Other Miscellaneous Legal Witness

16.0 OTHER MISCELLANEOUS LEGAL WITNESS

16.1 POLLY GLEDHILL

In March 2001 Ms GLEDHILL was working as a solicitor for a company called Dent Abrams in Southampton. On the 23rd of March 2001, Geoffrey COUZENS went to her firm and asked her if she would witness him sign a 'statement' concerning matters which occurred whilst he was under the Police Witness Protection Programme. She states:

"He signed the three page statement in front of me and I also signed the statement stating that I had witnessed him sign the statement. Police officers from Hertfordshire Constabulary have shown me a three-page statement and I can confirm that this was the statement I witnessed Geoffrey COUZENS signing....

.....until he came into the firm on the 23rd of March 2001, I had never seen Geoffrey COUZENS before."

17.0 DARREN NICHOLLS

17.1 INTERVIEW 24™ FEBRUARY 2004

On 24th February 2004, Darren NICHOLLS was arrested and interviewed under caution. The full transcript of his interview is appended. However, the main aspects of his interview were as follows:"BLANKED OUT"

17.1a At the commencement of the interview his legal representative read out the following pre prepared statement;

"....Mr NICHOLLS would wish to state that all of the evidence he gave to the Police in interview and subsequently at the trial for murder of Mr WHOMES and Mr STEELE was true. He gave that evidence under oath. He did not wish to change any, alter or amend any of that evidence. And he doesn't wish to repeat that evidence in interview at this stage especially bearing in mind that nearly eight years have passed since the trial took place. He would also like to state that the evidence that he gave at the trial was in no way influenced, affected or distorted by any dealings that he had with the media including Tony THOMPSON. He accepts that he did have dealings with the media but these were all lawful and did not influence that evidence that he gave....."

17.1b MEDIA

Following the pre-prepared statement, NICHOLLS unexpectedly then went on to answer the interviewing officers questions.

•    When asked about his initial contact with THOMPSON he stated: "When I was arrested and like obviously I was locked up and spent a lot of time on me own like it seemed to be that everyone had something like this happened to was like selling their stories and things and I thought well I know that I'm gonna get like fuck all from the Police and I know that I've, I had fuck all in life and I knew that .... I figured that well. When they're convicted perhaps......you know I can make some money out of it.

That's probably not a good thing to do but....em.... I had nothing to lose, I had nothing in life in the first place so I figured why not. You know I mean you're always reading about people that get stupid sums of money for, for nothing for that sort of thing and I thought well what was wrong with me doing that."

•    When asked about how he first contacted THOMPSON he stated "by telephone".

•    When asked when he had contacted THOMPSON he stated: "It wouldn't have been that long after [my] arrest. It probably would've been within a couple of months."

•    When asked ".....Had you completed making your evidential statements prior to contacting Tony THOMPSON?" NICHOLLS relied: "By a long time yeah."

•    When asked "had all [your statements] been given to the Police before you even spoke to Tony THOMPSON on the phone" He replied "yes" and then "I know it was after because until the statements were finished and the Police had finished with me I was kept safely and securely you know.....locked away as it were. I wasn't allowed near a telephone or anything unless it was to ring my wife or something."

•    When asked whether monies were ever discussed with THOMPSON he replied "No it was only, I suppose the only thing ever mentioned was you know you....you get money via the amount of books sold as opposed to you get money without selling any books, you sell books you get so much per book. And then you know if you sell a million books you get a million so many pence's".

•    In respect of monies received "up front" he stated that after he came out of prison (on to the Witness Protection Programme) he received some cash from THOMPSON but was unsure as to how much exactly it was. He stated

that it could have been "as low as £800 or as high as £2000". The cash was paid before the trial.

•    When asked if he knew when THOMPSON had started to write the book he replied: "....he said he would wait until the outcome of the trial before the book was written. So I think he just had notes....." He also stated that he had very little contact with THOMPSON before the trial.

•    When asked if any of the evidence he gave to the police was not the truth or was embellished because he had in the back of his mind the possibility of writing a book in the future, he replied "no, not at all....I'm very certain of that. It was never entered my mind until I'd completely finished

giving statements by a long time [sic].....but no it never crossed my mind about it until....you read it in the newspaper that people like wow they get paid for this and then I thought oh perhaps I can earn some money out of it perhaps it's not like all doom and gloom you know."

•    He initially stated that he has no recollection of signing any documents but later in the interview, whilst talking about the television programme, he confirmed that he had signed " a few things but I'm not sure what I've signed at what point". He had difficulty in remembering how much his fee would have been for the television programme but he believes it would have been in the region of £10,000. He confirmed that he did not receive any fee from them because of his later court action, when he prevented the programme being transmitted.

•    In respect of any monies received later from THOMPSON, he stated that he received what he believed was another £2000 in cash. He was not sure but he believes these were the only fees he received from THOMPSON but also said "ask Tony, no doubt ....he probably knows a lot more than me or he's made more recollection than me [sic]."

•    In respect of his visitors in police custody, he states that he has very little recollection of the arrangements. He confirmed that he may have initially told the Witness Protection Officers who he would like to visit him but most of his subsequent visits were arranged with the Custody Officers.

•    In respect of THOMPSON visiting him in prison he states "I don't know. I don't think he did. I think he had every intention to come in but I don't know if he actually came in.... I can't remember, sorry:"

•    He confirmed that no police officers initially knew that he had contacted THOMPSON or assisted or encouraged him with his dealings with the media.

•    He also confirms that no prison officers were aware that NICHOLLS visitor, THOMPSON, was a journalist.

•    When asked when he did tell the police about his dealing with THOMPSON, he initially said that it was before the trial of STEELE and WHOMES, when two of his Witness Protection officers (who he could not name) came to his house. However, later in the interview he stated that it could have been "after the trial". He stated that when he did tell them it was in respect of the possibility of a book being written. When asked what they said, he stated: "There was no problem. There was nobody goes oh you shouldn't do that. I remember there was no problem.... There was no like you shouldn't do that".

•    He stated that he was 99% certain that there were no police officers present during any of THOMPSON'S visits. Most of his visits "came at night when the police had gone home..." I didn't have visitors when they were there because I had [the Witness Protection Officers] to talk to."

•    When asked if there was any other way he considered telling his story he replied "Tony made loads of suggestions about things and I basically said if, you know,

id we can earn some fine you know......I left a lot of it to Tony" He then went on give details of the making of the television programme. When asked when the idea of a television programme was conceived before or after the trial he replied "Got no idea. Probably before. I don't know, no its not really fair cos I don't know I've got no idea when I signed the contract".

•    When asked about what he had to do in preparation for the television programme he said "Write, I wrote a lot of things down to try and remember. I think I was asked actually like video myself as well which was quite funny. To try and....so you could remember things, if you thought of something then.....like write it down or you know make a copy, make a note of it so you could.....because the problem you know things flash in and out, or in my case they can enter your mind and then next minute you can't remember what it was."

•    When asked about the video diary he confirmed that THOMPSON had given him the video camera and in respect of the footage he stated: "He [THOMPSON]

confirmed that he thought it would be a good idea if I tried this and I thought okay that'll you know, I'll try that. So I'd speak at what I felt which probably was a bit better than me writing down I feel shit. Cos it's not really very helpful to Tony you know. So..... so I don't, I did do it but I don't recall....why. I know why I did it I did it so that I knew what I was thinking when I'd come back from giving evidence.....I think you know like how....well it was anything. It whatever you thought when you come back you know like.... I've got no idea what they're on, I've got no idea to be honest. Unless I was, I'd probably look and laugh now.[sic]"

17.1c FABRICATED STORY

PROTECTED WITNESSES 17.1d MIKE

•    He gives details of 'Mike' and that he was "a tosspot like just mouthy all the time". He then goes on to give details of another Protected Witness called "Troy" hitting Mike.

He states "....he spanked the annoying one.....that I didn't like that was tall and skinny.....because I was a witness I was on the computer when he hit him but I wasn't looking at the computer screen and all I saw was blood on me T-shirt where somewhere had hit him so I couldn't say for certain....that was the annoying one because I was quite pleased he got punched because I thought that'll shut him up for a couple of hours."

•    When asked about Mike's allegation that he remembers NICHOLLS telling him that he was going to write a book and a film and that during NICHOLLS' interviews the Police Officers were helping him in by handing him a script or notes during the interview he replied " well I mean obviously that's total bollocks. I mean I didn't like the bloke and I've never particularly spoken to him ever. I didn't like him because he was just one of those people you'd look at and think I don't like him and I didn't like him."

•    When asked if the interviewing officers had ever supplied him with "bits of paper to assist him with his answers" he replied "of course they never. I mean if you implied that you'd have to imply my barrister and my solicitor, everyone was you know sitting there and watching this......total rubbish.....I'm saying it never happened."

When asked why Mike would say such things if they are not true he replied "I've got no idea." When asked if he ever done anything to upset him he replied "probably when I didn't notice him get punched in the face, that wouldn't have gone down the best would it?...he took me in a witness to say that I saw him punched and I said I did not see him punched....which I didn't.. I turned around and there was someone standing there who obviously punched him but I didn't see him punched so how can I say he definitely did it? [sic]"

17.1e DAMON

•    In respect of the allegations (made by Damon) that NICHOLLS had told Damon that he could make about £25,000 from a newspaper story and more from a television programme, and that he had a friend, a reporter, working for Time Out Magazine he said ".....I probably did say those things but I don't know about exactly what was said and amounts but Damon was the main person I did you know, [sic]"

•    In respect of THOMPSON visiting prison he stated:"... I can't remember and then there's no reason to say Tony didn't visit, I'm sure it's on record somewhere if he visited."

•    When asked about Damon's allegation that NICHOLLS told him THOMPSON had smuggled a video camera into custody he states "I don't know how much common

knowledge it is.....I've no idea like I'm pretty sure I had the video recorder ....obviously I got it from Tony...Tony gave it to me I'm pretty sure I had it in my bag ....you know".

•    However, he did confirm that he had spoken to Damon after they were both released from prison and there is a

possibility that "he's relating backwards and......he's got it in the wrong order..."

17.1f GEOFF

•    In respect of Geoff's allegations that he believed NICHOLLS knew what was going to happen prior to the murders he states "I've always said to people that I always felt after the event that I knew what was going on...and how could I fucking not know what was going on you know... so I always felt a bit sort of part of me said you prat you obviously knew what was going on I mean how could you not know but I didn't because I wouldn't have fucking been there I would've drove in the opposite direction...so but I think I've even said, I've said that to a lot of people you know and I thought after it'd happened I thought fuck how could I not know that but before it happened I...in my mind it doesn't really cross your mind that he's just about to go and kill them....."

•    In respect of the allegation that when he came back to prison following his visits to police premises he had changed his account to say that he had taken two people as opposed to one to the scene of the murders he replied "well if that was so I would've made a statement ....if I'd changed my account. No of course I haven't - sorry no recollection of that."

•    In respect of the allegation that NICHOLLS had indicated that it was important that his evidence matched the mobile phone cell site locations he replied "he's obviously a clever bloke but he's saying things that are like the Press are continuously saying, you know like they say oh the phone couldn't work at the scene of the murder, fine but the phone worked twenty foot further up the road...and I told that story and when they checked they proved it to be true so I mean...and that's what I know, that's the main thing all the Press keep going on about you know, he couldn't have made a phone call from where they were killed but I never said he did, i don't know where he was when he made the call."

•    When asked about Geoff's allegation that NICHOLLS had told him that during '"tea breaks" in his interviews he had engaged in off tape discussions to "iron out discrepancies", NICHOLLS stated that apart from the first few interviews he had a solicitor present at all times -"Every time I ever got seen in any capacity like .... anything to do with statements or anything I always had a Solicitor every time, always, always. In fact if I said I've got to say something they'd say write it on a bit of paper or something and then we don't want to talk to you we'll have to get your Solicitor back again so it was like you know......so they were very good like that they went the other way they made sure I always had a Solicitor so no what this is saying is wrong." He confirmed that during the trial these aspects ie coercion were examined at great length by the Defence and were also reported in depth by the press.

•    When asked about the allegation that he had told Geoff that it had been suggested by the police that he should admit to offences in relation to a higher class of drugs (than he was really in possession of) NICHOLLS stated that they had never at any time asked him to do so and "Why would I do that. That'd be too obvious to prove otherwise"

•    NICHOLLS was also asked about Geoff's allegation that he (NICHOLLS) told him that the police had asked him to alter the date that he purchased the shotgun from the "traveller" who had called at his home address. He denied the allegation saying: "how could they. I mean if I knew the date, I don't know the date now I don't know if I knew then but how could they because I'd done my statements.

•    In relation to Geoff s allegation that NICHOLLS had told him that the police had "waved a blank cheque in his face" he stated "Well the police ...always told me that you'll get nothing.... All you'll get is relocated, we'll help you get ....a council house or somewhere to live and we'll give you an identity, that's as far as it goes....I mean that is in this case very true."

•    When asked why Geoff would make these allegations he said "I don't know why he's doing this perhaps he's got his own little book coming out and if he happened to make them get out of prison that'd probably sell a lot of copies....he seems to have a really good memory for someone for such a long time ago...all this stuff is available to anyone that buys a book or reads or looks on the Internet and apparently every single word I've ever said is on the internet"

•    NICHOLLS then made comment about Geoff s motive and the fact that there may be some connection or 'overlap' between Geoff who was a drug manufacturer (and who is also around the same age as STEELE) and STEELE and WHOMES who were engaged in similar criminal activities. However he confirmed that he had no specific knowledge of such a connection.

17.1g FREE

•    When asked about Free's allegation that NICHOLLS had told him that he was going to sell his story to the media and that he had "made up his story about the shootings" he replied "Well that's rubbish.....sorry I can't help you I don't even remember someone called Free".

17.1h OTHER POINTS COVERED IN INTERVIEW

•    NICHOLLS was asked if he had told Dc BIRD about his involvement in the murders. NICHOLLS stated that he had given BIRD information that he made to look like rumour i.e. a "third party story as if I'd overheard it...." The account given did not in any way include his involvement in the murders."

•    NICHOLLS was asked about the evidence given by THOMPSON regarding NICHOLLS telling him that Francis READ knew the full reason for their trip to Holland i.e. to import drugs to Britain and thus that it was not the

case,(as indicated by NICHOLLS in his evidence), that READ thought they were merely going for a duty free trip. In reply NICHOLLS stated that "Tony has got his conclusion from his conclusion so but you know I've never told Tony that he was involved. In fact they pulled me apart about it in court....I will maintain completely that he was not involved." When asked if READ had "an idea"

NICHOLLS stated ".....I think it's the same old thing after the event. Did he have an idea? So its only fair of me to maintain the course that he didn't and if he would care to tell you he did that's up to him. He might have said afterwards "I had an idea" but fuck what could I do? But I never told him.....No I never lied in the witness box. Tony must've misinterpreted - we had had the conversation where Tony has actually said to me 'go on he knew' and I've laughed and said 'look Tony he didn't know' but someone can take something as you probably think he knew and that's your opinion and you know my side has been tested in court......"

At the end of the interview in a overall 'summing up', NICHOLLS emphasised the following points :

•    He did not lie in court (he said earlier in his interview -"I've stood there for five weeks having these people call me the biggest lyingist [sic] bastard in the whole world for weeks and weeks and weeks and they went through paperwork like a foot thick and at the end of it they couldn't make me out to be a liar because I wasn't telling lies because you know well they didn't make me out to be a liar."

•    He did not conspire with the police, or anybody else, in any way to lie about the murders.

•    The receipt or promise of money did not influence his version of events in relation to the murders.

•    There was no 'deal struck' with the police giving him immunity from prosecution.

•    The police did not try and persuade him to tell any lies in relation to the Rettendon murders.

17.2 INTERVIEW 11th MAY 2004

•    In this second interview, NICHOLLS was first asked why he had changed his solicitor following his first few interviews (after his arrest). He stated: "I was told by the police that they didn't feel that the firm......representing me were adequate for when the fact that I wanted to confess......I can't recall why, I don't know if it was an overlap ie they were representing the others as well. I spoke to a policeman in the cells on my own I don't know who he was, he was like in charge of the police station so I suppose he was quite high up....and he said that it'd be better if I changed solicitors". NICHOLLS then went into more detail regarding the possible "overlap" of solicitors.

•    He was also confirmed that at the time of his arrest he was not aware of the existence of 'cell site' technology in respect of mobile telephones.

•    He also confirmed that at no time whilst he was in custody, did anybody tell him that WHOMES and STEELE were making threats against him. He stated that he worked out for himself, that following their arrest STEELE and WHOMES would know it was NICHOLLS arrest and detention that had led to their subsequent arrest and there was "no way" he wanted to get remanded to the same prison as them. It was at that point that he decided to turn Queens Evidence.

•    When asked about a Sunday People newspaper article entitled "I'm a dead man" and quotes within it (attributed to NICHOLLS) relating to the murder namely "....I knew something awful was going to happen..." NICHOLLS confirmed that he had never spoken to the author of the article Stuart QUALTROUGH and was "pretty sure" that he had not given an interview with any other journalist apart from Tony THOMPSON.