27/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Thursday, 27 November 2003
SKY News

Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.

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POLICE
I would have thought at least when people have smoked in the car, the cars were used - somebody has been smoking in it before, and the you can see a film across the inside of the glass. Have you not experienced that?

CARR
Oh look, I'm not that house proud.

POLICE
how do you know the window cleaner cleans the outside if you can't see out?

CARR
I don't even know if he does do the flaming out outside - he always comes where we are out.

POLICE
who does it?

CARR
man from the village I don't know his name, the regular window cleaner.

POLICE
you don't have Kevin Wells then?

CARR
No he has offered to do our windows when we first moved down, we didn't say anything about it, sort of all right, then we'll think about it and then we was desperate to get the windows cleaned because they were, I think the bloke said you know, ever been tempted to use----

POLICE
ever been tempted to use any school cleaning equipment Jeyes cleaning fluid?

CARR
I guess you probably use some of the cleaning stuff what have you, you know the school and college. When we first moved down to get the place sorted out, Shake and Vac and scourers and a big vat of, big like what you carry a petrol can thing of washing up liquid, industrial washing up liquid. it was supposed to last----

POLICE
that was when you first moved with Ian?

CARR
Yes and gloves.

POLICE
what sort of gloves?

CARR
yellow ones.

POLICE
like Marigold things?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
rubber gloves?

CARR
that's about it really. bin bags.

POLICE
do you normally wear Marigolds when you do your cleaning?

CARR
should do but I don't.

POLICE
dish pan hands then have you?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
what about since when you moved in?

CARR
the only time I have used them is----

POLICE
have you ever used school stuff?

CARR
no. The only time I have used Marigolds since then is when I clean the rats out, so I don't have to pick them up.

MR BRAMWELL
Mr- the officer said we talked about Carr said - the top of page 84?

POLICE
we talked about the car. I think you said the Fiesta, talked about cleaning to the (inaudible) what is normally in the car as a rule, a map?

CARR
a map, paper.

POLICE
papers?

CARR
for the car?

POLICE
sorry documents?

CARR
yes, yes we have got a torch since we moved down here the flaming car broke down at the roundabout and we had nothing. I don't know what, something for the tyre or something, I think for the tyre I don't know what it is a contraption thing.

POLICE
like a jack?

CARR
yes, something like that to jack the car up if you get a flat tyre, there is at the back of the car.

POLICE
that's for the spare tyre I suppose is it?

CARR
no on the cover over the spare tyres cover; the cover of the spare tyre, its on there with the torch and that's about it really.

POLICE
right. is that underneath because they have a base usually don't they?

CARR
I don't know, what is your car like?

POLICE
well, when you open the boot up, there is just your cover are carpet sort of thing and if you pull the cover do you have your tyre underneath?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
where is the jack and everything?

CARR
on the cover over the tyre?

POLICE
but underneath so you can't see it when opening the boot first off? When you open the boot it is there?

CARR
right?

POLICE
you see in front of you?

CARR
Yes, but you can't see it any other time, just in where you put your shopping.

POLICE
okay. anything else in the boot you can think of, do you have anything like a first-aid kit in there or anything or----?

CARR
no, probably some WD 40, we keep that in there.

POLICE
anything else for car repairs on the hoof?

CARR
no, we don't have a petrol can or anything like that.

CARR
Sorry? You don't?

CARR
we don't have a petrol can or anything like that; we should have. his dad always says you should have a petrol can in it, you never know what is to happen to you, and that's about it really.

POLICE
anything else you can think of stuffed under the seats or down the pockets?

CARR
probably Tesco receipts, chocolate bar wrappers probably, nothing really to write home about?

POLICE
you mentioned yesterday in relation to the car being cleaned, you said about the dashboard being cleaned?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
was it just specifically the dashboard?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
or was there any other part of the car you cleaned as well?

CARR
no. Just the dashboard end - thick with dust and goody wrappers and things and spiders crawling on the front window.

POLICE
had the outside been cleaned did you notice?

CARR
not that I noticed, not that I asked if it had been cleaned.

POLICE
we'll perhaps carry that on?

CARR
fine, okay."

MR BRAMWELL
the buzzer goes. The interview is concluded, new tapes put it in. "

POLICE
does Ian have any relationships with children at the school?

CARR
not relationships with kids at school. I know he has contact with children at the school. There are boys, older boys, that do helping, the chairs and stuff like that when they are having a big say production or play or having their final Assembly at Christmas or summer. they have to set the sports hall up, so there are a few boys he can call in, they are reliable to do this job really. they, that's the only sort of contact he has with children; he finds very, he doesn't want to have any contact with children because of the job he is in. you know what I mean. he is very wary about - we have got a neighbour, Emily she's 14, she loves to come round and see my dog, but Ian doesn't like it. If she is in, well, if I am not there, he will tell her to come back later on when I'm there, because he doesn't want anybody putting two and two together and getting six. thinking he has just (inaudible) girl in the house, I'm always there when Emily comes round. That's just to safeguard himself really.

POLICE
why does he do that?

CARR
Because of what the previous caretaker was like, people have seen the previous caretaker letting girls from the college out at half five in the morning. They made a complaint to the principal and the principal started looking into it and all of a sudden the girls' father came forward, said he had been giving her money, touching her or whatever so Ian didn't want to be in that sort of boat. he just wanted to go in and do this job and not have contact with the kids.

POLICE
so when you are there and children come round, does he allow them into his house?

CARR
I normally let them in. she comes round to see me. I am the one she comes to see, Sadie, she will sit on the mat and stroke the dog.

POLICE
are you talking about your neighbour?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
is there any other children that come round?

CARR
my other neighbour, but she always comes round with her mum. she came round last week, sort of thing, she just come back off holiday and taken some time out.

MR BRAMWELL
new tapes put in, officer asks?

POLICE
has Ian ever expressed interest in children, sexual interest?

CARR
no.

POLICE
what about you, do you have any sexual interest?

CARR
No, no thank you, no.

POLICE
what do you think about me asking that question?

CARR
I think its disgusting.

POLICE
ever discuss anything like that with Ian?

CARR
No. I wasn't with him when what's his name, when the little boy was killed by those two boys, I wasn't with him then or anything else to discuss.

MR BRAMWELL
solicitor says is that Jamie Bulger, the solicitor says we were speaking about? Yes Jamie Bulger in the break.

CARR
Sarah Payne. His mum talked to me about it. His mum was quite upset about Sarah Payne she kept getting the paper and reading about it, but me and Ian never talked about Sarah Payne.

POLICE
why not?

CARR
just, doesn't come in any interest. I know it sounds horrible but she was not relevant to me or our lives, but so there is no need to talk about it. his mum, she was very concerned. she is very concerned really when anything happens to any child or anything like that she kept getting the paper every day to see if they had found anything and stuff I mean. As with Holly and Jess, you get the paper every day because you know the kids, but if you don't know them, you're not that bothered as if you would be if you knew them. You are concerned they are missing but not as much as you would do if you knew them.

POLICE
as his mum was upset about Sarah Payne, what were Ian's view.

CARR
nothing really.

POLICE
Nothing at all?

CARR
may say some B word probably got them they want shooting or whatever, in general what other people say they want castrating people like that. That's the view we have of people like that sexually or killing or anything like that kind of people to do with children.

POLICE
you said we?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
are your views the same?

CARR
they are, yes.

POLICE
have you discussed it at some point?

CARR
we had to discuss it this week, these two weeks we have had to discuss you know, do we think they have run away? they are not the kind of kids to run away all these sort of things mulling over in my head. is there anything they said to me, anything that might, is their home life not as it should be, stuff like that. those questions have been going round in my head all the time, sat there particularly when they found the badger sets or whatever it was you found. I thought it had come to an end, that was the end it was a long night waiting to see what you did find.

POLICE
Ian was concerned about the Press that side of things. What did he actually think about the girls going missing?

CARR
it upset him a lot. He says he keeps seeing their situation in his head when they were stood talking to him and I can see having to go past the shop window, getting flash backs at school things .... if he was the last person to speak to them, he could probably have stopped them from getting, going, what have they were doing short of thing.

POLICE
he was the last person to speak to them?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
he could have killed them?

CARR
no, he couldn't.

POLICE
why?

CARR
because he wouldn't do anything like that, he wouldn't hurt anybody.

POLICE
how do you know that?

CARR
I know him inside out, he's a very emotional person, he wouldn't have the strength of mind or anything like that to go through with it.

POLICE
you were at your mum's all at the time when all this was happening. how do you know 100 per cent that Ian was not involved?

CARR
I can't say 100 per cent, all I can say is that I know Ian, I know Ian better than you or anybody here, or anybody else knows Ian probably - better than his mum probably. like she said, he's not the kind of person to go and do and, he doesn't like fighting, he doesn't like anything like that. he's not a malicious person, he is not a violent person. I just can't see any particular reason he can be accused of anything like that. he just wouldn't do it.

POLICE
How would you react if the end of this inquiry it was found out it was Ian?

CARR
I know you wouldn't find it is Ian, it would take a lot of (inaudible) two ten years old. .

MR JUSTICE MOSES
can you read that again you got the negatives the wrong way round? "

CARR
in actual fact it wouldn't take a lot of violence with two ten years olds, would it? no, I don't mean that in that sense, I mean in general. he doesn't like fighting of any kind, he doesn't like big crowds in situations, pubs, things like that where fights may occur. he doesn't like fighting, full stop. He doesn't like drunks, he doesn't like anything like that. He is just a very quiet, if that's a bad thing, a very quiet person who likes to keep things to himself?

POLICE
why do you think you and him have been arrested?

CARR
I don't know why we have been arrested apart from knowing these girls.

POLICE
you have seen a lot of press, you have been in the press yourself why?

CARR
a lot - because a lot of people know Holly and Jessica.

POLICE
Yes. So it's not that reason, why do you think you have been arrested?

CARR
I really don't know, I don't know.

POLICE
with your telling us about your relationship with Ian, and you told me you are very (inaudible) you want to be with - what would have you done if you had come back from Grimsby and Ian had taken the two children?

CARR
I would have took them back. I wouldn't have done anything. No, I wouldn't have played along with anything, if that's what you think.

POLICE
No? Would you protect him?

CARR
I wouldn't protect him against a charge you are throwing at me and him - abduction, murder or anything like that. All I did was protect Ian from the past, I protected him from people slagging him off about the past. That was nothing, you know, that is all I protected Ian from.

POLICE
let's talk about that then. Why did you do that?

CARR
I have to see his family and I have to see Ian. If you see your partner, the person you love, all a sudden somebody from Grimsby rings and says do you know he has been accused of this before, and the police are going to target everything at him, you know, he is frightened. No, I wouldn't protect him, he wouldn't expect me to protect him from anything like that. all he has ever told me to do is to tell you the truth. which is why I changed my statement. I told you the truth. If he didn't want me to tell you the truth he would have pleaded and pleaded, asked me to lie for him but he didn't, he's very open about everything he has done, very open about how he has helped and everything, so that's it, to do something like that, I mean, look at Ian when he went before to prison and was wrongly accused of rape, he had a nervous breakdown. If he killed somebody do you really think he would be walking around doing his job being happy 'cos that's not the kind of person he is, he is a very emotional person, he would have fallen apart if anything, if anything like that had happened - just the fact of what he had been through before, it was what he had been through before - it affects him very badly. it has affected him being banged up somewhere and all of a sudden a police officer turns up after about two and a half months and says we have got CCTV camera footage of you on. I didn't want that to happen, I couldn't see him going through that again. I didn't meant to be a liar in that sense. I know he didn't have anything to do with- if he had something to do it, I would have told you the truth anyway.

POLICE
you love him?

CARR
yes but I wouldn't lie about a murder. I wouldn't lie about two kids. I know I do love him but he wouldn't do those things.

POLICE
have you lied about this investigation about two kids?

CARR
I'm not lying about it. I have told you the truth now about things- about all my whereabouts. Ian never asked me to lie about anything. I did it because I couldn't see him go through it. I couldn't see him go through it. that's the only reason I told him I was here.

POLICE
perhaps he didn't ask you, perhaps he suggested to you?

CARR
he didn't suggest anything to me.

POLICE
I want you to be very certain about what you are saying. Did Ian ask you to suggest to the police?

CARR
no.

POLICE
when did Ian get to find out what you had put in your statement?

CARR
after I got out this morning after I had done the statement.

POLICE
you made the statement to the police officers then you discussed it with Ian, what did Ian say?

CARR
Ian said "You have lied to them now. What are you going to do now?" That was basically his reaction. you shouldn't have done that.

MR JUSTICE MOSES
shall we break off there.

{short adjournment}.

CARR
they are likely to find out you were not where you were, where you say you are. You are going to mess it all up. He suggested I just tell you the truth, even then I just couldn't- just seeing him at the Holiday Inn, he was telling me to tell them the truth, so I came in and told you.

POLICE
Ian may want to tell us what happened?

CARR
What do you mean, what happened?

POLICE
if Ian committed these offences, abduction and murder, he may want you to----

MR JUSTICE MOSES
can we pause, can you tell people to keep quiet. go on. "

CARR
I told you everything about that. I don't know anything about it.

POLICE
Because if he has committed these offenses, then maybe he needs help, and maybe that is why he was saying to you that you should tell the police?

CARR
I want to tell you the truth he has not committed the offences.

POLICE
so Ian, your partner, who you think a lot of - you are making a future together, he has said to you to come to he police and to tell the truth?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
why do you not then tell us?

CARR
because of that reason. I didn't want the finger to be pointed at Ian because at that point Ian was the last person to have seen them.

POLICE
do you not think the attention has brought more towards Ian?

CARR
I know if it has now, because of what he has done I know it has now.

POLICE
obviously a lot of investigation and a lot of time went into looking at that side of things, what if Ian had done something really stupid?

CARR
what do you mean?

POLICE
were the girls in your house when you got home?

CARR
no, they weren't in the house when I got home because if something had----.

POLICE
because if something had happened and they had died, they would need to be taken somewhere because Ian doesn't want to go to prison does he?

CARR
No, he doesn't.

POLICE
did you have any involvement?

CARR
No, I didn't have any involvement in anything to do with these girls in any shape or form the last time I saw Holly Wells was on her last day of term and Jessica the week before she went on holiday, wherever she went on holiday to, and that's it.

POLICE
the officer said, I think my colleague said, you need to be careful, think about your answers before you give them. There are lots of inquiries that have been going on, whilst you have been here and we you want to give your account of what has been happening, because if all you have done is to make a false statement initially, then we can see why you have done that. Inquiries asked you as they are and it transpires you know something more and you are involved in it, it is very very difficult assisting somebody in any offence like this. Its same as committing the offence, my colleague has already said to you are you trying to protect Ian?

CARR
No I'm not trying to protect Ian in any shape or form.

POLICE
do you know anything about the disappearance of these girls?

CARR
No, I don't.

POLICE
have you had any involvement in getting rid of these girls?

CARR
no.

POLICE
are you aware of anybody else who has had any involvement?

CARR
no.

POLICE
are you scared of Ian?

CARR
no.

POLICE
is there anything that has happened in your relationship which makes you feel intimidated by him?

CARR
no.

POLICE
who would you say wears the trousers?

CARR
neither of us.

POLICE
so describe to me your relationship, how it works?

CARR
just a team effort I suppose, we go to work, he works really hard, I work really hard. I look after Ian he looks after me, that's it really, a team effort, no-one is any more important than the other.

POLICE
if there are decisions to be made, who makes the decisions?

CARR
we make our own decisions.

POLICE
what if you were making a joint decision about for example something you were going to purchase for the house?

CARR
it would be a joint decision, it wouldn't be anyone would have the final say, that has----

POLICE
that always has been the way in your relationship? Has there been violence in your relationship?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
Can you tell me about it?

CARR
if we have an argument - the day I went out, I wanted to go out somewhere with my mum to do something, I can't remember - he got quite angry with me and I was shouting at him and bantering at him. I can't really remember what the argument was about, but he just slapped me across the face, and that's the only thing that happened really. Because of my bone structure in my face, it bruised. It wasn't like a fist in my face or anything, just like a sort of slap sort of thing to shut me up really.

POLICE
how did you react to that?

CARR
shocked, it shook me up. He was very sorry about it, he just couldn't stand me banging on.

POLICE
when you say he couldn't stand you banging on, do you feel you deserved the slap you got then?

CARR
I can't answer that question. At the time I know I can understand the other side of it as well.

POLICE
did you accept his behaviour?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
did it ever happen again?

CARR
no.

POLICE
did you tell anybody about it?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
yes? Who did you tell?

CARR
A neighbour, Marisa.

POLICE
who was that Marisa? What was her advice?

CARR
she said generally stay down here until its all calmed down sort of thing.

POLICE
were you frightened?

CARR
no, I was more upset than anything else.

POLICE
when did that happen?

CARR
it must have been about 2000.

POLICE
where were you living at the time?

CARR
Scunthorpe.

POLICE
did you tell anybody else apart from Marisa?

CARR
No.

POLICE
Marisa has seen the bruise - which part of the body?

CARR
This cheek.

POLICE
You are indicating your right cheek?

CARR
the right cheek, yes.

POLICE
at any time in your relationship has Ian made you do anything you don't want to?

CARR
no.

POLICE
Not even if you put the, cooked the wrong thing for tea and he made you cook something else?

CARR
no.

POLICE
what would normally cause him to get angry?

CARR
(inaudible).

POLICE
when he gets angry what does he do?

CARR
Shouts, shouts about and storms off.

POLICE
does he ever lash out, not necessarily at you but lash out at an object or something like that?

CARR
no, he just sort of storms off and wants to be on his own.

POLICE
is there anything that ever affects his anger - alcohol?

CARR
no, not alcohol, no nothing like that, just if he was angry, you know, it is not fuelled by anything, the fact that alcohol, you just (inaudible) that was the----

POLICE
that was my next question what effect does alcohol have on him?

CARR
gets drunk and stupid then he loves everybody.

POLICE
when was the last time you saw him get angry at anything?

CARR
a long time ago, not recently.

POLICE
can't think of the anything in particular he gets angry about?

CARR
the last time he got angry when that lad tried to run him over on the motorbike, a young man. At college there was a production on a play and some kids on motor bikes turned up and were shouting abuse at old age pensioners, people going into the Hall and he had been ready to go over and get rid of them so he went over and asked them to leave which they did and (inaudible) to go over to the Beechurst to check everything was okay and everything, and there were these motor bikes at the top of the footpath and one lad drove straight at him. He had to jump into a bush to avoid him. He was angry he kept saying they were going to throw a brick through our window or do something to our dog.

POLICE
how many relationships did you have prior to Ian?

CARR
I seem to have had quite a lot of relationships since I have been here according to the press.

POLICE
I don't read the papers.

CARR
3."

MR BRAMWELL
interview concluded, Monday, 20th August. for the purpose of this in interview will several others, just (inaudible).

POLICE
your relationship with Ian?

CARR
okay.

POLICE
all right, I know you have been over a lot of this but some of the things I want to ask you are slightly different?

CARR
okay.

POLICE
some them just tidying up in my mind are answers you have given already, okay. yesterday in interview I think you said I think?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
what you did was to protect Ian from the past?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
is that right?

CARR
that's right.

POLICE
okay, past that was nothing?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
you remember saying that?

CARR
Nothing happened to him in the past, nothing was relevant you know, but what happened the fact it wasn't true or anything like that, but people still believe what they wanted to believe.

POLICE
when you say it wasn't true, how do you know that?

CARR
I know that from his parents, and know that from him. I don't know it from the police I have not asked the police, I had no reason to ask the police. I know from like his, when we got in he was going to touch with the police to ask if his name a was on file something like that and he was acquitted.

POLICE
so far as you were concerned that past was nothing over and done with finished?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
he was not responsible?

CARR
No.

POLICE
that was because he told you that?

CARR
Yes and the fact he was acquitted.

POLICE
(inaudible)?

CARR
yes we talked about it a lot, talked about knowing the circumstances around it everything, going to jail, going to a bail hostel, whatever. We talked about a quite lengthy process really, its a very a big part of his life for him and me. I only met him like three months after he had been released so it was still fresh in his mind. He was honest and open with me, then a couple of days later he told me, which didn't make you run for the door or anything, he just told me the truth and then we let me decide for myself you know whether I wanted anything to do with him or not.

POLICE
yes okay. can I talk about your trip to Grimsby?"

MR BRAMWELL
my Lord over the page to 98.

MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you.

MR BRAMWELL
pick up about half-way down the page 98, the second punch hole. "

POLICE
in the exchange in Grimsby?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
you had a good time with your mum?

CARR
very very funny.

POLICE
how did you feel that Ian wasn't there?

CARR
I don't like going out without Ian. You don't feel part of a couple, you know, but because I had my mum there, just a girly girly time really.

POLICE
did you phone him while you were out?

CARR
not while I was out, no.

POLICE
Did you phone him and tell him you were going out?

CARR
yes, he knew I was going out on the Saturday. I rang him on the Saturday - he just got back from shopping and just got to get shopping in, everything, was putting stuff away, micro chips and that away in the fridge freezer.

POLICE
how do you know that?

CARR
Because I rang him.

POLICE
how do you know he was putting stuff in the freezer?

CARR
he was telling me on the phone.

CARR
Yes, to visit my grandad about two o'clock , I spoke to the bus driver on the way there. I was talking to him on the way there about why the company changed it used to be (inaudible) buses and its not now, chatting with my grandad, cups of tea, then my uncle came the other uncle, the one that lived with my grandad, uncle George came in bout 4.20 had just finished work and just sat chatting. Not long after that Ian rang.

POLICE
what time?

CARR
I would say 25 to 5, something like that. They had not been there that long.

POLICE
what did he say?

CARR
telling me who the girls were and everything like that. I am to watch it on TV. I asked him you know where are they. He said the police think they have run away, so I went and got, I got off the phone, I put Teletext on at my grandad's and we were all watching Teletext.

POLICE
how did you feel when he told you how who they were?

CARR
horrified, 'cos I knew they wouldn't run away. I thought where are they they - could be in ditches or anything around there. I kept thinking well she can swim.

POLICE
what did you think had happened?

CARR
I didn't know.

POLICE
What was your first reaction?

CARR
all I could think of was they haven't run away. I thought they had probably got trapped somewhere.

POLICE
your first reaction was a bad one, a feeling something bad had happened to them?

CARR
yes, when kids go missing and don't come back all night something is wrong, isn't it, and nobody can get hold of them at somebody's house, and we put the TV on and watched that on Teletext, came home on the bus, the bus at 5.20, 5.27.

POLICE
you spoke to the bus driver, didn't you?

CARR
yes, I spoke to the bus driver on the way back, talked about it actually and about football and about the kids round the street, that they are out at all hours and stuff. Got back to my mum at 10 past 6. told her about the kids. I felt sick, I was laid on the couch. I felt sick and I told her.

POLICE
physically sick?

CARR
I felt physically sick. I said to my mum, I want to go home, mum, I have got to go home, my mum said, oh no, you don't need - stop it, they will be all right and that and----

POLICE
why did you feel you had to go home, Maxine?

CARR
I just wanted to go home to find out what is going on, just had to, I couldn't, couldn't sit there watching television, so I rang Ian up and told him I wanted - I want to come home. He told me there were press and everybody, everybody's there.

POLICE
where was he when you rang him up?

CARR
he was at home when he rang me early in the afternoon and told me who it was and everything. He also told me he was the last person to speak to them. the police said he was the last person to speak to them, which was another thing making me feel sick as well. Not because I thought he had done anything but all, you know, everything really. .

POLICE
do you think he has done something now Maxine?

CARR
no I don't think he has done something now, sorry if that's the wrong answer but I don't think he as done anything.

POLICE
there are no right and wrong answers I asked you what you felt?

CARR
no he hasn't. I told him to come and get me he said he would have to sort it out with Ruth or Michael so he could come and get me which Ruth did, Ruth took the phone everything and said----.

POLICE
what time was that you rang him?

CARR
my sister got me at 7 o'clock it would have been 20 to 7, something like that.

POLICE
what was he doing then?

CARR
nothing. Just at home. I just spoke to him, I didn't ask him what he was doing.

POLICE
Did you hear him doing anything?

CARR
he wasn't in that freezer getting out.

POLICE
(inaudible)

CARR
no, he was just at home, he was at home I didn't hear if the telly was on, or whether there was background noise and Sadie was there, he was talking to her. my sister and brother-in-law and niece arrived at my mum's at 7 and stopped until about half 8. I went to bed, said to my mum I feel sick I'm going to bed I don't feel very well' and went to bed around half 9. My mum was watching something about a woman who had been killed and put down a drain or something years go, that was on TV that was what she was watching I said I don't want to watch any of that, some sort of thing a mystery thing I said 'No I'm going to bed', I said. 'I don't feel very good' then Ian rang the phone, my mum brought the phone and said 'Its Ian, Ian is on the phone', and he had rang to say he arranged to come in the morning at some point, at sometime, he didn't know when; I had to stay in the house until he got there sort of thing. then I went to bed and that's that then.

POLICE
okay, the next day,?

CARR
Tuesday got up, had coffee with my mum, chatted, my mum was quite worried about when Ian going to turn up. She only has one key to the house and she didn't want me to be stood outside with my bags.

POLICE
How did you feel that morning?

CARR
the first thing we did was put teletext on and watch the news.

POLICE
how did you feel?

CARR
hopeful there was going to be something on the news.

POLICE
what do you mean, hopeful there was going to be?

CARR
hopeful that they were going say oh they had been at somebody's house, or they had been found you know, had hurt a leg or something. I don't know, just found out it was only a prank and they had gone to someone's house, which deep down in the back of my mind I didn't think would be there because the fact of the kids; the way they are with their parents. They love their families and everything and always bring photographs of their families in.

POLICE
Deep down, deep down in the back of your mind, what did you think had happened to these girls Holly and Jess?

CARR
I can't specifically say oh they have been got or whatever, but something had happened, something not everyday that happened, not to have got in touch with their parents by mobile phone or- Anyway I rang Ian to see if he was on his way because my mum was getting on. When I spoke to him he was, he had to pull over because I rang his phone and he, nobody answered. I rang it again, and he was going on the motorway he could hear the cars going and he said just coming to Sleaford he said he would be about 40 minutes. He arrived about 12 o'clock, he sat down had a cup of tea and biscuits and that with my mum.

POLICE
came in the Fiesta didn't he?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
anything different about the Fiesta?

CARR
no.

POLICE
to how it usually is?

CARR
no , I don't think it had been washed or anything , I know the inside of it had polish on the dash board, polish on the dash board and no rubbish.

POLICE
is there usually then?

CARR
yes, normally there is, there is normally in the past God knows three months there has been a bag of chocolate slowly melting and disintegrating.

POLICE
what do you mean chocolate eclairs?

CARR
chocolate eclairs.

POLICE
you mean Cadburys?

CARR
cadburys, chocolate yes, toffee.

POLICE
toffee with chocolate inside?

CARR
yes a bag of them, slowly slowly melting and sticking to the inside of the glove compartment.

POLICE
they were gone were they?

CARR
all gone, all that was left was just the wrappers, papers he needed for his car, there was still receipts, Tesco's and all sorts, just chuck them in there when we finished at Tesco, lipstick, my lipstick and general stuff you chuck in there to get it all-out of the way. that was it really. still map on the back seat, stick (inaudible) on the back seat.

POLICE
did you think anything unusual the fact the car had had a tidy out?

CARR
no I thought it was really about time and all, no, not unusual I mean before we moved to -.

POLICE
that was not one of the things he was going to do while you were away?

CARR
no.

POLICE
He had not said that had he?

CARR
no, when we was at West Street he used to take real pride, (inaudible) a real pride in his car. He used to always get it cleaned, and he was always, I was always getting the Hoover out and Hoovering it and----

POLICE
you don't Hoover the Fiesta?

CARR
I never touched the Fiesta.

POLICE
you haven't?

CARR
no.

POLICE
what about Ian? Does Ian clean the Fiesta out then?

CARR
he only washes it.

POLICE
does he?

CARR
I don't think it has been done out inside.

POLICE
apart from?

CARR
Apart from probably when we first got it I got the polish out - that's it.

POLICE
so what time did he arrive at?

CARR
12.

POLICE
about 12 o'clock?

CARR
My mum's neighbour, Marion, I went out to the car to get to see him like, and she was coming in with her son, son or daughter, I think it is her son, she had a kid with her, she was walking past and said hello to me and Ian, went in the house, had a cup of tea and something to eat. I went down to the shop at the bottom of my mum's road and got my mum and Ian a Caramel bar, Cadburys Caramel bar, and myself a Lucozade, brought it back, my mum caught the bus around half 12, 20 to one but Ian said he would take her to work watched the news----

POLICE
why?

CARR
to see if anything had come up I wanted to watch. I had Teletext on all morning - I wanted to watch the news.

POLICE
for Holly and Jess?

CARR
yes, and then, we took my mum to work about one o'clock. As soon as we dropped my mum off at work we left Grimsby on A16 that way, stopped at a cafeteria in Landrig for a drink and just to buy a drink and go to the toilet. When we arrived home, I think about four, four-ish sometime, found the press and police everywhere outside.

POLICE
when you are on the way home did you pick up a hitchhiker?

CARR
yes, we did, we picked up one of those men - the car sites, number plates.

POLICE
Number plates?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
a car delivery man?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
what happened when you arrived home then? Just tea, that's it, spent most time watching television, watching Teletext. Ian went ... did all my washing, Ian's washing, tidied all up after, there was obviously the bathroom and that was, with the crack in the bath and everything, he had obviously, he had had the dog in there so there were flaming hairs and stuff, having to wipe all the skirting boards and off the radiator when she stuck to it, to get everything tidied up really .

POLICE
Ian was out. Okay, did Ian seem----?

CARR
he was okay.

POLICE
had the disappearance of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman affected him?

CARR
not in an open way no. The only time I mean he was, it is the first time I upset him was when he saw Kevin, he was actually in the press room at the Hall when they had a press conference there with parents and had a press conference talking about people searching in rivers and streams and said he didn't know what to say. He came towards him to walk out and Ian wanted to go up to him and speak to him and say you know our best wishes but he couldn't say anything. He said "Hello, how are you? -Okay?" and that's it sort of thing. you don't know what to say to people I suppose.

POLICE
I can understand that. what day is that?

CARR
Wednesday.

POLICE
how were you feeling by Wednesday?

CARR
still hopeful, still sat there hoping there was no reason not to just- some of the things up in my head, they haven't run away, can't have run away, why hasn't the phone been found, why haven't they rang home, why haven't they done this; why haven't they done that, just generally trying to be a detective in my own head sort of thing, think of things they might have said to me at school if they had been upset school about anything but nothing, there was nothing.

POLICE
There is a BBC news producer called Tom Fredricks Maxine, preparing for the Ten O'clock Newsnight in the college grounds about 8 o'clock. It was dark he remembered he was talking in the college in the school and was taken by surprise by two people who suddenly appeared from a gate?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
and he saw a man who had keys in the house with a woman, was that you and Ian?

CARR
I don't know, I don't know.

POLICE
can you remember going anywhere else on Tuesday?

CARR
no, I don't think , I don't think, no.

POLICE
you don't remember that?

CARR
no I don't remember seeing anybody or walking around.

POLICE
do you- you don't remember walking round?

CARR
I don't remember walking round, seeing anybody or anything like that.

POLICE
had you been taking the dog out?

CARR
Well he would have seen the dog if the dog had been there.

POLICE
so you didn't take the dog out when you got home on Tuesday?

CARR
I don't think so.

POLICE
Okay you don't think that was you and Ian?

CARR
I don't, I can't remember, I don't think so.

POLICE
talking to the television man?

CARR
I can't remember talking to an ITN man.

POLICE
BBC?

CARR
whatever , I can't remember talking to him.

POLICE
so I?

CARR
sorry where were we.

POLICE
on the Wednesday? ?

CARR
yes, Thursday morning had an appointment at the Job Centre in Ely, half nine, I got out of there, I was walking, waiting for the bus to come. They changed the bus times, normally go out quarter past the hour, they changed them to 40 minutes past the hour, so I was trying to kill 25 minutes time looking the shops. I went to visit thingummybob's, something in Ely, his mum and dad came, shouted at me, asked if I'm okay. I said yes, Ian's----

POLICE
Ian's mum and dad?

CARR
Ian's mum and dad, yes, (inaudible) seen me in the street, walking into this place, didn't want to shout, so many people about, didn't want to shout Maxine, they came and said Maxine. We went for a coffee in the Coffee Mill a couple of doors down and his dad said he would give me a lift back to Soham instead of me waiting for the bus. We had a coffee and chat about what generally was going on. On the morning when I was in there I went into the Coffee Mill in the morning before I had my appointment. At the bus stop there about 20 past 8.

POLICE
the press make you angry?

CARR
they make me yes, yes they do. at the beginning I spoke to them.

POLICE
you spoke to the press?

CARR
we spoke to the press. We know Jess and Holly; I had a card from Holly, fine, speak to the press, the press what kind of kids they were in school when you were at the school, what things they are into, stuff like that. you know, if they have ever told you anything which is ... go on the television screen, you know I spoke to.

POLICE
who said that to you?

CARR
BBC, I done it for the BBC.

POLICE
how did you feel about that?

CARR
sick, angry, because they are trying to pull you into a corner really, making you look like something you are not. We had got, the assistant caretaker came over and said, look, this is what we have heard. They came to us and said to us is there anything dodgy in you and Maxine's past for not to want to go on television.

POLICE
who said that?

CARR
Michael, Michael said that's what the press said to him and Ruth, and they had been asking questions saying how----

POLICE
How do you feel about that then?

CARR
angry, upset as well - made me very upset.

POLICE
why?

CARR
because I hadn't done anything, I have not got a past. Why should I have to go in front of millions of people on television to talk.

POLICE
what about Ian?

CARR
if he doesn't want to go on TV that's his right.

POLICE
what did you think about Ian?

CARR
what do you mean? . did you want to protect him from the press?

CARR
if he didn't want to go on the TV, I would have, gone out there told them where to go, simple as that.

POLICE
you would have protected him?

CARR
from the press, yes.

POLICE
why?

CARR
because they can't intrude on people's lives like that. I never met any press before in my life, never spoken to any of that, any involvement with any, they were finally toward that week ground down from being normal. I felt like had been ground down into the floor and I know Ian felt the same, constant buzzing at the buzzer constant snap shots of the back fence, just everything and had upset me.

POLICE
made you angry?

CARR
Very upset, made me very angry when one of them came to the door and had about seven buzzers, been to the door 7 times, the last time this lady buzzed the buzzer I got up went to the door and said don't you people ever give up? She said sorry. I was crying at the time, I said you just keep asking and asking questions about these kids, I said, I'm giving the same answers over and over again I said why do I have to keep repeating myself over and over again to you, having to keep going on what I know about these kids, getting up and up all the time.

POLICE
so it was going on and on was it?

CARR
they were constantly on the buzzer all the time I said you know, I sort of said to her you are nothing but load of leeches and shut the door in her face and she actually called Ian over at the college and said she was a radio one reporter or something, this girl she said you know, I'm sorry for doing that, and I apologised to her for calling her a leech. I said its too much now, what would happen.

POLICE
what would happen if you didn't protect him?

CARR
He would protect himself.

POLICE
would he?

CARR
somebody had to go to the - couldn't live with that buzz buzz buzz all the time. felt.

POLICE
you felt you should do something to protect yourself?

CARR
yes I had to go out to protect Ian, said look we are not talking, it didn't work, we have not got nothing else to say, you have got people out there taking steps to talk to them, get information off them we cannot tall any more and we don't and you know, we have got one guy coming to the room to take a photo of me with Holly's card and he said we want to go and put you on the television, she doesn't want to go on television. why not? He wouldn't leave our house. He wouldn't go from our house and Ian said to him look we just don't want to go on TV. If you don't go on TV they will catch you anyway when you come out your door or something. You might as well give an interview on television. it got to the point where you were virtually having to say please just get out of my house.

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