudible)
came into police to discuss, yes?----"
MR JUDGE MOSES
You have done a list we have not seen. We have had no
access, and that's what you are referring to at the moment?
MR KHALIL
my Lord, that in fact is in this grey bundle behind tab
6 of those notes. I don't think we now need to go to them,
that's the document in due course. That's the note Miss
Carr was referring to and for the remainder of these interviews
as well "Thursday
POLICE
Thursday, 15th August.
CARR
right. Washed my curtains, the same day went to the public
meeting at the college.
POLICE
right, so you----
CARR
you bundle them in the washing machine - your normal washing
powder do you or----
CARR
I have tablets, I do have tablets sometimes but at the
minute I'm just using powder out of a box a box of (inaudible)
there, I think a box of Surf Fresh.
POLICE
you have done that. Anything else you have done? You say
you are cleaning the house daily so I presume - when would
be the last time you cleaned the house?
CARR
the morning.
POLICE
the Friday?
CARR
the police officer came round, yes.
POLICE
you say - I think I am right in saying - but just to clarify
what you said you have cleaned most days since you have
been there?
CARR
Yes, I put the curtains back up on Friday as well as just
before the officers came.
POLICE
did you have a lot to do after you came back from up north?
CARR
well, Ian doesn't know how to use a Hoover; there was
pots in the sink, not that many, Sadie obviously would
have been on heat, but Ian is not going to go round with
a scouring pad and clean the bathroom. I had all that
to do, the floors and everything. I had my own washing,
and I have washing for Ian to do as well. you know, just
generally sort of, just generally getting it back in order
- how I have it.
POLICE
what was different about how you would have it, what had
he done basically?
CARR
What had he done, don't bother to wash up leaves his pots
on the side of the draining board. you know there are
crumbs on the side, things like that, you know, just basically
the living room you know, just slouches about on the couch,
not bothered. I always make sure it is all pushed in,
he has got a couch there all laid out whatever, where
he has been laid on the couch.
POLICE
how do you mean laid out?
CARR
you know, a three piece suite, he has been laid out on
the sofa, the cushions are down you know, when you slouch
on the couch and the cushion aren't where they should
be, sort of thing. He has been slobbing about; he is not
one of those these who puts them up before he goes to
work, having a glass of something where he had a drink
and that and crisp packets, and sweet bags, chocolates,
down there where he has been watching telly, his ash stray.
He is not one of those who goes round after himself and
does it. I do all of that.
POLICE
is there any other differences to the police, I think
you mentioned yesterday, the bath?
CARR
yes, the bath I was going to say something to do with
the light switch.
POLICE
the light as well wasn't there?
CARR
yes, the light in the dining room had come down there
was all like water run on, water run on the ceiling, the
carpet was all wet.
POLICE
which carpet?
CARR
the dining room. he had to take them down they were like
three, three spot lights. so he had to take them down.
should be cluster sort of thing from the centre from the
roof. just like a long bar three spot lights going in
different directions?
POLICE
yes, got you. they are?
CARR
they are in the office but where it should be in an office,
they are in there, that's about it really. still all water
you can see all water marks down the wall where it has
come through and the carpets are with the wet.
POLICE
did he do anything about cleaning the carpet?
CARR
I don't think he as even bothered, to be honest with you
because I mean, I mean I put, when I went in to clean
it and then all the way through the week, I sort of like
put my hand on it and it smells musty and wet and damp.
I probably put Shake and Vac down. I hope it will freshen
it a bit. Its not dying down so it probably won't. it
needs to completely dry, something else to go down, its
soaked through.
POLICE
has it affected the bathroom at all then, this water?
CARR
just the, no, just the crack, right round the side of
the bath and even when Ian put sealant on the bath there
was drips coming?
POLICE
I don't know what the bath is like, has he not had the
side, the panel off or anything?
CARR
no, to have----?
POLICE
to have a look in there?
CARR
not as far as I know. all he has done is put sealant around
the top. I presume it is coming down through the floor
boards, I don't know anything about how they paint houses,
all I know, just put fixative down, sealant from the school.
one of those gun things until we can get the plumber to
get us another bath.
POLICE
its obviously, I mean, how big this patch of water on
the carpet underneath it on the, I will the words out
in a minute, from----.
CARR
from the dining room, say this pool a bit there from where
the lights are in the middle of the room down from the
lights so below the----
POLICE
so, below the lights?
CARR
yes.
POLICE
directly below the light would you say?
CARR
yes but like water marks.
POLICE
down the wall as well?
CARR
along the walls, along the ceiling, along the crack in
the crack lines across the ceiling,
POLICE
right. There is water marks?
CARR
About the size of the patch of the carpet downstairs.
Its not that big, sort of like directly down sort of thing,
not spread out everywhere.
POLICE
I mean is it like, I mean just to use, we have got a bin
in here would you say it is as wide as that is or would
it be bigger?
CARR
a lot bigger.
POLICE
how much would you say?
CARR
about as wide is this table.
POLICE
the table, how wide you would you say the table is?
CARR'S SOLICITOR
The length of the table?
POLICE
yes.
CARR'S SOLICITOR
Two foot 6.
CARR
that would be about right. I would say in that area anyway.
I don't know the exact measurement.
POLICE
you say that's still wet?
CARR
still wet.
POLICE
even up to Friday?
CARR
yes, still wet and the smell, it feels damp and smelly.
POLICE
what have you done with - you say used some Shake and
Vac?
CARR
I put Shake and Vac - you can't really put anything like,
can't put anything down until it has dried out properly.
I just sort of did that I think it started smelling musty
so I opened the windows and everything.
POLICE
did you try and dry it at all with anything?
CARR
I didn't know what to do I with it. I presumed it would
dry. I didn't think about the carpet to be honest there
was too much going on.
POLICE
that's true. okay. I didn't know they still sell Shake
and Vac to be honest, they still sell that?
CARR
yes its still on the go I think, yes, I know it is. I
buy that most of the time yes, used to have Neutradol.
POLICE
Neutradol, what is that?
CARR
just a bit stronger than Shake and Vac - it gets rid of
dog odour and stuff.
POLICE
the same stuff, sort of thing. what do you do with that
same thing, bundle it all on the carpet?
CARR
yes, powder and go in and clean it up.
POLICE
do you have to leave it down for any length of time?
CARR
couple of minutes.
POLICE
I don't think it makes much difference anyway, it is only
coming out of your Hoover, so?
POLICE
that's on your shopping list every week, is it?
CARR
air freshener, yes.
POLICE
air freshener. what air freshener do you use; I get Neutradol?
POLICE
the same brand.
CARR
Yes, the blue cap for tobacco and dog odour and cooking
odour.
POLICE
and the rats.
CARR
just stronger than normal.
POLICE
you mentioned bleach, what sort of bleach do you use?
CARR
35p from Tesco, like water stuff, thin bleach, the thing
you get for about 35p like water. You can get thick stuff
as well. I always used to get the thin stuff like.
POLICE
like Domestos?
CARR
thin stuff, and if I run out of Flash I just put some
in the water and dilute it and use it.
POLICE
what other cleaning agents have you got in your little
cupboard, whatever it is, where do you keep your cleaning
stuff?
CARR
under the sink in the kitchen. Sometimes I get antibacterial
spray, Mr Muscle, or something like that, but I have been
getting Flash. I like the smell better than spray things.
The reason I get spray things is you can carry it round
with you, you don't have to dilute it down. Yes, I would
use that sort of thing.
POLICE
anything else?
CARR
trying to think what I----
POLICE
anything for your windows?
CARR
joking aren't you - I don't touch the windows.
POLICE
who does the windows?
CARR
window cleaner.
POLICE
inside as well?
CARR
Nobody does them inside, I just wipe them over, I don't
like cleaning downstairs.
POLICE
How do you wipe them over?
CARR
just with a cloth and water I will. I don't buy anything
to put on them. I don't even think about the windows.
I do the frames and the windows can stay as they are -
I'm not bothered.
POLICE
are they double glazed?
CARR
Yes.
POLICE
do you smoke?
CARR
I don't.
POLICE
obviously Ian smokes?
CARR
yes.
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