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28/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 28 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
Page 01 02
03
MR LATHAM
my Lord, I call Kenneth Smith, please. my Lord, it is
page 8104
(Kenneth Smith, sworn)
Examined by MR LATHAM.
MR LATHAM
Mr Smith will you tell us your full name, please?
KENNETH SMITH
my full name is Kenneth Charles Smith.
MR
LATHAM
and your employment please?
KENNETH
SMITH
yes, I work for British Gypsum, manufacturers plaster
and plaster board.
MR LATHAM
before we move on to a description of what you found out
in what way plasterboards differ you could describe to
the Jury the nature of plasterboard, how in fact it is
constructed in very simple terms if that is okay.
KENNETH SMITH
Plasterboard is manufactured from gypsum, gypsum rock,
a natural element. It is made into a solution and then
compressed into two sheets of paper in the manufacturing
process.
MR LATHAM
you end up with a sheet material, large sheets maybe 8ft
by 4ft coming on down to smaller sizes, I think?
KENNETH SMITH
a variety of sizes, yes.
MR LATHAM
the sheet material is about how thick, I know it comes
in different thicknesses, but approximately how thick?
KENNETH SMITH
half inch.
MR LATHAM
so the gypsum bit is, as it were, the plaster?
KENNETH SMITH
core.
MR LATHAM
core. then you have got a sheet of paper on either side
to hold them together?
KENNETH SMITH
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
when it has been manufactured and if still dry is it a
light or heavy material when an 8 by 4 feet?
KENNETH SMITH
quite heavy, ranging from about 8kg, to 10kg per square
meter.
MR LATHAM
it has been used as a ceiling material is it ...can one
man can handle doing a ceiling?
KENNETH
SMITH
used on a building site it is a one man job.
MR LATHAM
What happens to it, its designed to withstand water or
not?
KENNETH SMITH
not really, there are certain plaster boards that are
designed for it but not generally.
MR
LATHAM
what happens a sheet of plasterboard if in fact, it gets
wet?
KENNETH SMITH
Depending on how wet, it breaks up.
MR
LATHAM
once water penetrates the outside and gets to the gypsum,
what happens to the gypsum?
KENNETH
SMITH
it will soften.
MR LATHAM
if a piece gets an amount of water on it, if you tip a
bucket of water on it and the water leaks into it, you
say its softens the gypsum. If left to dry out, what are
you left with?
KENNETH SMITH
Often it will sag the plasterboard walls are left with
a stain.
MR LATHAM
it is used for constructing apart from anything else -
ceilings?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
You can use it either side of a wall to give you a finished
surface?
KENNETH SMITH
Yes.
MR LATHAM
you were asked to go to 5 College Close in March this
year, weren't you?
KENNETH SMITH
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
in fact on 10th March. by the time you went to 5 College
Close it was, I think, immediately apparent to you that
the house had been completely stripped by the police during
the course of their search?
KENNETH
SMITH
correct.
MR LATHAM
It was little more than a shell, albeit still with a roof
on it, and replacement windows to keep it weather-tight?
KENNETH SMITH
that's right.
MR LATHAM
some of the ceilings have been as it were broken into
to reveal the rafters above, some of the ceilings still
in place?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
the Jury is familiar with the scene they went to the house
and saw it very very much in the condition you saw it
in. Can I take you first to the dining room, please. If
you look at your screen here, this is a view with the
person taking this picture, as it were, standing in the
entrance-way or near to the entrance way, and looking
into the only window in the dining room?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
the kitchen on the right and the dividing wall between
the dining room and the living room where we can see an
arrow on the left-hand side?
KENNETH
SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
I am going to, as it were, rotate upwards so we can still
see on the right the kitchen wall and on the left the
dining room/sitting room wall until we can see the ceiling.
Is that how it was pretty much when you went to see it?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
and what we have is a hole or some damage in the ceiling
pretty much centrally between the ... what is that ceiling
we see there made of?
KENNETH SMITH
plasterboard.
MR LATHAM
once plasterboard has been nailed to the floor joists,
in this case to hold it up, how is it finished off so
that one can decorate it?
KENNETH SMITH
there are two methods, one which is to skim the surface
of the plaster board with 2mm of plaster or alternatively
lathe can join where the joints are in the plasterboard.
MR LATHAM
Sorry, I missed that?
KENNETH SMITH
they can joint it, go over the joint area of the plasterboard
and then decorate.
MR LATHAM
then it can be decorated?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
was this ceiling skimmed with plaster or just jointed?
KENNETH SMITH
I think it was a skimmed surface.
MR
LATHAM
so when this plasterboard was put up the plasterer then
skimmed the surface?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
I was asking you about water damage and what that shows
up as, if any reasonably large quantity of water is tipped
on to plaster. Is your answer in any way affected by a
ceiling which is constructed with a skimmed coat of plaster
over the top of it?
KENNETH SMITH
no, sir.
MR LATHAM
that is, viewing the ceiling in the dining room, we can
see it is central between the walls right and left and
indeed, if we continue the rotation so that we are looking
up at the ceiling in the other direction, front to back
of the room, it is pretty much in the centre the other
way, isn't it, that hole?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
so pretty much centrally in the room. I will ask for that
to be switched off at this stage. You examined that ceiling
down below, as it were, looking up at it first of all.
I would like you just to describe, if you will, and if
you need to look at the report please do, but if you can
remember, just go ahead, what the condition of that ceiling
was, apart from the obvious hole it in?
KENNETH SMITH
the condition of the ceiling was fine, it was flat, there
was no sagging, there was no nail spotting, no rusting,
no cracking of any of the joints.
MR
LATHAM
what would any of those things indicate to you, as in,
rusting - did you say staining?
KENNETH
SMITH
staining and obviously the T joints of the plasterboard
are where cracks occur.
MR LATHAM
If we have two sheets of plasterboard butt-ended on the
ceiling you can get cracking between the point where they
are butt-ended?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
you didn't see either on the ceiling? what would any of
those things have indicated to you if you had seen something
like that?
KENNETH SMITH
that the plaster had got wet.
MR LATHAM
in the context of a ceiling in a two-storey house how
does a ceiling get wet so that sort of thing happens?
KENNETH SMITH
a tank bursts.
MR LATHAM
where does the water come from - below or above?
KENNETH SMITH
above.
MR LATHAM
so water getting down to the inner surface, if I can put
it that way?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
what would cause the rusting?
KENNETH
SMITH
that would be water again, the content of the water.
MR LATHAM
I think you then went upstairs. Is that right?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
into the bathroom?
KENNETH SMITH
We are now in the bathroom, although of course all the
plumbing has been removed, the bath, taps and so on that
had been in this room it is not in dispute would have
been running along the wall we are looking at at the moment,
and we can see the tile line, can't we?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
with the taps on the right hand end, which is the outer
wall in the window. If we look to the bottom of the photograph,
we can see where the bath would have been sitting?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
on the floorboards that would have been there----?
KENNETH SMITH
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
----before they were removed. if we look under the floorboards,
we can see the joist running front to back in the scene
we are looking at the moment, can't we?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
the floor joists, which are supporting the upper floor
of the- just underneath the floorboards you see where
I have now put the marker?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
can we see something there under there what is that?
KENNETH SMITH
just a small light.
MR LATHAM
we can zoom in on that, does that help you now, so the
centre of the ceiling of the dining room is almost immediately
underneath that partition wall of the bathroom. did you
look, if we look down now as we are in this photograph,
between the floor joists what are we looking at?
KENNETH SMITH
we are looking at the top of the plasterboard.
MR LATHAM
the other side of the same sheet?
KENNETH
SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
did you look at the plasterboard which could be seen in
the bathroom and, in particular, in the area, which was,
as it were, the top side of the hole in the ceiling for
the ceiling rose of the dining room?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
and did you look there for evidence of flooding?
KENNETH SMITH
I looked all round the area for flooding.
MR
LATHAM
what could you find when you looked at that ceiling?
KENNETH SMITH
I couldn't really find any evidence of flooding.
MR LATHAM
was there some water marking on the surface of the ceiling
looked as from above like this?
KENNETH
SMITH
there was minimal sort of water damage around one end
near the joists.
MR LATHAM
which end - the tap end or the other end?
KENNETH SMITH
the front of the house.
MR LATHAM
which would be up at this end here, where the arrow is
at the moment, wouldn't it?
KENNETH
SMITH
sorry, arrow?
MR LATHAM
that's the front of the house, the back of the house,
the window end, and it is at the end opposite the tap
end?
KENNETH SMITH
I took that just to be damage from a maintenance, a plug
or, there was new pipe-work which had been installed.
MR LATHAM
new pipe-work?
MR JUSTICE MOSES
keep your voice up please.
MR LATHAM
can you say that again?
KENNETH SMITH
some new pipe-work which had been installed, I guess the
hot and cold feed.
MR LATHAM
to the bath?
KENNETH SMITH
The damage I noticed was consistent with maybe a waste
pipe.
MR LATHAM
what sort of water are we talking about then?
KENNETH SMITH
minimal
MR LATHAM
could you find any evidence of what might be described
as a significant flood - of water down on to that ceiling?
KENNETH SMITH
I didn't notice any.
MR LATHAM
I think, in fact, you examined some of the plasterboard
to the extent of being able to see a code on it didn't
you?
KENNETH SMITH
that's correct, yes. Everything that is ever produced
gets a code on at its manufacture.
MR
LATHAM
Were you able to date some of the plasterboard on this
ceiling you looked at?
KENNETH SMITH
Yes, we were.
MR LATHAM
can you remember now the manufacture date you extracted
from?
KENNETH SMITH
I think it was at your----
MR LATHAM
replaced from 2001 to 2002, you are finding coding 5th
December 2001?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR LATHAM
wait there please Mr Smith.
(Cross-examined
by MR COWARD)
MR COWARD
When you stood in the dining room, how big was the hole
in the ceiling?
KENNETH SMITH
approximately about 3 inches, 4 inches across.
MR COWARD
some of your dimensions of it can be discovered, not only
from the photographs we looked at in the dining room,
but the fact that you can see through into the dining
room on the photograph we have got on the screen now?
KENNETH SMITH
yes.
MR COWARD
the hole of that size is not a problem because normally
if you have a ceiling rose?
KENNETH
SMITH
I'm not sure, depending on the ceiling rose but normally.
MR COWARD
normally people who put up lights for the centre of the
dining room have a ceiling rose don't they?
KENNETH SMITH
Yes.
MR COWARD
and above the ceiling rose, there is the cable which runs
down through the light fitting to make the lights work?
KENNETH SMITH
that's correct.
MR COWARD
were you able to form any view as to whether the size
of that hole in the ceiling of the dining room had been
like that for sometime?
KENNETH SMITH
I couldn't say.
MR COWARD
it was March when you first went to have a look, you weren't
invited to go any earlier than that?
KENNETH SMITH
no.
MR COWARD
Mr Smith, did- if you fill the bath with water and take
the plug out what happens when the bath water runs away
through waste pipe, it runs through bath and away down
the waste pipe?
KENNETH SMITH
Correct.
MR COWARD
given the size of the hole and the position of the hole,
it is very much on the cards that any leak from the bath
would find the hole and go down it?
KENNETH SMITH
water finds its own level, but initially it would find
the joists. the joists would be a natural path for the
water running through but eventually it would find the
hole and it would run to that.
MR COWARD
the hole would lead to the dining room and any water through
the hole would go straight down into the dining room?
KENNETH SMITH
to the light fitting if it was there, yes.
MR COWARD
did you yourself examine the bath?
KENNETH
SMITH
no.
MR COWARD
you don't know whereabouts on the bath the crack was and
how far down the side? We know it is on the side because
we have seen it how far down towards the bottom of the
bath the crack ran?
KENNETH SMITH
I think (inaudible).
MR COWARD
as a matter of physics once the water level in the bath
gets opposite the bottom of the crack no more water will
run out, will it?
KENNETH SMITH
no.
(Further re-examined by Mr Latham)
MR LATHAM
Thank you, Mr Smith, I would like you to look again at
what we see on the screen. The window at the right hand
end and the dividing partition between the left-hand end
- the Jury have seen photographs of the bathroom - it
would appear to have been stripped out, and the bath runs
the entirety of the length of that wall that covers the
whole wall. If the tap end of the bath is at the right
and if any leak from the bath was either over the last
joist space or the next one along, leakage of water, in
the first instance - if water ran into either that trough,
as it were, or this trough, in order to get to the hole
where the ceiling rose was what would it have to do?
KENNETH SMITH
it would have to travel under the joist.
MR
LATHAM
under the joist - into the next trough where the ceiling
rose was?
KENNETH SMITH
that's correct.
MR LATHAM
now, if there was sufficient water which had flowed out
of any leak in the bath into either of those two troughs
on the right, to flow on through and down into the dining
room, what evidence would would you have expected, in
either of both of those troughs, for the water to have
got right the way over to the hole in the ceiling?
KENNETH SMITH
I would have expected to see more evidence of the plaster
sagging.
MR LATHAM
did you seeing evidence of that?
KENNETH
SMITH
no.
MR LATHAM
indeed, if ceiling floor joists like these get wet because
of a significant leakage, what colour is the water by
the time the water has been against joists like that?
KENNETH SMITH
it can get slightly discoloured but the joists also soak
up some of the water and----
MR LATHAM
did you see any evidence on those joists of having dried
out but having soaked up water?
KENNETH
SMITH
only very, very small evidence on the far right side.
MR LATHAM
I have no other re-examination.
MR JUSTICE
MOSES
thank you very much.
(The witness withdrew)
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