27/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript Thursday, 27 November 2003
SKY News

Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced as they appear.

Page 01 02 03

POLICE
how was this making you feel?

CARR
I, I just I just felt like I was being pushed into a corner by this person, he was in our home, laying down the law to us, fine - if it had been a police officer coming in staying, we want you to give a statement whatever, yes, fine but when you have some reporter saying oh, well, yes, sorry to ... one way or the other, even if over the back fence, when you walk out the door - that's the kind of thing we had just had, just had enough of.

POLICE
what day was this?

CARR
the Thursday.

POLICE
Thursday?

CARR
Thursday the 8th August.

POLICE
Friday 9th do you remember anything about that?

CARR
yes, I think, I think it was Friday the 9th. I know it was, we went to (inaudible) with Kevin and Linda and arrived home just after 11 o'clock. we left getting on for five o'clock and they go to Hunstanton, a fishing port, quite often and said, you know, we'll give you chance to come and relax, get away from it all, going to go to their house anyway. That policeman, the policeman came round doing door-to-door, taking all your 'what is your neighbours called next door' and all that, he came round and then his mum rang and came round and said, look, we have have this police officer round and said and that and she said we are going out shortly.

POLICE
how did you feel when the policeman came round?

CARR
the policeman - just give him - that's it.

POLICE
not frightened or anything like that?

POLICE
How was Ian when the policeman came round?

CARR
he was fine.

POLICE
he was fine?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
well?

CARR
yes, then she rang, she rang, you know, to see how everything was going, it was all right.

POLICE
you weren't frightened?

CARR
no.

POLICE
when the policeman came round?

CARR
no, so, yes, she said, well, do you want to come with us for a ride round the seaside sort of thing, and so we said, well, yes, and she said do you want us to come there or do you want to come here, so we went there and we went in Kevin's car and went to Hunstanton first"

(UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER)

And the interview stops. new tapes were put in.

POLICE
before we stopped, we were talking about what, Friday 9th August. what happened that day?

CARR
just general, got up, Ian was at work, made his dinner. When he came at lunch time, and we had that police officer round in the afternoon, a police officer door to door doing inquiries, then his mam rang up to see how we were and everything, see if everything was okay and if anything had happened.

POLICE
Okay. When the policeman - sorry to interrupt - when the policeman came round doing the door to door inquiries you said he was asking about neighbours, things like that?

CARR
yesterday who lives next door you know, do you know how many people live next door.

POLICE
and you said you weren't frightened?

CARR
no.

POLICE
what did you say to that policeman?

CARR
just told him what he had asked me.

POLICE
yes, and what did he ask you, can you remember?

CARR
Hair, already did my hair, who lives next door.

POLICE
what he looked like?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
(unaudible)?

CARR
a description of me, and of what he looked like, main changes, a know, birth date and all that.

POLICE
did he ask you what you were doing on the 4th, Sunday, 4th August?

CARR
I think so, I think so.

POLICE
what did you say to him? I told him what I told you before which was that I was in Soham.

POLICE
that wasn't true was it?

CARR
no.

POLICE
what did you think about Ian?

CARR
what did I think about Ian.

POLICE
yes?

CARR
in relation to what?

POLICE
the reason you were saying that to the police?

CARR
Nothing he didn't make me do it.

POLICE
sorry?

CARR
He hasn't made me do it.

POLICE
he has not made you do it?

CARR
no I can't say you hate me because you made me lie to somebody.

POLICE
do you hate him now because he made you lie?

CARR
no he has not made me lie to anything.

POLICE
to protect him?

CARR
protect him yes.

POLICE
do you think you should be protecting him?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
why?

CARR
because he has not done anything wrong, I know you have been through loads of stuff earlier in the interview but I still in say the same position, Ian has done nothing wrong. I love him and it is just all wrong.

POLICE
this policeman who came did he write down what he told you?

CARR
Yes he had a sheet thing.

POLICE
was he on his own?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
do you know him?

CARR
I don't know him.

POLICE
how did you feel when he went that policeman, anything in particular?

CARR
Like I say, I didn't feel frightened when he came round or anything like that, just normal.

POLICE
you lied to him?

CARR
I had it made me feel anxious.

POLICE
anxious?

CARR
yes, but at the time I knew you were going to find something, your police officers were going to go and find somebody, some evidence and something for you know from somebody else and it would be irrelevant.

POLICE
what your lie would be irrelevant?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
so that is how you justified it to yourself did you?

CARR
that's how I justified it to myself, yes, because I know he has not done anything so I believe they will find something.

POLICE
you know?

CARR
we have not done anything.

POLICE
you and Ian together?

CARR
neither of us, either apart or together have not done anything.

POLICE
have you not done anything?

CARR
I haven't done anything, Ian has not done anything.

POLICE
how can you speak for what Ian has done when you are not with him?

CARR
I can't speak for him but I can speak for the----

POLICE
you can't?

CARR
for his manner, the way he is, I have had three and a half years with Ian and three and a half years of good, good relationship. we have had rows fine but nothing has ever made me think oh God I have got to get away from this man.

POLICE
okay the policeman filled in his form?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
what did you tell him your name was?

CARR
Maxine Carr.

POLICE
did he ask you if you have been married before?

CARR
He asked me if I was married.

POLICE
or was I married now?

CARR
no.

POLICE
you said no?

CARR
no I have not been married before.

POLICE
that was the truth, wasn't it?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
okay, were you there when he was asking you the same questions?

CARR
he asked Ian the questions first.

POLICE
did he?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
and with you both in the room together?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
did he ask Ian if he had any other names?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
did he, what did Ian say?

CARR
he told them about Nixon.

POLICE
Did he?

CARR
he got his change of name. He asked him if- .wanted to see the change of name haven't said no you are all right,.

POLICE
if he asked Ian first and Ian told him he was formerly Nixon why did----?

CARR
he asked me if he had any former names, he didn't ask me if I had any former names.

POLICE
when he asked you what you were doing that Sunday you answered that question as well didn't you?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
but you lied about that didn't you?

CARR
I did.

POLICE
yes, what did Ian say when the policeman left?

CARR
you shouldn't have done that.

POLICE
how did you feel about it then?

CARR
nothing about Ian in particular, it was just I was anxious about what I had done.

POLICE
why did you do it?

CARR
I did it because I wanted to, because didn't want you lot to put his past, bring his pasts up and say oh I- you know, point the finger.

POLICE
point the finger?

CARR
point the finger at this guy, you know there's nothing else to go on there you go.

POLICE
You didn't want to us point the finger at Ian?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
I think used that idea, didn't you?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
you wanted to protected him, you didn't want us pointing the finger at him?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
You still felt all right about him?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
you felt all right about -?

CARR
yes, I knew, I thought, I thought that you were going to go out there and you were going to find something, something was going to come up that was going to just solve it all, you know. That's why I thought that everything I had done would not even, wouldn't even matter - because you were going to go out and find the girls. I'm sorry.

POLICE
What day did you give your television interview - was that that day?

CARR
No, Saturday 10th.

POLICE
what time did the policeman come?

CARR
the Friday.

POLICE
yes?

CARR
the afternoon.

POLICE
where were you?

CARR
in our living room.

POLICE
you were at home?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
had you been out at all that week apart from Tuesday?

CARR
just to the shops - nowhere else.

POLICE
you didn't go searching?

CARR
didn't go searching (inaudible) I went into the college with Ian, didn't want to go searching in (inaudible)?

POLICE
They (inaudible) the searching for the public buildings or something?

CARR
yes, I didn't know where----

POLICE
Were you were going - it would say something about going into the college?

CARR
Yes. I went into the CSU or special crime, I didn't know what you call it, the vans turned up and went to search the college, went over with Ian, the press were buzzing the buzzer all the time, I went over with Ian to Beechurst to photocopy maps of Lodeside and Beechurst, I was stood there really, while they were doing the, what, copying, talking about areas that are alarmed and not alarmed and things like that, and Ian having to go on and doing the search, showing them where these buildings were and everything.

POLICE
what did you do?

CARR
I went back home again. Ian said they won't be that long, so I had to do his tea and that was it. don't ask what we had for tea because I can't remember."

MR KHALIL
my Lord we are going to move forward slightly to 125, please.

MR JUSTICE MOSES
can I ask the status of passages not read out, they are still part of the interview; not to look at them, it is just they are not read out. It is up to you what attention you pay them.

MR KHALIL
half-way down the page, okay?

POLICE
Tell me about Saturday, 10th August, this was a big day, wasn't it?

CARR
right, got up, shopping.

POLICE
whereabouts did you go shopping?

CARR
Tesco's.

POLICE
Ely?

CARR
I think it was Newmarket we went to, we go to one or the other, I think it was Newmarket.

POLICE
you have a club card?

CARR
yes, got back, this woman and man was waiting for us, Look East.

POLICE
what sort of time did you get back?

CARR
lunch time----

POLICE
look East?

CARR
yes, Look East, they wanted to know if we would give an interview to Look East, a television interview and we said you know, we don't like going on the TV and that, she said its a local programme, you know its going to be for the local interest. It is going to be for the people that is in the actual situation at the moment round here so we said yes okay, all right, we'll do it. so she spoke to me first about the card and everything and about Holly and Jess, what they are like at school and everything and they spoke to Ian and asked him you know----

POLICE
Can you remember what you said about Holly and Jess?

CARR
lovely, lovely cuddly, you know, lovely kids. Holly she is just like a little angel I said this over and over in interview, like a little angel, blue eyed, blonde hair, just lovely. She was.

POLICE
she is dead, Maxine, how does that make you feel about Ian?

CARR
Nothing about Ian, Ian he has not done anything I wish you would go out and find the real person instead of laming everyone else.

POLICE
you weren't here the day they disappeared?

CARR
I wasn't here, he hasn't done anything.

POLICE
he was on his own here, wasn't he?

CARR
so.

POLICE
he didn't have you to protect him, watch out for him, did he?

CARR
He didn't do anything like that, I don't care how many times you try to badger me Ian wouldn't do anything like that. I knew these girls you know, you didn't know them, you didn't sit in the classroom with them looking at you, talking to you, smiling at you.

POLICE
going back to that Friday, sorry the Saturday they recorded Ian and they recorded you?

CARR
no, they recorded me and then they recorded Ian.

POLICE
they recorded you first did they? what sort of time was that?

CARR
just after dinner because they said it would be on around seven o'clock the evening.

POLICE
they reckoned it would be on about after----?

CARR
after the big news.

POLICE
what did you do after that then?

CARR
I think that's it when the other officers came round.

POLICE
which other officers?

CARR
people like you two.

POLICE
plain clothes you mean CID?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
a woman and man?

CARR
the man spoke to Ian in the living room and the woman spoke to me in the dining room.

POLICE
what did they talk about?

CARR
juts asked about whereabouts and----.

POLICE
what did you say?

CARR
I told them I was in Soham.

POLICE
you lied to them, did they do anything else?

CARR
what do you mean.

POLICE
well things about you, where you had been?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
did they write statement?

CARR
yes yes.

POLICE
you signed that and said it was true. can't hear you?

CARR
yes, sorry.

POLICE
Did they do anything else to you?

CARR
no.

POLICE
like take a swab from in your mouth?

CARR
not me, took one from Ian.

POLICE
didn't the doctor take one (inaudible) when you were in the dining room?

CARR
yes.

CARR
Ian was in the other room?

CARR
in the living room.

POLICE
they took a swab from Ian, did they?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
how do you know that?

CARR
because they said when they came in if they could take a swab, she didn't ask me for one but I presume they were going to take both of us, but just Ian, and told Ian it was routine to take from everyone that they interviewed or something.

POLICE
How did Ian react to that?

CARR
no problem. Happy to do it, happy to help in any way possible.

POLICE
he seemed okay to you, did he?

CARR
He was fine.

POLICE
not stressed or worried?

CARR
no, he was fine.

POLICE
nervous?

CARR
he was just fine.

MR KHALIL
we are going to move on a number of pages please, there is a deal of discussion in similar vein, and on page 135, after her movements thereafter were discussed, we pick up at the third detained person entry.

POLICE
did you go to the memorial service?

CARR
I didn't go to the memorial service.

POLICE
did Ian?

CARR
no.

POLICE
did you want to go?

CARR
yes, I wanted to go.

POLICE
why didn't you go then?

CARR
because I thought it was more personal, didn't know that it was for everybody. I thought it was for the family and friends, even my neighbour was going to go, and she said to me I don't think I'm going to go, she said, it is not appropriate for me to be there.

POLICE
what about the vigil?

CARR
I think the vigil was the previous Wednesday isn't it?

POLICE
did you speak to Ian about going to the service?

CARR
no, it was just left to us really.

POLICE
so you could have gone if you wanted to?

CARR
could have gone if I wanted to.

POLICE
but you didn't want to

CARR
didn't want to see people upset, bad enough seeing them on television, talking about it?

POLICE
why is it then?

CARR
You are seeing a man on the television talking about his friend, going through fields and ditches, looking for graves, and you know the people they are talking about, you just don't want, I don't want - to talk to me. When you go to a memorial it means the children or people you are going for aren't with us any more, and to me they were still with us even----

POLICE
even though you feared the worst?

CARR
I hoped and prayed they were okay. When you found those mounds of earth in Newmarket or wherever, you found them in the morning, they had the taxi driver saying they had been in the back of a green car and everyone was saying, great, they are alive, okay, somebody has got them, (inaudible) a plea to them (inaudible) back, and within a few hours digging up woods and you have to - its on the edge of your seat all night to see what it is - I ran down at half six in the morning to chase it up, to find out - what is badger setts----

POLICE
what did you do when you got home on Sunday, 11th August?

CARR
just watched telly.

POLICE
did you watch the reconstruction on telly?

CARR
no, I saw flashes on the ITN news of them leaving a house, but these girls leaving a house then walking some where that looked like the High Street but didn't see the full, whatever you did sort of thing.

POLICE
did you miss it on purpose?

CARR
no.

POLICE
just an accident. Monday 12th?

CARR
Monday just housework and press, press all day , press, knocking on the door.

POLICE
housework.

CARR
Yes, hoovering, clearing up after Sadie who is in season.

POLICE
still?

CARR
yes, she is still in season, well she was still in season before I was brought here, I'm presuming she is still in season, cleaning my rats out, I am very house proud with my things most times I haven't got enough time on my hands to do it.

POLICE
is that the day you cleaned the cooker?

CARR
no that was my previous statement if you remember.

POLICE
what date was that you cleaned the cooker?

CARR
I didn't clean the cooker. The day you are thinking of was the day I said I was cleaning the cooker on the Sunday I said I was in.

POLICE
what house work did you do, vacuum all through?

CARR
yes, vacuum all through, skirting boards, Sadie leans against the skirting boards in the living room and that and splatters stuff, work surfaces, toilet downstairs, polishing so there is nothing special about.

POLICE
nothing special about that Monday was there?

CARR
no just normal Monday housework.

POLICE
then press knocking on the door all the time.

CARR
Okay, Tuesday then same drill with housework except today this day Ian painted up to the window, we painted tiles with green tile paint and Ian painted up to the window but there was still like a long mound of tiles underneath where the fridge is, just white, so I decided I would get the paint brush and would do them. I painted the tiles and then I painted in the toilet, I painted the downstairs toilet, I painted.

POLICE
you told Mr York said some artistic stuff, didn't you?

CARR
Yes, all I did was a bit like a frame round my mirror because it is a horrible looking mirror.

POLICE
okay what day was that?

CARR
Tuesday.

POLICE
can you remember anything else about that day?

CARR
no, nothing in particular.

POLICE
can you remember what Ian was doing on those two days?

CARR
just work and home.

POLICE
over the page."

MR JUSTICE MOSES
shall we stop there? two o'clock ladies and gentlemen. . {luncheon adjournment}. .

MR KHALIL
my Lord, page 138, please, just about the first hole punch. we begin?

CARR
Thursday, washed my curtains in dining room and hall it says here, referring to the notes I spoke of earlier, gave statements I can't.

POLICE
what day was that?

CARR
it says Thursday, 15th, last Thursday I put gave statement, just can't.

POLICE
did you do the Sky TV interview that day?

CARR
that was, thats it, yes I went on the High Street.

POLICE
tell me about that then?

CARR
this man knocked on the door, Ed Fraser he said you know that he was from Sky TV and they tried to keep it in the public eye because its dropping down the ratings in the public domain or whatever in the papers and everything. He said you know it is page 6 now instead of page 1 if we don't get anybody to keep coming on the television keep coming forward, people will lose interest in this case and they wanted to speak to Ian. I said well I will go and ask Ian, I will go over to the school and ask Ian if he will speak to you. I went over there with this guy doing the alarm he said no I ain't got time to talk to anybody. they came back, because I said well come back and I will ask a him you know, come back. hey came back I said no sorry he is busy at the school and for Soham, - they said to me did you know the girls? did you know this, that and the other? they said something about a car. They said you have got a card or something. so I got the card, showed them that, would you come on television. They followed (inaudible) he was coming back over to get his ring, said something to them outside the doorstep, I think it wasn't live, just a recorded bit. I don't know what that was about then he said right we'll take you on to the High Street Maxine and they walked me up to opposite the Crown garage, where there, just basically asked me about my card and what I thought had happened to them you know, things like that.

POLICE
can you remember what you said?

CARR
what about.

POLICE
anything?

CARR
yes. just told him the kind of girls they are, bubbly like I say, probably said they were like little angels really.

POLICE
Maxine you said the kind of girls they are?

CARR
sorry can't get used to saying that, they were now.

POLICE
do you know at the time on that Sky TV you said they were lovely girls?

CARR
was that what I said.

POLICE
yes?

CARR
well, yes, and what relationship I said they were lovely girls in school probably that's how I meant it, I didn't work with them any more. I'm not at school any more so I can't say how they are at the moment, I am sorry if I ade a blip if thats anything to go by I'm sorry.

POLICE
its all right I just want to know where you are. I'm not going to hold these things against you one word, one phrase I want to be sure in your mind you are clear of the situation. so Ian, did his first and you did yours second. He spoke to them outside the house I don't think it was live like I said I think it was recorded. when Ian went down to the High Street.

POLICE
did you listen to Ian doing his?

CARR
no I was in the house.

POLICE
did he come down the High Street?

CARR
he didn't come with me no."

MR KHALIL
I'm going ask us please to turn to page 147. there was a great deal of other conversation and a meeting with Inspector Causer and then we come back to the account you have said to the policeman on the 10th so about ten lines up from the bottom just below the second hole punch?

CARR
okay.

POLICE
this story you told the policeman on the 10th?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
or even before that when he came to do the house to house?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
whose idea was it?

CARR
mine.

POLICE
well, when did you think it up?

CARR
when I first got back and I realised how upset Ian was about being the last person to speak to them.

POLICE
how did that being upset show its self with Ian?

CARR
tears, plus his mother and father didn't help. by constantly ringing up saying oh have you, as soon as you know this story gets out they are going, people are going to be ringing up from Grimsby saying yes, this, that and the other which she put the wind up everybody really, well me anyway she said people are----.

POLICE
she said people are going to be ringing from Grimsby?

CARR
Yes, she said all these people are going to be ringing from Grimsby that bloody woman the mother of the girl whose baby Ian has got didn't like Ian in the first place and tried to cause, I don't know, said she will be ringing up, you know he is a suspect whatever and it just put the wind up me really.

POLICE
you wanted to protect him from that?

CARR
I wanted to protect him from the past, not the present or the future or whatever.

POLICE
okay who wrote it down?

CARR
me.

POLICE
did you?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
where did you write it?

CARR
On a piece of paper which was in the hi-fi cabinet.

POLICE
why?

CARR
I wanted to make sure I got it correct.

POLICE
that's a photocopy there."

MR KHALIL
if we pause if the Jury have their folder open please we can follow the next bit of the interview with the handwritten piece of paper number one and follow what is on he paper and relate it to the interview as we go through. .

MR JUSTICE MOSES
it is all in the the same file.

MR KHALIL
in the same file, just take out that paper.

MR JUSTICE MOSES
yes, and remember to put it back.

POLICE
that's a photocopy there?

MR KHALIL
Yes.

POLICE
a piece of paper found in her house?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
who wrote that?

CARR
me.

POLICE
would you like to read out what it says?

CARR
yes. '4.55 to 5 p.m. got in', can't read my own writing, 'got in' what? 'going to bath approximately 5.40 to 45. dog home, approximately 6.15, girls. 6.25 came down to put tea on.'

POLICE
okay, why did you decide to say that you were in the bath?

CARR
I don't know. I couldn't exactly say that I was on the front doorstep, could I.

POLICE
no, but you could have been anywhere else in the house, couldn't you?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
so whose idea was it that you were in the bath?

CARR
mine.

POLICE
your idea? yesterday you said that you shouldn't have done that; you shouldn't have given that false alibi and that you would mess it all up. Ian told you you would mess it all up. you are nodding, is that right?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
do you remember saying that?

CARR
I think so.

POLICE
Do you remember Ian saying you would mess it all up?

CARR
he said I shouldn't have done that because I would say something, say something different or say something and, you know, then they'll know you are lying, sort of thing.

POLICE
mess all what up?

CARR
the story that I have got, details of where I was.

POLICE
Maxine, you know we suspect you and Ian for murder of these girls, don't you?

CARR
I know.

POLICE
We think they have been lured into the house and killed?

CARR
I didn't.

POLICE
you didn't write that note, did you, because if you look, it is not the same handwriting as yours, is it?

CARR
no.

POLICE
so who wrote the note, Maxine?

CARR
Ian.

POLICE
Ian. Why did Ian write the note, Maxine?

CARR
'Cos he said I had to get my story right, so he wrote it down as I told the police officer. that's exactly what I told the police officer, so he wrote it down. He said if you are going to carry on lying like this you are going to have to remember what you are lying about.

POLICE
what do you think about Ian now, Maxine?

CARR
nothing.

POLICE
you don't think anything about him?

CARR
no, no I don't.

POLICE
Just because he wrote that down, he did that because he knew that----?

CARR
I don't know.

POLICE
He did this because there was something to hide?

CARR
there wasn't anything to hide.

POLICE
Then why do you need an alibi, Maxine, if there is nothing to hide?

CARR
because you have been accused of rape before and the police point fingers at people.

POLICE
they do?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
how many times have the police pointed fingers at people?

CARR
you haven't charged him so I don't believe any of it anyway.

POLICE
it is not true because it has not been charged?

CARR
no."

MR KHALIL
then they put in more tapes. if we can move, please, to 151, it may be we can put that piece of paper if it is out back in the folder. We pick it up just by the first hole punch.

MR JUSTICE MOSES
tab 4.

MR KHALIL
the first document, tab 4, page 151, the first hole punch.

POLICE
okay you told us when you were in Grimsby, yes, there was an urgency to get back?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
why was that?

CARR
I wanted to find out what was going on. two kids that I know have gone missing. it is just the same reaction you probably have if you knew somebody had gone missing. I just couldn't rest properly thinking about these two girls when you have seen their face flash in front of your face and you can see them talking to you.

POLICE
Okay so you came back to find out what was going on?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
you get back, what do you do then in relation to the two missing girls, Holly and Jessica?

CARR
we went out, me and Ian walked down to see if they were searching at St Andrew's. A police officer was there with a gang of people sat there and they were telling us no searching would be done. Police were taking forever that, basically watch it on television, Teletext, nothing physically you can do, like they said at the meeting, public meeting, hundreds of people asked what can we do to help, not a lot, sort of thing.

POLICE
my colleague asked you before you know more or less the same question and you never mentioned anything about going to the meeting to assist with the searches.

CARR
Just because I said I had gone to the meeting that was earlier on.

POLICE
no, my colleague asked you when you came back that you been involved in any of the searches and you said?

CARR
I haven't been involved in the search.

POLICE
you offered information in relation to trying to help?

CARR
because I have not beem involved in the search.

POLICE
sorry I've got to remember everything. I'm sure you understand the importance of everything in relation to what you are saying in relation to the questions?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
you weren't able to help with the searching?

CARR
yes I spoke to Sue Hall that night as well as a teacher, who is a teacher at St Andrew's.

POLICE
okay so you weren't able to help with the searches, you have kept your eye on Teletext and everything else going on, can you think of any other way you could help?

CARR
no apart from the Press.

POLICE
so why did you need to rush back?

CARR
because I felt anxious. is there problem with me feeling anxious about somebody? I'm sure if you knew a girl who had spoken to you, gave you a card and chocolates and made your life at school nice, made you feel better, those kids at the school were brilliant.

POLICE
did you come back to help Ian?

CARR
I didn't come back to help Ian. I came back for me.

POLICE
okay. Ian has told you about what is goings on, he is telling you he has been out all night, did you not want to come back to support him?

CARR
Yes, support him as well. not in the way you are thinking, probably. Someone has got to look after Ian, someone has to feed him up if he is going to be out on the street with your guys all night, all day.

POLICE
he is a grown man though?

CARR
yes, but he still can't cook and clean for himself.

POLICE
okay, but he has bought food hasn't he, he has got food?

CARR
Yes, pot noodle, stuff like that, that's not proper food to him.

POLICE
Yet you are going to leave him for the weekend?

CARR
yes, his parents were going to look after him; his mum and dad were going to make meals for him.

POLICE
why did that not happen?

CARR
it could have happened.

POLICE
why did you need to rush back, Maxine?

CARR
I wanted to be back in the area to know what was going on with these kids.

POLICE
you have come back and you are planning on giving him an alibi?

CARR
I, yes, I was planning to give him an alibi, to say that I was there, that he was in the house, that I was in the house, I mean----

POLICE
to get Ian off the charges?

CARR
No, not to get Ian of the charges he is facing, because at the time didn't believe Ian would even be charged or arrested or anything else. the reason why I said that was because I was hoping you guys would pull your fingers out and find something.

POLICE
we think we have found something, Maxine?

CARR
you haven't, no, you haven't.

POLICE
that's why we have got two people in custody.

CARR
You have got the wrong ones.

POLICE
that's what we found Maxine, the false alibi?

CARR
that's nothing.

POLICE
it's nothing?

CARR
nothing.

POLICE
it is, it is a false alibi?

CARR
well, it is to you, yes. it is nothing to me. it's just wrote down because I, at the time, I was going to lie to the police - I'm not lying to the police now, its a false - I have asked the speak to you.

POLICE
it's a false alibi Maxine. If that's all have you got it is not a lot is it, and in Ian's handwriting?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
In Ian's handwriting not your handwriting?

CARR
That's not what you were going to say?

CARR
no, no that was what I was going to say excuse me he told me he asked me what times and places and did it and he wrote it down thank you very much. he didn't right write it himself.

POLICE
say it again?

CARR
He had the piece of paper. I told him the various times, what I was doing at that time and he just wrote it down. He didn't write it down himself out of his own head.

POLICE
you told him what to write?

CARR
I just said at some and such a time I got in the bath and at such and such a time I did this, that's what I told your officer. that's all he did, be a secretary or whatever you want to call it.

POLICE
just going to change the tapes now, it is quarter past 6. I will change the tapes she is cautioned again. what I will tell you is Ian has been charged formally, charged now with two murders?

CARR
oh.

POLICE
the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman?

CARR
he can't have.

POLICE
I will tell you what else forensically, his fingerprints have been found on the clothing that the bag was in?

CARR
the bag, no.

POLICE
that the clothing was in?

CARR
no.

POLICE
at the hangar?

CARR
no.

POLICE
you wanted facts and you wanted to know about the forensic side ?

CARR
It can't have been, it can't have been, he can't have been. (then crying)

POLICE
are you all right to continue?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
I think I want you to consider now Maxine, is your position?

CARR
considered my position, I have not done anything.

POLICE
you have not done anything Maxine?

CARR
and Ian hasn't to my knowledge, Ian hasn't done anything.

POLICE
okay so Man United tops, the clothing those girls were wearing within that bin bag found concealed at the college?

CARR
oh no.

POLICE
is the hangar we have now been told it has Ian's fingerprints on the bag?

CARR
no. The solicitor interrupts I think we need a break officer.

POLICE
Maxine do you need a break?

CARR
I can't tell you any more I don't know any more.

POLICE
Maxine do you want a break?

CARR
I just want to get out of here.

CARR'S SOLICITOR
Do you want to carry on or a break?

CARR
just carry on there is nothing I can tell you.

POLICE
Maxine you have been living with Ian for three and a half years?

CARR
he wouldn't, he wouldn't do it.

POLICE
Maxine these are your friends, people you have a special relationship with at school, why would Ian pick on them two little people?

CARR
he has not picked on them he can't have you have got it wrong you have.

POLICE
you asked for something forensic, something definite and I have given you that as it is. d water got on the carpet if the dining table was in the way?

CARR
depends where it was the dining table. I don't know how it managed to, I don't know.

POLICE
I have not seen how the furniture was in your house before. I don't know?

CARR
the table was in a different place when come back.

POLICE
was it?

CARR
to what it was when I went away, it was more into the corner of the room.

POLICE
where it had been moved to when you came back?

CARR
it was more centralised in the room.

POLICE
who had done that?

CARR
Ian.

POLICE
Where was the wet patch compared with the table?

CARR
at the side, where the wall went you can see it had come down. It was a bit damp the stone was wet near the table.

POLICE
If you went up that wall through the ceiling what was above that wall, what was on that wall?

CARR
it is where the bathroom is.

POLICE
where the bathroom is, is that the wall the bath is fixed to?

CARR
yes, I think so, yes.

POLICE
whereabouts in the bath is the crack?

CARR
the side.

POLICE
yes, is that the side where you going to or the side nearest the wall?

CARR
the side where you get in the where the handrail is. n't know anything about the bath side.

POLICE
all right I have got a picture in my mind's eye from what you explained, did it seem strange to you this carpet was still wet a couple of days later it was warm weather wasn't it?

CARR
it was just like damp, you know sort of smell musty.

POLICE
did you think the carpet had been cleaned?

CARR
it had not been cleaned, just smelt wet, damp. The only reason I know because like as I knelt down to polish under the table, my jeans were a bit damp, on the legs on the floor in the----.

POLICE
on the floor in the bathroom there was vinyl there?

CARR
yes.

POLICE
you called it lino yesterday?

CARR
lino.

POLICE
old fashioned girl you just- lino is that still there?

CARR
Yes.

POLICE
never been any carpet in the bathroom?

CARR
no the same as the kitchen, just lino.

POLICE
is it possible when Jessica returned from holiday there could have been some meeting between Holly and Jessica and Ian?

CARR
no.

POLICE
never mentioned to you anything on the phone about speaking to them?

CARR
no.

POLICE
seeing them?

CARR
no.

POLICE
has he never been jealous of your relationships with any of the school children?

CARR
no.

POLICE
said he is in secure, has he ever made you cut your hair?

CARR
no, I don't like my haircut really, I used to have longer hair than this.

POLICE
Ian never said I like your hair short why don't you go and get your hair cut?

CARR
Ian doesn't like short hair much.

POLICE
doesn't he?

CARR
no, mine has always been like long sort of curling.

POLICE
Have you been involved in the grooming of these two children by grooming them with a secret plan of and you Ian to murder?

CARR
no.

POLICE
Holy Wells and Jessica Chapman?

CARR
no.

POLICE
have you been involved in the disposal of their bodies?

CARR
no.

POLICE
we can only give you the opportunity to speak to us to give an account of your involvement?

CARR
no, I can't do any more than that, no. I have helped you but I have not done anything.

POLICE
is there anything you want to add to that which you have said already Maxine? Any of those questions we have not asked that you haven't answered?

CARR
what questions.

POLICE
perhaps you ought to?

CARR
what questions I have not answered.

POLICE
if you don't get asked the question you don't always volunteer the answer do you?

CARR
oh no, no, nothing, no.

POLICE
are you being straight with us now?

CARR
Yes, I am being straight with you.

POLICE
okay.

CARR
Sorry for what I did before.

POLICE
we caught you out didn't we?

CARR
I didn't think for one second anything would come to Ian and I thought you would find something, somebody else I just thought I would save him.

POLICE
okay we'll turn the machine off."

MR KHALIL
that was 1900 hours and the interview concluded.

{the witness withdrew}.

MR LATHAM
my Lord we have been asked to recall with two witnesses who helped with events on the first Monday, I will do that now, if I may, with my Lord's leave. firstly Andrea Warren, please, Detective Constable Warren.

MR COWARD
I apologise, it is my fault I missed something when you gave evidence on the last occasion I can't now remember when it was?

ANDREA WARREN
17th November.

MR COWARD
do you remember being asked about some footwear, that Mr Huntley was wearing on the day you went to see him?

ANDREA WARREN
I was, yes.

MR COWARD
I think you were actually shown a picture on the screen we have got in court. I think the picture is now available to remind us of it. my memory is when you were shown that boot you said those were the boots that Mr Huntley was wearing the day we spoke to him?

ANDREA WARREN
I think I said I thought they were but they had different coloured laces, the ones that I recall Mr Huntley wearing. .

MR COWARD
you thought they were?

ANDREA WARREN
yes.

MR COWARD
looking at picture, what do you say those boots appear to be made of?

ANDREA WARREN
leather. .

MR COWARD
would you have look at the actual boots please, the ones we have on the screen. {same handed} for the purpose of the court record, they are DMX 5 add 6. what the material are they made of officer?

ANDREA WARREN
suede.

MR COWARD
could you be handed, please, a statement made by you at our page 1196, my Lord, at 1198, a statement made by you dated 19th August last year? could you turn to the third page and follow it with me. the second line down "he wore a thin belt with a small buckle, possibly brown in colour, when he sat in front of me my attention was drawn to his feet. He was wearing what I would describe as hiking boots, not working boots. I got a good view of them because he crossed his legs by placing one ankle on to the other leg of knee. the boots were made of smooth brown leather not suede. They had ankle supports. the sole of one was crossed with (inaudible) in perfect condition as if never been worn out. The whole boots looked brand new, the laces were a different colour to the boots. They had a separate colour, it may have been red woven into the lace. that's your recollection on the 19th August?

ANDREA WARREN
that's correct.

MR COWARD
the boots that you have in front of you that we have got on the screen simply don't match that description, do they?

ANDREA WARREN
well they look leather on screen to me so yes, they do. They have padded ankle supports so yes, they are the ones I thought I saw that day, with different coloured laces.

MR COWARD
now you have the boots literally in front of you, not on the screen, in person, you say, those are the boots Mr Huntley wore on the day?

ANDREA WARREN
no because these are suede , I thought he had smooth leather boots on these are definitely suede.

MR COWARD
when you indicated when you were giving (inaudible) time you thought they may well be the boots you saw on the screen you now accept these can't be right?

ANDREA WARREN
yes, these are suede and I thought they were smooth leather on the day I saw them.

MR COWARD
I would like you to look at another pair of boots, please. my Lord for reference purposes, DJB 83 and 84. . you have just been handed DJB 83 and 84 are brown leather, aren't they?

ANDREA WARREN
yes, they are.

MR COWARD
they have padded ankle supports, don't they?

ANDREA WARREN
they do.

MR COWARD
having had your memory refreshed by seeing them now are those the boots Mr Huntley was wearing?

ANDREA WARREN
I'm sorry I can't be certain.

MR COWARD
is there anything about those boots that lead you to the view they are not the boots he was wearing?

ANDREA WARREN
I distinctly recall the laces were a different colour to the boot and the boot looked particularly new and these don't look as new as I remember them being.

MR COWARD
the date you saw him was on 5th August?

ANDREA WARREN
the 5th August.

MR COWARD
I have no further cross-examination.

MR LATHAM
I have no re-examination.

MR JUSTICE MOSES
thank you very much

{the witness withdrew}.

MR LATHAM
Detective Constable Taylor please the other witness who attended on that day, my Lord.

MR LATHAM
Mr Taylor you are still on oath will you wait there, please?

JONATHON TAYLOR
yes.

MR COWARD
Mr Taylor, it is my fault you have had to come back, I apologise to you. when you went to see Mr Huntley on 5th August, he was wearing boots, wasn't he?

JONATHON TAYLOR
that's correct.

MR COWARD
do you now have a memory of the boots he was wearing?

JONATHON TAYLOR
yes.

MR COWARD
would you have a look at the picture coming up on our screens. were those the boots he was wearing?

JONATHON TAYLOR
no.

MR COWARD
would you have look at a second pair of boots. when Mr Taylor you gave a statement on .... August in relation to these matters dealing with the boot, can I quote what you said - my Lord page 1208. "he was wearing brown hiking boots, mid- brown soft leather, the souls seeming smaller than the boot ie the boot over hung the sole they had the name Brasher on the side. I'm aware of this brand of boots named after Chris Brasher and I believe they cost about £120 a pair, I thought it was strange he was wearing them indoors. when he sat and put his foot on his knee I could see the tread on the sole with wide gaps between them, the laces were criss-crossed. if you look at either of the boots Mr Taylor I think you can actually see the word Brasher written on the outside can't you?

JONATHON TAYLOR
yes.

MR COWARD
were those the boots Mr Huntley wore on the day you interviewed him?

JONATHON TAYLOR
they are the same make as far as I can tell they are the same.

MR COWARD
there is nothing about them different from your memory of the boots he was wearing?

JONATHON TAYLOR
no.

MR COWARD
I'm very grateful thank you.

MR LATHAM
no re-examination

{the witness withdrew}.

MR LATHAM
my Lord is aware we need to raise an administrative matter that will take a little time with the court and that need not involve the Jury. It means in fact that we won't need the Jury again today.

MR JUSTICE MOSES
how long do you expect you will need them tomorrow.

MR LATHAM
I think there is a real chance we'll be able to release them tomorrow at around the midday adjournment, one o'clock, there is a chance, I cannot guarantee. .

MR JUSTICE MOSES
ladies and gentlemen, we are going to carry on working, but we do not need you for the rest of the afternoon so you are free now. Remember the warning. in case you want to make at least tentative arrangements in relation to Friday and the weekend the likelihood is we won't need you after lunch time tomorrow I can't make it a definite guarantee but there is a pretty good chance that you will be free tomorrow afternoon. don't worry about these times, I have already indicated to you we are well ahead of schedule and we are not wasting time. thank you very much, that's all for today

DISCUSSION IN ABSENCE OF JURY.
Hearing adjourned - will resume tomorrow

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