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28/11/03 - Soham Trial Transcript
Friday, 28 November 2003
SKY News
Richard Latham is the chief prosecutor; his colleague
on the prosecution team is Karim Khalil QC. Stephen Coward
QC is Ian Huntley's defence barrrister. Michael Hubbard
QC is Maxine Carr's defence lawyer. Mr Justice Moses is
the judge. Other witnesses and lawyers are introduced
as they appear.
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03
MR LATHAM
my Lord, apart from a series of admissions which we will
need to read out, the only remaining piece of evidence
to place before the Jury is evidence of some taping of
conversations which took place respectively while Maxine
Carr was in custody at Her Majesty's Prison Holloway and
while Ian Huntley was in custody at Her Majesty's Prison
Woodhill. We have transcripts of that taping which is
conversation taking, in the sense, taking part were not
specifically told they were being taped.
My Lord we are going to start with a telephone call which
took place between Mrs Huntley, Linda Huntley, Huntley's
mother and Maxine Carr on 18th October last year. The
Jury are being handed a transcript, they are going to
get three transcripts, two telephone calls and one recorded
visit my Lord.
Those representing Maxine Carr have asked that in relation
to his first call being played, my Lord, we should make
it clear that these transcripts are not transcripts of
everything that was said in both telephone conversations
or indeed the- they were limited to those parts of the
conversation which prosecution and defence agree are the
slightly bit relevant to the Jury. It saves the Jury hearing
or reading large parts of domestic conversation that have
nothing whatsoever to do with the case they are trying.
my Lord, we have it should go in the grey file.
MR JUSTICE MOSES
let's put all these in the files when we have finished.
MR LATHAM
I think it would be better and, we'll have a separate
divider for them to go in at the back behind the interview
transcripts. my Lord once the Jury has looked at the top
of the page, they can see indicated in it is Her Majesty's
Prison, Holloway, the date of the call 18th October, it
is a call from the prison to the landline Transcript edited
by Sky News of Kevin and Linda Nixon/Huntley. what the
Jury is going hear is the first 9 minutes of the tape.
CARR
told me about Ian was there and I couldn't speak to him.
LINDA NIXON
You can't speak to him darling.
CARR
Somewhere in that, I don't know what I'm going to do.
LINDA NIXON
Maxine, none of us is going to know what happened that
night.
CARR
I don't know what, I don't know how to deal with this.
I need Ian.
LINDA NIXON
You know what is going on in our head, its hard for us
all, it really is, I cry every day thinking about this
because I feel we are so confused I don't understand,
I don't understand. You have done nothing Maxine.
CARR
I don't understand why, why this has happened.
LINDA NIXON
We are not going to know. Maxine you know on the Sunday
that you spoke to him.
CARR
Yes.
LINDA NIXON
Did he discuss lying. .
CARR
No, not on the Sunday. On the Monday.
LINDA
NIXON
On the Monday.
CARR
Yes.
LINDA NIXON
the pips are going.
CARR
I will put the phone down and ring again, I will when,
I will have to put it down before I can put it in.
LINDA NIXON
ring me back? I wish I could ring you. ring me back darling.
CARR
all right.
LINDA NIXON
how long were you with the police?
CARR
yesterday morning, came back.
LINDA
NIXON
at the station?
CARR
yes, Paddington Green Station?
LINDA
NIXON
anything else you know, Maxine?
NEW
SPEAKER
I don't know anything else, that's all I know.
LINDA NIXON
not said nothing else to you?
CARR
no, they wanted to asked me questions about further questions
about (inaudible) not speak to them about it. not talk
to them about it, so.
LINDA NIXON
Maxine, what do you think?
CARR
I don't know what to think Linda.
LINDA
NIXON
you said he was so normal.
CARR
he was so normal. Something is wrong.
LINDA
NIXON
Something is very wrong darling. We are not sure but----
CARR
you.
LINDA NIXON
you spoke to him on the Monday, you said he discussed
lying, do you know what time that was?
NEW SPEAKER
in the afternoon, it was 25 past 4.
LINDA
NIXON
25 past?
NEW SPEAKER
that's when he wanted me to come home.
LINDA
NIXON
that Monday afternoon.
CARR
yes he wanted me to come home. He said there were kids
gone missing I said, oh yes, he told me who they were,
I said, he said the thing is Maxine, they came in our
house.
LINDA NIXON
they came in the house?
CARR
yes, they did come in the house. I told the - (inaudible)
told me not to say anything - I'm not allowed. I'm not
allowed to say any more than this.
LINDA
NIXON
this won't go no further than here.
CARR
one of them had a nose bleed apparently and left - that's
what he told me.
LINDA NIXON
I asked him that question and he wouldn't answer it. I
asked him that question "did they come in the house?"
and he would not answer it. One of them had a nose bleed
he told us, I asked him did any of the girls go into the
house and he said I can't remember. funny Maxine, because
I got the distinct impression he could remember.
CARR
I told -- we are not telling, saying anything about that
because they don't think it is wise to tell.
LINDA NIXON
just between the solicitor for now?
NEW SPEAKER
I'm so worried about him, I really am worried about him.
MR LATHAM
that was the first telephone call, in chronological order.
The next thing that happened was her son was in in custody
at Woolfe Hill and we are now going to place before the
Jury part of the conversation covertly taped while the
visit was going on. Members of the Jury we start with
the record whilst at Wood Hill Prison and you can see
those present, it is Ian Huntley and his mother. it is
the 23rd October, five days after the telephone call Mrs
Huntley was engaged in with Maxine Carr that we have just
listened to.
This is a visit which started at 9.32 in the morning and
indeed the visit went on as you can see for the best part
of two hours. As I said we need not trouble you... we
have the start, the prison officer saying "All right,
I'll pick you up later" and Mrs Huntley, Linda says
"Over there right, are you all right?" "yes."
we move on then to the conversation between the two of
them "Huntley 'They want to restart the investigation
because they have got (inaudible) thing. I have seen the
deposition papers, that's the thing with what they found
at the college and supposed tapings of my car and one
fingerprint on a box of chocolates in the house from one
of the girls.
I don't know how the fingerprint on the box of chocolates
came to be there, I really don't. I think that when Maxine
left the school she got cards and boxes of chocolates
from all the children and that's the only reason, the
only way I suspect the fingerprint on the box of chocolates.
I'm going to write to Maxine and say did they send you
a box of chocolates, they did I think they did. she did
get chocolates, lots from the girls. that's that then,
that's that explained because that's the only thing I
could not explain.
I know I have remembered everything about Sunday now.
it is driving me insane it really is. I have remembered
most things about that date, it is the police that need
to know. There is nothing I can do if a doctor says I'm
unfit like yesterday , I was just down yesterday mum,
I don't know why, I couldn't stop it. I knew it was happening
but I couldn't stop it. if you have no idea what that
feels like to have no control over what you do, to be
so scared you find yourself huddled up next to a toilet
on the floor----' at this point he is crying. '----because
that's what I was when I came round.
one minute I was just sat next to my bed or something
and the next minute about two hours later I just found
myself huddled up next to the toilet with sick in the
toilet and me just crying me eyes out in a ball.' 'Oh
Ian.' 'That's why the doctor said I'm unfit to be interviewed
because of things like that. if that is what is happening
then you are not fit to be interviewed, are you? that's
what the doctor said. they can't interview you when you
are in a state. oh, believe me, there's nothing more I
would love - to speak to them - there is so much, so much
I would like to say to them. How can you be sure nothing
happened?
HUNTLEY
I know why they came in the house. I don't know if Maxine
has told you that?
LINDA NIXON
no she didn't, lovey.
HUNTLEY
One of them had a nose bleed. I was on the doorstep, brushing
Sadie.
LINDA NIXON
And did one of them had a nose bleed? you won't have seen
the video on the telly of the girls walking past, none
of them had a nose bleed then?
HUNTLEY
Well I don't, I don't know, I don't know, I can't, I can't
say. They was caught on video before going to the sports
hall or something and from the sports hall that was when
they came past my house. right. so I remember what they
said and everything but I can't say too much.
LINDA NIXON
don't worry about it. don't worry about it, don't worry
about it. as long your solicitor knows what is going on.
HUNTLEY
He hasn't yet, he doesn't, I have rung yesterday and they
are coming this week, either tomorrow or Friday. the lot
of them.
LINDA NIXON
who is coming?
HUNTLEY
all of them. I have told them that I have remembered about
that day.
LINDA NIXON
the barrister everyone?
HUNTLEY
everybody, all of them."
MR KHALIL
then at another point in the conversation Huntley says
HUNTLEY
I asked them if this was recorded in here and they said
no. no. Roy said they had got, they have got you all locked
in and that.
LINDA NIXON
Yes, but Roy seems to think it might be, he says prison
officers wouldn't know, so it would only be the very top
people who knew."
MR KHALIL
Later on in the conversation
HUNTLEY
I haven't done it.
LINDA NIXON
I know it has happened a few times which is the frightening
thing. That's frightening me, Ian.
HUNTLEY
No, I remember them girls leaving my house.
LINDA NIXON
well, if you are adamant on that then.
HUNTLEY
I'm adamant, I'm 100 per cent remembering them girls leaving
my house.
LINDA NIXON
right. but them coming in, that happening, this is just
all too much for anybody to take in.
HUNTLEY
I have been wondering, you know, somebody has perhaps
been following the girls, I don't know if somebody was
following the girls. I said to the police what happened,
there was supposed to be two people watching them when
they were looking into a shop window or something up,
down the High Street. I said what happened to them, that
and a car that was seen.
They came to my house sometime between 20 past and 25
past 6. now I know they left at 25 to 7 because I put
a quiche and a jacket potato on and I had my tea at seven
o'clock. I got a video out that night. I had a video.
I know. Robert Redford that Castle one. I can't remember
the title. I can't even remember the film.
LINDA
NIXON
You told us on the Sunday you got the video. they can
check that with Blockbusters. you told us on Sunday. all
I can think of, yes, is what this is I think this what
is possibly happened yes, I am going to put this to Roy
to see what he thinks. I am wondering if somebody was
following them girls, they have seen them coming to my
house, yes, the girls have left my house, the girls were
seen definitely by four people at either twenty to, or
quarter to 7, that's a good 5 minutes after they left
my house. they was last seen at 25 past 7 by somebody,
I don't know if that's confirmed or not.
LINDA
NIXON
I don't know love. but there was definitely other confirmed
sightings at quarter to seven.
HUNTLEY
They had gone from my house by then yes, I wondered, pity
was following them, yes. they have picked the girls up
they have done whatever was done with them, because they
have seen them go into my house the whole school was searched
and a load of statements, they said they smelt a burning
smelling coming from the college on Monday. that hangar
was not checked until the Tuesday night over the Wednesday
night and that was checked by a police search team.
LINDA NIXON
Go back to that again, what about the shirts, did you
say burning?
HUNTLEY
yes it said- the statement said they smelt a sickly burning
smell coming from the college Monday night.
LINDA NIXON
yes, right.
HUNTLEY
Which would mean then the clothes would have had to have
been in the hangar Monday night. that's right. right,
the police search teams didn't search that hangar until
I think Tuesday or Wednesday night and it was searched
by 8 members of the police. yes. I think it was a Kent
police search unit. their clothes weren't there then.
yes, because Kent police were involved, them clothes weren't
there then, they searched the place. it was a Friday,
they found them clothes I know it was a Friday.
there are two ways into that hangar. if that building
had not been locked from the search team, which I'm gathering
it wasn't, because the keys were in my house, what happened
is why do checks on the night I do a full security check
on Friday night, them gets I remembered opened I couldn't
understand why they were left open all week. yes. It was
an over spill area for the press.
LINDA
NIXON
Oh right.
HUNTLEY
Because the police were around so much the gate... there
is a fire escape route which means there is a gap between
the fence we used to evacuate children on to the playing
fields. he could have also gone in through there and if
that hangar was opened then. that's it, yes. yes, now
they said they found some of my- said they found some
of my hairs on the clothing.
LINDA NIXON
Oh that's what Wayne has come out with this morning to
me. I said you have what? they had taken a sample of Wayne's
hair. they said it is the same make up but they are not
certain if it is the same DNA or not. So they are not
sure if they have a match. If it is I have already said
to Roy I put the bag and everything in there now. I had
to lean over to put the blue bag in. would the hair fall
down? yes, you know what I'm like, constantly going like
this. yes, you do. I mean, look that's how I believe and
what I remember doing is the hangar open and the two bins
outside I explained all that to you.
LINDA
NIXON
Yes?
HUNTLEY
; Went back to the keys cupboard, got the keys out yes,
locked the door, there is so much hassle to go in there,
knocked the alarms off, you have to. you have to go through
office, back out, put all alarms on, lock-up. I just took
the keys home.
LINDA NIXON
You took the keys back with you? that's what your dad
said - he has done that.
HUNTLEY
Yes, and because the school, because the school is shut
down.
LINDA NIXON
Yes.
HUNTLEY
We don't have any use for that building so I have not
had any, didn't remember to take the keys back. them keys
would have been found on my, the white chest of drawers
in the bedroom.
LINDA NIXON
this is how you should be talking, this is so important,
Ian.
HUNTLEY
I know, why do you think I get so wound up, upset and
frustrated? I can't talk to the police because the doctors
deem me not fit to. I know if I can talk to the police,
me and Maxine can be out of here. the only thing I can't
answer for, the car, my boot, my carpet was done yes,
because I got the brush for Sadie in there to brush her
down, because if I'm going to take her out the Saturday
to the shop, and the girls sat on the edge of the boot
but didn't actually go in the boot, they are claiming
to have found fibres from the Manchester United tops in
the boot. I don't know if it is possible for bits to blow
off or no.
LINDA NIXON
So your car boot was up?
HUNTLEY
Yesterday it was up and the girls sat on the edge of the
boot. yes. because I went into the house and got tissues
for her nose, but it didn't stop bleeding, that was when
I said come in. I went to get some cold water. Maxine
weren't there so I come out. Apart from that, you have
seen the size of my flaming boot.
LINDA
NIXON
Yes I know.
HUNTLEY
I couldn't fit too bloody girls in my boot , I can hardly
fit 6 shopping bags in my boot.
LINDA
NIXON
I said to your dad what is annoying is the fact you have
them houses there but nobody saw anything.
HUNTLEY
Well, they won't.
LINDA NIXON
Saw them walking off or....
HUNTLEY
right, that's the annoying bit isn't it.
LINDA
NIXON
Um yes, because you have got them houses (inaudible) of
it then you have got all them houses down there. that's
what I said to your dad. The next time they were seen
I think was at the memorial.
HUNTLEY
right.
LINDA NIXON
don't you tell Wayne any of this.
HUNTLEY
I won't on my mother's life. because I tell you what -
never mind. no, listen to me - it should come from Wayne
to the police rather than me, it's just hammering nails
in my coffin.
LINDA NIXON
I know. right. now then, there was one night that Maxine
said you left the house?
HUNTLEY
yes.
LINDA NIXON
not to go to your mum's - there was another night.
HUNTLEY
When I went to my nana's, eh? when I went to nan's.
LINDA NIXON
Yes, not that night - there was another night.
HUNTLEY
right. she went to bed.
LINDA NIXON
Right. that was the night I was with the police officer
who came round to the house and I saw him, this is where
his statement has come from. where was you - with him?
HUNTLEY
in the house.
LINDA NIXON
You said you left the house?
HUNTLEY
yes, I did. yes. just to go round the school and that.
LINDA NIXON
Oh,and you brought this guy?
HUNTLEY
yes.
LINDA NIXON
Oh right.
HUNTLEY
I left the house about midnight, I couldn't speak.
LINDA NIXON
can you remember what night that was? But it will be on
his statement.
HUNTLEY
I was walking on the tennis courts and the police car
came up on the tennis courts with spot lights on.
LINDA NIXON
oh I see. yes, yes.
HUNTLEY
and I said, "Is everything all right over there at
the other end", and he said, "yes" and
I said, "Well, I checked this end" and I said,
"Do you fancy coming in for a cuppa and a smoke?"
and he said "Love to, mate" and we sat there
for a good hour chatting. that's what you get then for
being kind, isn't it?
LINDA NIXON
You making inquiries about them?
HUNTLEY
I think now apparently he said, he has been saying I was
inquiring about DNA and everything. I was saying to him
strange it was that they found absolutely bugger-all after
about a week, so it must have been into the second week,
after all this time they still found nothing I find very
strange. We went on about other cases. I said, "How
did you manage to find them?" later on in the conversation.
LINDA NIXON
I don't know how we are going to get it put straight Ian.
I wish there was something me and your dad could do, I
really do not know. We are so completely helpless.
HUNTLEY
All I can do is just pray it gets put right. apart from
that all I can do is pray to be patient, get back to my
old self and sit down in front of the police officers
without shutting down. And being able to say my piece
that's what need to happen. That's the most infuriating
thing if I had not the been doing all this shutting down
malarky, I wouldn't have been put here in the first place.
They would have seen from the very start I haven't done
anything wrong." . Later on he asks is Wayne outside.
There is Wayne there. Don't say anything to dad. nothing.
You have my word on this, Ian.
HUNTLEY
What I need, I need to explain something to you, to you.
the reason is very important, this doesn't come from Wayne,
right, because it will give the police time to counteract
everything I'm going to say and help them build a prosecution
against me. In fact it will help put Maxine prison if
Wayne's goes to the police with what I have told you.
It will help to put me in prison because it means they
will be prepared for it and they will be coming up with,
because at the moment, they don't know anything, yes,
they don't know anything. They don't know. Haven't haven't
got a clue what I'm going say to them in front of Wayne.
Just say to me dad, you know, he is all right, he just
can't remember anything still. Because of that night you
came to the house.
LINDA NIXON
Yes, as far as I was concerned that's the last time I
was going to see you all. I could tell them by your face.
HUNTLEY
Yes.
LINDA NIXON
Your body was in total shock. that's why it shut down
and still keeps shutting down every now and again.
HUNTLEY
It is getting better though, its getting better. I mean
that's the first, I think its only the second or third
time I have shut down since I have been here so that's
good. that's what I mean.
LINDA NIXON
It it happens do you know how its happening.
HUNTLEY
All I know is when I'm feeling, I'm down I'm not capable
of doing anything so if what you are thinking is its possible
for me to shut down and hurt somebody, I'm thinking, I
am - no (inaudible) it has gone through my head because
when I shut down I don't move. I'm just there staring
blankly at a wall or something. then later, his mother
says
LINDA NIXON
I mean like its like I said to your dad, as well, look
at the size of you, its not like you are a strapping six
foot bloody 15 stone guy. (inaudible)
HUNTLEY
No, but mum I mean I was 12 stone 2. I was fit because
of the job I did.
LINDA NIXON
Yes
HUNTLEY
So that won't stand up for anything because I did have
a lot of strength because of all the work I did. however
, I don't think I'm strong enough to restrain two screaming
kids, specially without somebody hearing some thing.
LINDA NIXON
Well then I would have have thought so Ian.
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